Topic: Pass and move, pass and move, it's the Liverpool groove - Norwich Round Table

[Col]

Well that was fun, wasn't it?

Two youngsters made their full League debuts, we passed the ball around like it was a parcel at an 8-year old's birthday party, and Luis carried on where he left off last season with another hat-trick.


So, we all know how boss that performance was, but let's look at some of the other things that may normally get glossed over.



Firstly, Pepe Reina. What is going on? I can't be the only one who's very concerned about his performances over the last 18 months. I know he's a great guy, and I know he loves the club, and I know that at his best he's better than anyone else in the League - but how do we fix him? Is it a case of bringing back Xavi Valero? Or is there something more?

Second, Martin Skrtel - on form, he's brilliant. He won more headers last season than Kompany and Lescott combined. He struggles sometimes when not next to Agger, but overall his level over the past 18 months has been very impressive. My question is, how long will it take him to fully adjust to this system, and to be comfortable enough on the ball to provide an extra outlet and overload, without the nervousness that has led to a few individual mistakes this year? And as a follow-on, should we be altering the system slightly to encourage him to simplify his role until he does adjust, and leave the penetrative stuff to Agger?

Thirdly, Steven Gerrard. He's proved he can play that disciplined role in midfield, distributing the ball then moving into space to receive it again. Can he do it consistantly? Can he become our version of Paul Scholes?

Following on from that, how does our midfield fit together when everyone is fit? Lucas is world-class at what he does, Allen just does not give the ball away, Gerrard is Gerrard and the one most likely to pull something out of the bag when we really need it, and Sahin is steadily looking more and more like Luka Modric with every passing performance. Add to that the undoubted raw talents of Henderson and Shelvey, and we could be set in the midfield for the best part of a decade - but how do we make it work this season?

My next question is about Stewart Downing - have Assaidi, Sterling, and Suso all surpassed him now, or is this a short-term thing? If they have, what do we do with him? In the past, we'd have loaned him out for a pittance. Is Brendan capable of getting his Aston Villa form out of him? If not, do we need to spend even more money trying to replace McManaman? It seems like we've spent a hell of a lot of time and money doing that!

Finally... Luis Suarez CAN play as a number 9. He CAN finish. He just needs mobile players around him, creating spaces for him to spin in to. 5 goals in his last 6 league games, I believe it is. Only Van Persie is in better form - and Suarez hasn't even played well until today! In a system that sees us have so much of the ball, so close to the opposition's goal... exactly how good can Suarez be?

[BabuYagu]

Some stats for you to digest before replying regarding our performance today.

Possession 67.1%
Duels won 57.1%
Aeriel Duals won 63.2%
Interceptions 14
Completed passes 700
Pass Accuracy 90.1% (FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS!!!)
Pass Accuracy in opponents half 80.8%
Fouls Conceeded 6

Couple of things these figures confirmed for me.... I thought we out fought Norwich today. It came on the back of Rodgers talking about people putting their body on the line, speaking of his admiration of Agger the "Warrior" for playing through pain barrier. These figures really confirmed what I saw.

Also, our players rarely went to ground and when they did, it was only when absolutely certain of winning the ball. Just 6 fouls tells the story. Rodgers is really starting to nail down his desires when we are without the ball. We are turning it over high up the pitch now, staying on our feet and being aggressive but fair. Love it.

The passing statistics as well are just fucking outrageous. It wasn´t just possession for possession sake either, we could have been 5 up at half time if Suarez takes his chance 1 on 1, Gerrard puts that header away and the ref gives the clear penalty. We dominated possession AND were very creative at the same time. Joy to watch.

Lastly, our shot accuracy today was over 60%. It was the lowest in the league on average before todays games but hopefully we´ve turned a corner with this now.

[royhendo]

It's weird how two more young lads can render us a more patient looking side with the ball. I listened to Brendan Rodgers' interview with the bloggers and forum reps from the other week again last night and the messages about how he wanted us to play were clear for everyone to see in our game - the same applied at West Brom. And of course that leads nicely into your questions, Col, cos they're shaped around those points.

Firstly, Pepe Reina. What is going on? I can't be the only one who's very concerned about his performances over the last 18 months. I know he's a great guy, and I know he loves the club, and I know that at his best he's better than anyone else in the League - but how do we fix him? Is it a case of bringing back Xavi Valero? Or is there something more?

So - there's a thing. He flapped again, yes, but if anything I'm almost more interested in what he's doing with the ball at his feet - when he's playing as our sweeper. He sclaffed a couple of balls today, but he also actually made some play, didn't he? The idea of drawing the opposing side on to us the length of the pitch, and then lofting it to the full back or playing a slide rule to the centre mid to put us in 4 v 4. That's starting to work, but it depends on our ability to keep the ball and to build pressure. That's coming - the tempo and composure and patience, and it's nice that Suso and Wisdom were such a big aspect of that today. The older heads are often on the younger players, in terms of this system.

Second, Martin Skrtel - on form, he's brilliant. He won more headers last season than Kompany and Lescott combined. He struggles sometimes when not next to Agger, but overall his level over the past 18 months has been very impressive. My question is, how long will it take him to fully adjust to this system, and to be comfortable enough on the ball to provide an extra outlet and overload, without the nervousness that has led to a few individual mistakes this year? And as a follow-on, should we be altering the system slightly to encourage him to simplify his role until he does adjust, and leave the penetrative stuff to Agger?

I'd say no. No compromise now on the system. Go for it. And if we need to be as brutal with Skrtel as we have been with Enrique and Downing, then so be it - play Coates. It's a scary brand of football and that's affecting Skrtel and also Henderson at times I think (they're a little wary of what's coming from his blind spots I guess), so it'll take a while to feel normal being brave.

Thirdly, Steven Gerrard. He's proved he can play that disciplined role in midfield, distributing the ball then moving into space to receive it again. Can he do it consistantly? Can he become our version of Paul Scholes?

Yeah, he can - definitely the minute he realises how effective this system can be.

Following on from that, how does our midfield fit together when everyone is fit? Lucas is world-class at what he does, Allen just does not give the ball away, Gerrard is Gerrard and the one most likely to pull something out of the bag when we really need it, and Sahin is steadily looking more and more like Luka Modric with every passing performance. Add to that the undoubted raw talents of Henderson and Shelvey, and we could be set in the midfield for the best part of a decade - but how do we make it work this season?

Again, harking back to the podcast, it's abundantly clear that in his mind Lucas as the controller with Joe Allen one ahead of him is the foundation of what he has planned for our football. So that's gonna make life acutely competitive for the other boys. I personally love Henderson - his engine, his ability to play one touch - but Rodgers' comments currently have him sat in the ejector seat waiting for the worst, much like Enrique and Downing. Sahin just looks better with every game... Gerrard is Gerrard... it's a nice problem to have.

My next question is about Stewart Downing - have Assaidi, Sterling, and Suso all surpassed him now, or is this a short-term thing? If they have, what do we do with him? In the past, we'd have loaned him out for a pittance. Is Brendan capable of getting his Aston Villa form out of him? If not, do we need to spend even more money trying to replace McManaman? It seems like we've spent a hell of a lot of time and money doing that!

Much like above. Podcast. Brendan Rodgers talks of tempo, and patience through the phases, and of testing the opposing side's organisation. With that in mind, Downing is fucked. Why? Because Suso, Sterling and Assaidi are all doing it naturally, and collectively for what's probably about a third of his wages, maybe less. Ibe's coming soon... and again, I never had a problem with Downing to the extent many had - he's got quality about him - but he's not got the football brain and audacity the other three seem to have (albeit it's early days yet).

Finally... Luis Suarez CAN play as a number 9. He CAN finish. He just needs mobile players around him, creating spaces for him to spin in to. 5 goals in his last 6 league games, I believe it is. Only Van Persie is in better form - and Suarez hasn't even played well until today! In a system that sees us have so much of the ball, so close to the opposition's goal... exactly how good can Suarez be?

It's a good question that. He'll continue to frustrate if he forces things, but that's maybe based on a lack of trust in his supporting cast as you say mate. He seems to have an affinity with Sahin, Sterling and Suso... maybe that affects the answer above too!

[BazC]

That was a good taste of what Rodgers' Liverpool will be about. The hope is to see these performances and results become more frequent than the usual story with our games over the last year or so; dominate, play well, but lose points.

In the pre match thread I said that was the first Liverpool attack that had got me excited since the days Torres was here. I don't even know why if I think about it. I mean, I've seen Suso play briefly and I've seen Sterling play, and the little (in Suso's case, very little) game time they've had, they've only impressed... but still, I wouldn't have thought it would get me as excited as it did pre match. Suso's first touch and caressing of the ball and Sterling's sheer dynamism was/has added a new lease of life to the utter mediocrity of Downing and Henderson/Kuyt from last season. They're world's apart. It's easy to get carried away of course, but these lads (especially Sterling since he's had more game time) have come in and just taken up the challenge. It feels amazing that I can call them "lads"... they're 6/7 years my junior!

The Sahin, Gerrard and Allen dynamic in midfield was tremendous. I can't wait to see our front 6 get the game time over the next few months, and really see what they can do.

On Pepe; it's definitely worrying. He's making far too many mistakes these days. Not all of them will get punished in terms of goals conceded, but it's becoming a bit too habitual. Whatever the problem is, our coaches need to make sure he gets over it because we need to stop conceding so many soft goals. These days we need to score at least 2 goals a game to win. Which is why I guess we haven't won up until now, because up until now the attack's not really threatened to run rampant. We're used to him getting golden gloves every season- I'd like to see that again.

It's good to finally enjoy a win, and what a win, however. Suarez' goals at Carrow Rd; every single one of them has been beautifully sculpted. He's probably missed at least as many to have scored another hat trick today as well. Love watching him when he's in that mood. We just need that more consistently from him. That's why Torres turned into one of the most devastating strikers in the world at Liverpool. No matter who or where we were playing, he scored goals. He never seemed to go more than a couple of games without scoring, and that dependency on someone to score goals has been missed a lot. I hope Suarez can emerge as that player. The one we can depend on to get a load of goals. I mean, that's what the difference between us and Arsenal was last season in my opinion; both incredibly average teams, it's just that one had a world class striker to call upon whereas the other didn't. Hopefully now, in his 2nd full season, one without any politics or bullshit, he can get into the swing of it and start bagging us goals to take us as high as we can go up the table. The ascent started today.

I can't wait until the next game.
 

[Garstonite]

I thought it was interesting how often we went long in the opening exchanges. It was obviously a tactical move. A pre-emptive thought to counter Norwich's efforts to push high up what must be one of the tighter pitches in the league. The temptation must certainly be there on our lads behalf with Suso, Sterling and Suarez leading the line. How Suarez never got a penalty from the long ball over Barnett is beyond me.

He got his own back though. And some. His second goal may well be the funniest thing I've seen on a football pitch for years. Abuse from the Norwich fans had barely died down before Suarez had the ball nestling in the corner of the net.

On Reina, I'm in Roy's camp. He's offering a lot for us as the "eleventh man". I think he'd be more frustrated that his quick throw-out was inaccurate than the fact Martin's shot rebounded off him. I'd raise a smile if Valero were announced as our new Goalkeeping Coach tomorrow, mind you.

The Skrtel issue is a really interesting one. He was exceptional last season and the prospect of losing him in the summer was frightening. As of now, he's been our third best centre-half this season. He's clearly been slower than Coates at picking up what is required of him. When you question the merits of talented individuals like Skrtel in your starting XI, you know you're heading in the right direction, though.

The 'ole' shouts for the move that resulted in a stabbed effort wide by Suarez was special though. Rodgers' wry smile at the end of it when the camera panned to him spoke volumes. We're getting there. Terrific stuff.

[Col]

With Reina - I love what he does with a ball at his feet. His willingness to find Joe Allen on the half-turn, splitting two strikers in the process, is fantastic. There's no doubting the quality he has in that regard.

What's bothering me, is the bread and butter - the actual goalkeeping side of things.

If you get the chance, have a re-watch of the first 5 minutes of Being: Liverpool, Episode 1.

Around four minutes in, just after the clips of the FA Cup Final goals, there is a montage of goals going against us last season - maybe 5 in total. What I noticed as soon as I saw it, was that other than Chelsea's second in the Cup Final, Reina should've saved every single one of them. Every one. Twice he got megged, twice he got done at his near post, and of course the first goal in the Cup Final rolled right over his leg. At the near post. His positioning, handling, and shot-stopping have all deteriorated over the past couple of years - can anyone honestly say they expect him to win us points on a regular basis anymore?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I'll come back to some other bits later after I have had chance to properly watch the re-run of the match but Downing.  I think it's even simpler than the reasons Roy gave.  He, like Andy Carroll does not fit into our system.  His prime asset is the ability to get up and down the flank and provide a string of pacy accurate crosses in early.  The plan, I presume, was for Carroll to get on the end of these and bag 20+ goals a season.  In the end Carroll and Downing failed to build any sort of understanding and so the plan failed.

Brendan has abandoned this plan, let Carroll go and rather than a rampaging buffalo up front we have three of buzzing mosquitoes harrying the defence.  Downing is the belt man feeding ammunition to a 20mm cannon that has been removed from the battlefield.  I would be amazed if he is here next season.

[The 5th Benitle]

Unless the record needle's stuck, I'm sure it's just 'Pass and move, it's the Liverpool groove'
 
I think yesterday was the day we saw the great stuff we've seen in the Cup/EL team make it's way into the first team. And I love it. It's just fearless, the precociousness of youth. Add some experience to the mix and it's quite intoxicating.
 
The players who'd slow our passing game down are being phased out, and the club's most exciting prospects are getting a go. Brilliant. It won't work in every game, of course it won't but the early signs are that we'll dominate some of the weaker teams, which of course has been our Achilles heel in recent seasons.
 
On Pepe - difficult to say. A lot of people are laying the blame at the feet of the goalkeeping coach and that may be the case - or maybe more specifically the absence of his former coach. And I don't mean Mike Kelly *shudders*. I'm sure it's a confidence issue to an extent, and a bad run of form. But it's gone on for quite a while now. What to do? Well we are clearly not going to replace him with the likeable but limited Jones, or the AWOL Doni so the answer has to be to look at the coaching doesn't it? And back Pepe to come good again.
 
The one worry yesterday was the continuation of the habit of conceding goals on the counter. It's very simple to say 'Just add Lucas' but I am simple, and I think that's what we're missing. Some midfield options we have now. Henderson is effectively 4th or 5th choice for England, and 6th choice for Liverpool. Not bad that.
 
A hugely encouraging performance, and our journey under Brendan has started. It's gonna be some ride.

[royhendo]

One weird development is my brain singing "Suso Sterling Sa-a-hin Suarez" to the tune of a speeded up Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, over and over.

[Barney_Rubble]

Duuuuuude, decrease the dose, man....

[Z e u s]

Some stats for you to digest before replying regarding our performance today.

Possession 67.1%
Duels won 57.1%
Aeriel Duals won 63.2%
Interceptions 14
Completed passes 700
Pass Accuracy 90.1% (FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS!!!)
Pass Accuracy in opponents half 80.8%
Fouls Conceeded 6

Death by football!

[007.lankyguy]

My quote from the Playmaking Style thread yesterday

Thought today was an excellent example of how to entice a team with the ball and exploit the space. Norwich were poor defensively, weren't compact and it was easy to break their lines but thought it was interesting how we controlled the play to hurt them.

At no point did we panic in possession. We recycled the play to Reina where we had a number of options. Because Norwich were trying to press high with their two strikers, our centre backs would pull wide to make themselves available for a short pass from Reina. If it went to Skrtel, he often played it to Wisdom who was playing deeper than Johnson. From there he would often play it down the line for Suso who would then turn, either by himself or by playing a pass inside and then receiving it (by which time he would have turned to face the play) and playing a forward pass.

If the ball went to Agger, he would always be looking for the vertical/forward pass to someone between the lines, generally Sahin or Sterling moving inside and while that pass was being made, Johnson would move up looking for the pass from the player who had just received between the lines and from there he could attack 1v1.

If both centre backs were being loosely marked, Allen would just drop into the middle to receive and because the Norwich central midfielders didn't want to come that far to pressure, he usually had time to turn and face the play. From there he would have a number of options to play a forward pass to.

The point is we all heard Rodgers talk in that fans interview a few weeks ago about facing teams who press high and how at Swansea he got Vorm to try and bypass that first line of pressure with a long pass and from there turn and have a 4v4. Well today showed that general idea, although generally it was Agger or Allen playing a forward pass along the floor rather than Reina having to play longer. Norwich were disorganised and were so vulnerable with space behind their backline but we exploited that. We enticed them with our short build up, found the forward pass, found space to turn and then we could always take advantage with Sterling or Suarez's mobility. Our game plan worked superbly well and although Norwich were poorly organised, we exploited it to maximum effect.

[Funky_Gibbons]

In the build-up to the game yesterday I think I was more nervous then I have been for a long time. Not that I was particularly concerned about the threat of Norwich - far from it - but there was enormous pressure on Rodger's to win this game after our start in the Premier League. We have all been encouraged and heartened by the youngsters in the cup competitions and most of the performances in the league had been more than acceptable, but without points on the board the growing grumbles from some of the fans about the manager and the direction of the club would have been growing louder and gaining more support.

In the end these concerns were extinguished after about 90-seconds when Suarez drilled a shot into the bottom corner. The rest of the match was a joy to watch, some fantastic one and two touch football with flair and attacking intent. There was obviously the now customary keeper mistake and defender error but it shouldn't take the gloss of what was another supreme performance.

Firstly, Pepe Reina. What is going on? I can't be the only one who's very concerned about his performances over the last 18 months. I know he's a great guy, and I know he loves the club, and I know that at his best he's better than anyone else in the League - but how do we fix him? Is it a case of bringing back Xavi Valero? Or is there something more?

   

Honestly think he needs some time out of the team, whether we have the cover in reserve is another question. A few years ago whenever a team used to shoot from distance against us I had absolutely no concerns about it as I was always confident that Reina would save it. Now, both Reina and me look nervous wrecks every time a shot comes in.

Second, Martin Skrtel - on form, he's brilliant. He won more headers last season than Kompany and Lescott combined. He struggles sometimes when not next to Agger, but overall his level over the past 18 months has been very impressive. My question is, how long will it take him to fully adjust to this system, and to be comfortable enough on the ball to provide an extra outlet and overload, without the nervousness that has led to a few individual mistakes this year? And as a follow-on, should we be altering the system slightly to encourage him to simplify his role until he does adjust, and leave the penetrative stuff to Agger?

We must cut-out these defensive errors that have plagued us this season, we were fortunate that these latest errors came at times when we were far enough in the lead to prevent the team becoming nervous or giving Norwich any hope of a come-back. These mistakes have been discussed to death in the relevant players threads but I think only one or two of the goals we have conceded this season have been down to Rodger's system and the rest have been individual errors. 

Thirdly, Steven Gerrard. He's proved he can play that disciplined role in midfield, distributing the ball then moving into space to receive it again. Can he do it consistantly? Can he become our version of Paul Scholes?

I know it's begrudging having to compare our legend to Paul Scholes!! But it is worth pointing to those people like me, who get so excited about Allen's pass completion rates for us, that Scholes yesterday completed 135 of his 148 passes yesterday against Spurs, which is incredible. It is an interesting question whether Gerrard could become as disciplined as that over a consistent period, I cannot answer that and only time will tell. 

Following on from that, how does our midfield fit together when everyone is fit? Lucas is world-class at what he does, Allen just does not give the ball away, Gerrard is Gerrard and the one most likely to pull something out of the bag when we really need it, and Sahin is steadily looking more and more like Luka Modric with every passing performance. Add to that the undoubted raw talents of Henderson and Shelvey, and we could be set in the midfield for the best part of a decade - but how do we make it work this season?

This is a great problem to have. I think sometimes we get too hung-up on who is going to start once everyone is fit. We are in four competitions this season so there are plenty of games for all of them to play in. In the 2008 season I pretty much ignored the pre-match build up to games as our squad was so strong I knew that whichever team was put out I didn't have any concerns. Now, I'm not saying this team is as good as that one, but with a lot of our options now I have similar feelings.   

My next question is about Stewart Downing - have Assaidi, Sterling, and Suso all surpassed him now, or is this a short-term thing? If they have, what do we do with him? In the past, we'd have loaned him out for a pittance. Is Brendan capable of getting his Aston Villa form out of him? If not, do we need to spend even more money trying to replace McManaman? It seems like we've spent a hell of a lot of time and money doing that!

Yes, Assaidi, Sterling and Suso are all ahead of him and rightly so. His performance in midweek against WBA was gruesome. Can Brendan get his Villa form out of him? I can't even see him getting the game time to show what he is capable of at the moment.

Finally... Luis Suarez CAN play as a number 9. He CAN finish. He just needs mobile players around him, creating spaces for him to spin in to. 5 goals in his last 6 league games, I believe it is. Only Van Persie is in better form - and Suarez hasn't even played well until today! In a system that sees us have so much of the ball, so close to the opposition's goal... exactly how good can Suarez be?

   

Still not convinced, still think he is more a scorer of great goals rather than a great goalscorer. His hat-trick was superb but it is interesting that the easiest chance he had in the game he put wide when one-on-one. But he is our best option there until at least January.

[Geppvindh's]

Completed passes 700

Barcelona had an average pass completion of around 600+ last season. That is an outrageous number of passes for a team in its formative stages. Even against United, we completed about 550 passes. It's amazing how a set of players, with some likeminded additions could quickly adapt and change themselves to suit to a better style. Credit to the bunch, they've been working hard, and it will begin to pay off.

[Max_powers]

Barcelona had an average pass completion of around 600+ last season. That is an outrageous number of passes for a team in its formative stages. Even against United, we completed about 550 passes. It's amazing how a set of players, with some likeminded additions could quickly adapt and change themselves to suit to a better style. Credit to the bunch, they've been working hard, and it will begin to pay off.

I think there was an opta stat that said that we have never made more passes in a game in PL era

[jeremyh94]

This was a pretty definitive display of how to play away against one of the lesser sides and it should start to win us a good few points.
The next trick is how to play at home in the league against a stubborn side that packs its own penalty area and hopes for a goal on the break. Step forward Stoke City......

[Eeyore]

Absolutely loved the first hour of the game. We played with aggression, composure and some excellent passing and movement. We looked incredibly dangerous in the final third which is a contrast to how we played at times last season especially away from home. We seem to have far more patience in the final third and as a result far more incision. Loved the way Sahin got ahead of the ball for the first goal and loved the link up play of those in and around Suarez.

It was nice to see the Suarez who plays for Uruguay, the Suarez that trusts his team mates and a player who now knows he doesn't have to continually try and beat three or four men. Indeed it was noticeable as a whole side that because of the excellent movement how few times we actually had to take a player on. We had options and rarely had to actually risk losing possession by taking players on.

Probably being hypercritical but it royally pissed me off why we tried to humiliate Norwich with the ball in our own half when we should of been ripping them apart at the other end. Despite the ridiculous possession domination we actually somehow managed to lose the last 30 minutes 2-1. United of 07-08 would of put 6 or 7 past Norwich without even thinking about it. The balance isn't quite right especially against the counter attack but hopefully that will come as players get accustomed to the system.

 

[BabuYagu]

...snip...

Still not convinced, still think he is more a scorer of great goals rather than a great goalscorer. His hat-trick was superb but it is interesting that the easiest chance he had in the game he put wide when one-on-one. But he is our best option there until at least January.

This season
6 goals from 8 games in all competitions
5 goals from 6 league games
Including the tail end of last season
10 goals from 13 league games
13 goals from 19 games in all competitions

That is an impressive record and I have to ask, does it matter what types of goals he scores? I think Suarez is someone who plays too much in his own head. I remember in the game last season he got one on one on his hattrick, had time to think about it and tried to chip the keeper putting it well over. However, when he just plays on instinct he is a world beater. Now maybe this means he is someone who will not score his 1 on 1 chances.... but if he levels that out by scoring ridiculous goals that a pure finisher wouldn´t be able to make, does it matter? It will be frustrating as fuck to watch at times and when we fail to win and he missed an easy chance we will beg for a Hunterlaar. However, in the games where we struggle to create and he gets us a goal out of nothing that Huntelaar wouldn´t have been able to make, it evens out then doesn´t it?

I think this may be one of those "grass is always greener" arguements for me. He scores enough goals and for me, how he scores them is completely irrelevant. I think we do need another option to him though but would your Huntelaar type be willing to sit on the bench? This is something we would need to add from within the squad. Yesil is probably the man in the coming seasons.

Until then though, we do need another senior player capable of offering a threat up front. However I would like them to be versatile and able to play either wide or in one of the deeper positions. Walcott is actually starting to look ideal. I´m coming around to Rodgers thinking that Suarez needs to be central to be the very best he can be. That said I wouldn´t say no to Llorente on a bosman or Soldado if Valencia start asset stripping again. If a player of that quality is available at a bargain price you just have to take it.

[Livo.85]

I was laughing out loud each time we scored & grinning with glee at the fantastic passing & with all the tricks & skill to add, indeed fun it was.
From Norwich's perspective it was "death by football". Although it wasn't by any means a clean kill.
So in attempting to analyze the game by looking over the gloss I will perhaps state the obvious - 2 goals conceded. 3 against West Brom & Young Boys. 2 also conceded against Arsenal & both Manchester clubs.
It wasn't just the fact that we conceded 2 goals again. Norwich could of had up to 5 goals themselves had they been more clinical. Defending is no doubt the cause for concern.

I agree with the points made by Roy & Baz regarding Pepe. The save he made from the deflected offside shot was world class, as was the near post save in the 8th minute. The parry for the goal obviously wasn't.
His distribution was superb with the obvious exception. Is Pepe to blame? No. Can he improve? Without question. That isn't any different for the entire team though.
It's the entire team that is responsible for defending. The goalkeeper is merely the last line of defense.
We are great at pressing to force the opposition to either play long or backwards in the middle 3rd of the pitch but our transitional play from when we lose the ball & defending our penalty area from wide positions are still major issues.

Lessons to learn:

When Norwich had managed to put pressure on us in our final 3rd of the pitch in the 8th minute, this was the 1st warning signs in the game.
Surman brings the ball forward unchallenged on the left past Suso who has been caught pressing to high up the pitch & doesn't recover quickly enough.
Wisdom doesn't get close enough to Jackson to prevent the cross & when Skrtel's interception finds Wisdom he panics & plays it out instead of finding Suso in space.
From the throw in you can perhaps debate that we don't push up quick enough & are defending too deep. This means Agger's headed interception isn't a clearance & Sterling is found to far forward & responsible for another dangerous cross.
Wisdom is badly out of position back post & but for the brilliance of Reina it could be 1-1 & a very different game.

So while the West Brom round table was titled "The Kids Are Alright", this passage of play highlights how those 3 kids have plenty still to learn. Although certainly aren't solely to blame for poor defending during the game.
The next Norwich chance is again from out wide - Suso & Wisdom allow Garrido to cross, Johnson loses his man at the back post where Jackson receives the ball in space only to blaze over.

Second half, defending a throw in on the left, Johnson gets skinned, Suso loses his man at the back post & Wisdom fails to judge the flight of the ball & miss the header. Snodgrass misses a tap in.
With Rodger's fielding inexperience at both RW & RB it was puzzling that Norwich didn't seek to target this side of the pitch more & against a stronger opponent this area could of been better exploited.
However Johnson again is culpable on more than one occasion defending at LB.

Now the 1st goal conceded: Pepe wants to initiate a quick counter. Fair enough, sometimes you won't find your target.
Johnson gets to close to his man, leaving space on his inside & the gap between him, Agger & Gerrard is huge. The shot comes in & Agger & Skrtel aren't anticipating the parry.
So while the kids were responsible earlier it is the senior players responsible for the goal.

The second goal conceded stems from Wisdom pushing forward to intercept an anticipated short pass in midfield (which he was very good at earlier), this leaves space for Holt to exploit & of course Skrtel gets it horribly wrong.
Carragher has come on & you have to wonder if Agger isn't playing at LB he could of been much quicker at covering for Skrtel & getting to Holt.
In fact Carragher runs vertically instead of diagonally to Holt.

So while the OP has questioned both Pepe & Skrtel it's clear to see that there are more contributing factors to conceding. We need Johnson at RB. Wisdom showed promise but is still far to raw for the league.
Coates should be challenging Skrtel for starts. Possibly even coming in ahead of Robinson & shifting Agger to fullback. Either way Robinson should be ahead of Wisdom based on what I've seen.
Suso was a liability defensively but should be a permanent fixture in the cup comps with Assaidi & Borini coming in.

Regarding Gerrard, he was rescued by Wisdom on one occasion where his concentration was found wanting. Apart from that it was his second quality performance in a row. Better than Scholes!

What a dilemma for Brendan to have when everyone in midfield is fit. Although with our luck by the time that happens we will probably have an injury crisis in attack, which sees Gerrard pushed forward.

The fact that Rodger's took off Johnson for Carragher said a lot. Perfect opportunity to give Downing experience at left back. Carragher needs anything but experience. Downing is done.

Suarez as the 9? Hell yes! It's no coincidence that he got a hatrick with intelligent, fast, technically gifted players either side of him. Will be interesting to see if Assaidi, Pacheco or Cole can win a place to support with Borini over Suso & Sterling.

[BabuYagu]

Probably being hypercritical but it royally pissed me off why we tried to humiliate Norwich with the ball in our own half when we should of been ripping them apart at the other end. Despite the ridiculous possession domination we actually somehow managed to lose the last 30 minutes 2-1. United of 07-08 would of put 6 or 7 past Norwich without even thinking about it. The balance isn't quite right especially against the counter attack but hopefully that will come as players get accustomed to the system.

I firmly felt at that point Al that it became more about energy conservation than hammering a few more nails into an already buried coffin.

We´ve a tough fixture against Udinese on Thursday and I would expect a few of the guys who played today to feature mixed in with the fringe players and some kids. Plus if we keep going in the cup competitions it will be a long long season in terms of number of games. Taking your foot off the gas when the oppertunity presents itself is absolutely the right thing to do. That said if it was a big club, or Everton, I think we would have left it in 6th gear just to send a message, damage the opponents morale etc.

[Eeyore]

I firmly felt at that point Al that it became more about energy conservation than hammering a few more nails into an already buried coffin.

We´ve a tough fixture against Udinese on Thursday and I would expect a few of the guys who played today to feature mixed in with the fringe players and some kids. Plus if we keep going in the cup competitions it will be a long long season in terms of number of games. Taking your foot off the gas when the oppertunity presents itself is absolutely the right thing to do. That said if it was a big club, or Everton, I think we would have left it in 6th gear just to send a message, damage the opponents morale etc.

I think we probably used more energy actually keeping it though, to have options on the ball you have to actually run a lot. You look at Barca towards the end of a season and they are absolutely knackered. Teams will only come up against us two or three times a season we will be playing with that intensity 50-60 times a season. Sometimes you are better getting behind the ball staying organised, staying in position and counter attacking.

Once a team is well beaten often they just want to see a game out and get off the pitch.

[Max_powers]

I think we probably used more energy actually keeping it though, to have options on the ball you have to actually run a lot. You look at Barca towards the end of a season and they are absolutely knackered. Teams will only come up against us two or three times a season we will be playing with that intensity 50-60 times a season. Sometimes you are better getting behind the ball staying organised, staying in position and counter attacking.

Once a team is well beaten often they just want to see a game out and get off the pitch.

At Barcelona there is not much rotation in players. Players like Messi often end up playing close to 60 games a season but Rodgers has shown that he has no problem throwing kids in for the cup comptetion's.  Also Dropping deep and playing on counter seems like its not the type of style Rodgers is promoting.

[Mr_Shane]

Dropping deep and countering is the Roy way. If we really want to play that sort of football, we need a different set of players for it to work.

[Gnurglan]

Well deserved win that. Felt like we had the ball the whole match. Suarez looked like the player I remember from Eurogoals when he played for Ajax. Suso, Sterling and Gerrard gave him support. The attack when Suarez dropped deep and Gerrard came in a forward run and almost scored from a header, that's the kind of runs we've been missing. If we get them, we will see the best of Suarez. Shame about the conceded goals, but we really owned the game and we scored five. Very pleased with the performance.

[Funky_Gibbons]

This season
6 goals from 8 games in all competitions
5 goals from 6 league games
Including the tail end of last season
10 goals from 13 league games
13 goals from 19 games in all competitions

That is an impressive record and I have to ask, does it matter what types of goals he scores? I think Suarez is someone who plays too much in his own head. I remember in the game last season he got one on one on his hattrick, had time to think about it and tried to chip the keeper putting it well over. However, when he just plays on instinct he is a world beater. Now maybe this means he is someone who will not score his 1 on 1 chances.... but if he levels that out by scoring ridiculous goals that a pure finisher wouldn´t be able to make, does it matter? It will be frustrating as fuck to watch at times and when we fail to win and he missed an easy chance we will beg for a Hunterlaar. However, in the games where we struggle to create and he gets us a goal out of nothing that Huntelaar wouldn´t have been able to make, it evens out then doesn´t it?

I think this may be one of those "grass is always greener" arguements for me. He scores enough goals and for me, how he scores them is completely irrelevant. I think we do need another option to him though but would your Huntelaar type be willing to sit on the bench? This is something we would need to add from within the squad. Yesil is probably the man in the coming seasons.

Until then though, we do need another senior player capable of offering a threat up front. However I would like them to be versatile and able to play either wide or in one of the deeper positions. Walcott is actually starting to look ideal. I´m coming around to Rodgers thinking that Suarez needs to be central to be the very best he can be. That said I wouldn´t say no to Llorente on a bosman or Soldado if Valencia start asset stripping again. If a player of that quality is available at a bargain price you just have to take it.

I would just like to say I am not trying to be critical of Suarez, we all know what a great player he is, it's just that I am not yet convinced that he is clinical enough to play the lead role in the team. I would like him to play either a wide position or in a 'free role' similar to how McManaman used to play.

10 goals from his last 13 appearances sounds great but we should remember 6 of them were in two games against the same opposition. Where I feel he needs to improve is games like WBA in the first game of the season when he had a simple header and one or two other chances that he missed when the game was still 0-0 and proved crucial.

When I said he is the scorer of great goals rather than a great goal scorer, I meant that he has the ability to beat three players and lob the goal keeper, but is just as likely to miss a one-on-one. The problem is that those presentable chances that he misses should be bread and butter for an out and out goal scorer and those chances will occure more often in a game than those wonder goals.

[Eeyore]

Dropping deep and countering is the Roy way. If we really want to play that sort of football, we need a different set of players for it to work.

Who said drop deep, if they want to push on you meet them in the middle of the pitch make the pitch as small as possible and take the sting out of the game. We dropped incredibly deep yesterday and passed it across the back and Reina even chipped a lofted ball into Allen that he had to scramble for. Why continue to make the pitch as big as possible and continue to have to work to keep the ball when you have the game won. Make the pitch smaller and then when they overcommit punish them.

We were provoking Norwich with the ball in our defensive third and we got punished for it.

[The 5th Benitle]

We were provoking Norwich with the ball in our defensive third and we got punished for it.

We won 5-2. That's all that matters. We wouldn't play like that if we were drawing at the time.

[scatman]

Did Pepe set up the blatant penalty for Suarez?
I'm a little worried by him. Everything else seems to be falling into place, we're going to go on a good run now. Our young lads are coming in and playing with great confidence and easily adapting to the way we play.

[Eeyore]

We won 5-2. That's all that matters. We wouldn't play like that if we were drawing at the time.

Should we play like that at any time though?

[Oscarmac]

One concern is the space behind our full backs, the stronger teams will try an exploit this.

[The 5th Benitle]

Should we play like that at any time though?

Yes - it conserves energy. I'm aware you disputed that above, I disagree with you though

[Eeyore]

Yes - it conserves energy. I'm aware you disputed that above, I disagree with you though

In that case at least Skrtel's intercepted back pass against City had a silver lining.

[Mr_Shane]

Oh I misunderstand, I thought you meant in general - which was how Roy set up his teams to play. Maybe I think a better idea or comaprison for me might have been Rafa's title challenging squad, then we had players who could actually press all over the pitch, but with a few substitutions and/or a change in tactics or formation we could also sit back and absorb whatever was thrown at us. I think that that requires certain sort of players to pull off, which we had with Xavi Alonso who could launch us directly into attack with a pass and also Masch who went around tackling any player that dared to come near the penalty box, and  also Carragher. I don't think we have those type of players, and Carragher does not seem to handle attackers the way he did under Rafa.

Maybe that's not the way Rodgers wants to play. It seems to me Rodgers wants intelligent players who know what to do with the ball, where to go when their teammates have the ball and how to press to win the ball quickly and smartly. I am not sure whether he has been interested in tenacious tacklers like Mascherano and I think you would need a few of these sort of players to be able to absorb offense and go on the counterattack.

[The 5th Benitle]

In that case at least Skrtel's intercepted back pass against City had a silver lining.

Brilliant. Pick one mistake to 'prove your point'. Classy.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Brilliant. Pick one mistake to 'prove your point'. Classy.

He is right though, control of the game doesn't have to mean control of the ball. Norwich were pushing high all game, and we could of used the pace we had the wing on the last 20 to counter attack. Unlike Barca we have players that can defend in a traditional way. Question is can Brendan coach them to switch systems? Or are we stuck with one.

[koolkamal]

Just a quick comment on Reina. While he has been pretty poor of late I watched the game today and thought he was much better than before. Yeah he made the one mistake and couple kicks weren't the best but overall thought he was really good much improved. Made some great saves, some quick accurate kicking/throwing, great with ball at his feet drawing out at least one of Norwich forwards creating space for teammates.

[Rohit]

Absolutely loved the first hour of the game. We played with aggression, composure and some excellent passing and movement. We looked incredibly dangerous in the final third which is a contrast to how we played at times last season especially away from home. We seem to have far more patience in the final third and as a result far more incision. Loved the way Sahin got ahead of the ball for the first goal and loved the link up play of those in and around Suarez.

It was nice to see the Suarez who plays for Uruguay, the Suarez that trusts his team mates and a player who now knows he doesn't have to continually try and beat three or four men. Indeed it was noticeable as a whole side that because of the excellent movement how few times we actually had to take a player on. We had options and rarely had to actually risk losing possession by taking players on.

Probably being hypercritical but it royally pissed me off why we tried to humiliate Norwich with the ball in our own half when we should of been ripping them apart at the other end. Despite the ridiculous possession domination we actually somehow managed to lose the last 30 minutes 2-1. United of 07-08 would of put 6 or 7 past Norwich without even thinking about it. The balance isn't quite right especially against the counter attack but hopefully that will come as players get accustomed to the system.

Thats because the players that had to be beat, were beaten in midfield mate. Every single time allen got the ball he looked to see if he could turn his man and eliminate a whole midfield and he usually did so. He wasn't the only one, gerrard and suso also did this aswell as sahin. This meant when the forwards got the ball they had one man to turn and they had enough about them to do it. What was great to see was how gerrard and sahin alternated yesterday and took turns to support the striker and make runs into the box from the second line which were often not picked up due to the variance in our attack.

That performance has been coming for some time now and its great to see the patience the whole team has but its down trust isn't it. Suarez clearly trusts those on the pitch yesterday as they give him the balls he wants and pass it to him with less to do once he gets it to create an attack.

[LiverpoolForever]

In that case at least Skrtel's intercepted back pass against City had a silver lining.

That was an individual mistake , is Rodgers or any other manager for that matter going to rid the team of mistakes?

Surely overall we played really well , defensively maybe we need a change of personnel with Coates given a chance.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Thats because the players that had to be beat, were beaten in midfield mate. Every single time allen got the ball he looked to see if he could turn his man and eliminate a whole midfield and he usually did so. He wasn't the only one, gerrard and suso also did this aswell as sahin. This meant when the forwards got the ball they had one man to turn and they had enough about them to do it. What was great to see was how gerrard and sahin alternated yesterday and took turns to support the striker and make runs into the box from the second line which were often not picked up due to the variance in our attack.

That performance has been coming for some time now and its great to see the patience the whole team has but its down trust isn't it. Suarez clearly trusts those on the pitch yesterday as they give him the balls he wants and pass it to him with less to do once he gets it to create an attack.

How often will the other team make the mistake of pushing high up on our midfield? Norwich did the exact wrong things to do against a team like us. Stoke will be a far better test of our footballing system and our flexibity.

[Suareznumber7]

I think we probably used more energy actually keeping it though, to have options on the ball you have to actually run a lot. You look at Barca towards the end of a season and they are absolutely knackered. Teams will only come up against us two or three times a season we will be playing with that intensity 50-60 times a season. Sometimes you are better getting behind the ball staying organised, staying in position and counter attacking.

Once a team is well beaten often they just want to see a game out and get off the pitch.

Wow......no, defending for long stretches at a time is going to tire you out quicker than keeping possession will. We simply need to learn to rest with the ball. Keep it simple and move the ball nice and quicks