Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 493202 times)

Offline PaulD

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[
i]You don't want to convince those people, but you think the club should just ride roughshod over their feelings and do something to which they are vocally and vehemently opposed?

I think there's been rather too much of that done to them already. [/i]

LFC would not do that - LFC just could not do that.

If LFC were convinced that such a design would improve and secure fan safety - then they have a duty of care to take the time to explain why and in whose interests it should be done.


Offline gorgepir

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Guys could maybe the safe standing issue be discussed in another thread and keep this thread to news and developments regarding Anfield?

Offline PaulD

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This is the mainstream thread dealing with the redesign of the stadium and how it might impact on the immediate Community.

Safe standing is arguably a central and integral element to both the spiritual and functional design of the stadium - it should stay in this thread.

Offline Nessy76

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This is the mainstream thread dealing with the redesign of the stadium and how it might impact on the immediate Community.

Safe standing is arguably a central and integral element to both the spiritual and functional design of the stadium - it should stay in this thread.

It's not going to happen, so how can it be central or integral to anything?
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Offline Peter McGurk

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It's not going to happen, so how can it be central or integral to anything?

That post could have been written ten years ago and it could have been written about the redevelopment of Anfield.

Challenging the preconception about a new stadium has yielded a better result all round. We need to challenge current preconceptions about safe standing to get the very best for everyone connected with the club.

Offline Nessy76

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That post could have been written ten years ago and it could have been written about the redevelopment of Anfield.

Challenging the preconception about a new stadium has yielded a better result all round. We need to challenge current preconceptions about safe standing to get the very best for everyone connected with the club.

Then start a thread on the subject and fill your boots. For now, it's a non-starter here, for reasons which you manage to simultaneously acknowledge AND ignore. It's almost impressive.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Then start a thread on the subject and fill your boots. For now, it's a non-starter here, for reasons which you manage to simultaneously acknowledge AND ignore. It's almost impressive.

It's surprising that anyone can want to ignore an issue that is so important to the club. Any discussion of the stadium without discussing the option of safe standing is such a wasted opportunity.

We can blindly go on the way we're going on - as the crowd gets older and quieter and the life and common purpose drifts out of the club or, we can say there's a better way.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:26:05 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Nessy76

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It's surprising that anyone can want to ignore an issue that is so important to the club. Any discussion of the stadium without discussing the option of safe standing is such a wasted opportunity.

We can blindly go on the way we're going on - as the crowd gets older and quieter and the life and common purpose drifts out of the club or, we can say there's a better way.

The better way being what though? In actual reality, what is it that you think you are going to achieve here? You don't want to convince the families of the 96, but you think the club should build safe standing areas regardless of their feelings? You think they've suffered enough, but you want to torment them further by getting the club to do something they would find appalling. There's no consistency or logic to your point of view, it's nonsense.

Safe standing is clearly not on the table for the redevelopment of Anfield, and you know all the reasons why. The fact that some of those reasons aren't what a lot of people assume them to be is neither here nor there, the ONLY reason that matters is that there is serious opposition from the families.

I'd like to keep reading this thread for REAL developments to the stadium that actually stand a chance of happening. So until someone at the club suggests that this is even being considered, can you please show a little courtesy and take this where it belongs?
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It's surprising that anyone can want to ignore an issue that is so important to the club. Any discussion of the stadium without discussing the option of safe standing is such a wasted opportunity.

We can blindly go on the way we're going on - as the crowd gets older and quieter and the life and common purpose drifts out of the club or, we can say there's a better way.

The thing is it wasn't Hillsborough that started the conversion of terraces into seating areas it had been going on for decades. Why nearly two and a half decades later do you believe there is a reason for the Club to do the exact opposite and turn seats into safe standing. The real killer though is that in Germany there is fan ownership and it is fan ownership that keeps the cost of going to football within the reach of the working class not safe standing.

Prices for Premiership games have been hiked up because Clubs have been able to get away with it putting safe standing areas in won't change that they will hike the prices as high as they possibly can because that is what they do. It's not about construction costs because the main stand was paid for years ago. They will charge as much as they possibly can whether it's a standing place or a seat so for me the cost argument doesn't really add up.
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Offline 18 yard line

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This is a healthy debate that needs to be had, whether here or in another thread.  The safety issue must be non negotiable, for our club above all others given our history.  The families of the 96 will want safer; everyone owes it to them, to the 96 and the next generation to make the game as safe as possible.  Once and only once we have that debate and IF it is in considered opinion shown to be as safe, or moreso, than Seats, then Safe Standing has to be seriously considered for Anfield.

If (that word again) Safe Standing is demonstrably safer then I absolutely agree with Peter that it can be a major contributor to bringing back the Anfield atmosphere whilst at the same time keeping the match affordable for the next generation then it really is a fantastic opportunity, providing the Club lead on this in a measured and dignified way. 
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Offline Nessy76

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This is a healthy debate that needs to be had, whether here or in another thread. 

I don't disupte that for a second, and I think Peter has certainly made some very valid points on the subject.
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Offline Zeb

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Not really... you continue to draw a distinction between the safety of sitting and (inferior) safety of standing. I say if there is any difference at all, safe standing is safer and certainly safer than standing in seating areas.

Well, no, I was commenting on how systems can fail for both standing and seating. I'll continue to draw a distinction between the safety of both until a convincing argument is put forward. I fail to see one hiding here. "And the merit of safe standing in terms of safety has to be apparent to the satisfaction of all at the very start of that debate." <--- that's not happened. So don't be surprised if the distinction continues to be made until it does. FSF have tried, but I was unconvinced because I've stood on the real thing - and I know some of the FSF's arguments are misleading to put it mildly. If you want to wander within the terracing, away from your allocated spot, you can. With the check system, it's fairly common for stewards to not have time to check which block you're meant to be in - there's a cultural difference which plays a big role here as to why it doesn't happen more regularly. Hell, German hooligans used to be the ones sat down; it's a different football culture. I also know you're incorrect about the bunching, though it's mitigated to a degree in Germany because German safe standing areas are sold under capacity to ensure crowd safety. But let's transplant it straight into British football stadia? Better start convincing people with some well thought out arguments beyond 'it works in Germany'. Just my twopennyhalfpennyworth.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Well, no, I was commenting on how systems can fail for both standing and seating. I'll continue to draw a distinction between the safety of both until a convincing argument is put forward. I fail to see one hiding here. "And the merit of safe standing in terms of safety has to be apparent to the satisfaction of all at the very start of that debate." <--- that's not happened. So don't be surprised if the distinction continues to be made until it does. FSF have tried, but I was unconvinced because I've stood on the real thing - and I know some of the FSF's arguments are misleading to put it mildly. If you want to wander within the terracing, away from your allocated spot, you can. With the check system, it's fairly common for stewards to not have time to check which block you're meant to be in - there's a cultural difference which plays a big role here as to why it doesn't happen more regularly. Hell, German hooligans used to be the ones sat down; it's a different football culture. I also know you're incorrect about the bunching, though it's mitigated to a degree in Germany because German safe standing areas are sold under capacity to ensure crowd safety. But let's transplant it straight into British football stadia? Better start convincing people with some well thought out arguments beyond 'it works in Germany'. Just my twopennyhalfpennyworth.

This http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/906-Grounds/549-standing-in-the-bundesliga plucked more at less at random from a google search is no academic or authoritative study but it does headline the issues in practice of standing in Germany.

However, the evaluation of the safety of safe standing in the UK has to be looked at through the eyes of UK regulation of not only the physical system of seats and barrier but also the system of control and stewarding. As you say, it's not good enough to say it works in Germany and leave it at that.

But if you look at safe standing and measure it against UK regulation it is safer than 'UK standing' by any standard within those regulations - principally because the barriers are closer together. Every other row. To an old kopite, it’s tame and many would be disappointed. So be it.

UK standing is a much improved version of the old-style terraces. It is nonetheless considered safe for every sport in the country bar one (football) and only in the top two divisions.

Safe standing is completely different, as you aware. Having been in both (I assume), you would have to agree that the standard of safety goes well beyond UK standing.

If you have experienced enough room to move around in safe standing in Germany you have experienced safe standing at a safer level. With a barrier every two rows, it's not like pin-balling about on a half-empty kop ever was.

The tickets sales and names and addresses (and in the case of safe standing, ‘standing on blobs of paint’ as it were - they don’t really) are about controlling behaviour. That has a link to safety but it is not about safety per se.

Poor behaviour can happen anywhere. Throwing coins and letting off flares can happen as much standing in the Südtribüne as it can sitting at Old Trafford.

As the article mentions, proper stewarding is essential. I have never once not had my ticket checked on going up the steps into the Kop. In that respect maybe UK stewards do better than German stewards. But despite UK regulations our stewards clearly struggle to keep people sitting down. People want to stand and seemingly nothing will stop them. Much better to provide for that safely (whether 'seated' or not) than continue the struggle in vain.

Safe standing as applicable in the UK would be as safe if not safer than seating in the UK. Not because ‘it works in Germany’ but because it exceeds all the safety precautions. It has all the safety precautions that UK seating has and more.

Even the police, who are quite rightly now in an acutely sensitive position on the matter, agree that safe standing if not 'normal' standing (the distinction between safe standing and standing is not made) is safe. The issue for them is controlling Hooliganism, which is about safety per se and not about the causes if Hillsborough, which is about where I came in... http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/dec/11/police-consider-terraces-standing

« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 11:07:32 am by Peter McGurk »

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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As the article mentions, proper stewarding is essential. I have never once not had my ticket checked on going up the steps into the Kop.

Are you serious or am I lost in your nest of negatives?
I never, ever, show my ticket when going up the steps onto the Kop.  Given the number of people who enter on ST's that they return to the "owner" before finding their seat then I suspect most people are the same. 
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Offline PaulD

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Please advise who took the decision to split this thread - it would helpful  if there was an explanation.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Are you serious or am I lost in your nest of negatives?
I never, ever, show my ticket when going up the steps onto the Kop.  Given the number of people who enter on ST's that they return to the "owner" before finding their seat then I suspect most people are the same.

Really? Well, it goes to show that systems and rules have to be properly applied whether sitting or standing. But in this case, this part of it is to do with identification to help the police get to troublemakers. Since you can in any event walk right across the kop if you want to, bunching can occur anyway. But it doesn't. Because there's not enough room to bunch two to a seat and is easily spotted - as with safe standing.

Offline fatlip13

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to me the biggest issue is what happens before you get to your seat in terms of safety, you are let into the ground in a controlled manner. having a seat to go to should limit the number of players in areas(you could be swept along in an uncontrolled crowd surge).
i said before "safe standing" is not for upping capacity but a choice of viewing the match. if it is agreed that it is safer and enough fans want it then serious discussions should take place with the families.

how matches are controlled is vastly different today. the club can help by giving incentives for fans to get in the ground early e.g. free tea, coffee or drink if you are in the ground by 20 minutes before kick-off

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to me the biggest issue is what happens before you get to your seat in terms of safety, you are let into the ground in a controlled manner. having a seat to go to should limit the number of players in areas(you could be swept along in an uncontrolled crowd surge).
i said before "safe standing" is not for upping capacity but a choice of viewing the match. if it is agreed that it is safer and enough fans want it then serious discussions should take place with the families.

how matches are controlled is vastly different today. the club can help by giving incentives for fans to get in the ground early e.g. free tea, coffee or drink if you are in the ground by 20 minutes before kick-off

There is no difference between having a set seat to go to and a set standing spot in terms of what you are discussing.

Offline fatlip13

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There is no difference between having a set seat to go to and a set standing spot in terms of what you are discussing.

i agree but standing seems to be bad and sitting is good where i don't think it is black and white. how you manage the stadium is much more important

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Is the discussion currently focussed on whether it is safer to stand amongst seating as is done currently or to stand in safe standing areas that are specifically designed for purpose. I find it hard to believe that it could be argued that standing amongst seats is safer.

Forgive me if I am wrong but do most fans believe that safe standing would improve the atmosphere? My understanding from the relatively few (hundred or so) football going friends is that it would. My son, aged 8 thought that the QPR game (away) was the best atmosphere he'd seen - standing throughout of course.

What is certain is that ours is the only club that could progress the safe standing option given the emotive nature of the issue.

I would like to see safe standing in the stadium redevelopment and let our pro-active approach be the catalyst for a nationwide recovery of football character.

It won't happen I'm sure, but if it doesn't at Anfield, it wont happen at any top level stadia I fear. Hope I'm wrong.
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Offline PaulD

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Really hope it does happen - in doing so it shows we have the strength of mind and vision of thought to work our way together through deeply held fears.

Offline GeorgiaRed

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #141 on: February 11, 2013, 01:43:56 am »
Really? Well, it goes to show that systems and rules have to be properly applied whether sitting or standing. But in this case, this part of it is to do with identification to help the police get to troublemakers. Since you can in any event walk right across the kop if you want to, bunching can occur anyway. But it doesn't. Because there's not enough room to bunch two to a seat and is easily spotted - as with safe standing.

Hello Peter,

I have a question that is not meant to incite the wrath of anyone - I just don't know the answer to it.  Was the tragedy at Hillsborough due to the standing area or how the crowds were managed upon arrival?

I know that at stadiums I have been to here in the USA they have a fairly strict seating access - If you don't have a ticket you don't get into the section. Once in the section you can't jump to another section. Keep in mind that this is if the game was well attended. I have been to some hockey games where you could sit anywhere you want as long as the seat was open. 

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #142 on: February 11, 2013, 09:50:26 am »
Hello Peter,

I have a question that is not meant to incite the wrath of anyone - I just don't know the answer to it.  Was the tragedy at Hillsborough due to the standing area or how the crowds were managed upon arrival?

I know that at stadiums I have been to here in the USA they have a fairly strict seating access - If you don't have a ticket you don't get into the section. Once in the section you can't jump to another section. Keep in mind that this is if the game was well attended. I have been to some hockey games where you could sit anywhere you want as long as the seat was open.

The police were led by a superintendent new to the job 'with no particular expertise' in football and crowd management. The fans were not managed into lines outside the ground (in a 'control zone') which had been the practice for many years at every (?) ground.

The stadium turnstiles were not capable of absorbing the flow of incoming fans. To avert the developing and dangerous crush outside the ground, the same superintendent ordered the opening of a very large side gate, giving up any chance of proper stewardship of entry to the stadium.

Access to the terraces themselves was open to all areas. Worse, the central section was directly opposite the opened gate and through a tunnel which once entered, had no way of going back. In previous years this tunnel had been closed when that section was 'full'.

The tunnel stayed open and most of the fans went down it - following a very prominent 'Standing' sign. Fans entering the tunnel had no way of knowing what was happening at the other end of it. They were left to sort it out themselves or, according to police records,  'to find their own level' despite being penned into the central section with no way of getting to the half-empty side pens.

An early surge (the match had started) created more space at the back of terrace for more people to get in from the tunnel. Thus the pressure in the central pen gradually increased even after the match had started.

There were gates from the central pen to the side pens - these stayed locked. There were gates in a fence on to the pitch. These were also kept locked.

The police have a responsibility to visually monitor the crowd. They must see first-hand what's going on. They 'police' the crowd and they have a duty of care to manage crowd safety. Despite that and despite the lack of unruly behaviour or any kind of civil disorder that needed to be policed and despite the protests of fans, some of whom were dying, the tunnel stayed open and all possible exits and escapes remained locked shut and individual police pushed some fans who were trying to get out, back into the crowd.


The biggest lesson learned (in terms of design) is to properly control entry to the stadium and provide generous means of getting out. The kind of system you describe in the States is just the system introduced in the UK after Hillsborough. Safe Standing has the same system.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 10:08:46 am by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #143 on: February 11, 2013, 10:21:48 am »
Please advise who took the decision to split this thread - it would helpful  if there was an explanation.

I split the safe standing discussion out, as it is an emotive issue for us. I was envisaging that this branch of the topic would eventually end up getting locked. By splitting the discussions early it means that the stadium redevelopment topic can remain open without us having to manually pick out the safe standing posts at a later date.

Besides safe standing is a big enough issue to support its own topic.

Offline PaulD

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #144 on: February 11, 2013, 11:47:31 am »



Thanks.

Which thread would you recommend to be used for those wishing to maintain awareness of the need to incorporate safe standing in the (re)design of Anfield?

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #145 on: February 11, 2013, 02:01:07 pm »


Thanks.

Which thread would you recommend to be used for those wishing to maintain awareness of the need to incorporate safe standing in the (re)design of Anfield?

This one. It is just about safe standing. The other topic is about other redevelopment matters apart from safe standing.

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #146 on: February 11, 2013, 02:06:12 pm »
This one. It is just about safe standing. The other topic is about other redevelopment matters apart from safe standing.

Well, I hope you don't mind if anyone continues to comment here about safe standing as part of a redeveloped Anfield.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 02:09:52 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #147 on: February 11, 2013, 02:15:46 pm »
Well, I hope you don't mind if anyone continues to comment here about safe standing as part of a redeveloped Anfield.

Are we interested in safe standing anywhere else? Of course talk about Anfield in here. The only reason for the split is that if this topic goes off the rails, the other topic can sail on majestically.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #148 on: February 11, 2013, 02:27:51 pm »
I will return back to the thread later after researching when I get home (just about to leave) but I could have sworn I heard a handful of stadiums were considering trialling safe standing?

I personally am for safe standing, safety must be the ultimate concern at all times when considering how and if to implement it.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #149 on: February 11, 2013, 03:15:09 pm »
Are we interested in safe standing anywhere else? Of course talk about Anfield in here. The only reason for the split is that if this topic goes off the rails, the other topic can sail on majestically.

Whether we are or not, it's an important part of the stadium debate.


I will return back to the thread later after researching when I get home (just about to leave) but I could have sworn I heard a handful of stadiums were considering trialling safe standing?

I personally am for safe standing, safety must be the ultimate concern at all times when considering how and if to implement it.

The FSF's Safe Standing Campaign is supported by Aldershot Town, Aston Villa, Brentford, Bristol City, Burnley, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace, Derby County, Doncaster Rovers, Exeter City, Hull City, Oldham Athletic, Peterborough United, Plymouth Argyle, Sunderland, Swansea City, Swindon Town, Watford, AFC Wimbledon, Wolverhampton Wanderers, the Scottish Premier League, the Safe Standing Roadshow and Stand Up Sit Down. http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/view/safe-standing-campaign
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 04:54:18 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #150 on: February 11, 2013, 03:15:15 pm »
I will return back to the thread later after researching when I get home (just about to leave) but I could have sworn I heard a handful of stadiums were considering trialling safe standing?

I personally am for safe standing, safety must be the ultimate concern at all times when considering how and if to implement it.

The SPL have allowed it - www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16248937

There are a number of Premier League and Championship clubs who support it and would be willing to trial it but it is still not allowed by the Govt. and I don't think they have shown any willing to change their stance on this anytime soon. Villa, Sunderland and Swansea are the 3 PL clubs currently supporting it I think.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #151 on: February 11, 2013, 04:50:44 pm »
The SPL have allowed it - www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16248937

There are a number of Premier League and Championship clubs who support it and would be willing to trial it but it is still not allowed by the Govt. and I don't think they have shown any willing to change their stance on this anytime soon. Villa, Sunderland and Swansea are the 3 PL clubs currently supporting it I think.

Doesn't the Scottish version of SafeR standing have exactly the same capacity whether standing or seated which kind defeats many of the aims of  SafeR standing.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #152 on: February 11, 2013, 05:54:07 pm »
Doesn't the Scottish version of SafeR standing have exactly the same capacity whether standing or seated which kind defeats many of the aims of  SafeR standing.

The trial version in Scotland has one person standing per 'seat' http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/289210-explained-how-safe-standing-would-work-in-scotland/

Offline fatlip13

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #153 on: February 16, 2013, 06:36:32 pm »
The trial version in Scotland has one person standing per 'seat' http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/celtic/289210-explained-how-safe-standing-would-work-in-scotland/

i believe this is the only option we should consider. standing is an option that is taken in how you wish to watch the game and not to increase profits.
how people get to the viewing point is crucial but the numbers in these areas have to be strickly monitored. how other clubs wish to do this is up to them but if we introduce it we must have the safest possible area.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #154 on: February 16, 2013, 06:42:19 pm »
i believe this is the only option we should consider. standing is an option that is taken in how you wish to watch the game and not to increase profits.
how people get to the viewing point is crucial but the numbers in these areas have to be strickly monitored. how other clubs wish to do this is up to them but if we introduce it we must have the safest possible area.

Standing tickets will be priced cheaper, so more per area than seating doesn't mean it will be about increasing profits (on ticket sales) anyway.

The numbers have to be monitored yes, but this is NO DIFFERENT to areas where people stand (where seats are fitted) now. It is also no different to monitoring where people sit now and making sure the correct people and numbers are in those areas. 1 person, 1 standing spot. It's not hard to spot an extra person on a row when you look up from the bottom and see someone out of line - much like you'd spot 3 people squeezed onto 2 seats easily from the bottom (and trust me I have seen people try this many times when they have got tickets sat apart).

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #155 on: February 16, 2013, 06:47:08 pm »
i believe this is the only option we should consider. standing is an option that is taken in how you wish to watch the game and not to increase profits.
how people get to the viewing point is crucial but the numbers in these areas have to be strickly monitored. how other clubs wish to do this is up to them but if we introduce it we must have the safest possible area.

The point is to give more people access to the game at a price they can afford and still have the income to get the players needed to compete.

Having the same numbers standing at the same price isn't going to help people get to the match. And charging a lesser price isn't going to help the team.

Safe standing is the safest possible arrangement. Safer than what we do now. Standing or sitting (or standing in sitting areas).


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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #156 on: February 16, 2013, 06:48:14 pm »
much like you'd spot 3 people squeezed onto 2 seats easily from the bottom (and trust me I have seen people try this many times when they have got tickets sat apart).

Reminds me of Barca at home in the CL. I went in on my mates dupe (naughty I know), and realised that everyone would be sitting down. Fortunately a scouser at the back shouted me and there was a pipe coming out that separated two seats, so I perched there. Lucky!
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #157 on: February 16, 2013, 06:54:19 pm »
Reminds me of Barca at home in the CL. I went in on my mates dupe (naughty I know), and realised that everyone would be sitting down. Fortunately a scouser at the back shouted me and there was a pipe coming out that separated two seats, so I perched there. Lucky!

And that's a good thing?


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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #158 on: February 16, 2013, 07:03:53 pm »
And that's a good thing?

Think he is pointing out that it's just as possible to fit more people in a seated area as it would be a standing - not that its a great example to make!!

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #159 on: February 16, 2013, 07:11:18 pm »
Think he is pointing out that it's just as possible to fit more people in a seated area as it would be a standing - not that its a great example to make!!

My point would be that whatever the system, we all have a responsibility.