Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1190081 times)

Offline Varmenni

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13600 on: February 14, 2010, 03:09:00 am »
Why 442?
I'd like to go further.  Why use these friggin numbers?  Our system could quite as easily be called the 4213, 4231, 451 or 4411 depending on game, and quite possibly what part of said game.  Heck, I think we have even played 433 with intense high pressing in some games this season (or was it 4123).

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13601 on: February 14, 2010, 03:25:34 am »
Why 442? What is so sacrosanct about this system? I'm pretty certain we've tried it a few times. Sissoko and Lucas CM with Gerrard and Kewell on the wings? Kuyt and Torres up front?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/7099694.stm

Was that 442?

With the possible exception of Arsenal in the quater finals of the Champions League I can't ever remember Rafa starting with Gerrard on the wing and Torres upfront. That game we played 4-2-3-1 with Kuyt on the 'right'. The only difference that day was that Kuyt actually spent most of his time in tandem with Torres and we didn't really have anyone on the right except when out of possession (which was rarely). Only on the odd occasions Kewell switched over, and then later when Babel came on.

I'd like to go further.  Why use these friggin numbers?  Our system could quite as easily be called the 4213, 4231, 451 or 4411 depending on game, and quite possibly what part of said game.  Heck, I think we have even played 433 with intense high pressing in some games this season (or was it 4123).

The numbers should mean nothing when in possession, and this is the case at certain teams. At Rafa Benitez's Liverpool however... you can sodding see the formation, at almost all times. Even when in possession. The only one who breaks away from it really is Gerrard, and he's given licence to. The only times it really alters are when Yossi's playing.

Why 4-4-2? I'll guess because Degs has the same thought as I do - more bodies in the box. Gerrard gets forward. And, assuming it would be Kuyt playing off Torres and Benayoun (or indeed Maxi) on the right - they get in the box also. Too many occasions we have 1 player in the box and another just hitting the edge. 4-4-2 may give us 3-4 at any one time, and that will get more goals.

I know that's a simplified way of looking at it, but that doesn't make it incorrect. It's how Yernited have done it for years. Bodies in the box = confusion and opportunities.
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Offline Varmenni

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13602 on: February 14, 2010, 04:15:59 am »
I know that's a simplified way of looking at it, but that doesn't make it incorrect. It's how Yernited have done it for years. Bodies in the box = confusion and opportunities.
But you could just as easily say that less bodies in the box=more space to run into.  Besides I somehow fail to see how 442 necessarily equates to more bodies in the box.  You could just have on FB stay deep and have AMC+FW+WM+MF get into the box while the other MF+WM combine to create the crossing opportunity.   Or you could do something crazy like having a CB overlap the FB (I'we seen us do it and create a goal that way).  It's just a question how you set up the game plan.  And what do you do when you have teams that play with six men in the box at all times.  It's not the be-all end-all tactic.  And rather I'd trust the man who spends his working day studying DVD's rather than us armchair managers to come up with the best plan off attack each time.

Offline Des Equilibrante

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13603 on: February 14, 2010, 04:22:51 am »
I'd like to go further.  Why use these friggin numbers?  Our system could quite as easily be called the 4213, 4231, 451 or 4411 depending on game, and quite possibly what part of said game.  Heck, I think we have even played 433 with intense high pressing in some games this season (or was it 4123).
There was a stats site a bit ago where it showed the average position of each player in the game. We've looked more like 2-4-1-3 sometimes :D
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Offline Des Equilibrante

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13604 on: February 14, 2010, 04:32:42 am »
The thing is... we don't really need real wingers then. If left wing has the ball, Torres and Kuyt will be in the box and Gerrard sort of on the D. I dunno where the left winger is when Dirk drives into the box though...
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13605 on: February 14, 2010, 06:12:34 am »
Talking about a 4-4-2, Nemeth would be absolutely perfect for that. He'd fit right in, playing just off a striker.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13606 on: February 14, 2010, 06:34:16 am »
Talking about a 4-4-2, Nemeth would be absolutely perfect for that. He'd fit right in, playing just off a striker.
The Luis Garcia role?

How does this Jovanovic player size up playing off a striker? We have already Gerrard who plays off a striker by driving from midfield. Does Jovanovic do it in a more Crouchy way?
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13607 on: February 14, 2010, 07:15:54 am »
The Luis Garcia role?

How does this Jovanovic player size up playing off a striker? We have already Gerrard who plays off a striker by driving from midfield. Does Jovanovic do it in a more Crouchy way?

The Dalglish role? A bit OTT, but from what I've seen of Nemeth, that's how he plays. Great with his back to goal, holding off defenders, and bring others into play. And a fantastic finisher to boot.
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Offline Des Equilibrante

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13608 on: February 14, 2010, 07:50:40 am »
The Dalglish role? A bit OTT, but from what I've seen of Nemeth, that's how he plays. Great with his back to goal, holding off defenders, and bring others into play. And a fantastic finisher to boot.
I was referring to player's I'd seen really. Garcia and Litmanen really are the only two...
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13609 on: February 14, 2010, 08:53:34 am »
Because Rafa didn't want him?

Could also be that van Nistel didn´t want to go back to  England or that we couldn´t afford him. But it doesnt matter anyway. Opportunity gone and I think it´s a pitty...


One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13610 on: February 14, 2010, 08:57:53 am »
Ah but what if he plays really well, undroppably so?
Then what of the sacrosanct system that cannot be changed? Torres can't be dropped when fit and plays nowhere bar up top, Dirk Kuyt is held onto the pitch with an elaborate system of under-soil magnets, Gerrard has "Play me in the hole gaffa" as his default sentence.

For me I reckon in a fully fit team we'd have Maxi, Riera, Benayoun, Babel and probably Pacheco thrashing it out for the left wing spot.
One of which is left footed.

I'd love a return to 4-4-2 with Maxi on the right, Riera on the left, a number 10 behind Torres (Kuyt, Ngog or Pacheco), and Gerrard in the middle with Mascherano, attacker and defender.

Part of me wants to play devils advocate and see what Rafa would do if a bright spark came through and had to be played.


I think that´s really not the issue. If considering how we ran out of decent players over the last couple of month there always will be enough time for him to play. Like Insua, who used to be the subsitute of Aurelio and suddenly needs a rest because he made too many games.

We are on the border to have enough players for two or three formations and we will need them desperately next season after the world cup. Gerrard, Johnson, Torres, Mascherano, Insua... who else? They all won´t be 100% ready by the beginning of next years season. We will need more of the likes of Pachecho...

« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 09:00:54 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13611 on: February 14, 2010, 09:44:59 am »
Why 4-4-2? I'll guess because Degs has the same thought as I do - more bodies in the box. Gerrard gets forward. And, assuming it would be Kuyt playing off Torres and Benayoun (or indeed Maxi) on the right - they get in the box also. Too many occasions we have 1 player in the box and another just hitting the edge. 4-4-2 may give us 3-4 at any one time, and that will get more goals.
Kindred spirit.

I've been harping on to play 4-3-3 all season so 4-4-2 is anything but sacrosanct.
We're so rigid that when any decent ball goes in the box from left or right we've only ever got one man in there.

Why 4-4-2 now, because let's face it Aquilani is a 1 game a month man and in Maxi we have a proper right winger.  We now have 2 wingers right and left, 2 overlapping full backs, and 3 or 4 players who can play as a support striker a la Kaka at Milan.

As for not playing the numbers game open your eyes man, we're the most organised team in the league, to our detriment.  The only shining light has been Aquilani breaking the shackles and bursting into the box,  Chelsea and Man U beat Arsenal by flooding players forward when they had the ball and racing back when they didn't.  By the time bodies in the box are needed Lucas and or Masch have just started to totter forward.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13612 on: February 14, 2010, 09:48:41 am »
And then Carra can mop up the counters with his pac aah. right.  ;D
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13613 on: February 14, 2010, 10:04:30 am »
Kindred spirit.

I've been harping on to play 4-3-3 all season so 4-4-2 is anything but sacrosanct.
We're so rigid that when any decent ball goes in the box from left or right we've only ever got one man in there.


Which was a little different in the Arsenal game no? I can remember us having a lot of players in and around the box when crosses came in this time... for the first time this season though...
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13614 on: February 14, 2010, 10:21:45 am »
Which was a little different in the Arsenal game no? I can remember us having a lot of players in and around the box when crosses came in this time... for the first time this season though...
I didn't think so, I can't remember who it was a few games ago, maybe Bolton, but when Aquilani was playing he wasn't in and around the box he was ahead of the centre forward.  I was loving it and would love to see one of Gerrard or him doing it regularly.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13615 on: February 14, 2010, 11:02:45 am »
Just saw van Nistelroy score twice for HSV... natural finisher there. Anybody know why it didn´t work out for us?



unbelievable.  are you sure you're posting in the right club's forum?

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13616 on: February 14, 2010, 11:14:51 am »
unbelievable.  are you sure you're posting in the right club's forum?

Can you honestly tell me what´s your problem? I simply have no clue..
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13617 on: February 14, 2010, 11:47:15 am »
Kindred spirit.

I've been harping on to play 4-3-3 all season so 4-4-2 is anything but sacrosanct.
We're so rigid that when any decent ball goes in the box from left or right we've only ever got one man in there.

Why 4-4-2 now, because let's face it Aquilani is a 1 game a month man and in Maxi we have a proper right winger.  We now have 2 wingers right and left, 2 overlapping full backs, and 3 or 4 players who can play as a support striker a la Kaka at Milan.

As for not playing the numbers game open your eyes man, we're the most organised team in the league, to our detriment.  The only shining light has been Aquilani breaking the shackles and bursting into the box,  Chelsea and Man U beat Arsenal by flooding players forward when they had the ball and racing back when they didn't.  By the time bodies in the box are needed Lucas and or Masch have just started to totter forward.

the most organised team in the league to our detriment? we scored more goals last season than any other team and had  either the best or next best defensive record? Think most of our probs are we have not played well enough nowt to do with formation, confident players will get forward, nervous players hang back.

aquilani hasn't broken any shackles he was bought specifically to get forward, he just been injured and now has a virus, shit happens

chelsea and man united beat arsenal with counter attacking football not by flooding the box with players  - what the hell you been watching?

we dont have any wingers in the first team squad - we have a few attacking midfielders - we have no pacey, wide player other than babel who thinks he's a striker

so apart from that, your right, we do have overlapping fullbacks, unfortunately one of them overlaps when we dont have the ball
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13618 on: February 14, 2010, 11:57:22 am »
the most organised team in the league to our detriment? we scored more goals last season than any other team and had  either the best or next best defensive record? Think most of our probs are we have not played well enough nowt to do with formation, confident players will get forward, nervous players hang back.
This isn't last season.
We were allowed to be as organised as possible last season because we had the ability to speed up play through the centre through Alonso's passing.
With that gone there needs to be drive from midfield and it has only come when Aquilani has played, or earlier in the season when Gerrard played there.  I'm not knocking Lucas but he's not a central midfielder who looks to finish in the box and score, his primary concern is with winning the ball and with playing it short and safe.

Last season it was great being so organised because we had Alonso being the "pivot" that hinged our defensive solidity (6 men behind the ball at all times) with getting the ball forward.

The loss of Alonso should have led to a change in style as we were unable to fill his position.  It has when Aquilani has played because he's been given licence to get forward which he does alot but when he's not fit it should be Gerrard, likewise when Masch isn't fit it should be Lucas.

We've lost the "quarterback". We've bought somebody who does run in and get forward but while he's out we seem content with sticking to a formula that revolves around a player that isn't here.

aquilani hasn't broken any shackles he was bought specifically to get forward, he just been injured and now has a virus, shit happens
So why replace him with a defensive midfielder if the position requires somebody who gets forward.

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chelsea and man united beat arsenal with counter attacking football not by flooding the box with players  - what the hell you been watching?
I'm sick of reading about how the Mancs and Chelsea played 1 man up top and Rooney and Drogba took on a Spartan like quest to single handedly destroy the Arsenal back line.  It was counter attacking football but when the ball came loose Chelsea and the Mancs swarmed up the pitch with pace dragging the Arsenal defenders everywhere.  They beat them with pacy breaking and good passing as well as numbers coming out.

I reckon that the Arsenal defenders are so used to training with the Arsenal midfield/forwards they have no clue what to do when a team drives straight at them.  Unfortunatley for us we didn't do that on the break and did our little meaningless passes on the halfway line and only looked dangerous when we had a greedy bastard like Babel running at them.

Quote
we dont have any wingers in the first team squad - we have a few attacking midfielders - we have no pacey, wide player other than babel who thinks he's a striker
Riera is a winger. He may not be lightening but he's got the trickery to beat a man and put ina  good ball, equally so coming inside and shooting.
Maxi is the same.
Unfortunately for us they both have world beating games then Division 2 games, usually in succession.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13619 on: February 14, 2010, 12:01:55 pm »
Can you honestly tell me what´s your problem? I simply have no clue..

wait.  don't tell me.  man utd are just your second team?

Offline steveeastend

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13620 on: February 14, 2010, 03:07:12 pm »
wait.  don't tell me.  man utd are just your second team?

Then you surely won´t believe what I wrote here...


http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=225239.msg6371775#msg6371775

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=252905.msg6554624#msg6554624

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=252901.msg6564158#msg6564158


If you knew to what extend I hate Manchester United.... but if it really makes you feel better. My first team is my local team.. Rapid Wien. Then Liverpool, then nothing.

And if you tell me that this forum is only for local scousers and no reds from abroad then be it.
I surely had a good time around but probably the language barrier makes it too difficult to get the message right.

Have a nice evening.
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One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13621 on: February 14, 2010, 03:25:40 pm »
But you could just as easily say that less bodies in the box=more space to run into.  Besides I somehow fail to see how 442 necessarily equates to more bodies in the box.  You could just have on FB stay deep and have AMC+FW+WM+MF get into the box while the other MF+WM combine to create the crossing opportunity.   Or you could do something crazy like having a CB overlap the FB (I'we seen us do it and create a goal that way).  It's just a question how you set up the game plan.  And what do you do when you have teams that play with six men in the box at all times.  It's not the be-all end-all tactic.

So you complain about the numbers but acronym's are sound?

Quote
And rather I'd trust the man who spends his working day studying DVD's rather than us armchair managers to come up with the best plan off attack each time.

Might as well shut this place down then. He's doing a boss job of it this season as well, how could anyone question his methods?
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13622 on: February 14, 2010, 04:42:07 pm »
I don't think we have the striker personnel to play a 4-3-3. Especially when Torres is injured, it would really fall apart. None of our wide men are proper wide forwards. They don't pose enough of an attacking threat to play there. You can argue Kuyt, but everyone is still torn on whether he is good enough to be playing anywhere other than beside the striker in a 4-4-2. Our wide two would constantly have to be cutting in and not only creating goals but scoring them too. To what extent can our players do this? They would definitely have to adapt. Johnson would also be pivotal in that formation so until he comes back from injury I don't think it would work with Carragher supporting the attack.

Also, our general style of play doesn't support the use of a 4-3-3. 4-3-3 gives options in a passing game. It utilizes space better than the other formations. We rarely play a passing game where the ball is kept on the floor. I wouldn't mind seeing us play that way but I don't think it would be a success. But it isn't like we have anything to lose in our style of play right now either...

I think our team is best suited to 4-4-2 with Kuyt up top and Gerrard on the right. That isn't going to happen though. Neither is 4-3-3.

In an ideal world with a fully fit team we'd have Insua and Johnson providing width, Carragher (or Hyypia 2 being honest), Agger, and Masch focussing on defending.  While Gerrard and Aquilani ran through the middle with Benayoun and Kuyt being the "inside" forwards.

As it is now though we don't have the players fit enough to play it and a 4-4-2 looks like the formation that suits us best if Aquilani isn't playing and Gerrard can be moved into the middle.

Offline Vulmea

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13623 on: February 14, 2010, 07:02:03 pm »
This isn't last season.
We were allowed to be as organised as possible last season because we had the ability to speed up play through the centre through Alonso's passing.
With that gone there needs to be drive from midfield and it has only come when Aquilani has played, or earlier in the season when Gerrard played there.  I'm not knocking Lucas but he's not a central midfielder who looks to finish in the box and score, his primary concern is with winning the ball and with playing it short and safe.

Last season it was great being so organised because we had Alonso being the "pivot" that hinged our defensive solidity (6 men behind the ball at all times) with getting the ball forward.

The loss of Alonso should have led to a change in style as we were unable to fill his position.  It has when Aquilani has played because he's been given licence to get forward which he does alot but when he's not fit it should be Gerrard, likewise when Masch isn't fit it should be Lucas.

We've lost the "quarterback". We've bought somebody who does run in and get forward but while he's out we seem content with sticking to a formula that revolves around a player that isn't here.
So why replace him with a defensive midfielder if the position requires somebody who gets forward.
I'm sick of reading about how the Mancs and Chelsea played 1 man up top and Rooney and Drogba took on a Spartan like quest to single handedly destroy the Arsenal back line.  It was counter attacking football but when the ball came loose Chelsea and the Mancs swarmed up the pitch with pace dragging the Arsenal defenders everywhere.  They beat them with pacy breaking and good passing as well as numbers coming out.

I reckon that the Arsenal defenders are so used to training with the Arsenal midfield/forwards they have no clue what to do when a team drives straight at them.  Unfortunatley for us we didn't do that on the break and did our little meaningless passes on the halfway line and only looked dangerous when we had a greedy bastard like Babel running at them.
Riera is a winger. He may not be lightening but he's got the trickery to beat a man and put ina  good ball, equally so coming inside and shooting.
Maxi is the same.
Unfortunately for us they both have world beating games then Division 2 games, usually in succession.


some good points there Degs but I'm not sure its fair to judge any system this season based on the nervous football we've played with what Benitez actually wants to play or had the players to deliver - we've gone back to basics because what he was trying clearly failed. I'm not sure we've had one game with our first choice 11. I'm certain there hasn't been one game with our first XI match fit. Currently he's just trying to build confidence by having a solid base which would work if we had genuine quality up front to take the few chances we will get but Ngog and an off from Gerrard aren't really going to exploit those chances. Throwing numbers forward just increases the risk of conceeding therefore we are left scraping for goals and being deifficult to beat.

Lucas has tried to adapt his game - it was Lucas who missed headers against sides in the last minutes, twice, it was Lucas who blasted over against arsenal, he has been getting forward more
- granted its not his natural game (personnally I'd have dropped Gerrard back but then you have even less quality up top) but i think the tactic is for him to get forward. No doubt Benitez was expecting Aquilani to have played far more games than he has but Lucas needs time to adapt just like the other kids.

We'll have to agree to differ on the arsenal games - if you'd have quoted the City game with United I'd have agreed completely (at least after United scored). I didn't think our game suffered from lateral passing as much as failing with the counter attack - too many misplaced passes and wasted opportunities, thought the opportunities were there, we tred to exploit them but just stuffed them up.

Reira has trickery granted and he stays wide which creates space but dont think he's a winger - wasn't he a wing back at City? - he is a decent wide midfielder but lacks the quality and pace to genuinely stretch teams or provide sufficient goal threat. He might be a 'winger' in todays terminology but I'm old enough to remember proper 'wingers'. Maxi is different again, clever player, probably capable of playing right across the front line (just like Silva), but not a winger to stretch the game ---trying to think of an example ........Young at Villa I'd say is close to an old fashioned 'winger'.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13624 on: February 14, 2010, 07:14:49 pm »
Like most of you I've had to reluctantly take a hard look at our manager. I wondered if, at valencia or before, he has ever had a team break down as ours has this season. Has he ever had to deal with a psychological meltdown/loss of form like this? Most of the problem as I see it is in the psyche, what we normally say is in the head but is more accurately in the feelings.....after all, we have virtually the same players as last season when we were on a roll.

I think the points about fulham by abhred, and leeds and scunthorpe by yorky are well made, but what really separates them from us is expectation. I think that expectation in our players heads has been out of balance this year, and though I firmly believe the owners are primarily responsible, Rafa's achilles heel may have been thoroughly exposed too. This expectation is shared by the crowd and of course by this thread, connected as we are, and so disappointment, the handmaiden of expectation as the Buddha taught, has penetrated all aspects of the club. In our defeats, I've retreated into watching how this thread probably mirrors the dressing room, and especially Rafa's attempts over months to turn the ship around.

He's always had this thing around him that he doesn't engage with his players, no arms around the players, strictly professional, team decisions made on the basis of science. Basically, to use my lingo, to deny, perhaps repress the feelings. He appears to do this with himself, as the thread about his over the top goal celebrations attests. Keep the emotion under control cos it leads to poor decisions, or that it clouds the mental acuity....that is how I imagine he rationalises it. But when the team hits a period like this season, where teams even from the championship come onto the pitch against us feeling that if they get after us, they can get a result, then continuing to repress feelings, ( mainly fear, and feeling unlucky, whatever we do it just stays bad, hopelessness ).... just as it has served Rafa so well up to now, appears to me to be a primary source of limitation. I'm suggesting, well, wild guessing really, that Rafa denied the hopeless feelings in him and the squad, and so was unable to look at the reality of the limitations that this group of players might struggle to perform to the heights of the previous season. Might I say that the imbalance of feelings started right at the beginning of the season, and it was the anger and disappointment that the alonso money couldn't be spent. I firmly believe that this literally depressed Rafa and SG, and it is from this place that SG has sometimes looked like he is saying 'what's the point' this season. I should say that as I understand it, feelings nearly always come first before the mind, not the other way around, and the danger of denial/repression is that what we repress, ie. keep unconscious, tends to control us, rather than us controlling it. This repressed anger, and the disappointment that fell from it's boughs, kept us in denial that we had to learn to walk before we can run again, such was the devastation to the teams confidence.

 Rafa and the team have had to stare their collective failure to meet their expectations in the face, and it wasn't until the latest few games that Rafa was able to right the ship. They all had to accept, I think, that they had to go 'back to basics' ( ie. become a solid level 2 team and stop the dreaming of 3......much like the thread eh? ), not let in goals, keep it tight. Through this, re-build the confidence that only comes from not getting beat. Rafa's superior tactical game, his one great asset imo, has suffered and become lost amid the crisis of confidence. If I might say Roy, your solution that 'coaching' is the answer is only partially true, for week in week out we would look fine until we let in a goal, and suddenly we had little or no self-belief,......and the crowd, connected to the emotional pulse of the team like a mother hearing the cries of her child, tensed and the players feel it, and their brains (ie the coaching) freeze from the emotional overwhelm, and we all get another miserable lesson in humility.

It has had me wondering what has been tried by Rafa and the management through this 'seasonus horribilus', he must have come up against some personal demons, particularly when so many balloons were successfully inflated only to have them popped in the last moments of games. Build up, build up, fall down, over and over. I'm sure that he stuck to his routines, but even they must have come under scrutiny as doubt infected the team....they certainly have in here! And what has changed, if anything? It's tempting to say that Kyriakos and his mountain man routine, the male roaring defiance to fear and doubt may have been exactly what was needed to conquer fear..a thing far removed from Rafa's cool. And it is Rafa the cool that might have had so much trouble with a team that was plagued with fear, and I suspect that his traditional cool approach might make facing this fear and helping his team overcome it a very difficult task. {this realm of fear management is Mourinho's one great asset.}

 I think that although I share many of the thoughts on here about why this player and not this player, in this position or that position, at the end of the day the "fix" is something beyond coaching, or which player plays where, but into a kind of semi-magical realm that, being magical, I don't quite understand. We all have the experience when balance is achieved in any aspect of our lives, but how to make it happen lies always, I think, just slightly out of reach.

Lastly, I think that the expectation at the beginning of the season caused the injuries, especially to torres and gerrard, I've seen it too many times in all walks of life that when the weight of our inner expectation bears down, the stress of it causes either the body or the mind to break, perhaps only enough to cause a systemic imbalance. That the injuries were nearly all "stretching" injuries in various hamstrings I think makes my point.....we were stretching, trying to meet expectations with just too much tension and not enough relaxation, playing too fast, trying too hard, and not playing within ourselves. It's probably no accident that the one player who always understood this critical balance in-game was alonso, and well, 'nuff said. Now, it seems, the expectations are back in line with reality, and the anger has had time to settle, and there seems an acceptance, for this season, of our current reality. 

ta for the shout hass   :D

« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 07:16:26 pm by manifest »

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13625 on: February 14, 2010, 08:49:16 pm »
Good to see you back Manifest, nice one BTW :)

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13626 on: February 14, 2010, 09:32:07 pm »
Like most of you I've had to reluctantly take a hard look at our manager. I wondered if, at valencia or before, he has ever had a team break down as ours has this season. Has he ever had to deal with a psychological meltdown/loss of form like this? Most of the problem as I see it is in the psyche, what we normally say is in the head but is more accurately in the feelings.....after all, we have virtually the same players as last season when we were on a roll.


At Valencia I think he had good and bad seasons, before that he's been relegated but what he will never have had to deal with is the level of expectation.

The crisis in confidence was clear for most to see other than working harder and waiting for the results to change how should he have managed the problem? Admission of weakness in an environment like football is often seen as counter productive?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13627 on: February 14, 2010, 10:12:35 pm »

Excellent post manifest. For months now, I've found myself debating with friends and strangers that our problems (aside from injuries and downright shitty luck), is of a more ethereal nature. I just havn't been able to put my arguements as eloquently as you have here. I may have to learn your post off by heart! :D

Might I say that the imbalance of feelings started right at the beginning of the season, and it was the anger and disappointment that the alonso money couldn't be spent. I firmly believe that this literally depressed Rafa and SG, and it is from this place that SG has sometimes looked like he is saying 'what's the point' this season. I should say that as I understand it, feelings nearly always come first before the mind, not the other way around, and the danger of denial/repression is that what we repress, ie. keep unconscious, tends to control us, rather than us controlling it. This repressed anger, and the disappointment that fell from it's boughs, kept us in denial that we had to learn to walk before we can run again, such was the devastation to the teams confidence.

This I find especially hard to get across to some people. They just don't want to hear it.

Lastly, I think that the expectation at the beginning of the season caused the injuries, especially to torres and gerrard, I've seen it too many times in all walks of life that when the weight of our inner expectation bears down, the stress of it causes either the body or the mind to break, perhaps only enough to cause a systemic imbalance.


Am I right in saying that you're from a psychoanalytic/psychotherapeutic background?


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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13628 on: February 14, 2010, 10:18:56 pm »

The crisis in confidence was clear for most to see other than working harder and waiting for the results to change how should he have managed the problem? Admission of weakness in an environment like football is often seen as counter productive?
Just like in all walks of life, it depends on how you are viewed...imo.

If the people beneath you or on a par with you generally respect your opinions, then an admission of weakness could be a positive. You can generate that ''Us against the world'' mentality.
Hate to come back to SAF but I reckon he has used that mentality to get his team through this season. Probably talking to his players about how everyone expects them to lose because they lost CRonaldo and Tevez and how they have a great chance to prove them wrong.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13629 on: February 14, 2010, 10:26:51 pm »
Dr Manifest - love ya dude - welcome back in earnest.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13630 on: February 14, 2010, 10:52:34 pm »
Brilliant, Manifest.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13631 on: February 14, 2010, 11:22:54 pm »
More!

Enjoyed the read Manifest!
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13632 on: February 14, 2010, 11:33:29 pm »

ta for the shout hass   :D



a pleasure sir and welcome back with a killer post ;D

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13633 on: February 15, 2010, 12:07:17 am »
If Gerrard was pissed off about the Alonso money disappearing, what about the rest of the players? Did they find out about this too? It seems like they all knew hence our form this season and the players body language. Also if the £30 million was available, would Rafa have signed Aqualini?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13634 on: February 15, 2010, 12:54:46 am »
Interesting post Manifest.

Hmmm, very interesting indeed.

On the Gerrard and 'whats the point' feelings being repressed, I dont think they were.....repressed as such. I think he, along with the rest of the squad (and possibly every single staff member at the club) knew, possibly from the middle of pre season that things werent as they should in a team that had just amassed its highest points total....in the hunt to improve on that and take the next (massive) step to clinching the title.

They, more than us, would of been aware of the position the club was in and the direction things were going.

At the begining of the season, after 6 or 7 matches, when talking about our poor form, I kept finding myself saying 'there is a dark cloud hanging over us'. This dark cloud wasnt the owners.....it was a change in the dynamics of our progression as a team.

Our failure to improve the squad didnt go unnoticed not just by the fans, but by the players....not just the 'big players' either. In losing our pivot, we were now left in a position of uncertainty.

At the end of last season, the lads were probably thinking "Great! add one or two quality players and we are in good shape to win our first title in 2 decades". We didnt add, we patched up a squad. So before a ball was even kicked in anger, the physche of the club changed.

Fuck, I'm rambling now and my head is working overtime.

Thanks for the stimulating post
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13635 on: February 15, 2010, 10:27:25 am »
Manifest's post has drawn a lot of strands together for me and others I can see.

The focus has been on what's gone wrong. The team played poorly pre season which backs up the theory that the players felt a great chance had been lost to bolster a squad that was only four points short of winning the damn thing.

If the Manager and his assistants also felt like this it would permeate through the club.
If we go through the same scenario in the summer, as is likely, then I fear for next season as well. The next 5 months will be crucial in determining the future of our club.
Something has got to give soon.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13636 on: February 15, 2010, 10:54:43 am »
Manifest, could you just go into Melwood and organise some group therapy for the team please?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13637 on: February 15, 2010, 10:59:35 am »
Serious question for you now guys.

This thread - it's been really interesting and those of us who had gaps in our knowledge (I know I did) have learned a lot from unexpected sources.

All that said, I'm thinking we should close it down. We should be getting involved in other areas of the site if there's a perception that those areas need a boost, and this has kind of served its purpose, hasn't it?

As I said, a serious question. If we're largely agreed (and I think we should be folks) then we'll get the mods to close it and start working on fresh content for the main board. I think that would be a better use of our time.

Let's do it, eh?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13638 on: February 15, 2010, 11:28:35 am »
all good things come to an end big man

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13639 on: February 15, 2010, 11:59:37 am »
Aye exactly, and it would seem the staff are actually having a serious think about the future of the site (not just OTSD) so we should maybe be thinking about helping them out rather than hiding away in here.

I'd rather have RAWK to escape to than this thread, I've got to say, and I agree with everything the site stands for. I don't think there's any reason we couldn't have the debate we have here some place else.