Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!

[ShakaHislop]

There was an interesting discussion on todays The Bunker with Ayesha Hhazarika who gave some really valid reasons why Starmer shouldn't have demanded Hancock's resignation and later in the show David Blunkett joined and agreed with her entirely.

Did they discuss as to why it was supposedly right for Labour to call for Gavin Williamson's resignation only a month prior? He didn't even break the law unlike Hancock. Also, Labour surely can't have believed Williamson would actually resign, which undermines the "only pick fights you can win" argument used to defend Starmer at the weekend.

[Elmo!]

Tweet from @BritainElects: Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (+2)
LAB: 37% (-1)
LDEM: 7% (-1)
GRN: 5% (-)
REFUK: 3% (+1)

via @RedfieldWilton, 22 Feb
Chgs. w/ 15 Feb
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/gb-voting-intention-22-february-2021/

Tha poll has an absolutely wild Scottish subsample showing SNP down 11 points. Of course people are saying it is down to the whole Salmond thing but it does make me question it a bit (as well as subsamples having huge margins of error).

[Zeb]

Tha poll has an absolutely wild Scottish subsample showing SNP down 11 points. Of course people are saying it is down to the whole Salmond thing but it does make me question it a bit (as well as subsamples having huge margins of error).

Aye, there's some proper polling coming from some of the big pollsters, whose polling experts have been rightly rude about the Scottish 'one' doing the rounds. As you say, pulling out the crosstabs not weighted for the purpose they're being used for is mad as hats.

Generally though, Tories taking a lead with the vaccine rollout and better control of the messaging is what it is.

----

Guardian seeming to confirm the reasons for the last minute issues in Liverpool with the shortlist.

One council insider said that Labour’s NEC had “taken its time waking up to the situation on the ground in Liverpool with both the police investigation and the government inspection”.

In December, the government ordered an inspection into the council’s planning, highways, regeneration and property management functions after the arrest of Joe Anderson, the city’s mayor, and several council officers as part of an investigation into allegations of corruption in regeneration projects.

Anderson denies wrongdoing but stepped back from his position and said he would not stand for re-election, prompting the selection race.

Two of the three candidates – Ann O’Byrne and Wendy Simon – served as Anderson’s deputy mayor. O’Byrne previously held the regeneration brief but dramatically quit Anderson’s cabinet in 2018, accusing him of “not listening” to colleagues.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/23/labour-scraps-all-female-shortlist-for-liverpool-mayor

Building up to quite the stink with Unite being linked to it all and having their own 'issues' about probity.

[KillieRed]

I don't trust him either. He also doesn't seem to have noticed the polling showing he is less popular in Scotland than Boris these days.... he isn't going to win any battle against Sturgeon.

He was always in love with his career more than anything else. He was a very capable politician, with a love of the good life which you could put up with, but he totally lost my respect when he got in bed with Murdoch then Russia Today. And that was all before the credible accusations about him came out. Of course, he was cleared of them by a jury of his peers.

[Indomitable_Carp]

What I don't understand is how does stopping all three candidates running just to stave off the potential stink around O'Byrne (who i have heard only bad things about from anyone I know who has had personal dealings with her) make sense politically or otherwise? If there is a stink around O'Byrne it is going to come out regardless - what does stopping the other two candidates from running achieve? It will only leave Labour open to all sorts of flak internally and externally.

[Elmo!]

He was always in love with his career more than anything else. He was a very capable politician, with a love of the good life which you could put up with, but he totally lost my respect when he got in bed with Murdoch then Russia Today. And that was all before the credible accusations about him came out. Of course, he was cleared of them by a jury of his peers.

Yeah, he was done in Scottish politics before any of the allegations came up. RT was the final nail in that coffin.

Confirmed now he has pulled out of appearing at the inquiry tomorrow.

[oldfordie]

I expect Labour to hammer Hancock over this. it's not only a insult to NHS workers it's a insult to the Britsh public, he must think we all have the memories of a Goldfish, no shortage of PPE during the early days of the Pandamic my arse. I remember hospitals were saying they had to send taxis to neighboring hospitals trying to scrounge anything spare, they came back with very little.

Hancock under fire after claiming there was ‘never’ national PPE shortage

Rachel Clarke
@doctor_oxford
These words on @BBCRadio4 from @MattHancock are categorically not true.

I say this as someone who *begged* local veterinary practices & schools for masks & visors. Whose hospice nearly closed down through lack of PPE. This was happening up & down the country. It was horrendous.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/hancock-under-fire-claiming-never-140917037.html

[TSC]

I expect Labour to hammer Hancock over this. it's not only a insult to NHS workers it's a insult to the Britsh public, he must think we all have the memories of a Goldfish, no shortage of PPE during the early days of the Pandamic my arse. I remember hospitals were saying they had to send taxis to neighboring hospitals trying to scrounge anything spare, they came back with very little.

Hancock under fire after claiming there was ‘never’ national PPE shortage

Rachel Clarke
@doctor_oxford
These words on @BBCRadio4 from @MattHancock are categorically not true.

I say this as someone who *begged* local veterinary practices & schools for masks & visors. Whose hospice nearly closed down through lack of PPE. This was happening up & down the country. It was horrendous.
https://www.aol.co.uk/news/hancock-under-fire-claiming-never-140917037.html

Hancock used the phrase ‘we wrapped our arms around care homes’ back in the Summer, not long after Covid had ravaged the sector, via minimal to zero PPE and though transferring infected hospital patients into care homes.

Still, he managed to dish out plenty of contracts under Covid cover to whoever.

[oldfordie]

Hancock used the phrase ‘we wrapped our arms around care homes’ back in the Summer, not long after Covid had ravaged the sector, via minimal to zero PPE and though transferring infected hospital patients into care homes.

Still, he managed to dish out plenty of contracts under Covid cover to whoever.

Now you got me started.
Does my head in every time Johnson+co tell us they put their arms around the country.
They did absolutely sod all for me in a year until I got my first Covid jab. I know the same applies to millions of more people forced to self isolate during the first few months of the Pandemic.

The government left millions of people to their own devices during a national emergency, self isolate had one obvious problem, people have to eat.  online food deliveries were practically impossible to book, I was lucky to have close family living near me to drop food off for me but am sure others didn't, how many people were forced out of their homes to walk around shopping. how many caught Covid as they had no way of buying a mask at the time. Asda out their arms around me more than Johnson did fir a year.
The Tories opened the cheque book for Covid but any soft git can do that. we are talking about competence to do deliver practical help during a National emergency, zero points. they never put their arms around the country, they pulled a cheque book out and spent.

[Commie Bobbie]

I expect Labour to hammer Hancock over this.

You may be waiting a while.

They'll say it's not in the national interest or some other bullshit centrist bollocks.

[A-Bomb]

There was an interesting discussion on todays The Bunker with Ayesha Hhazarika who gave some really valid reasons why Starmer shouldn't have demanded Hancock's resignation and later in the show David Blunkett joined and agreed with her entirely.

Dont suppose you have a copy do you?

[A-Bomb]

Can anyone wrap up for me (as i can't follow the thread on this) what exactly is happening with the local mayor elections in Liverpool?

[Zeb]

Can anyone wrap up for me (as i can't follow the thread on this) what exactly is happening with the local mayor elections in Liverpool?

Background is Anderson stepping down under police investigation for corruption, which he denies, alongside 'unnamed' (court restrictions) others. Government have an investigation going on to see if they're going to send commissioners in to run the council if it isn't under competent new leadership. Labour initially shortlist three candidates. Then late in the process the national party says they need to do additional scrutiny of the candidates. End result is party deciding not to put any of the three forward, with only vague reasons given, and to reopen applications at the very last moment instead. Cue immense amounts of fume because it looks like the most recent 2019 MP shortlist mess of imposing outside candidates against local party wishes. And further proof that a fair chunk of the Labour party membership is quite happy to hold any position on an issue depending on whether they think their faction will benefit from it.

[Snail]

Background is Anderson stepping down under police investigation for corruption, which he denies, alongside 'unnamed' (court restrictions) others. Government have an investigation going on to see if they're going to send commissioners in to run the council if it isn't under competent new leadership. Labour initially shortlist three candidates. Then late in the process the national party says they need to do additional scrutiny of the candidates. End result is party deciding not to put any of the three forward, with only vague reasons given, and to reopen applications at the very last moment instead. Cue immense amounts of fume because it looks like the most recent 2019 MP shortlist mess of imposing outside candidates against local party wishes. And further proof that a fair chunk of the Labour party membership is quite happy to hold any position on an issue depending on whether they think their faction will benefit from it.

The fact they're only allowing new candidates 48 hours to get their nominations in is the bit that makes me raise my eyebrows most, to be honest.

[Zeb]

The fact they're only allowing new candidates 48 hours to get their nominations in is the bit that makes me raise my eyebrows most, to be honest.

It's ridiculously short notice, yeah. It does hint that they've got a candidate or two lined up. If they have, expect outside of anything to do with council decisions the past few years and not beholden to Unite in any way. Clean break kind of thing. Just an incredible mess all round to leave it so late. Makes you wonder what caused the second round of scrutiny.

[PatriotScouser]

The biggest laugh I've seen of this has been that complete incompetent Zarah Sultana stating that Labour Party members must be able to select their own candidates. This undemocratic interference has to end. Yes like in Coventry South 

During the Corbyn era we had candidate stitch ups and unelected appointments of friends to senior positions within the party.

[12C]

Background is Anderson stepping down under police investigation for corruption, which he denies, alongside 'unnamed' (court restrictions) others. Government have an investigation going on to see if they're going to send commissioners in to run the council if it isn't under competent new leadership. Labour initially shortlist three candidates. Then late in the process the national party says they need to do additional scrutiny of the candidates. End result is party deciding not to put any of the three forward, with only vague reasons given, and to reopen applications at the very last moment instead. Cue immense amounts of fume because it looks like the most recent 2019 MP shortlist mess of imposing outside candidates against local party wishes. And further proof that a fair chunk of the Labour party membership is quite happy to hold any position on an issue depending on whether they think their faction will benefit from it.

The problem I have with the process is that the three candidates were selected, and just before the ballots were due to arrive, they recalled the candidates for re interview.
We were told that the interviews would be held and new nominations announced if required with ballots now arriving on Monday.
Monday passed by, and midway through Tuesday, an email landed which said the candidates had been effectively been barred from running as Labour candidates. It then went on to say that anyone wishing to stand would have to have their application ready for a closing date on Thursday.
No reasons given.
Effectively saying to the three candidates you are not fit to be candidates after selecting them calls the process into question.
To then try and find alternatives in two days seems to be crazy. Unless of course there are already people lined up, in which case they have an unfair advantage over anyone seeking to write and apply over the next two days.
Regardless of the political leanings or the allegations of corruption, the process reflects badly on the party.
No doubt there will be some spin which paints the leadership as fighting extremism or corruption, but i fear it will only pour more fuel on the PR dumpster fire caused by whoever is making these decisions.

[Zeb]

The problem I have with the process is that the three candidates were selected, and just before the ballots were due to arrive, they recalled the candidates for re interview.
We were told that the interviews would be held and new nominations announced if required with ballots now arriving on Monday.
Monday passed by, and midway through Tuesday, an email landed which said the candidates had been effectively been barred from running as Labour candidates. It then went on to say that anyone wishing to stand would have to have their application ready for a closing date on Thursday.
No reasons given.
Effectively saying to the three candidates you are not fit to be candidates after selecting them calls the process into question.
To then try and find alternatives in two days seems to be crazy. Unless of course there are already people lined up, in which case they have an unfair advantage over anyone seeking to write and apply over the next two days.
Regardless of the political leanings or the allegations of corruption, the process reflects badly on the party.
No doubt there will be some spin which paints the leadership as fighting extremism or corruption, but i fear it will only pour more fuel on the PR dumpster fire caused by whoever is making these decisions.

Agree with you up to the last sentence, although it's not a 'bar' on reapplying. Think months ahead will tell whether those who've made this decision have made the better one and maybe some firm reasons to support it which can be put down on paper rather than wrapped in Labourspeak. But you're right about perceptions. Although it's not exactly a downside for the national party if some want to discredit and marginalise themselves further out of reflex so long as Liverpool itself doesn't become a pinata for the Tories to hit every time they fancy a fight.

[Snail]

Agree with you up to the last sentence, although it's not a 'bar' on reapplying. Think months ahead will tell whether those who've made this decision have made the better one and maybe some firm reasons to support it which can be put down on paper rather than wrapped in Labourspeak. But you're right about perceptions. Although it's not exactly a downside for the national party if some want to discredit and marginalise themselves further out of reflex so long as Liverpool itself doesn't become a pinata for the Tories to hit every time they fancy a fight.

Rothery is threatening legal action so we'll see what happens.

[Zeb]

Rothery is threatening legal action so we'll see what happens.

Yeah, I saw that. Not sure what good it'll do any candidate to take it to court if rulebook was followed. Not like it works for getting yourself onto a shortlist to be the PPC if the NEC dive in over the top, is it? But sure Unite will quite happily fund it regardless to find out.

[12C]

Agree with you up to the last sentence, although it's not a 'bar' on reapplying. Think months ahead will tell whether those who've made this decision have made the better one and maybe some firm reasons to support it which can be put down on paper rather than wrapped in Labourspeak. But you're right about perceptions. Although it's not exactly a downside for the national party if some want to discredit and marginalise themselves further out of reflex so long as Liverpool itself doesn't become a pinata for the Tories to hit every time they fancy a fight.

The Tory media are very adept at creating a piñata.
Look at how Starmers evisceration of Johnson at the early PMQs was countered by a ridiculous story about a donkey sanctuary

[gazzalfc]

The number of MP's that have come out in support of Rothery and condeming the process is telling.

Also pulling up a rather unfortunate tweet by Starmer from last year

The selections for Labour candidates needs to be more democratic and we should end NEC impositions of candidates. Local Party members should select their candidates for every election.
11:53 AM · Feb 4, 2020

[Cpt_Reina]

Starmer's doing a great job of pissing off people who voted Labour in 2019 whilst simultaneously making next to no impression on those who voted Tory, its a bold strategy cotton.

[Red Viper]

Starmer's doing a great job of pissing off people who voted Labour in 2019 whilst simultaneously making next to no impression on those who voted Tory, its a bold strategy cotton.

Grim isn't it? 11 years of Tory rule with no sign of it coming to an end with the Labour party in it's current state.

[TSC]

Grim isn't it? 11 years of Tory rule with no sign of it coming to an end with the Labour party in it's current state.

Tories are in year 2 of a 5 year term after their landslide win so this administration won’t be under any threat until the next election whenever that may be.

[oldfordie]

Starmer's doing a great job of pissing off people who voted Labour in 2019 whilst simultaneously making next to no impression on those who voted Tory, its a bold strategy cotton.

Who do you think should replace him.?
 ive not been too impressed with him over the last few weeks but if he has to go then he has to go for one reason only, he's not good enough. not because he's not left wing enough.

[Zeb]

The Tory media are very adept at creating a piñata.
Look at how Starmers evisceration of Johnson at the early PMQs was countered by a ridiculous story about a donkey sanctuary

Even less reason to make it easy for them and have Liverpool suffer the post-pandemic consequences for it all over someone who'll likely be the last elected to the position. It is nice to see everyone back in favour of local party democracy again though obviously, if this is as serious as the party are quietly giving out to journos, then it may well be one of the few instances where stepping in and asking for someone not linked to any of those tied up in a large corruption scandal is justified.

[filopastry]

Starmer's doing a great job of pissing off people who voted Labour in 2019 whilst simultaneously making next to no impression on those who voted Tory, its a bold strategy cotton.

And yet still polling better than the shambles he inherited.

Not that I am defending some of Labour's recent mis steps. The Liverpool situation is awkward though, hard to know what is driving that, it may potentially tie to legal issues which for obvious reasons cannot be openly discussed

[Red Viper]

Tories are in year 2 of a 5 year term after their landslide win so this administration won’t be under any threat until the next election whenever that may be.

Labour aren't even coming close in the next election in their current guise so I'd say we've got at least another 9 years.

[gazzalfc]

Who do you think should replace him.?

Andy Burnham is probably the only suitable candidate. But there is no way he would make the move back to Westminster

[thaddeus]

I know for some it's like voting for a punch in the face but I'd be quite happy with tax rises if applied proportionately across the board and spent wisely.  Hearing Keir Starmer asking the Tories not to put up taxes isn't inspiring me...

I'm still backing Starmer and I hope his long-term strategy comes to fruition, it feels very frustrating right now.

[Snail]

Who do you think should replace him.?
 ive not been too impressed with him over the last few weeks but if he has to go then he has to go for one reason only, he's not good enough. not because he's not left wing enough.

I don't know. Burnham (who, as gazza says, is on record saying he wants nothing to do with the PLP) or Clive Lewis, though I'm not 100% enthused by either of them and there'd be a kick off from the usual suspects within the party the moment either of them tried to suggest anything left wing. Starmer is not going to work out, I know that much.

[Nobby Reserve]

Andy Burnham is probably the only suitable candidate. But there is no way he would make the move back to Westminster

Burnham's a strange one. He does a few things very right, then will blunder into a trap or fuck-up and have to go on the defensive (this shower of Tory shite in government made him look a dick when Burnham sought to stand up to them WRT adequate financial assistance for Tier 3 (as was) lockdown).

Like a few very good Labour politicians (Cooper, Benn, etc) he stepped away from the frontline when Corbyn was in charge - but to a position he was able to remain somewhat in the public eye, and in a role where he could demonstrate leadership. He also (despite being a Remainer) made soothing noises toward the Brexwits (the twat). As such, I think he has an eye on a leadership challenge at some point.

Unless Starmer massively ups his performances, he will have to go after a defeat in 2024. That could be the timing that suits Burnham.

[Snail]

Grim isn't it? 11 years of Tory rule with no sign of it coming to an end with the Labour party in it's current state.

People are now writing off 2024 (because Corbyn, I’m assuming it’ll be the go-to excuse for the next few years) and talk about 2029, which... yeah. Sound. I’m 30, the Tories have been in power for 99% of my adult life, might as well write off the next decade too. Not like I’ve got anything to look forward to anyway, neither party is going to help me afford my own house or improve anything for me in any meaningful sense of the word. Just keep paying my rent to my landlord and keep working working working til the day I finally, mercifully, drop dead.

[B0151?]

I don't know. Burnham (who, as gazza says, is on record saying he wants nothing to do with the PLP) or Clive Lewis, though I'm not 100% enthused by either of them and there'd be a kick off from the usual suspects within the party the moment either of them tried to suggest anything left wing. Starmer is not going to work out, I know that much.

I hope there are better alternatives to them somewhere because I really don't see either as a potential PM.

Burnham in particular always struck me as an opportunist. Although maybe that is good PM potential. Certainly worked for Boris

[Snail]

Burnham in particular always struck me as an opportunist.

Defo. He has spoken about how the right of the party pushed him to water down his leadership bid, he's done alright as Mayor and made the right noises, and he's defo less robotic, but I still wouldn't exactly trust him not to do exactly what Starmer did - say a load of stuff to get the leadership, then ditch it all within a year.

[Welshred]

I don't think there were many who truly expected Starmer to win the election in 2024 anyway, it was always going to be a tall order to turn over the majority that the Tories had in this election cycle. Whether you back him or not you have to hope that there is someone truly brilliant within the Labour party who can emerge over the next few years but I really don't see who that will be right now.

[TSC]

I know for some it's like voting for a punch in the face but I'd be quite happy with tax rises if applied proportionately across the board and spent wisely.  Hearing Keir Starmer asking the Tories not to put up taxes isn't inspiring me...

I'm still backing Starmer and I hope his long-term strategy comes to fruition, it feels very frustrating right now.

To be fair Starmer framed it via council tax rises, same required as a result of extensive Tory budget cuts during austerity.  Obviously those cuts weren’t under Johnson, but Tory nonetheless.

[Snail]

I don't think there were many who truly expected Starmer to win the election in 2024 anyway, it was always going to be a tall order to turn over the majority that the Tories had in this election cycle. Whether you back him or not you have to hope that there is someone truly brilliant within the Labour party who can emerge over the next few years but I really don't see who that will be right now.

I think the party's in a terrible state and it'll probably split within the decade. Not sure it'll help anyone, but I think it's what will happen.

[stewy17]

Grim isn't it? 11 years of Tory rule with no sign of it coming to an end with the Labour party in it's current state.

Is it even really to do with the current state?

Labour has only won 6 elections since the party was formed, and three of them were Blair. Whether people like it or not the last election absolutely fucked the party in strongholds and was an abject failure, whatever the reasons for that failure may have been. Starmer is clearly making errors but he has time to make back his losses and hopefully to recover faith of members.

Will he manage to overturn the huge Tory majority at the next election? It'd mean some pretty monumental swings and probably taking back swathes of Scotland. That's a pretty unlikely prospect at this stage regardless of who he is. Blair reincarnate would struggle with it.

We live in a twat of a country which is inherently right wing and the tories are consolidating and gerrymandering wherever they can.

Brown, Miliband, Corbyn and now Starmer are all clearly better human beings and prospects for this country than their tory counterparts but look where we are. Out of Europe, probably be subject to the worst effects of the pandemic than any other country and still Johnson has the support of a large part of the electorate.

Starmer isn't helping himself but he's on a hiding to nothing anyway.