Author Topic: FSG discussion thread  (Read 743575 times)

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8120 on: January 20, 2023, 04:21:47 pm »
Sigh  ::)


It's true though and no amount of eye rolling will change that fact.

That's not to say that neither you or your opinions don't matter,they just don't matter as much  :lickin
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Offline blert596

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8121 on: January 20, 2023, 04:31:02 pm »
They have a sustainable model, one in, one out moderator-wise. When one loses their mind and is found under a park bench muttering about net-spend and sportswashing, covered
in Wagon Wheels and saliva; they can draft in another one incentivised with Kit kats and Greggs vouchers.

There may be a free spot coming up soon. 24/7 is apparently on his way to Dundee in a right state

All the badge kissing in the world don't make up for the fact that they are, frankly, not Liverpool Football Club. It's not their fault. Its just how it is.

Offline Boston always unofficial

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8122 on: January 20, 2023, 05:09:56 pm »
I don't understand why linking the FSG with Trump ? John Henry is from Boston a state that is considered one of the most Liberal states in the US, more Liberal than any place in the UK, I know that doesn't mean he himself is a Liberal, but from the articles I read it seemed that 90% of the donations went to the Democrats which means that the  FSG are mostly Liberal.
 
My guess is they 'donate' to stuff that'll help grease the wheels to get stuff done,so in Boston that is democrats.The area around Fenway was ripe for development and they took full advantage but ya gotta sort those permits.Don't  be fooled by Liberal Boston/Massachusetts,we had Mitt Romney as Governor and just got rid of Charlie Baker(R) who served 2 terms.It is still a bastard to get a drink or food late night and then ya can't get home cos the buses and trains stop running.Puritan ghosts run deep!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 05:46:26 pm by Boston always unofficial »

Offline 24/7

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8123 on: January 20, 2023, 05:24:46 pm »
There may be a free spot coming up soon. 24/7 is apparently on his way to Dundee in a right state
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8124 on: January 20, 2023, 05:27:36 pm »
Is there any FSG investor showing up at Anfield wearing MAGA hats, making the hoardings have MyPillow ads or hosting Viktor Orban in the club level? If not then why is this even a point of conversation? Judas priest....

Offline 4pool

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8125 on: January 20, 2023, 05:37:55 pm »
MAGA hat you say...

Is that Make Anfield Great Again?  :P


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Offline Red Beret

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8126 on: January 20, 2023, 05:42:53 pm »
We are not most clubs. We are the most successful club in the history of English football.

Aye.

Obviously nobody with sense would want to see the integrity of the club compromised by a Sportswasher, but at $4bn the options are pretty limited. It's no accident that the Glazers put United up for sale right after FSG put LFC on the market either.

About the only crumb of comfort I would take from a Qatar takeover would be knowing the Abu Dhabi and Saudi FC fans would be fecking livid and bricking it. But that's a very very small crumb. As has been said on here before, if there's one thing that will turn football fans, the media, pundits, commentators and the government against sportswashing is if Liverpool are the club they want to buy. Watch the fit and proper person's test suddenly grow some teeth if a bid comes in.


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Offline G Richards

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8127 on: January 20, 2023, 06:25:54 pm »
I'm trying to keep an open mind about prospective new owners, and not make rash statements about binning the whole thing off.

If we end up with an owner I don't like, I would still intend to support the team. LFC means too much to me and I can't imagine that I would give it up. I understand there will potentially be a certain element of hypocrisy, but I would maintain that I support the team, and not the owners. I might even imagine the ghost of Shanks saying that they don't even come into it, as they are just there to write the cheques.

The Holy Trinity would continue to be the manager, fans and players.

If we do get bought by say, QIA, I wouldn't want any cheating. One of the things I hate about Man City is the fake financial arrangement they have at all levels of the club. Sponsorship, salaries, even transfer fees... probably more than meets the eye with all of it.

So I would want us to be run fair and square, within the parameters of whatever the rules allow, and if it is QIA or someone like that, so be it.

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8128 on: January 20, 2023, 06:35:23 pm »
I'm trying to keep an open mind about prospective new owners, and not make rash statements about binning the whole thing off.

If we end up with an owner I don't like, I would still intend to support the team. LFC means too much to me and I can't imagine that I would give it up. I understand there will potentially be a certain element of hypocrisy, but I would maintain that I support the team, and not the owners. I might even imagine the ghost of Shanks saying that they don't even come into it, as they are just there to write the cheques.

The Holy Trinity would continue to be the manager, fans and players.

If we do get bought by say, QIA, I wouldn't want any cheating. One of the things I hate about Man City is the fake financial arrangement they have at all levels of the club. Sponsorship, salaries, even transfer fees... probably more than meets the eye with all of it.

So I would want us to be run fair and square, within the parameters of whatever the rules allow, and if it is QIA or someone like that, so be it.


QIA are literally the Qatari state,they'd have to be mad to buy us and FSG would have to be madder to sell any crumb of investment to them.

We're not Mancs,Geordies or any other set,we're known fighters that never give up,it'd be like trying to have a wash in slurry.
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8129 on: January 20, 2023, 07:12:29 pm »
Liberals in the USA are not even close to being as Liberal as those here,they're not even as Liberal as most Tories.

Yeah, I get fucked off when I hear American's calling their liberals - the left. Whilst they're right. Just not as right as republicans.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8130 on: January 20, 2023, 07:12:54 pm »

QIA are literally the Qatari state,they'd have to be mad to buy us and FSG would have to be madder to sell any crumb of investment to them.

We're not Mancs,Geordies or any other set,we're known fighters that never give up,it'd be like trying to have a wash in slurry.

Yeah, I think perceptions are getting skewed because people just want to see the back of FSG now. Although their broadly positive reign (mainly thanks to Klopp) has been filled with various PR disasters, they've really spoiled their legacy over the way the club has been run down since the end of last season, while they've checked out, and the general complacency in the transfer market in recent years which has threw away what was a squad that could compete on all fronts.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8131 on: January 20, 2023, 07:26:51 pm »
Yeah, I get fucked off when I hear American's calling their liberals - the left. Whilst they're right. Just not as right as republicans.

Uhh, love to generalize much? I don't really follow UK politics but it sounds like Starmer if elected would still follow some Tory policies, so does that mean all Labour or those on the left aren't really left? No as that would be ridiculous. Same shit here. Just because Clinton era and beyond national Dems are generally to the right of the liberals in the EU doesn't mean all are and it's completely ridiculous to say otherwise.

Offline BornRedSince76

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8132 on: January 20, 2023, 07:30:48 pm »
If everyone else in the top end of the table are getting financial steroids then we will eventually  need the same? What’s the alternative, accept over the (very) long-term a bleak future where we become a mid-table team with failing infrastructure, reduced commercial streams, second tier players and managers?

2 questions are 1) do we agree to take financial steroids to level the playing field and then 2) do we change the answer to the first question dependent on who the takeover person / country is involved ?

Personally I’ve spent a lot of time in a lot of countries, and most people are decent humans.

Offline Red Beret

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8133 on: January 20, 2023, 07:34:54 pm »

QIA are literally the Qatari state,they'd have to be mad to buy us and FSG would have to be madder to sell any crumb of investment to them.

We're not Mancs,Geordies or any other set,we're known fighters that never give up,it'd be like trying to have a wash in slurry.

You think the Qatari state cares what Liverpool fans want?  There are plenty of fans out there who will happily turn a blind eye as long as expensive players turn up at the gates every season and pots fall out of the sky into the club's lap.

This isn't the Hicks and Gillett era; supporters had leverage over them because they were incompetent and in debt. Qatar will just shrug their shoulders at fans in the stadium protesting about the club winning stuff with dodgy money. Fans who walk away will be easily replaced. And if FSG retain any stake/interest in the club, such protests will likely only motivate them to fully sell up and get out. Then the fans will be somebody else's problem.

In any case, I suspect a sportswasher at Liverpool will act very differently than at Abu Dhabi or Saudi FC. They'll do things slow, as the club is an established name with its own actual history and heritage, recently successful, and independently wealthy. It will be a gradual seduction.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8134 on: January 20, 2023, 07:54:56 pm »
You think the Qatari state cares what Liverpool fans want?  There are plenty of fans out there who will happily turn a blind eye as long as expensive players turn up at the gates every season and pots fall out of the sky into the club's lap.

This isn't the Hicks and Gillett era; supporters had leverage over them because they were incompetent and in debt. Qatar will just shrug their shoulders at fans in the stadium protesting about the club winning stuff with dodgy money. Fans who walk away will be easily replaced. And if FSG retain any stake/interest in the club, such protests will likely only motivate them to fully sell up and get out. Then the fans will be somebody else's problem.

In any case, I suspect a sportswasher at Liverpool will act very differently than at Abu Dhabi or Saudi FC. They'll do things slow, as the club is an established name with its own actual history and heritage, recently successful, and independently wealthy. It will be a gradual seduction.


I was more trying to stop the divvies in here from constantly posting that QIA are private investors and have nothing to do with the twats in charge.

But yeah,I do think that the banners and protests would put them off.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 07:58:19 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8135 on: January 20, 2023, 07:57:09 pm »
Uhh, love to generalize much? I don't really follow UK politics but it sounds like Starmer if elected would still follow some Tory policies, so does that mean all Labour or those on the left aren't really left? No as that would be ridiculous. Same shit here. Just because Clinton era and beyond national Dems are generally to the right of the liberals in the EU doesn't mean all are and it's completely ridiculous to say otherwise.


It's a fact that what you call the left would barely qualify as UK Tories.

You would know that if you followed UK politics  ::)

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Offline Larse

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8136 on: January 20, 2023, 08:41:06 pm »
Overall they did a good job to be honest. If they sell they will leave the club in a much, much, much better state than what they bought it in: New training facilities, renewed stadium, won titles. Not much to complain.

What baffles me to this day - and dont tell me its hindsight because everyone with a brain said it at the time aswell - is that we didnt invest heavily after we won the CL and the season after the PL. Every player in the world would have loved to join us at the time and there is no way we didn't have money after reaching the CL final two seasons in a row. There was some great players available at the time including a generational talent in Haaland (and yes it was clear he is something special even when he was at salzburg). We ended up signing his teammate minamino for 8m...  Also slept on players like Rodri, Bruno, de ligt, de jong. Most importantly though we had gaps in our squad (e.g. CB 20/21) that we didnt fill despite them being obvious.

I even remember the club briefing the press that we are waiting for a generational talent to become available to spend our money on but when it happened we slept.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 08:45:20 pm by Larse »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8137 on: January 20, 2023, 08:48:52 pm »
Overall they did a good job to be honest. If they sell they will leave the club in a much, much, much better state than what they bought it in: New training facilities, renewed stadium, won titles. Not much to complain.

What baffles me to this day - and dont tell me its hindsight because everyone with a brain said it at the time aswell - is that we didnt invest heavily after we won the CL and the season after the PL. Every player in the world would have loved to join us at the time and there is no way we didn't have money after reaching the CL final two seasons in a row. There was some great players available at the time including a generational talent in Haaland (and yes it was clear he is something special even when he was at salzburg). We ended up signing his teammate minamino for 8m...

I even remember the club briefing the press that we are waiting for a generational talent to become available to spend our money on but when it happened we slept.

That season is used a lot to criticise but I don’t quite agree. When we went big there was always going to be a fallow period. In January 2018 we got Van Dijk and in Summer 2018 we got Fabinho, Alisson and Keita. That was a lot of players so I don’t think we needed any more in Summer 2019.

Then in Summer 2020 we got Jota and Thiago which was good. We also would have seen a huge jump in wages those couple of years. It’s after that we can start asking questions really. January 2021 was a farce and I still don’t understand why all we signed in summer 21 was Konate. But at least there is the excuse of COVID around that time and if you have a conservative set of owners then that was not the right time.

But without a shadow of a doubt, there are absolutely no excuses as to why all we signed this past summer was Nunez and basically two youngsters in Carvalho and Ramsey. The club are rightly getting criticised (i include Jurgen as well in that criticism) in terms of what they didn’t last summer and they deserve the position they are in. They were asleep at the vehicle and if they don’t get top four then they will continue to get hammered.

Offline G Richards

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8138 on: January 20, 2023, 09:59:53 pm »

I was more trying to stop the divvies in here from constantly posting that QIA are private investors and have nothing to do with the twats in charge.

But yeah,I do think that the banners and protests would put them off.

In case I’m lumped in with that, I very much understand that any significant funds from Qatar would either be of government origin, or so closely intertwined with government that the notion of private wealth is anathema.

And at that point it wouldn’t stop me supporting LFC, for the reasons I gave above.

Football governance and finance has long since lost the plot. Who would have thought, for example, that fans from a socialist leaning city would be ok with the club being owned by hedge fund managers, who stand to make more than 10x on their investment if they sell up. It’s ridiculous, but this is world we have.

If we get a new owner that I personally disapprove of, I will continue to support the team and will bear in mind Shankly’s Holy Trinity.

What matters is the manager, supporters and players. That’s it.



Offline Fromola

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8139 on: January 20, 2023, 10:09:17 pm »
If they'd backed Klopp as they should have in the market since CL win in 2019 I don't think they'd be looking to sell the club because we'd still be right up there and have a squad to challenge on all fronts, with arguably more trophies in the bag.

It's a mess entirely of their own making and now we're losing key staff left, right and centre to boot.
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Offline Red Beret

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8140 on: January 20, 2023, 10:10:22 pm »

Football governance and finance has long since lost the plot. Who would have thought, for example, that fans from a socialist leaning city would be ok with the club being owned by hedge fund managers, who stand to make more than 10x on their investment if they sell up. It’s ridiculous, but this is world we have.

If we get a new owner that I personally disapprove of, I will continue to support the team and will bear in mind Shankly’s Holy Trinity.

What matters is the manager, supporters and players. That’s it.

So you're basically saying, "They're all at it, they're all corrupt, we may as well be too"?

Shanks said a lot of things, like football being more important than life and death. He was wrong on that too. The game has moved on, and you can't separate an owner from a club. Most of them want the limelight. By your own logic, there is no "Holy Trinity" anymore, because everyone in the game is corrupt.

As for us being okay with hedgefund managers, I think you forget the jam we were in at the time. That particular point has a whiff of whataboutism to it.

But by all means, you do you. It's hard to walk away from something we're emotionally invested in, and I prefer people to be honest rather than rationalise or find ways to justify their position.
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Offline Fromola

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Re: Age profile of the team
« Reply #8141 on: January 21, 2023, 08:58:03 am »
Let's face it Klopp has had an austerity budget post-2018 (the Coutinho bought us a title and CL winning spine year) to maximise FSG's profit margin for when they sell the club for 4 billion. These are your real cold, hard headed American businessmen who have been forgiven for that  purely because they weren't Hicks and Gillett (and because of what Klopp has achieved till now on an austerity budget).

Problem now is the taps are turned off even more as they try to sell the club and as Klopp said yesterday we can't afford not to spend anymore with what our rivals are doing. Something has to change, whether it's investment or a sale. Obviously that brings its own problems (who buys us?) but we're at the point where staying as we are will see us slide down the table and be well and truly left behind and then it takes major investment, for a number of years, to get us back again, only with an inferior manager if no Klopp.
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Offline John C

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8142 on: January 21, 2023, 09:06:11 am »
There's other threads to discuss Milner's extension please folks :)

Offline keyop

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8143 on: January 21, 2023, 09:10:53 am »

Why is it always one or the other, chelsea and arsenal and spurs and West Ham and Aston Villa aren’t owned by sports washers by they outspend us by £100s of millions at the moment and arsenal made nearly €300mil less than us and didn’t have champions league football.
This type of view is often posted on here, but it always needs context.

What others spend is largely irrelevant unless they are in the same position as us and are competing for trophies.

West Ham, Villa and Spurs win nothing, so them spending more than us isn't a barometer of anything.

Chelsea are massively in debt, have just been taken over, had their previous owner deported (writing off £2billion of debt in the process), plus sack their managers every 18 months, and aren't exactly flying high at the moment, with a manager under massive pressure (which we can make worse for them today).

Arsenal struggled to compete for the title for a very long time, and are only doing so now after clearing down stadium debt, getting rid of older players, and slowly rebuilding their entire squad over the last few years under a new manager.

So when comparing other clubs spending, it's a pointless exercise without context.

Similarly with City - they're cheating, and using artificially inflated state sponsorship deals (and player sales) to have the 'highest revenue' in the league - despite everyone in European football knowing its a complete sham (except UEFA and the FA/PL, clearly).

Utd are massively in debt, and have been in the dark ages for over a decade,  with a crumbling stadium, fan protests, a revolving door of managers and systems, and no proper sporting structures. They're only looking better after throwing well over a £billion at players and contracts since 2013, getting rid of Ronaldo, and finally finding a pragmatic manager who won't tolerate egos or player power (although the jury's still out on whether their good form will continue). They're also a prime example of how if you throw enough money, managers and wages at a project for long enough, then eventually something might work.

Newcastle are sportswashers and having their best season by a mile, after being relegation candidates and a laughing stock not too long ago.

Spurs blow hot and cold and always will, and won't win anything whilst paying off their £1billion shiny cheese factory (just as Arsenal struggled after the Emirates stadium was completed).

So the question is - which of the above clubs have regularly challenged for (and won) trophies over the last 5 years - without either cheating, or going massively into debt, or after having spent a very long time drifting after years of squad rebuilding and multiple 'transition' seasons? There's also more factors to consider, such as our stadium redevelopment, Kirkby, increased wages, tying down our best players to new contracts, one of the worst injury records in the league, the Ox/Keita paradox, some key backroom staff leaving, new players bedding in, a change in playing style, plus the collective physical/mental fatigue after 5 seasons battling with the oil cheats (which has visibly affected both Jurgen and the squad).

So can we please stop these reductionist arguments like 'we've spent less than Villa', as they're utterly pointless comparisons - without considering the myriad factors, issues and challenges that explain why any given team is doing well or doing badly, or whether they're spending loads or being prudent.

This is clearly now a transition season, and if Arsenal win the title whilst Jurgen's building his next team, I'd be absolutely delighted. It would be a victory for good management, squad building and patience over sportswashing, sacking managers, and blatant cheating. This summer is a massive opportunity to finally let players go, free up money for new transfers and wages, and begin Jurgen's Liverpool 2.0 era which we all want to see.

Next season we'll have the new ARE stand open, we'll have cleared down more of the Main stand/Pandemic debt, we'll have increased matchday income, new players, key players back from injury, and hopefully a re-energised team, manager and
fanbase.

The future is very bright, and we need to tolerate seasons like this once in a while, and remember/appreciate the amazing journey we've had, and avoid using spending as a constant measure of our position. It's far more complex than that - as all the above examples demonstrate.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 09:58:24 am by keyop »
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8144 on: January 21, 2023, 09:15:01 am »
‘Nothing to see here - the futures bright’ is quite the take
It’s also quite something to list all the clubs above us in the league and explain how they’re all doing it wrong

Offline keyop

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8145 on: January 21, 2023, 09:26:49 am »
‘Nothing to see here - the futures bright’ is quite the take
It’s also quite something to list all the clubs above us in the league and explain how they’re all doing it wrong
Quite the opposite Jack.

If you'd read my post properly, it was about how those clubs are finally doing something right (or cheating...) after years of doing it wrong. Big difference.

If you don't think the futures bright, then that's your cloud, not mine.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8146 on: January 21, 2023, 09:37:49 am »
Quite the opposite Jack.

If you'd read my post properly, it was about how those clubs are finally doing something right (or cheating...) after years of doing it wrong. Big difference.

If you don't think the futures bright, then that's your cloud, not mine.

I don’t do Hopium 
If you want me to feel like the futures bright I need a) a structure at the club that can deliver success b) significant investment in the playing squad and c) a ruthless determination to build the next great team

Instead we’ve got a terrible recruitment structure and owners that aren’t invested in the footballing side of the business …. We’ve been at the point of the cycle where we need to invest for 12-18 months and it hasn’t happened and we’ve started saying the word transition without actually doing it

We don’t even know who will own the club next year … because the owners don’t know who will own the club next year
I’m all for getting excited for the future but it has to be based on something other than hand waving some huge problems we face in challenging again

Offline McSquared

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8147 on: January 21, 2023, 09:42:49 am »
‘Transition season’… haha, to what? Such a long winded post of nothingness. We are having a shit season because we have not invested what we need on the pitch

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8148 on: January 21, 2023, 09:50:58 am »
‘Transition season’… haha, to what? Such a long winded post of nothingness. We are having a shit season because we have not invested what we need on the pitch
Enlighten us with your insight. Everything I posted is what's actually been happening with us and other clubs, yet you just go down the very same reductionist route I referred to. Citing investment as the issue - despite £150m+ spent on Diaz, Nunez and Gakpo (plus significant wages) in only the last 12 months.

I'd much rather attempt to explain things using reason and logic than the endless, tedious 'spend more' soundbites that seem to be the go-to response whenever we hit a bad run of form.
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Offline arabliverpool90

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8149 on: January 21, 2023, 09:55:59 am »
How is the future is bright where we don't even know if the FSG are staying or leaving ? How is this transitional season when we have nearly the same squad as the previous season bar Mane ? And what makes you think the FSG are going to spend money if they stay ?

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8150 on: January 21, 2023, 10:00:11 am »
If this is a transition season, then its one thats been practically stumbled upon and is an excuse to just try to scrub out the fact that it is a shit season. I do actually think the future is bright (provided the ownership situation is resolved, either by new owners or FSG recommitting, because they are not at the moment). But lets not make out that whats happen this season was part of some master plan. Its a poor season and is a result of the decisions the manager and owners have decided to make.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8151 on: January 21, 2023, 10:10:43 am »
How is the future is bright where we don't even know if the FSG are staying or leaving ? How is this transitional season when we have nearly the same squad as the previous season bar Mane ? And what makes you think the FSG are going to spend money if they stay ?
I listed all the reasons that the future is bright - Jurgen's Liverpool 2.0, the new ARE (and the atmosphere /accessibility/income that brings), contracts coming to an end, players returning from injury, new players bedding in.....

The uncertainty around FSGs ownership doesn't mean the sky's falling in, or that we won't improve.

We've added Diaz, Nunez and Gakpo in the last 12 months, plus have Elliot, Carvalho, Bajetic and others developing. We'll add more in the summer, and hopefully resolve our midfield mess.

And the reason I think FSG will spend more money if they stay is also in my post. £150m plus wages on 3 players in 12 months. Whether we spent on the right positions is up for debate, but to say we won't spend in future is just being negative for the sake of it.

Everyone has their own viewpoint, but the constant negativity, doom-mongering and hyperbole when we have a bad run in recent seasons is as predictable as it is tiresome.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8152 on: January 21, 2023, 10:11:03 am »
This was their plan all along, must be an American thing.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8153 on: January 21, 2023, 10:13:29 am »
If this is a transition season, then its one thats been practically stumbled upon and is an excuse to just try to scrub out the fact that it is a shit season. I do actually think the future is bright (provided the ownership situation is resolved, either by new owners or FSG recommitting, because they are not at the moment). But lets not make out that whats happen this season was part of some master plan. Its a poor season and is a result of the decisions the manager and owners have decided to make.

Yep, it's just a disguise word for being shit most of the time. If anyone had written in August that they're expecting us to be mid table as it's a season of transition they'd have been absolutely destroyed for page after page with the usual "cry arse" "bed wetter" stuff. Anyone who wanted a midfielder was hammered as you "need to trust Klopp" "we've just proven we have a good enough squad". Now it's a transition season and we couldn't expect anything else. Hilarious.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8154 on: January 21, 2023, 10:19:04 am »
But lets not make out that whats happen this season was part of some master plan. Its a poor season and is a result of the decisions the manager and owners have decided to make.
Absolutely - that's why I said it's clear 'this is now' a transition season. By accident, rather than by design.

We've stumbled into this season through a range of collective decisions, injuries, bad luck, fatigue, planning (or lack of), and not buying a decent midfielder since summer 2020 - despite spending over £200m on other positions.

I'm under no illusion this is a mess that'll require some serious tidying up, but I remain optimistic despite an army of mood hoovers on every thread.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8155 on: January 21, 2023, 10:26:09 am »
Absolutely - that's why I said it's clear 'this is now' a transition season. By accident, rather than by design.

We've stumbled into this season through a range of collective decisions, injuries, bad luck, fatigue, planning (or lack of), and not buying a decent midfielder since summer 2020 - despite spending over £200m on other positions.

I'm under no illusion this is a mess that'll require some serious tidying up, but I remain optimistic despite an army of mood hoovers on every thread.

Excellent points, that is where most people will be at. As you say though, no reason to think it will be like this for ever. We just have to work through it for now and hopefully we will have extra investment to allow us to add the quality we need.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8156 on: January 21, 2023, 10:26:43 am »
"Shanks said a lot of things, like football being more important than life and death. He was wrong on that too".

He was being ironic but it keeps on being used glibly by the media and other commentators. It's a pity some supporters fall into the same trap. Anybody who knew anything about the great man would know he was not being serious.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8157 on: January 21, 2023, 10:28:21 am »
This type of view is often posted on here, but it always needs context.

What others spend is largely irrelevant unless they are in the same position as us and are competing for trophies.

West Ham, Villa and Spurs win nothing, so them spending more than us isn't a barometer of anything.

Chelsea are massively in debt, have just been taken over, had their previous owner deported (writing off £2billion of debt in the process), plus sack their managers every 18 months, and aren't exactly flying high at the moment, with a manager under massive pressure (which we can make worse for them today).

Arsenal struggled to compete for the title for a very long time, and are only doing so now after clearing down stadium debt, getting rid of older players, and slowly rebuilding their entire squad over the last few years under a new manager.

So when comparing other clubs spending, it's a pointless exercise without context.

Similarly with City - they're cheating, and using artificially inflated state sponsorship deals (and player sales) to have the 'highest revenue' in the league - despite everyone in European football knowing its a complete sham (except UEFA and the FA/PL, clearly).

Utd are massively in debt, and have been in the dark ages for over a decade,  with a crumbling stadium, fan protests, a revolving door of managers and systems, and no proper sporting structures. They're only looking better after throwing well over a £billion at players and contracts since 2013, getting rid of Ronaldo, and finally finding a pragmatic manager who won't tolerate egos or player power (although the jury's still out on whether their good form will continue). They're also a prime example of how if you throw enough money, managers and wages at a project for long enough, then eventually something might work.

Newcastle are sportswashers and having their best season by a mile, after being relegation candidates and a laughing stock not too long ago.

Spurs blow hot and cold and always will, and won't win anything whilst paying off their £1billion shiny cheese factory (just as Arsenal struggled after the Emirates stadium was completed).

So the question is - which of the above clubs have regularly challenged for (and won) trophies over the last 5 years - without either cheating, or going massively into debt, or after having spent a very long time drifting after years of squad rebuilding and multiple 'transition' seasons? There's also more factors to consider, such as our stadium redevelopment, Kirkby, increased wages, tying down our best players to new contracts, one of the worst injury records in the league, the Ox/Keita paradox, some key backroom staff leaving, new players bedding in, a change in playing style, plus the collective physical/mental fatigue after 5 seasons battling with the oil cheats (which has visibly affected both Jurgen and the squad).

So can we please stop these reductionist arguments like 'we've spent less than Villa', as they're utterly pointless comparisons - without considering the myriad factors, issues and challenges that explain why any given team is doing well or doing badly, or whether they're spending loads or being prudent.

This is clearly now a transition season, and if Arsenal win the title whilst Jurgen's building his next team, I'd be absolutely delighted. It would be a victory for good management, squad building and patience over sportswashing, sacking managers, and blatant cheating. This summer is a massive opportunity to finally let players go, free up money for new transfers and wages, and begin Jurgen's Liverpool 2.0 era which we all want to see.

Next season we'll have the new ARE stand open, we'll have cleared down more of the Main stand/Pandemic debt, we'll have increased matchday income, new players, key players back from injury, and hopefully a re-energised team, manager and
fanbase.

The future is very bright, and we need to tolerate seasons like this once in a while, and remember/appreciate the amazing journey we've had, and avoid using spending as a constant measure of our position. It's far more complex than that - as all the above examples demonstrate.

Good post as always.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8158 on: January 21, 2023, 10:29:51 am »
Absolutely - that's why I said it's clear 'this is now' a transition season. By accident, rather than by design.

We've stumbled into this season through a range of collective decisions, injuries, bad luck, fatigue, planning (or lack of), and not buying a decent midfielder since summer 2020 - despite spending over £200m on other positions.

I'm under no illusion this is a mess that'll require some serious tidying up, but I remain optimistic despite an army of mood hoovers on every thread.

It's only a transition season if we actually use it that way and are building towards something. At the moment we're still just relying mostly on the same players. Only Nunez and Elliott are new/young players getting any kind of decent minutes in the league. Milner has more than players like Carvalho, Ramsay, Bajcetic, Doak, Clark. And Ox is only a few behind Carvalho and ahead of the rest.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8159 on: January 21, 2023, 10:31:56 am »
"Shanks said a lot of things, like football being more important than life and death. He was wrong on that too".

He was being ironic but it keeps on being used glibly by the media and other commentators. It's a pity some supporters fall into the same trap. Anybody who knew anything about the great man would know he was not being serious.

Yep. Shame when people get that quote wrong

anyway.

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