Author Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)  (Read 493244 times)

Online CraigDS

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #200 on: February 28, 2013, 12:41:16 pm »
P.S. I really enjoy reading your stadium discussion updates. As time goes by though I can't help but feel that the current owners are drip feeding  info as a PR exercise designed to cover their reluctance to commit. This is worrying and consistent with other peoples views that they are not so committed in the longer term. I really hope that I am wrong but even H&G had more stadium candy for us to chew on at this stage in their ownership.

And look where that got us...

Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #201 on: February 28, 2013, 01:00:07 pm »
The experience has certainly changed. My first visit to the kop in 1988 was incredible. It was loud, buzzing and certainly precarious. I was 16 and remember during those early years having to keep my witts about me during the aftermath of of a Liverpool goal. I would often be swept forward in a surge going down 2/3 steps or more and returning. I distinctly remember my friends and myself being split up during the celebrations following Kenny's goal at Stamford bridge in 88'. 

This was certainly not a place for kids, arguably not for the fairer sex maybe. BUT if you could bottle up that feeling..... the noise..... the throng .... the collective expectation, then why not be able to serve it up to your offspring to share the experience. I would say that maybe this is what our aspirations should be. The kids sing... the kids wave their scarves... they have unconditional support. I often look amongst the crowd and think that if only some of the olden's took a leaf from their book of attitude, then even the quieter parts of the ground would come to life. Then we would all win, even the wife who, whilst indifferent, doesn't want to miss out on watching our kids have the time of their lives.


P.S. I really enjoy reading your stadium discussion updates. As time goes by though I can't help but feel that the current owners are drip feeding  info as a PR exercise designed to cover their reluctance to commit. This is worrying and consistent with other peoples views that they are not so committed in the longer term. I really hope that I am wrong but even H&G had more stadium candy for us to chew on at this stage in their ownership.

The answer is to get all the old cynics like me (but hey, you’re 40...) out of the kop and into the stands where I most definitely belong. I can sit on my hands and mumble into my beard (if I had one) all I like there, while the young bloods (the 40 year olds and less...) kick up a ruckus in the kop.

The cheap seats in the corner quadrants would be better for families and six-year olds - where they might enjoy a ‘kop-like’ experience (being next to it but not in it - like the boys’ pen was but with parental supervision). As and when they grow up...

As for FSG dragging their feet, I don’t think it’s about lack of commitment. The new stadium was fixed like a messiah in the minds of most. Getting everyone to accept that dumping it is best (and making redevelopment possible at council) took time (and effectively £50m of FSG money) but it was and is a huge achievement.

And taking the time to sort out land issues properly is absolutely vital. There’s no way we’ll hear anything concrete about anything unless it’s bolted down, signed, sealed and delivered.

In any event and as I’ve always said, there’s easier ways to make money and no-one should rush into redevelopment. And the team is hardly starved (£40m this year?). ‘Easy’ stages will be the key.

And the H&G candy to chew on was all it ever was.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 01:20:51 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline sowellred

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #202 on: February 28, 2013, 01:07:40 pm »

The cheap seats in the corner quadrants would be better for families and six-year olds - where they might enjoy a ‘kop-like’ experience (being next to it but not in it - like the boys’ pen was but with parental supervision). As and when they grow up...


This is a promoising idea, really like it.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 07:50:01 pm by sowellred »
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #203 on: February 28, 2013, 08:37:08 pm »
Maybe, and safety aside, women in general just don’t ‘get’ standing?

This is definitely not true for all of us, I have been standing on the Kop and at away games since I was allowed to go on my own/with friends in my teens and currently choose to stand at the back of the Kop whenever possible. A lot of the time I prefer away games nowadays because of the chance to stand and because of the atmosphere. I adored the old standing Kop, I'm certainly not bothered how close I'm standing to other people or whether I have a perfect view (and I happen to think the back of the Kop is about the best view you can get anyway) and a large part of my enjoyment of going would be taken away if I was sitting down every week.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #204 on: February 28, 2013, 08:45:20 pm »
This is definitely not true for all of us, I have been standing on the Kop and at away games since I was allowed to go on my own/with friends in my teens and currently choose to stand at the back of the Kop whenever possible. A lot of the time I prefer away games nowadays because of the chance to stand and because of the atmosphere. I adored the old standing Kop, I'm certainly not bothered how close I'm standing to other people or whether I have a perfect view (and I happen to think the back of the Kop is about the best view you can get anyway) and a large part of my enjoyment of going would be taken away if I was sitting down every week.

Yes, it was a generalisation but you do never get to stand as close as anyone did on the old kop. Would you enjoy that the same?

Nonetheless, you clearly prefer standing now - but it's not a legitimate option.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #205 on: February 28, 2013, 09:23:55 pm »
Yes, it was a generalisation but you do never get to stand as close as anyone did on the old kop. Would you enjoy that the same?

Nonetheless, you clearly prefer standing now - but it's not a legitimate option.

As I said, I used to stand on the old Kop and the closeness wasn't an issue for me then and I'm guessing it wouldn't be now. I'm fairly tall though and can appreciate that smaller people (both men and women) may not like it. But as you say we won't be going back to that anyway. I would however be in favour in trialing safe standing.
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Offline Gregory Vignal

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I stand at the Halliwell Jones stadium in Warrington. Never any issues with crushing due to; adequate stewarding, large gangways clearly marked with yellow paint, deep tread steps, solid barriers, police control box above monitoring crowd densities, plus the exits and entrances are the bottom so stands fill upwards.

Offline Adamski LFC

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Safe standing video piece on BT Sport only a couple of minutes long.  Only the briefest of looks at it, but interestingly presented by Tony Evans inside Anfield. 

1) Could this be an LFC board idea to get this discussed again? 

With the continuing revelations as the ongoing part of the Hillsborough scandal;

2) Could the Taylor report be regarded as part of the overall will in Whitehall at that time to drive the game away from any terraces ever?

3) Also, has the Taylor report had its day as a report, in that it never envisaged standing could be safe?

4) Has the Taylor report allowed blame to be shifted on to terracing as an evil that helped cause the disaster?

Before any alleged callousness on my part is decried, I can state that I was alive as an LFC fan and watched the horror of the tragedy, and the conspiracy, as it has turned out to be, unfold.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Safe standing video piece on BT Sport only a couple of minutes long.  Only the briefest of looks at it, but interestingly presented by Tony Evans inside Anfield. 

1) Could this be an LFC board idea to get this discussed again? 

With the continuing revelations as the ongoing part of the Hillsborough scandal;

2) Could the Taylor report be regarded as part of the overall will in Whitehall at that time to drive the game away from any terraces ever?

3) Also, has the Taylor report had its day as a report, in that it never envisaged standing could be safe?

4) Has the Taylor report allowed blame to be shifted on to terracing as an evil that helped cause the disaster?

Before any alleged callousness on my part is decried, I can state that I was alive as an LFC fan and watched the horror of the tragedy, and the conspiracy, as it has turned out to be, unfold.

I missed the BT Sport thing but I can’t see it being board-inspired. At this point it would distract the process of moving Anfield forward.

The political background to the Taylor Report was highly-charged with anti-hooligansim and the government wanted rid of the problem, terraces, a terrible reputation in Europe... - if only it could rid the game of ‘fanatics’, it would have done. Still would.

So yes, the Taylor Report is old news on safety and a deflection from the real causes of the deaths - whether by coincidence or design.


Offline Anfieldite

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I think people have false expectations for what safe standing would be like. All the younger fans seem to think that the Kop of old was every person singing constantly for 90 minutes. There was a hardcore within the Kop that would create the singing, just like the 305/6 now, only it was positioned further forward, and the rest of the crowd would only join in now and then depending on the action on the pitch, and on the occasion, again just like now.

So the difference in match experience between fans standing in front of their seat now, and safe standing would be fairly undramatic in my opinion. 


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I think people have false expectations for what safe standing would be like. All the younger fans seem to think that the Kop of old was every person singing constantly for 90 minutes. There was a hardcore within the Kop that would create the singing, just like the 305/6 now, only it was positioned further forward, and the rest of the crowd would only join in now and then depending on the action on the pitch, and on the occasion, again just like now.

So the difference in match experience between fans standing in front of their seat now, and safe standing would be fairly undramatic in my opinion.

You're missing a whole load of other things which safe standing would (and could) bring, such as a greater number in the same area (think approx 1.5 per seat currently), more chance of mates getting together, lower prices, movement of an older generation away to sitting areas, etc.

All of these would help increase the atmosphere, few to none of which can happen with sitting.

Offline Anfieldite

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You're missing a whole load of other things which safe standing would (and could) bring, such as a greater number in the same area (think approx 1.5 per seat currently), more chance of mates getting together, lower prices, movement of an older generation away to sitting areas, etc.

All of these would help increase the atmosphere, few to none of which can happen with sitting.

I'm fully aware of those but the effects you mention are only initial advantages which will be lost a couple of seasons in.

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I'm fully aware of those but the effects you mention are only initial advantages which will be lost a couple of seasons in.

You can't really lose most of those, especially as you get new fans coming in too.

Offline Peter McGurk

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I think people have false expectations for what safe standing would be like. All the younger fans seem to think that the Kop of old was every person singing constantly for 90 minutes. There was a hardcore within the Kop that would create the singing, just like the 305/6 now, only it was positioned further forward, and the rest of the crowd would only join in now and then depending on the action on the pitch, and on the occasion, again just like now.

So the difference in match experience between fans standing in front of their seat now, and safe standing would be fairly undramatic in my opinion.

I think you're underestimating the atmosphere just a tad. The number of minutes singing aside, standing together with your mates is a completely different experience.

But the real issue is one of access.

The Kop holds about 12,000. It could hold about 22,000 standing - 22,000 cheaper tickets. Atmosphere yes but the point of doing it (as in Germany) is to give choice and to get more people in. People who want to stand and people who don't want to spend £45 a game. I don't really see that demand going away any time soon - particularly amongst the younger fans.

Since the club believes a 60,000 all seater stadium at £45 and more can be filled, there's a clear suggestion that adding cheaper standing tickets in the Kop for those who want to stand and don't want to pay as much would be 'very popular' (to quote the stadium manager from Dortmund)

« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 09:19:12 am by Peter McGurk »

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Peter, with all the due respect, do you think that after the false impressions around stadium standing created by Hillsborough, there is any chance of it being re-instated.

Keep also in mind that one of the prerequisites to compete in the premier league is to have all seating stadium. Also since the all seating has come into force, most stadia have gone through upgrades and transformations, that cater for seating only, and therefore can support less weight than standing where there is a potential to fit between 2 and 3.

I am not saying I am against it, as in fact I have visited several standing stadia with no problems, but I do not see it happening anytime soon in the premier league.
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Offline Peter McGurk

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Peter, with all the due respect, do you think that after the false impressions around stadium standing created by Hillsborough, there is any chance of it being re-instated.

Keep also in mind that one of the prerequisites to compete in the premier league is to have all seating stadium. Also since the all seating has come into force, most stadia have gone through upgrades and transformations, that cater for seating only, and therefore can support less weight than standing where there is a potential to fit between 2 and 3.

I am not saying I am against it, as in fact I have visited several standing stadia with no problems, but I do not see it happening anytime soon in the premier league.

Yes and as you probably know the Taylor Report was more about anti-Hooliganism than Hillsborough.

It's almost twice the capacity but it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to strengthen and/or brace the structure if need be.

So the practicalities are the least of the issue - a change in attitude is what's needed. Even the police consider safe standing safe, some just don't want to police it. Some still think we cannot be trusted to behave and stand.

"Police opposition to the proposal, however, is not that standing areas are in themselves unsafe, but that supporters are more likely to misbehave when standing. Andy Holt, the deputy chief constable of South Yorkshire police, who leads for ACPO on football policing, has told the Guardian he is opposed to standing areas because he believes it could contribute to "the unruly element" and hooliganism increasing in football."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/dec/11/police-consider-terraces-standing
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 10:41:52 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Hi, yet another South Yorkshire Police senior member tarring the attendees as the problem.  IMHO whether standing or sitting, a tribal or crowd mentality can form.  Is he basing his views on cheaper tickets mean more chance of louts, or by having more people in the same space you have more trouble?

The ability to monitor the crowd in safe standing should really address those problems, safe standing is not the standing of old.

I am not disagreeing with anyone on here, but feel the South Yorkshire police may be miss-representing safe standing as alike to stranding of old, which it is not!

German stadiums that compete at the highest levels in some cases have safe standing, as do others.  Surely this means that it can't be seen as a security risk?  Especially as if UEFA sanction it and are known for being so strict when it comes to safety.
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Offline Anfieldite

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You can't really lose most of those, especially as you get new fans coming in too.

It's lost now a touch surely? When the tickets first go on sale yes friends will be able to get together, exactly the same as when Anfield and the rest of the grounds went all seater. Over the years some drop out and they're the seats that come available so you're back to how it is now.

That's why I think friends getting together is only an initial advantage.
Seats in safe standing still requires a ticket in a pre allocated position

Safe standing with the rail seats are just a slightly tighter version of standing in front of your seat in my opinion

Offline Peter McGurk

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It's lost now a touch surely? When the tickets first go on sale yes friends will be able to get together, exactly the same as when Anfield and the rest of the grounds went all seater. Over the years some drop out and they're the seats that come available so you're back to how it is now.

That's why I think friends getting together is only an initial advantage.
Seats in safe standing still requires a ticket in a pre allocated position

Safe standing with the rail seats are just a slightly tighter version of standing in front of your seat in my opinion

Safe standing is a LOT safer than standing in a sitting area and if tickets were on general sale or sold to members in blocks of 4 or more, people could stick together match to match and still have tickets and still be traceable. It wouldn't have to be the same 4 or more people every match or even the same spec.

Offline Anfieldite

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Safe standing is a LOT safer than standing in a sitting area and if tickets were on general sale or sold to members in blocks of 4 or more, people could stick together match to match and still have tickets and still be traceable. It wouldn't have to be the same 4 or more people every match or even the same spec.

Is that not a ticketing and demand issue, rather than a safe standing issue though? Eg, why not have more general sale now and blocks of four sold now? Do clubs who have more matches on general sale have better atmospheres due to fans being able to get together? Perhaps, but again that's ticket distribution.

I don't feel that standing now is unsafe, in upper tiers or steep stands yes, but otherwise no.

I do still feel the transition from standing in a seated area to standing in a safe standing rail seat area will not be as exciting as people are expecting.

A designated standing in front of your seat area is all that clubs need. A lot of this is conjecture of course because I haven't stood in a rail seat so hence I can only say in my opinion having a rail every two rows won't make it better, in fact you may even get people just leaning on them watching the match more casually.





Offline Priest078

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If standing is so dangerous why can you still do it at lower league games and rugby? why not outlaw it?

Offline Peter McGurk

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Is that not a ticketing and demand issue, rather than a safe standing issue though? Eg, why not have more general sale now and blocks of four sold now? Do clubs who have more matches on general sale have better atmospheres due to fans being able to get together? Perhaps, but again that's ticket distribution.

I don't feel that standing now is unsafe, in upper tiers or steep stands yes, but otherwise no.

I do still feel the transition from standing in a seated area to standing in a safe standing rail seat area will not be as exciting as people are expecting.

A designated standing in front of your seat area is all that clubs need. A lot of this is conjecture of course because I haven't stood in a rail seat so hence I can only say in my opinion having a rail every two rows won't make it better, in fact you may even get people just leaning on them watching the match more casually.

It's not a rail every two rows (of seats), it's two people every one row!

They isn't much room for lolling about. It is like standing in a crowd but without the surges from front to back. Have a look at the FSF website and the reaction of fans in Germany to the rail system.

The point about ticketing is the club would be able to get almost twice as many people in at a lower ticket price. Not because they want to sell cheaper tickets but because they can offer something to more people. A 60k all-seater stadium would be about 70k with a standing kop.

Standing in a seating area is dangerous and prolonged standing there is specifically outlawed in current regulations
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:39:48 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Anfieldite

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It's not a rail every two rows (of seats), it's two people every one row!

They isn't much room for lolling about. It is like standing in a crowd but without the surges from front to back. Have a look at the FSF website and the reaction of fans in Germany to the rail system.

The point about ticketing is the club would be able to get almost twice as many people in at a lower ticket price. Not because they want to sell cheaper tickets but because they can offer something to more people. A 60k all-seater stadium would be about 70k with a standing kop.

Standing in a seating area is dangerous and prolonged standing there is specifically outlawed in current regulations

My understanding of the standard model is that a row is just over half the tread depths of a normal new row, so two rows per seat. (400mm treads. Kop is 660mm, standard new treads min 700mm but often to 800-850mm). Whether safe standing is adapted to the existing build changes matters.

You then have an allocated position eg row 60a, seat 100, with the row behind row 60b, seat 100.
If 4 friends went together they could still be say in a line of 4, or 2x2, just like now, only they'd be more compact.

There will be a 'slight' atmospheric advantage to fans being more compacted together but I doubt it would be as 'significant' as people would expect which is basicly all I'm arguing. (slight meaning less than significant but I hope you get what I mean without the need for a tangent!)

Yes you can fit more people in but atmosphere still works in a similar mode. ie one main vocal area with the rest only joining in depending on the match, and on the match circumstances. So if you're not near that vocal area, the average person would be stood quiet for most of the match.

Another advantage of safe standing would be that the main vocal area could return to the middle of the Kop rather than at the back of the Kop. How you do that I don't know.


The seperate debate we're having regarding the safety of standing in seated areas, I still stand by that if it's a lower tier, if it's a shallow gradient (rules say 25 degrees), then it's safe, oh throw in no aisle seats sold too.

Offline Peter McGurk

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My understanding of the standard model is that a row is just over half the tread depths of a normal new row, so two rows per seat. (400mm treads. Kop is 660mm, standard new treads min 700mm but often to 800-850mm). Whether safe standing is adapted to the existing build changes matters.

You then have an allocated position eg row 60a, seat 100, with the row behind row 60b, seat 100.
If 4 friends went together they could still be say in a line of 4, or 2x2, just like now, only they'd be more compact.

There will be a 'slight' atmospheric advantage to fans being more compacted together but I doubt it would be as 'significant' as people would expect which is basicly all I'm arguing. (slight meaning less than significant but I hope you get what I mean without the need for a tangent!)

Yes you can fit more people in but atmosphere still works in a similar mode. ie one main vocal area with the rest only joining in depending on the match, and on the match circumstances. So if you're not near that vocal area, the average person would be stood quiet for most of the match.

Another advantage of safe standing would be that the main vocal area could return to the middle of the Kop rather than at the back of the Kop. How you do that I don't know.


The seperate debate we're having regarding the safety of standing in seated areas, I still stand by that if it's a lower tier, if it's a shallow gradient (rules say 25 degrees), then it's safe, oh throw in no aisle seats sold too.

Whatever you or I think about the relative safety of standing in seated areas, it is by definition unsafe and it is legislated against as such. On the other hand, standing in a correctly designed standing area is safe and there are regulations for that too. We can stand to watch at an away game in the cup against a team from the lower divisions perfectly legally.

We are not allowed to stand in the top two divisions only because of the Taylor Report recommendations for reasons of 'comfort', 'improved safety' but primarily as a means of controlling Hooliganism - to calm the crowd down and to make it more policeable.

Standing together whether 2x2 or in a line or just together will help the crowd act as 'one'. Yes the centre was always a hot spot and it led but you may remember the amazing speed at which the whole kop reacted as one. Outsiders said it was as if there was an invisible conductor. Of course there was none.

But more importantly, more general sales will allow movement (from back to middle say) and lower prices would revolutionise the demographics of the kop. That will be a significant shift. The older (and quieter) generation will gravitate to the (new seats in the) stands and a younger and more energetic generation will have greater access and surely will make more noise.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:43:33 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Anfieldite

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Whatever you or I think about the relative safety of standing in seated areas, it is by definition unsafe and it is legislated against as such. On the other hand, standing in a correctly designed standing area is safe and there are regulations for that too. We can stand to watch at an away game in the cup against a team from the lower divisions perfectly legally.

We are not allowed to stand in the top two divisions only because of the Taylor Report recommendations for reasons of 'comfort', 'improved safety' but primarily as a means of controlling Hooliganism - to calm the crowd down and to make it more policeable.

Standing together whether 2x2 or in a line or just together will help the crowd act as 'one'. Yes the centre was always a hot spot and it led but you may remember the amazing speed at which the whole kop reacted as one. Outsiders said it was as if there was an invisible conductor. Of course there was none.

But more importantly, more general sales will allow movement (from back to middle say) and lower prices would revolutionise the demographics of the kop. That will be a significant shift. The older (and quieter) generation will gravitate to the (new seats in the) stands and a younger and more energetic generation will have greater access and surely will make more noise.

If safe standing areas did come in I certainly wouldn't expect them to be the size of the Kop, prepare more for 2-3000 or you may be disappointed, or at least have a back up plan in your mind for that scenario. Consider that they could be those used for those hotspots. Could you get that transferred to the middle sunk in the stand enough for behind to officially sit even though they'll probably unofficially stand? For those not in the hotspot, the spreading you mention was incident or occasion related atmosphere. You'll still get that and more commonly so if the hotspot is centralised.


What I was getting at is in your average league game on the terraced Kop if you weren't in the hotspot it wasn't constant singing. The songs would only get loud to where I was for a few songs at the beginning, after a goal or after some good play etc pretty much as now in fact. People have an image of the entire Kop being 90 minutes of singing in a 0-0 v Leicester in the league. It wasn't. 

The following fans who grow up to be too old or leaving the area 10 years later can only do so if there's room for them elsewhere, should be ok in a larger capacity.   

Yes there is a distinction between what is safe and what is classed as legally safe. However, on away games when they know there will be persistant standing they take measures to make it safe as in remove aisle seats and front row seats. So it is then only a case of against the regulations.   

Offline Peter McGurk

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If safe standing areas did come in I certainly wouldn't expect them to be the size of the Kop, prepare more for 2-3000 or you may be disappointed, or at least have a back up plan in your mind for that scenario. Consider that they could be those used for those hotspots. Could you get that transferred to the middle sunk in the stand enough for behind to officially sit even though they'll probably unofficially stand? For those not in the hotspot, the spreading you mention was incident or occasion related atmosphere. You'll still get that and more commonly so if the hotspot is centralised.


What I was getting at is in your average league game on the terraced Kop if you weren't in the hotspot it wasn't constant singing. The songs would only get loud to where I was for a few songs at the beginning, after a goal or after some good play etc pretty much as now in fact. People have an image of the entire Kop being 90 minutes of singing in a 0-0 v Leicester in the league. It wasn't. 

The following fans who grow up to be too old or leaving the area 10 years later can only do so if there's room for them elsewhere, should be ok in a larger capacity.   

Yes there is a distinction between what is safe and what is classed as legally safe. However, on away games when they know there will be persistant standing they take measures to make it safe as in remove aisle seats and front row seats. So it is then only a case of against the regulations.   

No mate, sunken areas won’t work. Yes, there were quiet games and quiet parts of games on the Spion Kop too but they were rather fewer and further apart than they are now. If you think standing will be no noisier than sitting is now, that's not really borne out by experience.

And really, atmosphere is not about singing. Singing is the least of it. It's the roars, the gasps, the encouragement at every corner, every 'hand-ball!', foul and man-on that makes the difference. That comes from a crowd acting together - as one.

And then there's the sheer weight of numbers. Clearly 20,000 have the potential to make a lot more noise than 12,000 in the same space.

The distinction between what is safe and what is a legally safe design can be a potential criminal prosecution and a short stay at HM’s pleasure.

The point about away games against Exeter in the FA Cup for example is you can STAND, perfect legally and perfectly safely. Today and within the law. Yet if Exeter play us at Anfield, they must sit - aisle seats removed or not. Front row seats are removed to conform with UEFA regulations for provision of camera positions - not safety.
« Last Edit: September 1, 2013, 11:06:46 pm by Peter McGurk »

Offline Anfieldite

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #226 on: September 1, 2013, 11:28:11 pm »
No mate, sunken areas won’t work. Yes, there were quiet games and quiet parts of games on the Spion Kop too but they were rather fewer and further apart than they are now. If you think standing will be no noisier than sitting is now, that's not really borne out by experience.

The distinction between what is safe and what is legally safe is a potential criminal prosecution and a short stay at HM’s pleasure.

The point about away games against Exeter in the FA Cup for example is you can STAND, perfect legally and perfectly safely. Today and within the law. Yet if Exeter play us at Anfield, they must sit - aisle seats removed or not. Front row seats are removed to conform with UEFA regulations for provision of camera positions - not safety.

Sometimes front rows in upper tier away ends are not sold due to previous persistant stand in order to make them safe, I think it was Man U away to Sunderland.

Look I think we're losing track a bit of what we're arguing towards! Someone said something like 'standing in seated areas was unsafe' rather than along the lines of 'unfairly classed as unsafe' so that is what I queried.

I also know that standing is noisier than sitting, that's what I was saying when talking about the hardcore, but there were quieter parts of the Kop as there is now. To be honest I can't remember what relevance that had to my original point though.

Standing in seats v Safe standing rails.
The advantages atmosphere wise I can see more people for the same area in the hardcore.

If you could move that hardcore centrally somehow then that will help too as it would be closer to everyone. I would query if it will lose some volume within the hardcore though as it would not be as close to the roof.

I really cannot see it being allowed for any bigger than a hardcore though. So how would you suggest you make it more central if it cannot be sunken? Remove the couple of rows that would be directly behind it maybe?

Thinking about it, if there was a safe standing area in the Kop for a thousand or 2,  then you'd probably be looking at it in the middle corners (eg, block 202 or 208), the middle blocks will be less steep than at the back, plus there's no one behind.
« Last Edit: September 1, 2013, 11:40:16 pm by Anfieldite »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #227 on: September 2, 2013, 12:07:45 am »
Sometimes front rows in upper tier away ends are not sold due to previous persistant stand in order to make them safe, I think it was Man U away to Sunderland.

Look I think we're losing track a bit of what we're arguing towards! Someone said something like 'standing in seated areas was unsafe' rather than along the lines of 'unfairly classed as unsafe' so that is what I queried.

I also know that standing is noisier than sitting, that's what I was saying when talking about the hardcore, but there were quieter parts of the Kop as there is now. To be honest I can't remember what relevance that had to my original point though.

Standing in seats v Safe standing rails.
The advantages atmosphere wise I can see more people for the same area in the hardcore.

If you could move that hardcore centrally somehow then that will help too as it would be closer to everyone. I would query if it will lose some volume within the hardcore though as it would not be as close to the roof.

I really cannot see it being allowed for any bigger than a hardcore though. So how would you suggest you make it more central if it cannot be sunken? Remove the couple of rows that would be directly behind it maybe?

Thinking about it, if there was a safe standing area in the Kop for a thousand or 2,  then you'd probably be looking at it in the middle corners (eg, block 202 or 208), the middle blocks will be less steep than at the back, plus there's no one behind.

Your point was that there wouldn’t be much difference in atmosphere between standing in seating areas and standing in standing areas, which point you seem to have given up on.

You cannot have a sunken area of standing in the middle. What happens if everyone in the area lower down stands up? oops (unless you like looking at someone’s arse for half the match)

For a sunken standing area to work it would have to be at the front but then when playing a European game, everyone would have to sit down. Oops again (unless you want to climb out of the pit to see the game).

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #228 on: September 4, 2013, 10:24:24 pm »
From the echo (i think) tonight:

Joe anderson with regards to the publics support of the regeneration plans following a public meeting

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“In the coming weeks we will  use this information to refine our  proposals and to undertake  another listening and  consultation exercise."


Apologies for not being sure where its come from saw it on twitter...

Its very slow this process eh?
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@Robbie9Fowler robbie fowler
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #229 on: September 4, 2013, 10:30:31 pm »
It's how it goes when it's done properly and when it's not done properly everyone gets the knives out.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #230 on: September 4, 2013, 10:31:21 pm »
It's how it goes when it's done properly and when it's not done properly everyone gets the knives out.

And when it is to be honest.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #231 on: September 4, 2013, 10:32:31 pm »
It's how it goes when it's done properly and when it's not done properly everyone gets the knives out.

Not getting the knives out i think you'll find ive been supportive of the regeneration on here and twitter, i just thought with the movement made another consultation wouldnt be needed.

Things do need to be quicker.
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 PLEASE Sign Kevin Williams 15yeatr life ended at Hillsborough. His inquest is urgent for his terminally ill mum. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/40925

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #232 on: September 4, 2013, 10:33:57 pm »
Not getting the knives out i think you'll find ive been supportive of the regeneration on here and twitter, i just thought with the movement made another consultation wouldnt be needed.

I think he is on about others mate, not you.

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Things do need to be quicker.

They can only move as fast as the process allows to be honest.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #233 on: September 4, 2013, 10:45:16 pm »
Not getting the knives out i think you'll find ive been supportive of the regeneration on here and twitter, i just thought with the movement made another consultation wouldnt be needed.

Things do need to be quicker.

I know you're not but if you don't do it absolutely right, there's way too many thinking you're doing it absolutely wrong.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #234 on: September 5, 2013, 12:16:14 pm »
I think the safe standing thing is a great idea myself -would get the matchgoing experience back to more what it was like when I was a regular.

But, and its a big but, the one proviso is that groups of mates have to be able to stand together. Otherwise, most of the atmosphere benefit of a standing crowd would be lost. You're still just as likely to be a miserable git if you are at the game on your own irrespective of whether you are standing or sitting. But with a big gang of like minded mates, well that's a whole different dynamic.

I'd prefer  making any safe standing area an unreserved stand [although you'd still have to buy your tickets in advance, like now]. Then, just like the old Kop, if you want a good spec, you get there early. This helps build the atmosphere before a game too.

Alternatively, if the club wanted to keep the reserved seat structure, it could still be done through the membership scheme.

For instance, I'm a memeber at Lancs cricket club, and seating for members is generally unreserved. However, for test matches it isnt, but whenever you buy test match tickets via the Lancs membership portal, they always ask you if you want to sit by another member [or members]. It works great.

I realise its a whole different scale in footy, but it would be dead easy to have membership software with a 'preferences' page, which you could update with your mates details so you were all kept together.

Just a thought like.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #235 on: September 5, 2013, 12:22:19 pm »

I'd prefer  making any safe standing area an unreserved stand [although you'd still have to buy your tickets in advance, like now]. Then, just like the old Kop, if you want a good spec, you get there early. This helps build the atmosphere before a game too.

There's no chance of that. Knowing who has what ticket for what seat or standing place is a vital part of crowd policing these days.
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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #236 on: September 5, 2013, 12:28:03 pm »
There would be no reason you couldn't implement a system to allow friends to sit together, but just allowing you to turn up and stand where you want isn't the way to do it.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #237 on: September 5, 2013, 01:59:22 pm »


I'd prefer  making any safe standing area an unreserved stand [although you'd still have to buy your tickets in advance, like now]. Then, just like the old Kop, if you want a good spec, you get there early. This helps build the atmosphere before a game too.



Problem with the unreserved idea is that more would automatically gravitate towards the middle which is what used to happen in the old kop, and prob in all other unreserved terraced areas back in the 80's.  Then you'd potentially have a problem with too many crowding into the middle with only small pockets staying to the sides.

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #238 on: September 5, 2013, 02:36:13 pm »
General sales for each match in groups of specific seats/standing spaces to members would address the policing issues and the standing together issues. Continued stewarding would eliminate the bunching in the centre.
« Last Edit: September 5, 2013, 02:45:15 pm by Peter McGurk »

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Re: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)
« Reply #239 on: September 10, 2013, 10:51:13 pm »
could you  not pay on the gate again and get given a ticket on your way in meaning you have a ticket and if your with your mates your tickets will all be together