Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 878583 times)

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5960 on: April 21, 2017, 05:48:56 pm »
Labour have expressed a firm position. There will be no second referendum. Brexit is what we voted for, so Brexit is what we're going to get, if Labour take power. If you voted Leave, that's Labour reassuring you.

Eventually. There was an awful lot of chaos with several positions alluded to before the definitive word for yesterday emerged. Does anyone have any confidence that it is a fixed position? Labour have not articulated a clear narrative on Brexit, and are trying to avoid the subject to hide that omission. They need to sort the manifesto draft out pronto and get everyone parroting the same lines.

Offline B0151?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5961 on: April 21, 2017, 05:56:33 pm »
Well I'm actually having a hard time seeing how Labour wouldn't get destroyed if voters thought this was about securing Brexit. Best hope for damage limitation is voters don't think that is at stake and don't turnout, or risk a pro-Brexit motivated pact of Tory, UKIP and Brexit Labour voters.

That's not to say Labour shouldn't have a stance like but I just don't see how they could fight successfully on it.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5962 on: April 21, 2017, 06:01:15 pm »
Eventually. There was an awful lot of chaos with several positions alluded to before the definitive word for yesterday emerged. Does anyone have any confidence that it is a fixed position? Labour have not articulated a clear narrative on Brexit, and are trying to avoid the subject to hide that omission. They need to sort the manifesto draft out pronto and get everyone parroting the same lines.
Yes, completely agree, It's alright saying he wants full access to the SM etc but he will have to lay his cards on the table when scrutinized in the debates. is the Labour government promising the impossible brexit the Tory ministers promised. this means refusing to abide by EU rules on FOM or paying into EU budget, maybe a deal can be worked out if these obstacles are overcome but just saying he wants full access to the single market means nothing, everybody wants it but they dont want the EU membership rules that come with it.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5963 on: April 21, 2017, 06:01:31 pm »
Apparently Seamus Milne and others were expecting a spring election... so they came up with a policy 'blitz' with the most memorable policy being free school meals.  I'm no expert but wouldn't having a draft manifesto ready be a good idea?
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Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5964 on: April 21, 2017, 06:11:36 pm »
Apparently Seamus Milne and others were expecting a spring election... so they came up with a policy 'blitz' with the most memorable policy being free school meals.  I'm no expert but wouldn't having a draft manifesto ready be a good idea?

I had the illusion that a party should have a continually updated draft manifesto so that they could at any point start campaigning. You don't need to publish it until the election is called, but as you replace planks of the previous manifesto, the draft is updated.

The words should be available now. The glossy high value production stuff would still need to be done, but the script for the MPs should be ready. If they don't have that message available now, the damage will be done by the time they have pulled it together.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5965 on: April 21, 2017, 06:18:53 pm »
I had the illusion that a party should have a continually updated draft manifesto so that they could at any point start campaigning. You don't need to publish it until the election is called, but as you replace planks of the previous manifesto, the draft is updated.

The words should be available now. The glossy high value production stuff would still need to be done, but the script for the MPs should be ready. If they don't have that message available now, the damage will be done by the time they have pulled it together.


Should the departments not have their own work prepared? Keir Starmer has his own shadow Brexit department yet there is absolutely zero policy on anything Brexit related from him or his team. He even has a couple of junior ministers working for him but yet not a peep.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5966 on: April 21, 2017, 06:23:19 pm »
I had the illusion that a party should have a continually updated draft manifesto so that they could at any point start campaigning.


That would smack of organisation and preparedness and errr, leadership and good management...

I think they just didn't expect an early GE like this was going to happen so they've been bumbling along making innocuous vague platitude like statements all the while hoping that the Tories would tear themselves apart perhaps over Brexit negotiations and implementation and that Labour could then be the goto party for a Tory dissilusioned electorate and thus win the GE, almost by default rather than trying, a sort of political last man standing game. Unfortunately, unlike the in-fighting and bickering left, the Tories have remarkable self-preservation tendencies.

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Offline Sangria

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5967 on: April 21, 2017, 06:24:01 pm »
Should the departments not have their own work prepared? Keir Starmer has his own shadow Brexit department yet there is absolutely zero policy on anything Brexit related from him or his team. He even has a couple of junior ministers working for him but yet not a peep.

Corbyn has a history of agreeing positions with his shadow ministers before unilaterally undermining them with contrary positions on air. They probably don't know whether their privately agreed work will be the official position until the leader says so on TV.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5968 on: April 21, 2017, 06:27:31 pm »
Corbyn has a history of agreeing positions with his shadow ministers before unilaterally undermining them with contrary positions on air. They probably don't know whether their privately agreed work will be the official position until the leader says so on TV.

I have heard that before but its a bit of a cop out. Starmer himself has gone from wanting to end freedom of movement to then saying the economy is the most important.

He has a blank cheque here to sell a Brexit vision. If he isnt going to tackle immigration then at least set out how he will protect farmers and industry.

If not then he is basically just as useless as Thornberry and Abbot on the shadow front bench.

Offline zero zero

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5969 on: April 21, 2017, 06:38:45 pm »
Apparently Seamus Milne and others were expecting a spring election... so they came up with a policy 'blitz' with the most memorable policy being free school meals.  I'm no expert but wouldn't having a draft manifesto ready be a good idea?
They had one. Unfortunately the three key pillars:

1. Blair (B-Liar) is a War Criminal

2. All our ills should be blamed on the Chicken Coup

3. The only reason you think Corbyn is a dinosaur and not a radical is because of the M.S.M.

were immediately shot down in bewilderment as soon as the focus groups were widened beyond Momentum members.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:40:19 pm by zero zero »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5970 on: April 21, 2017, 07:10:07 pm »
Should Labour be pledging to protect the pensions triple lock?

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5971 on: April 21, 2017, 07:12:10 pm »
Len McCluskey won 59,067 votes, Gerard Coyne 53,544 and Ian Allinson 17,143, in a turnout of just over 12% -
It seems this will be going to court....
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Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5972 on: April 21, 2017, 07:14:35 pm »

Offline TepidT2O

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“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5974 on: April 21, 2017, 07:39:37 pm »
I've seen the Labour Party political broadcast.

Whilst I don't disagree with the message, I really dislike it.

As a teacher I find the use of the classroom environment somewhat unpleasant.  Poor from the ad agency.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5975 on: April 21, 2017, 08:04:49 pm »
I've seen the Labour Party political broadcast.

Whilst I don't disagree with the message, I really dislike it.

As a teacher I find the use of the classroom environment somewhat unpleasant.  Poor from the ad agency.

It's so much cringe but the message is spot on. People showing more uproar over a fictional scenario than the actual fact that funding to our children's education is being cut is a sign of the times.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5976 on: April 21, 2017, 08:12:02 pm »
It's so much cringe but the message is spot on. People showing more uproar over a fictional scenario than the actual fact that funding to our children's education is being cut is a sign of the times.
But it is cringe... there's something just wrong about it..

Message totally lost because of that...

Plus, they're not really saying how they would tackle these issues..  the free school meals issue is a distraction..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Danny55

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5977 on: April 21, 2017, 08:15:24 pm »
But it is cringe... there's something just wrong about it..

Message totally lost because of that...

Plus, they're not really saying how they would tackle these issues..  the free school meals issue is a distraction..

Message is right, execution off. Agree.

At least they're using the word cuts these days instead of austerity.

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5978 on: April 21, 2017, 08:20:03 pm »
Message is right, execution off. Agree.

At least they're using the word cuts these days instead of austerity.
Good point that.

Cuts makes far more impact.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5979 on: April 21, 2017, 09:33:32 pm »
Yeah, that's what I mean, I'm not saying this country is particularly anti-tax, just that I'm not sure 'tax the rich' sentiment is much of a votewinner. Feels too extreme for this country and a throwback. Maybe that's the me having been brought up in a New Labour world shining through, but I think we probably have moved on that, if we were ever on it (and I don't think we were, were we?)

Taxation policy can be innovative and progressive. Remember, New Labour actually stood on a manifesto pledge to impose a levy on the utility companies that had been gouging the public under the Tories, and when elected in 1997 (with a stonking majority that left only 165 Tory MPs in the entire country)  promptly took £5bn off them in this windfall tax. This was then spent on the New Deal to help train and support the long-term unemployed, and various school and education investment.

That's what I call taxing the 'rich'.

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5980 on: April 21, 2017, 09:35:56 pm »
Taxation policy can be innovative and progressive. Remember, New Labour actually stood on a manifesto pledge to impose a levy on the utility companies that had been gouging the public under the Tories, and when elected in 1997 (with a stonking majority that left only 165 Tory MPs in the entire country)  promptly took £5bn off them in this windfall tax. This was then spent on the New Deal to help train and support the long-term unemployed, and various school and education investment.

That's what I call taxing the 'rich'.


Great point..
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5981 on: April 21, 2017, 09:49:53 pm »
Taxation policy can be innovative and progressive. Remember, New Labour actually stood on a manifesto pledge to impose a levy on the utility companies that had been gouging the public under the Tories, and when elected in 1997 (with a stonking majority that left only 165 Tory MPs in the entire country)  promptly took £5bn off them in this windfall tax. This was then spent on the New Deal to help train and support the long-term unemployed, and various school and education investment.

That's what I call taxing the 'rich'.

Yeah, but how does that compare to VAT on private schools to pay for free school meals?...
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Offline Libertine

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5982 on: April 21, 2017, 09:52:15 pm »
Taxation policy can be innovative and progressive. Remember, New Labour actually stood on a manifesto pledge to impose a levy on the utility companies that had been gouging the public under the Tories, and when elected in 1997 (with a stonking majority that left only 165 Tory MPs in the entire country)  promptly took £5bn off them in this windfall tax. This was then spent on the New Deal to help train and support the long-term unemployed, and various school and education investment.

That's what I call taxing the 'rich'.


Centrist Tory-lite Blairites.....

In 2017, a real way to tax the rich would be to go after London property bought by foreign oligarchs, criminals and despots. Not sure how it would be done, but surely it's possible.

Offline zero zero

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5983 on: April 21, 2017, 09:52:50 pm »
Message is right, execution off. Agree.
Then it's a failure as a piece of communication. The execution is supposed to be an elegant expression of the strategy. Get the execution "off", then go home and explain to your client why you've pissed their money up the wall. Amateurs.

Don't worry Seamus, there are only ten of thousands of people hoping that you'll be super-fast learning on the job.

I got 52 secs in before I wanted to end it all due to how contrived it was. Get to the point.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5984 on: April 21, 2017, 09:53:53 pm »
Taxation policy can be innovative and progressive. Remember, New Labour actually stood on a manifesto pledge to impose a levy on the utility companies that had been gouging the public under the Tories, and when elected in 1997 (with a stonking majority that left only 165 Tory MPs in the entire country)  promptly took £5bn off them in this windfall tax. This was then spent on the New Deal to help train and support the long-term unemployed, and various school and education investment.

That's what I call taxing the 'rich'.


That's also the work of competent, highly skilled front benchers who prepared for power

Offline Zeb

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5985 on: April 22, 2017, 05:30:48 am »
Centrist Tory-lite Blairites.....

In 2017, a real way to tax the rich would be to go after London property bought by foreign oligarchs, criminals and despots. Not sure how it would be done, but surely it's possible.

Go after property owned via off shore tax havens. Tories have done a tiny bit towards that but nowhere near enough. Private Eye estimated there's likely £200bn worth of property owned this way. That would convert to something like £3bn in tax dodged every single year.

(edit: just to source an estimate on that. Richard Murphy conservatively estimates £2.3bn based upon 2014 FT figures. The Tories' taxes on these properties raises around £200m per year.)

I will be interested to see how all the parties try to forecast (and base policies) upon the impact of Brexit.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 06:36:17 am by Zeb »
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Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5986 on: April 22, 2017, 07:42:30 am »
Sometimes it's useful to get away from hype and posturing and examine policy intent. This isn't too far off the mark for me.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-to-answer-lazy-corbyn-is.html
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5987 on: April 22, 2017, 08:06:01 am »
Sometimes it's useful to get away from hype and posturing and examine policy intent. This isn't too far off the mark for me.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-to-answer-lazy-corbyn-is.html
Some good policies there... but some that are just not going to help the poorest in society..

Can you (or anyone) explain to me what a national education service is? I've never known what he was talking about when he mentioned it.
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline JohnnoWhite

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5988 on: April 22, 2017, 08:16:22 am »
My interpretation  - and that's all it is as I haven't heard much of that particular policy - is that an incoming Labour government would seek to establish a standardisation of curricula across the nation. Implicit in this announcement is I assume we don't have it currently. I really didn't focus on that specific policy announcement. Maybe any schoolteachers on the board would be best placed to throw some light on this.

As regards not particularly helping the poor, what about ending Zero hours contracts, increasing the carer's allowance, the £10/hr minimum wage, ending the public sector pay freeze and fairly taxing the tax-dodgers so taxes could be used to support the poorest of our citizens? When you see these actualities presented in the round it's astonishing the abuse that goes unchecked.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 08:24:54 am by JohnnoWhite »
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5989 on: April 22, 2017, 08:42:44 am »
Sometimes it's useful to get away from hype and posturing and examine policy intent. This isn't too far off the mark for me.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/how-to-answer-lazy-corbyn-is.html

I backed many of those policies under Miliband too. There's an alternate universe out there where Ed Balls has just announced how successful the investment bank has been and the polls are showing most people who were on zero hour contracts would never go back to one.

The one big disagreement with Corbyn I have is the "holding the Tories to account". For starters, it's conceding the election. Which is realistic but the opposition party is meant to be the government in waiting - this is the time to set out an alternate vision. And the chaser to that is I don't want Brexit whatsoever.

But policies which Labour as a whole adopt have not, on their own merits, been the issue even to the broader electorate . It's when you pop Corbyn's name in front of them, or when Corbyn is asked about unilateral disarmament or the role of Britain in NATO, where things take a turn for the worse.
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Offline Crumble

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5990 on: April 22, 2017, 08:43:23 am »
Can you (or anyone) explain to me what a national education service is? I've never known what he was talking about when he mentioned it.

It's free access to education from cradle to grave:

"A National Education Service will give working age people access throughout their lives to learn new skills or to re-train. It should also work with Jobcentre Plus to offer claimants opportunities to improve their skills, rather than face the carousel of workfare placements, sanctions and despair."

From http://labourlist.org/2015/07/education-is-a-collective-good-its-time-for-a-national-education-service/

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5991 on: April 22, 2017, 09:04:50 am »
I backed many of those policies under Miliband too. There's an alternate universe out there where Ed Balls has just announced how successful the investment bank has been and the polls are showing most people who were on zero hour contracts would never go back to one.

The one big disagreement with Corbyn I have is the "holding the Tories to account". For starters, it's conceding the election. Which is realistic but the opposition party is meant to be the government in waiting - this is the time to set out an alternate vision. And the chaser to that is I don't want Brexit whatsoever.

But policies which Labour as a whole adopt have not, on their own merits, been the issue even to the broader electorate . It's when you pop Corbyn's name in front of them, or when Corbyn is asked about unilateral disarmament or the role of Britain in NATO, where things take a turn for the worse.

Then surely it's time to at the very least swallow a spoonful of a little unsavoury medicine and simply vote out this Tory mob. They have to go as nothing can be worse for our people. 9 million women didn't vote at the last GE on the basis they believed that NO MP was worth supporting. If only half of those women decide that this time there's something that has to be got rid of then the Tories are under threat. 
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5992 on: April 22, 2017, 09:24:21 am »
Then surely it's time to at the very least swallow a spoonful of a little unsavoury medicine and simply vote out this Tory mob. They have to go as nothing can be worse for our people. 9 million women didn't vote at the last GE on the basis they believed that NO MP was worth supporting. If only half of those women decide that this time there's something that has to be got rid of then the Tories are under threat. 

For Jeremy to make that case, isn't it? That's his job. To lead and give voice to the values and aspirations which Labour voters will rally around and which will pull in the undecided and those who feel disenfranchised. He's had 18 months so far. He's got a month left to figure out how to do it effectively to those who aren't going to turn up to a Momentum rally.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5993 on: April 22, 2017, 09:32:10 am »
All anyone needs to riposte that piece is the john McDonnell video of him gleefully talking about the economic crash, and that's one of many reasons why he's unelectable.

As well has him being unable to manage his party, work 4 day weeks, go off on holiday during referendum campaign and so so many more things that make him unelectable, giant difference between coming up with ideas and having the ability to turn them into workable, practical solutions and then implement them, as we saw with the vat on private schools to pay for free state school meals which was an incredibly poorly thought out idea to push out to the public domain, ditto for a £10 minimum wage right now as loads of businesses are seeing their cost bases rise due to the Tory brexit he is helping push though when it needs to be more gradual, which is something Osborne got right, Corbyn wanting to abolish zero hours contract when those can actually be quite useful to both parties instead of cracking down on the abuse of them

The one big disagreement with Corbyn I have is the "holding the Tories to account". For starters, it's conceding the election.
the current leadership don't want overall power just power of the Labour Party, that should be abundantly clear to all

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5994 on: April 22, 2017, 10:08:45 am »
I backed many of those policies under Miliband too. There's an alternate universe out there where Ed Balls has just announced how successful the investment bank has been and the polls are showing most people who were on zero hour contracts would never go back to one.

The one big disagreement with Corbyn I have is the "holding the Tories to account". For starters, it's conceding the election. Which is realistic but the opposition party is meant to be the government in waiting - this is the time to set out an alternate vision. And the chaser to that is I don't want Brexit whatsoever.

But policies which Labour as a whole adopt have not, on their own merits, been the issue even to the broader electorate . It's when you pop Corbyn's name in front of them, or when Corbyn is asked about unilateral disarmament or the role of Britain in NATO, where things take a turn for the worse.

Pretty much this. It's not Labour, it's Corbyn who is unelectable. And a government has to be elected on a manifesto that addresses all areas of government policy. There's no policy on Europe, just a statement on what they would do in opposition. What is Labour's foreign policy? NATO? The US? Nuclear Disarmament? Ireland? The Middle East?

The British people generally like Labour social policies - who wouldn't? - it's a question of credibility and affordability that does for Labour.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5995 on: April 22, 2017, 10:15:58 am »
...as we saw with the vat on private schools to pay for free state school meals which was an incredibly poorly thought out idea...

And the study they claimed backed it up didn't say what they claimed and stated in the conclusion that there was no justification for rolling it out across all students. It's all lazy back-of-a-fagpacket policy.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5996 on: April 22, 2017, 10:21:33 am »
And the study they claimed backed it up didn't say what they claimed and stated in the conclusion that there was no justification for rolling it out across all students. It's all lazy back-of-a-fagpacket policy.

It's worse, it gives the impression that the motivation was punitive, but they were seeking a populist justification. Nothing wrong with grandstanding, but extra spend has to be targeted efficiently. The impression of Tax and spend profligacy is toxic to Labour electoral chances.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5997 on: April 22, 2017, 10:30:44 am »
It's worse, it gives the impression that the motivation was punitive, but they were seeking a populist justification. Nothing wrong with grandstanding, but extra spend has to be targeted efficiently. The impression of Tax and spend profligacy is toxic to Labour electoral chances.
yup, and as Alan and others have said before it's the class warfare bullshit not so much between the haves and have nots but will also piss off the aspirational group (the £70k is rich but the leader on £137k doesn't feel rich)

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5998 on: April 22, 2017, 11:10:02 am »
It's free access to education from cradle to grave:

"A National Education Service will give working age people access throughout their lives to learn new skills or to re-train. It should also work with Jobcentre Plus to offer claimants opportunities to improve their skills, rather than face the carousel of workfare placements, sanctions and despair."

From http://labourlist.org/2015/07/education-is-a-collective-good-its-time-for-a-national-education-service/

Very similar to new deal then?
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5999 on: April 22, 2017, 11:12:33 am »
Very similar to new deal then?

But without the Blairite word "New" in the title. National is a good socialist word.