Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Mutton Geoff]

Why?

Probably for a similar reason that Yorkie states the next leader cannot support Palestine of have been involved with 'stop the war', two sides of the same coin and totally irrelevant barriers being promoted as fact.

[Mutton Geoff]

Why were Corbyn and Pidcock at a gala celebrating an industry that caused dreadful health problems for its workers and was one of the worst for creating greenhouse gases? Shifting away from coal to renewable energy and other sources including nuclear has seen a major decline in greenhouse gases in the UK.

Isn't it reasonable to say that Corbyn would have kept the mines open for political reasons and carried on polluting while maintaining his objection to nuclear power?

I think you will find although obviously you know but didnt suite your purpose that the gala is not to celebrate the mining industry but to honour and celebrate the mineworkers and their culture and the miners unions and unionism in general.

As for your last line and to use your style of delivery would Corbyn keep them open who knows, but did you applaud the way Thatcher closed them down?

Seeing as you think it was such a great idea.

[Zeb]

Miliband stopped opposing austerity for the same reason some around Corbyn don't want to oppose Brexit. It's popular with a lot of people. Miliband's problem wasn't that he didn't try to convince those people he was serious but that they didn't believe him. (Rightly so, he'd have backtracked on it.)

'No true Scotsman' defences of Corbyn being crap are fun. 'We can't win unless we do the things needed to win - and who wants to do them? Life sucks.'

[TepidT2O]

I think we’ve gone a bit off topic.  The closing of the mines was 35 years ago.  It’s probably not that relevant to the politics of the day.

[west_london_red]

So what is "naive" about what I originally said? You agree with me that a good left-wing leader could overcome those odds.

A left wing leader can overcome the odds in terms of becoming PM, I’m not sure they could overcome the negative media in that they will always have those odds stacked against them in that respect.

[Mutton Geoff]

I think we’ve gone a bit off topic.  The closing of the mines was 35 years ago.  It’s probably not that relevant to the politics of the day.

Well if Alan adds it to the discussion to score points it will be replied to relevant or not, maybe my question was too difficult ?

[TepidT2O]

Well if Alan adds it to the discussion to score points it will be replied to relevant or not, maybe my question was too difficult ?

Personally I think the whole thing is yesterday’s argument.  For better or for worse it’s irrekecavt.  Even though we are still dealing with the fallout from it.

[redmark]

Probably for a similar reason that Yorkie states the next leader cannot support Palestine of have been involved with 'stop the war', two sides of the same coin and totally irrelevant barriers being promoted as fact.

I'm not Yorkie, and you're not Trada.

But on the point - to Trada - Labour Friends of Israel has existed since 1957. When did it become an unacceptable part of the broad church?

(One I may disagree with on almost point of engagement with Israel, but that's the point - the Labour party is supposed to be broad enough to accept different views on difficult subjects).

[TepidT2O]

I'm not Yorkie, and you're not Trada.

But on the point - to Trada - Labour Friends of Israel has existed since 1957. When did it become an unacceptable part of the broad church?

(One I may disagree with on almost point of engagement with Israel, but that's the point - the Labour party is supposed to be broad enough to accept different views on difficult subjects).

And you can be a friend of Israel and support the rights of Palestinians.

That people often can’t speaks a lot for the polarisation that happens 

[west_london_red]

And you can be a friend of Israel and support the rights of Palestinians.

That people often can’t speaks a lot for the polarisation that happens 

And you can support the rights of Palestinians without being an anti-Semite.

[TepidT2O]

And you can support the rights of Palestinians without being an anti-Semite.

indeed you can.

Which makes it odd that so few manage this.

[redmark]

And you can support the rights of Palestinians without being an anti-Semite.

Agreed; though plenty of people seem to struggle with the language to do so without blurring the lines.


Interesting example on twitter today.

Eight responses to Dr Rosena Allin-Khan, Labour MP for Tooting, following her discussing with an Israeli minister over recent weeks ways to improve Palestinian mother and children access to healthcare.

https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1156145440577982465/photo/1
https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1156145440577982465/photo/2

Dr Rosena seems to regard all 8 responses as anti-Semitic (https://twitter.com/DrRosena/status/1156145410857218048).

A number of replies agree; many "don't see anything anti-Semitic at all" - until the 'cunting Yid licker' comment is pointed out to them ("sorry, didn't notice that one").

Personally, I get 5/8 as being anti-Semitic under the IHRA definition, plus one borderline. Two I would argue are anti-Israeli-policy, without verging into anti-semitic; though one of those I can see how people may be offended (without nececssarily having the right to be so). A vaguely interesting exercise to see who sees what as anti-Semitic.

[Skeeve]

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

But that statement is the biggest obstacle to a genuine left/socialist government in this country.

The real issue isn't conservative voters. It's liberals/moderates who feel the need to be wooed by some charismatic orator before they'll vote for a party promising to stop our government from killing the poor and broadening the gap between the haves and have not's.

That is such a ludicrous claim, the reason people are deserting labour in droves has nothing to do with oratory ability, it is because labour are persisting in this idiotic attempt to woo leave voters and support brexit, if they cannot see how catastrophically bad it will be for the poor in particular and the whole of the country in general then it basically renders any other policies they have as irrelevant.

The implication that labour are the only party on the left that are against killing the poor or widening the wealth gap is fairly daft too. 

[RedGlen]

That is such a ludicrous claim, the reason people are deserting labour in droves has nothing to do with oratory ability, it is because labour are persisting in this idiotic attempt to woo leave voters and support brexit, if they cannot see how catastrophically bad it will be for the poor in particular and the whole of the country in general then it basically renders any other policies they have as irrelevant.

The implication that labour are the only party on the left that are against killing the poor or widening the wealth gap is fairly daft too. 

Well its no wonder that Labour have lost so much ground to the SNP/Plaid Cymru in Scotland/Wales, they may be pro-Independence, but they are also widely seen as centre-left parties who are both more competent than Labour, but are also seen to be compassionate and care about the poor. It's one thing to tell people what you are for and against, but its also another to seem competent and capable of delivering on said principles. In fact, in Scotland at the moment, some polls are putting the SNP at gaining all 59 seats in Scotland.

This is from April, and its the Scotsman, but its perhaps indicative of feelings up here:

On key policy issues, Labour and the Conservatives also find their toughest critics in Scotland. Given marks out of ten, Ruth Davidson’s Tories get 3.26 on crime, 3.31 on health, 3.11 on immigration and asylum, and 3.46 on the economy. Meanwhile Richard Leonard’s Labour are get 3.14 on crime, 3.63 on health, 2.90 on immigration and asylum, and 2.94 on the economy.

The poll includes the SNP when asking voters about values they associate with each party. 40% of respondents said the nationalists were “out of touch”, compared to 67% for Labour and 76% for the Tories.

9% said the SNP were “only for the rich”, compared to 21% for Labour and 72% for the Tories. 37% believe the SNP are “incompetent”, against 61% who say the same for Labour, and 71% for the Tories.

And asked which party “backs hard-working people on an average wage”, 45% said the SNP, while 34% said Labour and just 11% said the Tories.

Pollsters spoke to voters in the areas of Airdrie and Shotts, Motherwell and Wishaw, Dunfermline and West Fife, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, Falkirk, Linlithgow and East Falkirk.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/general-election/poll-tories-and-labour-have-mountain-to-climb-to-catch-snp-in-scotland-1-4903849

[Zeb]

Personally, I get 5/8 as being anti-Semitic under the IHRA definition, plus one borderline. Two I would argue are anti-Israeli-policy, without verging into anti-semitic; though one of those I can see how people may be offended (without nececssarily having the right to be so). A vaguely interesting exercise to see who sees what as anti-Semitic.

Without checking IHRA, I get five which should be really obvious to everyone, although obviously not, and I'd want a bit more context to the other three about precisely what was meant.

[Red Beret]

That is such a ludicrous claim, the reason people are deserting labour in droves has nothing to do with oratory ability, it is because labour are persisting in this idiotic attempt to woo leave voters and support brexit, if they cannot see how catastrophically bad it will be for the poor in particular and the whole of the country in general then it basically renders any other policies they have as irrelevant.

The implication that labour are the only party on the left that are against killing the poor or widening the wealth gap is fairly daft too. 

Personally I'm very tired of this argument that I should vote Labour solely because they are the only party that has a realistic chance of beating the conservatives.  Even pre-Referendum it was a stupid argument - with Corbyn in charge, nobody had a realistic chance of beating the conservatives; and given the political upheaval since May took over it's pretty obvious neither the Tories nor Labour command the widespread support they once did.

Nobody is beating anybody outright come the next election, which means parties will be forced to work together and hammer out a compromise - which is also why Boris will try to ram No Deal up the UK's arse before an election is called.

The most insulting thing about that argument for me though is this idea that I should just GIVE Labour my vote, when they are doing zip to offer realistic representation.  No dice - my vote, my choice.  They need to earn it, not blag it.  I don't get a pay rise for doing f-all, so why should Labour get my vote?

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Why are posh kids attracted to Labour?

Is it because they don't meet the Tories posh criteria so settle for the runners up?

i think it’s them ‘rebelling’ and trying to be common people by joining the current Labour Party

Without checking IHRA, I get five which should be really obvious to everyone, although obviously not, and I'd want a bit more context to the other three about precisely what was meant.

to be honest anyone in the current climate who is vociferously anti Israeli government and on the left/pro corbyn isn’t getting the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their true intentions

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

i think it’s them ‘rebelling’ and trying to be common people by joining the current Labour Party

Someone should write a song about that type of person...it could be a hit.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Someone should write a song about that type of person...it could be a hit.

james Schneider would make a great Jarvis cocker

[Mutton Geoff]

I'm not Yorkie, and you're not Trada.

But on the point - to Trada - Labour Friends of Israel has existed since 1957. When did it become an unacceptable part of the broad church?

(One I may disagree with on almost point of engagement with Israel, but that's the point - the Labour party is supposed to be broad enough to accept different views on difficult subjects).

Well you basically agreed with the point i was making,  both comments by the two others are clearly wrong if we are a broad church. I agree with your friends of Israel point  but do you also agree with some support for the plight of the  people in Palestine if only on the humanity basis of it or lack of it.

[Mutton Geoff]

indeed you can.

Which makes it odd that so few manage this.

Not too rake over the coals but that statement of yours is quite inflamatory, I have not got the figures but there are thousands (conservative estimate with a small c) who witness what is happening in Palestine and support the plight of these people in a purely empathetic way including myself and a fair few in these threads this doesnt make any of us practice AS.

i would also add probably people who are racist and use AS haven't got the empathy to care about anyone but themselves.

[TepidT2O]

Not too rake over the coals but that statement of yours is quite inflamatory, I have not got the figures but there are thousands (conservative estimate with a small c) who witness what is happening in Palestine and support the plight of these people in a purely empathetic way including myself and a fair few in these threads this doesnt make any of us practice AS.

i would also add probably people who are racist and use AS haven't got the empathy to care about anyone but themselves.

I quite agree.

But then, at ‘pro Palestine’ rallies there are many who stick nazi flags next to stars of David’s.

There are pro Palestine stalls on my high street that send money directly to terrorist organisations



So, whilst good people such as yourself get the difference, so many others don’t. And frankly it stinks because it’s not that hard is it?


I mean, if any sane person saw this they’d be disgusted wouldn’t they

[zero zero]

Not too rake over the coals but that statement of yours is quite inflamatory, I have not got the figures but there are thousands (conservative estimate with a small c) who witness what is happening in Palestine and support the plight of these people in a purely empathetic way including myself and a fair few in these threads this doesnt make any of us practice AS.

You wrote an anti-Semitic post the other day.

[24/7]

................aaaaaaaaand breathe...............