Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1075401 times)

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5840 on: August 16, 2022, 12:02:22 am »
I think Diaz and then a kind of knock on effect as well of going Nunez and Elliott, if we do when he's back, means we can't ask a lot of players to do the same same thing, even if they were physically in their prime. the newer players just interpret their roles/potions different say the classic 18-20.side.

Diaz is way better suited to sitting wide and dribbling in then making off ball runs inside like Mane was or say Jota would be. Nunez isn't going to and we shouldn't want him to get on the ball around midfield like Firmino does.or Mane did end of last season. And to compensate for that you probably need your centre mids/8's more aggressively up the pitch. Elliott also plays super aggressive high and wide compared to others so kind of feels like we've trying to somewhat we did in 18-20, but with the midfield being way more aggresive in attack.


Said it in the pre-match thread but given the mix of players I really didn't think we needed Robertson bombing on. Diaz and Milner are already going to be pushed up and wide. Not sure it stops the goal today, Fabinho just over committed and left us nearly 4vs 2, but going forward it may help us retain possession and stop.counters a bit better

We didn't seem to really try anything too different in preseason and I'd be surprised if we suddenly made a big change like keeping a full back more reserved without plenty training time though

Yeah, I think in a lot of ways the mindset is and always has been to just "plug and play" for the squad as a whole. Long term that's probably for the best but short term there are instances where it can seem detrimental.

Offline PEG2K

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5841 on: August 16, 2022, 01:34:41 am »
Elliott looks faster than he ever has for us and crucially his reactions and speed over short distances are quick, which is really promising. The slightly worry I had playing him in midfield was whether it left us too open. Ironically I didn't expect us to look too open in spite of Elliott (who was fantastic offensively and defensively), rather than because of him. Regardless, in any midfield combination you want him in and around the box, not lugging it up and down the pitch covering because the other midfielders don't have the legs for it.

This might just be a slow-start or a blip in form for Fab but he is and always has been on the slow side. It requires an element of compromise, but it feels like we've gone way too far in the other direction and the players that are supposed to be shoring up that area aren't offering much offensively or defensively anymore, Thiago notwithstanding.
We have a problem playing Elliott in midfield. He is not a CM, or at least he's not playing like one. You can check the heat map for Palace game and see. He pretty much hugged the right wing like a traditional RM. Essentially we were playing 424 with Salah Elliott and Trent all occupying the same space in attack, while Fabinho and 36-y-o Milner doing the job of a 3-man midfield.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5842 on: August 16, 2022, 01:43:30 am »
We have a problem playing Elliott in midfield. He is not a CM, or at least he's not playing like one. You can check the heat map for Palace game and see. He pretty much hugged the right wing like a traditional RM. Essentially we were playing 424 with Salah Elliott and Trent all occupying the same space in attack, while Fabinho and 36-y-o Milner doing the job of a 3-man midfield.

He's probably not a CM, at least at this age and where he is for development. He also led the team in tackles and interceptions. It sounds like these were our only 3 fit midfielders though so /shrug.

Offline Egyptian36

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5843 on: August 16, 2022, 03:51:43 am »
We have a problem playing Elliott in midfield. He is not a CM, or at least he's not playing like one. You can check the heat map for Palace game and see. He pretty much hugged the right wing like a traditional RM. Essentially we were playing 424 with Salah Elliott and Trent all occupying the same space in attack, while Fabinho and 36-y-o Milner doing the job of a 3-man midfield.

We don't want a CM at this position but a playmaker. It was the plan since last season. I think part of the reason we did this because we became predictable and also to prepare for playing with a real striker instead of Firmino who is more of a playmaker than a striker. IMO our issue is the two players behind Elliott, Fabinho is slow for this set-up and Thiago/Naby next to him are not reliable. Us fans only think short term but the manager need to plan short and long term too.

Offline Knight

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5844 on: August 16, 2022, 06:24:23 am »
Henderson plays very wide too when he plays RCM. But he doesn’t have the energy or the technical ability of Elliot. The issue is, we don’t have the personnel to play this way without leaving us crazy wide open at the back. Thiago let’s us get away with it but it’s still not ideal. We’re searching for more creativity from our midfield but in the process we’ve sacrificed solidity. And I’m not convinced we’ve actually gained greater creativity when Thiago isn’t on the pitch.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5845 on: August 16, 2022, 02:56:39 pm »
:D

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5846 on: August 16, 2022, 04:45:53 pm »
Yeah, as I noted yesterday after the match we're not really having an issue with creating chances. Statsbomb has us tied with ManC and not the clear #1 but even still we've done enough offensively in both games to be at 6 points.

The issue is defense, we're currently 14th in xG against and and 19th in xG per shot. Basically our defending has not been good enough and that's why we are at 2 points.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5847 on: August 16, 2022, 04:53:20 pm »
Yeah, as I noted yesterday after the match we're not really having an issue with creating chances. Statsbomb has us tied with ManC and not the clear #1 but even still we've done enough offensively in both games to be at 6 points.

The issue is defense, we're currently 14th in xG against and and 19th in xG per shot. Basically our defending has not been good enough and that's why we are at 2 points.

We need to tighten up. You always feel we can score a goal in a game, certainly against most teams, but we're so easy to create good chances against.

City are no better at the back but they keep the ball, they dominate games in midfield. They won't give teams like Fulham a sniff.
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5848 on: August 22, 2022, 07:16:52 pm »
He's too honest to do it - but is Klopp fucking with the owners here and saying bring me a Midfielder asap (with the whole Naby thing)?

Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5849 on: August 22, 2022, 08:37:17 pm »
I think he needs a new template
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5850 on: August 22, 2022, 08:41:27 pm »
He's too honest to do it - but is Klopp fucking with the owners here and saying bring me a Midfielder asap (with the whole Naby thing)?
Fucking hell mate, you too?
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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5851 on: August 22, 2022, 08:48:22 pm »
Fucking hell mate, you too?

I don't think it's that unbelievable. When you have Fabinho available at least you don't need to start Milner. Milner was not good last game he has not been good this game.

Offline Kansti

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5852 on: August 22, 2022, 08:56:03 pm »
Ok I’m going to say it. I dislike the way we set up. Why tf is Salah who is our best goalscorer so wide? Why the hell Clint Eastwood still starting for us?

Offline Knight

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5853 on: August 22, 2022, 08:56:50 pm »
We knew Milderson was terrible in 2018. When you’re forced into it in 2022… yes a midfielder is pretty important.

Offline OOS

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5854 on: August 22, 2022, 08:56:58 pm »
I think he needs a new template

I think we have one, just that the players that make it work are injured or suspended for being a plonker.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5855 on: August 22, 2022, 08:57:55 pm »
Think it’ll take more than a few bad results before I start questioning the big man and his tactics.

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Offline Phineus

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5856 on: August 22, 2022, 08:58:10 pm »
We knew Milderson was terrible in 2018. When you’re forced into it in 2022… yes a midfielder is pretty important.

Yeah, this is grim in 2022 in a must win game away at Old Trafford. Sigh.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5857 on: August 22, 2022, 09:34:49 pm »
If Klopp has any weakness, it's too much loyalty to players when they're on the downwards trajectory.

I don't know whether it's stubbornness or FSG imposing financial constraints, but that midfield is terrible, and we can't rely on injury-prone Thiago or Keita.

Need at least one top-tier midfielder - someone with dynamism and tactical discipline. Then Bellingham next summer.

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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5858 on: August 22, 2022, 09:39:20 pm »
If Klopp has any weakness, it's too much loyalty to players when they're on the downwards trajectory.

I don't know whether it's stubbornness or FSG imposing financial constraints, but that midfield is terrible, and we can't rely on injury-prone Thiago or Keita.


Need at least one top-tier midfielder - someone with dynamism and tactical discipline. Then Bellingham next summer.

I think that's fair.

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5859 on: August 22, 2022, 09:42:29 pm »
I don't think it's that unbelievable. When you have Fabinho available at least you don't need to start Milner. Milner was not good last game he has not been good this game.

It's completely unbelievable because it's Jurgen Klopp, not some insecure no-mark chancer who hasn't the balls to make his own case to his bosses and so has to resort to cheap shite like that. The same with the claim that he's using his media appearances to fight a battle against the owners.

As if they wouldn't feel his fucking breath in their face if he had something to tell them.

FML
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Offline tubby

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5860 on: August 22, 2022, 09:55:26 pm »
With all the quality players at our disposal, and all the tactical knowledge, is there really no other option but to play so open at the back, no matter the score?  I know we've had success playing this way, but surely there is something that we can do tactically to just shore up the defence and not leave ourselves so exposed time after time.
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Offline Wool

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5861 on: August 22, 2022, 09:58:31 pm »
Klopp’s the best thing to happen to this club in my lifetime, but why do we set out the exact same way every single game when it’s clear we don’t have the players for it anymore? Feels like I’m watching the same game over and over again conceding the same shitty goals.

Offline 67CherryRed

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5862 on: August 22, 2022, 10:01:34 pm »
Lets accept that this is our Dortmund 2014 season, they were in the CL final just a year before so it can come around quickly. Write this season off, rebuild in the next couple of windows and go again next season.

Offline Legs

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5863 on: August 22, 2022, 10:04:45 pm »
Lets accept that this is our Dortmund 2014 season, they were in the CL final just a year before so it can come around quickly. Write this season off, rebuild in the next couple of windows and go again next season.

Yeah its looking a hard season for sure with games squashed together.

Flip side we are missing lots of players so you have to balance it out.


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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5864 on: August 22, 2022, 10:04:54 pm »
It's completely unbelievable because it's Jurgen Klopp, not some insecure no-mark chancer who hasn't the balls to make his own case to his bosses and so has to resort to cheap shite like that. The same with the claim that he's using his media appearances to fight a battle against the owners.

As if they wouldn't feel his fucking breath in their face if he had something to tell them.

FML

I think Klopp has mellowed in his older age where he can play politics in the media and also behind closed doors.

You can FML all you want - but we have an unbalanced team and probably the weakest midfield of the top 4 teams - and we have done NOTHING to address it.

Klopp isn't stupid - we can say he is sentimental and loyal - but there is no reason to start James Milner at 37 in back to back games.

Offline Zlen

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5865 on: August 22, 2022, 10:05:15 pm »
Teams are having the easiest possible ride, an open and lubricated highway straight to our goal - while we labour against 11 men, desperately trying the impossible. Also, Salah looks isplated beyond comprehension.

Offline naYoRHa2b

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5866 on: August 22, 2022, 10:07:15 pm »
Template is out the window now, at least what we was at one point we aren't any more. No legs in midfield, Bobby can't press like he used to. No runs in behind. Diaz has fantastic quality but he isn't looking to run in behind, he comes back into midfield.

We need new legs in midfield.

I'm not sure what Jürgen is seeing on the training pitch but we are getting outfought and outworked in these games this season.

Offline Knight

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5867 on: August 22, 2022, 10:10:14 pm »
It's completely unbelievable because it's Jurgen Klopp, not some insecure no-mark chancer who hasn't the balls to make his own case to his bosses and so has to resort to cheap shite like that. The same with the claim that he's using his media appearances to fight a battle against the owners.

As if they wouldn't feel his fucking breath in their face if he had something to tell them.

FML

I'm not saying he's doing this. But making public comments as well as private ones isn't exactly an unknown way to seek to influence people is it.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5868 on: August 22, 2022, 10:14:13 pm »
The biggest issue has been the loss of Nunez and Jota. Klopp’s teams have been built around a front three with pace, directness and goals. A front three of Jota, Nunez and Salah would give most teams in this league a few headaches.
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Offline McSquared

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5869 on: August 22, 2022, 10:20:07 pm »
We need to fix the bit of the template where the opposition can play well for a couple of minutes have one shot and go in front. Can’t keep chasing these games

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5870 on: August 22, 2022, 10:20:11 pm »
I think Klopp has mellowed in his older age where he can play politics in the media and also behind closed doors.

You can FML all you want - but we have an unbalanced team and probably the weakest midfield of the top 4 teams - and we have done NOTHING to address it.

Klopp isn't stupid - we can say he is sentimental and loyal - but there is no reason to start James Milner at 37 in back to back games.
Mate, I respect you as a poster so I'm trying to give you a proper answer instead of one of my usual gobshite responses ;)

I don't dispute that we have troubles as a team and as squad. I will even concede for the sake of argument that Klopp might be unhappy with the squad (I've got no idea, none of us do, but let's go with it), but I simply cannot accept that he will play these stupid games that fans seem to think managers play.

For starters there's scant evidence that ANY manager deliberately picks inferior players in order to 'show the owners'. Not even the worst chancer managers out there. No evidence. It's just one of those things fans say or construct in hindsight after a weaker team has had to be selected and has lost points/games.

But even if it were true that some shitehawks do that, Klopp is not one of those. Everything he has ever said and done throughout his career militates against it. He will argue his case with the PTB and if he can't get the thing he wants out of them he will accept that that is the context he works under. As he has said time and time and time again, during crisis moments and when he's been relaxed.

It's his philosophy - not just his football philosophy but his philosophy about life. That's the absolute boss thing about Klopp. He manages his clubs like he lives his life and as he advocates that everyone should live life.

So picking inferior players deliberately in order to weaken the team  to 'show the owners? Nah

Picking a fight with the owners via press conferences and interviews? Nah

Not this manager
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Offline Egyptian36

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5871 on: August 22, 2022, 10:20:16 pm »

Last season we had some issues.
We didn't look ready the first half many games plus we conceded big chances early on but we had luck on our side and Alisson. Later on into the season we improved. We saw it again against Fulham the 1st half starting from team selection to tactics. I don't know what changed starting from last season but something wrong with our preparation for games.

Last season too we had issues with our new midfield set-up. We exposed Fabinho weaknesses especially when Thiago is out. The same situation this season where Palace player managed to get past him and another player easily happened many times last season with him and Jones vs Bowen and Jesus, against Milan and Chelsea too. I can't remember every game it happened but it was an obvious alarming issue.

Then there is the fact that our midfield is ticking bomb filled with injury prone players.

We didn't fix any of these issues. Yes we challenged for everything last season but doesn't mean your weaknesses will go away without addressing them.

Having said that, like last season we will improve later on and also like last season we need luck on our side especially with the fitness of our players but still no matter how you look at it, the situation with our midfield is down to bad planning.




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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5872 on: August 22, 2022, 10:25:12 pm »
I'm not saying he's doing this. But making public comments as well as private ones isn't exactly an unknown way to seek to influence people is it.
For others, especially weak, insecure people, maybe. But not Klopp.

I've now watched the embargoed press conference that caused all the fuss last night. Lol. People have literally made things up to suit their own pet theories and positions, because there's very little in there (which a few people did point out last night, to be fair to them). He answered some questions and didn't say anything he hasn't said for the last seven years. Nor was there anything about the way he said things to back up some of the claims being made on his behalf.
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Offline BobPaisley3

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5873 on: August 22, 2022, 10:27:55 pm »
Personally would have accepted a transition season this year because it seemed fairly obvious that this team had practically run its race, but to be watching this shambles with the same old faces is a bit galling. Said weeks ago, it’s not a Jurgen Klopp eleven. No energy in midfield, press completely ineffective, ridiculous mistakes at the back. Things needed freshening up. There’s 10 days to do it or else we’re looking at a top 4 fight at best. Away to them is difficult fixture granted, but they’re absolute shit.
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Offline Simplexity

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5874 on: August 22, 2022, 10:32:51 pm »
Lets accept that this is our Dortmund 2014 season, they were in the CL final just a year before so it can come around quickly. Write this season off, rebuild in the next couple of windows and go again next season.

Just don't look at what happened to them after 2014 and you are good.

Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5875 on: August 22, 2022, 10:45:40 pm »
This 433 needs changed. It just doesn’t suit the personal in this squad anymore. Either the midfielders don’t have the legs for it or they just don’t suit it for example Elliott is a 10 and so is carvalho and jones. We need to try something different because we’re becoming very predictable to defend against.

Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5876 on: August 22, 2022, 10:52:52 pm »
Our current tactics have been found out and it happened last season. Everton, Wolves, Villareal and Real Madrid really caused us problem and nullified us for large spells of the game.

We have to be realistic and accept that we can't play a high-octane game with injury-prone and/or old midfielders and drop our line a bit.

Offline Haggis36

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5877 on: August 22, 2022, 11:46:46 pm »
I'm sure someone will be along to call it knee-jerk in a minute but for me there are quite a few issues (some of our own making) and I'm not sure any of them are particularly easy to solve.

Exhaustion - we've used much of the same core consistently for what, 4-5 years now? We've not always had great depth during that time and we've absolutely run some of these players into the ground, they just look like they have nothing physically left to give. So many key players from our recent successes look like they just do not have the legs for it anymore and we've failed to adequately refresh the side. This is concerning, because it doesn't feel immediately reversible and it's already apparent THREE games into the season - fuck knows what it's going to look like come Christmas when the games are coming thick and fast. It's actually a bit unfathomable to me where we are when the hallmarks of most Jurgen Klopp sides have been high-energy, high-pressing and high-intensity. Nowhere is that more apparent than midfield, where we don't have a single athlete or player who can press and cover consistently.

Complacency - some of these players don't look mentally right. Maybe it's the mental and physical exhaustion from playing so much football the past few years and so many near misses, but there have been plenty of performances that aren't good enough that date back to last season as well. Some of our world class players who are supposed to be in their physical primes are turning in lazy performances because they know they'll be picked every week. How many times now have we started slow and conceded first? How many half time threads read "shite, but Klopp will sort them out and we'll be better in the second half". Again, this doesn't feel like a particularly easy fix. Maybe it needs a run of wins, but mentally we look fragile at the moment and it's not often you can say that about a Klopp team.

Tactical stubborness - we almost never vary the way we play, even when we very demonstrably do NOT have the players available to play it. Why are we playing a high line with Nat Phillips? Or when we have no midfield (and no legs to put pressure on the ball)? Is it arrogance? Do we not practice alternative approaches? We're incredibly predictable and at the moment, incredibly easy to play against. Sit deep and sling long balls in behind Trent or through the gaping chasm that is our vacant midfield - you'll get joy eventually.

Strange squad building decisions - quite how we've let the midfield stagnate to this point... Why did we spend what appears to be the entire summer budget on Nunez when he looks, to be kind, like a massive project who is largely at odds with the way we play? He probably doesn't start when Jota is back and meanwhile we're struggling to put a functioning midfield out. We sold Neco who looks a competent PL fullback and replaced him with a young and inexperienced lad who by all accounts isn't ready to play for us yet while Trent looks absolutely goosed. The two most promising youngsters we've signed in recent years both look like they'd be most effective as #10s, a position we don't play with. Absent any contract renewals that are probably not deserved, we'll probably end up letting Wijnaldum, Origi, Milner, Keita, Ox and Firmino all go on frees (and let Mane go for frankly a pittance), when we're a club who tends to operate sell to buy.

I'm not even sure you can point to a single of these factors and think - yes, easily rectified. The set-up is maybe the most obvious one, without going into the transfer market which we clearly have no intention to do.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5878 on: August 23, 2022, 02:03:40 am »
If Klopp has any weakness, it's too much loyalty to players when they're on the downwards trajectory.


I was somewhat thinking this earlier too.  Supposedly, Klopp pushed for Hendo and Milner to get contract extensions.  Hendo, Milner, Firmino all seem to be losing their legs and they’re doing it here.  I think we need to take the chance that we make a mistake letting a player go a year or two early rather then a year or two too late. 

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: The Klopp Template
« Reply #5879 on: August 23, 2022, 02:04:49 am »
Lets accept that this is our Dortmund 2014 season, they were in the CL final just a year before so it can come around quickly. Write this season off, rebuild in the next couple of windows and go again next season.

Christ, we’re 3 games in.  Something is clearly going on but let’s not get carried away here.