Author Topic: Carroll - A sensible discussion.  (Read 149733 times)

Offline TOMMO86

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #160 on: April 2, 2012, 09:31:20 am »
Wasn't his fault this happened.

DC "Think we can get Andy Carroll, Ashley trying to offload before the window shuts, Fancy it?"

KD "He's a good player so yer why not"


All done within the space of a week. No scouting of him what so ever.

Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #161 on: April 2, 2012, 09:32:44 am »
I believe he tripped


It was a dive.

I'm one of the lads biggest supporters and I'll back him to the hilt (getting hard to do so now like,) but it was 100% a dive.

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #162 on: April 2, 2012, 09:34:01 am »
It was a dive.

I'm one of the lads biggest supporters and I'll back him to the hilt (getting hard to do so now like,) but it was 100% a dive.

regardless, he could have simply put the ball at the back of the net, instead of trying to be too clever.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #163 on: April 2, 2012, 09:34:12 am »
Wasn't his fault this happened.

DC "Think we can get Andy Carroll, Ashley trying to offload before the window shuts, Fancy it?"

KD "He's a good player so yer why not"


All done within the space of a week. No scouting of him what so ever.

I thought the initial plan was to go for him in the summer
Would that not indicate that we were scouting him ?

Offline LiamG

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #164 on: April 2, 2012, 09:35:24 am »
I actually thought in the lead up to his dive, the Carroll play was brilliant...he won the aerial duel, regained the ball himself, beat a man and sped into the box and rounded the keeper woderfully...pretty sad he then dived instead of hitting the ball in the net - sums up the season.
and its a shame he is going to be remembered for a stupid dive rather than the good lead up to it!

Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #165 on: April 2, 2012, 09:35:29 am »
regardless, he could have simply put the ball at the back of the net, instead of trying to be too clever.

Aye.

Think that proves just how confident he is at the moment that he'd rather give someone else the responsibility of scoring from a pen than going for goal himself and possibly missing.

He couldn't handle the geordie lot giving him stick yesterday IMO.

Wasn't his fault this happened.

DC "Think we can get Andy Carroll, Ashley trying to offload before the window shuts, Fancy it?"

KD "He's a good player so yer why not"


All done within the space of a week. No scouting of him what so ever.

Considering Rafa was scouting him, I'd say there was a bit of it done.

Offline cornelius

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #166 on: April 2, 2012, 09:37:08 am »
Rightly or wrongly he's become an albatross around Kenny's neck. Pointing fingers and laying blame will not help or change things one iota. How we deal with it is all that matters.

Offline Didi_ram

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #167 on: April 2, 2012, 09:39:18 am »
who exactly are we gonna sign?
Look around,there are players who score for fun and are relatively unknowns.And available for low prices.
Just look at Burak Yilmaz of Trabzonspor fro example.
WE wont get top class,so be it.Newcastle and even Arsenal show that top class isnt necessary for functioning.It is the player who will fit in to the club most that matters.How many of us thought that Jose Enrique was our first choice LB preference in the summer?Yet he came for peanuts,and does a job.

Offline red_til_i_die

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #168 on: April 2, 2012, 09:40:36 am »
Personally and i think most people will probably disagree with me here but i think the way Newcastle fans treated him yesterday could possibly the biggest kick up the arse the lad could need.

He's a geordie boy and he loves Newcastle. It's his home town club and think he misses it and hasn't fully settled because he's probably been thinking it's not happening here and Newcastle might take him back in the summer.

I think the reaction he got from there fans will click something in his head as his home town fans really laid into him. It could possibly be the thing that he needs to snap him out of that line of thinking because now Kenny should be hammering home to him "look your home town fans hate you and aren't missing you and don't want you back. They think your shit, a waste of money and there glad to be rid of you and you have to prove them wrong and the only way of doing that is by putting in the performances here"
« Last Edit: April 2, 2012, 09:42:20 am by red_til_i_die »
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Offline redforlife

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #169 on: April 2, 2012, 09:40:59 am »
That dive yesterday pretty much sums up Andy Carroll and where he is mentally and confidence wise. I'm not having it that he slipped, he was round the keeper with an open goal on his weaker foot and he didn't fancy his chances, he bottled it.

He was scared of missing an open goal in front of fans who were booing him and he shit himself. And that's despite him doing fantastic to get in that position

Before yesterday, I've always thought there's a chance he'll come good. Well, more than good really, I've always felt if something clicks he could be unstoppable. But really I've just been clinging on to false hope, his head is fucked up and it's going to take a monumental effort in the summer to get him in a state where he can make a positive contribution next season.

And that's if Kenny and staff can even be arsed, they too might be thinking enough is enough and off you go.
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #170 on: April 2, 2012, 09:41:59 am »
I believe he tripped

I believe you’re trippin.

He had an opportunity to show his home team that he was worth the 35m they got for him or that he could cheat them out of a goal by taking a dive.

If Michael Owen had of done that at Anfield you would have seen any of the remaining support for him amongst our supporters evaporate.
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Offline Carlos Valderama

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #171 on: April 2, 2012, 09:42:25 am »
Kenny has said many times that we bought Carroll for the length of his contract, not just the here and now, so i strongly believe we won't be getting rid of him any time soon. However i think it's clear he's lacking confidence and i don't think this has been helped by being dropped after a good performance, which has happened a few times this season. I, like many others, have been waiting for him to find his form this season, truly believing it will come (like it did with Crouch), but in the last few weeks the reality has dawned on me that it's not going to happen for him this season. I would buy another striker this summer but keep Carroll, and hope his response is to be more determined than ever to improve and show that he is worthy of the number 9 shirt he has.
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Offline RedPat

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #172 on: April 2, 2012, 09:48:05 am »
Can we have a sensible discussion about Carroll without a thread getting locked?  That means not calling him a horse or hurling insults at him, which can happen on these Carroll threads, which all get locked.

We have to discuss this guy, as he is our main centre forward and we can't score goals.

Now I don't really care about his attitude, what he did when he came off the field today vs Newcastle, his dive, that he left Anfield early after the Swansea game to go to watch a firework display in Newcastle (according to Dave Usher), what his ex agent said about him etc.

All the above would be tolerated if he was performing on the pitch and in my opinion he has been extremely disappointing.

I also don't care how much he cost, that is not his fault the fee and it doesn't matter if a player cost £1 million or £35 million, you get judged on performances not your price tag.  It is just a shame he did cost the latter.

Now I have read on here and other forums that some people think Carroll isn't trying.  I think that is rubbish, he is clearly trying to be a success here, he is working hard on the field in my opinion.  He also cares and he showed that when he came off the field today and stormed down the tunnel, he was disappointed and you don't get that reaction if you don't care.

My issue with Carroll is ability, which I think is lacking.  I just don't think he is good enough to be our number 9, as we are used to having players like Aldridge, Rush, Fowler, Owen and Torres - world class strikers who scored goals for fun.  I don't think Carroll is anywhere near these guys or ever will be and that is what we need.  Now I don't expect every player to be in the league of those names I mentioned, but I do think that our number 9 has to be a threat and I don't think Carroll has been since he arrived 14+ months ago. 

What do I mean by threat?  Well he can't beat opposition players with pace or skill really.  He has not been the beast we hoped he would be in the air or dominating centre backs physically.  I think his holding up of the ball is decent, but no better than Heskey, Kenwyne Jones, Davies, Crouch etc. just average like all big strikers in the league.  He doesn't really have vision or is a creative player, infact his ability in possession with the football is limited and below average IMO.  Give him some time and space he has a good left foot, but how often do you get time and space in the Premiership? Not often unless you create your own space or chances like Suarez does for example and Carroll can't do that. 

Now all the above wouldn't matter if he was finishing the chances he got when he did get the right service but he hasn't and his finishing hasn't been impressive.  Especially his heading towards goal, which is mean to be his strength.  What is more worrying is he is not always inside the box when we do get the ball wide, if you aren't a very good footballer in possession and have a raw game then at least get in the box and be in the right place - but I don't think he has natural instinct to be in the right place, notibly the six yard box.

I also don't see any link up with Suarez, I don't think they suit each other at all.  The only time they have linked is when Carroll wins a flick on and Suarez reads it.  I think Suarez wants to play one / two's and have movement around him where he can create chances for others and have someone who can feed him when he makes a run for example and Carroll is not that type of player. 

I feel sorry for Carroll, as I don't think we suit his style at all.  He is clearly a player suited to direct football, not the passing and moving brand we try and play.  He is never going to be a pass and move player.  If you want to get the best out of Carroll you need to be direct.  Now we can't adjust our style just to suit Carroll and if he can't adjust his style to suit us, surely it is wrong player at the wrong club isn't it?

I honestly don't see why we should keep him, as I don't see him improving giving we won't be changing our style of football to suit one player.  Therefore how is he going to appreciate in value?  Also shouldn't we be looking to have the right players here who will link up with Suarez, suit our passing / moving game and ultimately be the clinical striker we crave.

I don't mind mistakes in the transfer market they happen, but what would annoy me is keeping hold of mistakes and I think that is what Carroll has been.  I know we all like to show support our players and give them time (which Carroll has had IMO), but I don't see what good it is not discussing Carroll given we are short of goals or keeping hold of a player who in my opinion just hasn't cut the mustard.

Is there anyone who would serious keep this guy here next season?  As other than being a plan b (and a non threatening one at that), I don't see what he will offer us or good it will do keeping him at the club.   
How can you not really care about his attitude and fee Zeus,he has being one of the biggest transfer flops of all time,and I am sick of him.
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Offline Junkle

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #173 on: April 2, 2012, 09:48:44 am »
Give me Ngog anytime over Carrol. How can we even start comparing the purch value of 1.9 vs 35 mil pounds and get 8 goals or so per year from either and say they are comparable. At the same age for that matter.
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Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #174 on: April 2, 2012, 09:49:33 am »
How can you not really care about his attitude and fee Zeus,he has being one of the biggest transfer flops of all time,and I am sick of him.

How the fuck is the fee THE CLUB paid for him his fault?

His attitude is very questionable, but the fee is down to the club, not Carroll so leave that out eh? He was never a £35m striker even at Newcastle.

Offline cornelius

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #175 on: April 2, 2012, 09:52:32 am »
Kenny has said many times that we bought Carroll for the length of his contract, not just the here and now
What else can he say? He's hardly going to come out and say we'll get shot if things don't improve.

Offline TOMMO86

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #176 on: April 2, 2012, 09:55:42 am »
Aye.

Think that proves just how confident he is at the moment that he'd rather give someone else the responsibility of scoring from a pen than going for goal himself and possibly missing.

He couldn't handle the geordie lot giving him stick yesterday IMO.

Considering Rafa was scouting him, I'd say there was a bit of it done.

And Rafa left and with that his head scout who controlled his scout network. Its not a game of lends your notes and reports.

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #177 on: April 2, 2012, 09:56:31 am »
I think the whole situation has been handled appallingly. A masterclass in poor man-management, and considering he probably wasn't too arsed about coming here in the first place, that's only going to end one way.

Offline J-Mc-

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #178 on: April 2, 2012, 09:58:31 am »
And Rafa left and with that his head scout who controlled his scout network. Its not a game of lends your notes and reports.

Kenny was at the club when Rafa was here, not hard to assume that he and Rafa probably had a few words about targets.

There would have been something there about Carroll.

Offline Pope Dave

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #179 on: April 2, 2012, 09:58:59 am »
I actually like Andy Carroll. I want him to succeed here because I think he brings a lot to the game and a lot to Liverpool. He reminds me of John Toshack, on the field and off it. Toshack had no finesse, he had no guile. He stayed on his feet, made himself available, and scared the shit out of opposition defenders. But he had a Keegan. Carroll was at his best when Suarez was out. He had a nice understanding with Kuyt, who has much more in common with that old-fashioned guileless play than Suarez does. I simply don’t think that Carroll and Suarez will ever play to each other’s strengths. Carroll needs to stay on his feet – he’ll learn that. I’m glad he was pissed off at being subbed yesterday. But I want to see him throwing his arms in the air less. I don’t want to see him sitting on his arse in the box anymore, full of indignation and railing against the world. I want him to grow up. He’s got time to do that. Controversially, if it came down to a choice between selling Suarez and selling Carroll, I’d sell Suarez. He’s a great player, but we don’t do half as well with him on the pitch. There are plenty of examples of that happening in football clubs (Lineker at Everton?). He was bought to partner Torres, which made sense at the time. Torres and Suarez ahead of Gerrard – didn’t that sound delicious? But we never had it and the plan was radically altered. Given such a change, we should have pulled out of the Suarez purchase – if there were errors during that transfer window, yes it was paying too much for Carroll, but more than that it was continuing with the purchase of a player intended for a different attacking line and a different management. I like the little fella a lot. He's a wonder to watch. But Suarez is a finesse player who doesn’t gel with our set-up, Carroll is a Toshack who seems much more likely. They’re not ever going to fit together. That’s not their fault. But Carroll has a lot to bring in time. He needs patience, and he needs a Keegan.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #180 on: April 2, 2012, 09:59:40 am »
I think he just doesn't have much intelligence. You just don't dive there, ever. When that happens his game completely changed and he was always gonna struggle. He does so well chasing his own flick on, showing a burst of speed to get on the end of it puts it past the defender and then dives, he didn't lose his footing, he dived.

There was another instance where Suarez got to the byline, he chipped it back across, only bellamy in the box, where is Carroll, stood outside the box!!! I mean c'mon...

He doesn't help himself.

Deadly serious, I don't think he was ever worth more than 5 million or so. He's 22/23, not 17/18. Adam Morgan shows more intelligence.

Offline Matt8Pie

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #181 on: April 2, 2012, 09:59:51 am »
If he actually put some effort in like he did for a bit of the first half yesterday throughout the rest of his time here, he definitely wouldn't be laughed at by every away team that comes to Anfield or by every home crowd when we play away. He's been his own undoing.
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Offline Dave D

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #182 on: April 2, 2012, 10:00:01 am »
Don't worry about big Andy. His entourage, yes men and hangers-on on that surround him will still tell him he's the best, he's right, everyone else is wrong and that disrespecting the manager and club he plays for is perfectly acceptable. The bubble he lives in, lives on.

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #183 on: April 2, 2012, 10:00:16 am »
His lack of intelligence is frightening and I have seen nothing since he has been here to suggest he can alter his game in any way leaving us with such a direct approach it makes your eyes bleed and even then his runs are poor. That's before we even get to his technical ability.

Most importantly though, he appears unable to develop any understanding with our best player.

He took centre stage yesterday pushing Suarez to the left and you have to question whether Suarez seen enough of the ball in this position.

Whether we sell or not is a matter for the beancounters and dependent on what offers we would receive I suspect. I would be suprised if there is a under no circumstances is he for sale sign, hanging over his head.

We clearly need another striker in the Summer to work with Suarez.
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Offline Z e u s

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #184 on: April 2, 2012, 10:02:59 am »
Selling Andy Carroll in the summer would be a stupid knee-jerk decision, both from footballing and financial point of view.


Knee jerk after 14 months?

Offline Blade

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #185 on: April 2, 2012, 10:04:46 am »
And Rafa left and with that his head scout who controlled his scout network. Its not a game of lends your notes and reports.

Considering that (by his own admission) Kenny was doing some serious scouting for Rafa when he was our manager, I'd say that it is very much a game of lends your notes and reports.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #186 on: April 2, 2012, 10:05:03 am »
There's nothing black and white about Carroll imo.

I think Kenny's mismanaged him, I think he's been taken out of the team when he's been playing well and not given a run of games when he's deserved one.

He's also proven to be an incredibly frustrating player.

That moment yesterday summed him up. Shows great strength, desire and ability to boss his way past 2 defenders, even a sweet little touch, calmness to round the 'keeper...and then dives when he's got a chance to shoot.

Just when he proves that there IS a player in there, he goes and manages to fuck himself over. Jonjo doesnt have alopecia, he's just pulled all his hair out watching Carroll.

I think the man is bereft of confidence, he dived because he didnt trust himself on his return to his old club when all eyes were on him to put the ball past the defenders on the line with his weaker foot.

Im fucked if I know what to do with him. And im not sure Kenny does either.

Offline liverpoolfan1

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #187 on: April 2, 2012, 10:05:12 am »
Knee jerk after 14 months?

I think the biggest knee jerk reaction was paying 35m for him after we had just made a huge profit on Torres.
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Offline Z e u s

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #188 on: April 2, 2012, 10:07:10 am »
Kenny has said many times that we bought Carroll for the length of his contract, not just the here and now

Just because someone has a long contract doesn't mean they can't or won't be sold.

The plans was obviously for Carroll to be the present and future of our club, but it has not gone to plan.

Offline stevensr123

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #189 on: April 2, 2012, 10:07:51 am »
Couldn't give a toss about the fee, It's his attitude that pisses me off, he doesn't even work hard for the team. You can constantly see him going down like a sack of spuds from even a small push, and considering he is a massive guy, it's a bit of a shit bag attitude to have. Then you take in the fact Most of the time he can't even be assed running into positions, running for the ball etc well it just pisses me off more than his lack of footballing ability.


But his attitude towards being subbed, the dive, the fact he started well then just couldn't give a shit after the 1st 20 minutes, Well that just crossed the line.

It's a shame as well because that move he didn't for that sitter of a chance, was fucking brilliant, But he has been 14 months and hasn't improved one bit.
« Last Edit: April 2, 2012, 10:09:52 am by stevensr123 »
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Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #190 on: April 2, 2012, 10:08:22 am »
Selling Andy Carroll isn't an option because we would roughly lose anywhere between 20 and 30 million. Firstly What club could afford 15 million for example on a striker. A top four club? Top five? Top Six? They can get more value for money than signing andy Carroll. So what other team would want Andy? Bolton? West Ham?

Offline Zlen

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #191 on: April 2, 2012, 10:08:40 am »
Knee jerk after 14 months?

Yes, knee jerk after 14 months.
What do we have to gain? Money? Not good enough, we'll lose out big time.
He should stay for another season at least and be used in a smarter way while putting out more intellectual effort to blend into the team and contribute in meaningful ways. If not, sell hime next summer, we won't get less money then now but in between now and then we might get a player.

Offline Z e u s

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #192 on: April 2, 2012, 10:10:09 am »
Controversially, if it came down to a choice between selling Suarez and selling Carroll, I’d sell Suarez. He’s a great player, but we don’t do half as well with him on the pitch.

The end of last season we were brilliant and Suarez was the catalyst.  So we do and can do well with Suarez.  If he had a striker he could link up with and didn't have to do everything on his own it would help.

Offline Matt8Pie

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #193 on: April 2, 2012, 10:10:38 am »
Yes, knee jerk after 14 months.
What do we have to gain? Money? Not good enough, we'll lose out big time.
He should stay for another season at least and be used in a smarter way while putting out more intellectual effort to blend into the team and contribute in meaningful ways. If not, sell hime next summer, we won't get less money then now but in between now and then we might get a player.

We've already lost out by buying him in the first place, in my opinion.
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Offline Z e u s

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #194 on: April 2, 2012, 10:11:07 am »
Yes, knee jerk after 14 months.

So Konchesky, Poulsen, Gonzalez, Kromkamp, Paletta etc were all knee jerk sales given they got less than 14 months?

Offline Blade

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #195 on: April 2, 2012, 10:11:24 am »
Knee jerk after 14 months?

Very much, considering that he has just turned 23, and that we could probably recoup only 30-40% of what we have paid for him. Can we please be more patient with our young players and justify the "most knowledgeable fans" tag? Andy is very far from being a finished article, and we probably knew this when we were buying him. Don't let the price tag fool you.

Offline Matt8Pie

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #196 on: April 2, 2012, 10:12:00 am »
Controversially, if it came down to a choice between selling Suarez and selling Carroll, I’d sell Suarez.

It's not controversial, that's actually the stupidest thing I've ever seen on this forum. Congratulations. Fucking clueless.
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Offline tax_man

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #197 on: April 2, 2012, 10:12:08 am »
Selling Andy Carroll isn't an option because we would roughly lose anywhere between 20 and 30 million. Firstly What club could afford 15 million for example on a striker. A top four club? Top five? Top Six? They can get more value for money than signing andy Carroll. So what other team would want Andy? Bolton? West Ham?

But if we're gonna loose that anyway eventually maybe the management will decide to cut our losses this summer. The gamble is whether we think Carroll can massively improve next season. Do you see it? I wish I did but his movement and intelligence is that of a Championship striker. Or worse. His first touch is shocking too. His physical stature and left foot give me hope but he's lacking in so many areas.

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #198 on: April 2, 2012, 10:12:18 am »
I think the whole situation has been handled appallingly. A masterclass in poor man-management, and considering he probably wasn't too arsed about coming here in the first place, that's only going to end one way.
What do you mean by that? Poor man-management in what way? Should Kenny have started Carroll even more than he has?

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Re: Carroll - A sensible discussion.
« Reply #199 on: April 2, 2012, 10:13:09 am »
Selling Andy Carroll isn't an option because we would roughly lose anywhere between 20 and 30 million. Firstly What club could afford 15 million for example on a striker.

Stoke paid £15 million for Crouch didn't they?