Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Alan_X]

In a hugely unsurprising piece of news, Chukka Umunna has joined the LibDems.

Wollaston and Heidi Allen also expected to join and Phillip Lee may be jumping from the Tories as well

Makes sense.

[Mutton Geoff]

Rumours and tittle tattle covers at least 80% of the brickbats thrown at Corbyn in his first year as leader, you know like photo shopped picture  of Corbyn and a war veteran at least i assume you were happy with them, with the daily fail, express  most probably the spectator and twitter used for sources,i am only surprised he never got accused of eating a hamster.

One mans rumour is another man's ammunition depending on your initial targets

[TepidT2O]

Rumours and tittle tattle covers at least 80% of the brickbats thrown at Corbyn in his first year as leader, you know like photo shopped picture  of Corbyn and a war veteran at least i assume you were happy with them, with the daily fail, express  most probably the spectator and twitter used for sources,i am only surprised he never got accused of eating a hamster.

One mans rumour is another man's ammunition depending on your initial targets

I’ve always found this criticism of the source of bad news as odd.

It happens a lot.

But the only thing that matters is whether it is true or not.

Now, strip away the sensationalised headlines, and the vats majority of what has been released about Corbyn and the corrupt processes in the Labour Party has been true.

[Mutton Geoff]

In which case you have to ask yourself:  "What is the point of Jeremy Corbyn?"

The question being discussed was whether Corbyn was the first to say that Article 50 should be invoked. The answer to that is yes.

Did he have the power to actually do it? You say no, but the real answer is no one person has the power to do it as we don't have a President with executive powers.

The power rested with Parliament and as part of the Remain campaign (in theory), leader of a pro-EU party with a pro-Eu membership and leader of the opposition, he was in a position to build cross-party agreement for a considered approach to the process.

Instead he gave everything away like a teenager suffering from premature ejaculation or someone with Tourettes.  He's the Ed Woodward of British politics.

Ok So he didnt have the power so why all the fuss about who said what,

 as for your consistent biased view of the times and a need to rewrite history to fit your agenda, was he the leader of a 100% pro europe party, did all the members vote to remain, did all the PLP like 100% of them put themselves on the remain platform and vote remain, see i think your hatred has governed your thinking and you are searching for the answers you crave for whether realistic or not.  If the country was divided more or less down the middle what gives you this convenient theory that all 100% labour members and 100% MP's voted for remain had they all voted remain added to the Libdems, SNP, Greens, then the outcome would have been staying in anyway.

I dont even like Corbyn anymore but the lynch party mentality in here is just so comedic along with the manic desperation to get rid of him and all his shadow cabinet it's such wonderful black humour.

Given we have both left the party well maybe not you but quite frankly i am just observing the sad pantomime now. With the tories in power for another generation.

I am reminded of a post FS made when he was elected his first thoughts were the poor bastard the establishment wont let him succeed and they will do anything to achieve that aim. Seems he was spot on but it was even worse than FS predicted.

[ShakaHislop]

In a hugely unsurprising piece of news, Chukka Umunna has joined the LibDems.

Wollaston and Heidi Allen also expected to join and Phillip Lee may be jumping from the Tories as well

Former Labour and Change UK MP Chuka Umunna has joined the Lib Dems.

The Streatham MP told the Times he had been "wrong" to think "millions of politically homeless people... wanted a new option on the ballot paper".

"I also think I vastly underestimated the importance of having an infrastructure and existing relationships with voters," he added.

He was one of six Change UK MPs to quit last week, after it gained only 3.4% of the vote in the European elections.

The pro-EU Lib Dems saw a surge in support in the same elections, coming second after the Brexit Party.

Former shadow business secretary Mr Umunna told the Times that the Lib Dems' success shows the potential for the party to be the "spearhead" of a "new progressive movement in this country".

"I think we've got to grab the chance to fundamentally change the system forever now."

He previously criticised the Lib Dems for "enabling Tory austerity" while in coalition with them and acknowledged that not everyone in the party would welcome his arrival.

He also ruled out standing for Lib Dem leader and did not want to take sides between the two contenders to replace Sir Vince Cable, Jo Swinson and Ed Davey.

Welcoming him, Sir Vince Cable said: "Chuka and I have worked together effectively for many months, campaigning for a People's Vote and to stop Brexit.

"I know that he will be a great asset to our party not just on Brexit, but in fighting for the liberal and social democratic values that we share."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631116

I'd be OK with the other CHUKers, both former and current following in his footsteps providing they show the same humility he has in his comments in the Times, and also share the lack of intention to wade into the leadership contest like billy big bollocks.

[Alan_X]

Rumours and tittle tattle covers at least 80% of the brickbats thrown at Corbyn in his first year as leader, you know like photo shopped picture  of Corbyn and a war veteran at least i assume you were happy with them, with the daily fail, express  most probably the spectator and twitter used for sources,i am only surprised he never got accused of eating a hamster.

One mans rumour is another man's ammunition depending on your initial targets

There's a constant theme in your posts that says anyone who dislikes Corbyn must be reading the Daily Mail or the Express. It's the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

"Any true Labour supporter would back Corbyn.."
"I'm a Labour supporter but I don't like Corbyn..."
"Then you can't be a true Labour supporter... you must get your views from the Daily Mail..."

My main source for forming an opinion about Corbyn were his pieces for the Morning Star and transcripts or recordings of the things he says. 

[Circa1892]

Chuka joining the Lib Dems.

The few people Owen Jones hasn’t blocked must surely be witnesssing one of speakers all time great meltdowns!

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Chuka joining the Lib Dems.

The few people Owen Jones hasn’t blocked must surely be witnesssing one of speakers all time great meltdowns!

well little owen has been kicking off on the nspcc and mumsnet so far this week so I will be impressed if he has the energy for this one!

[Alan_X]

Ok So he didnt have the power so why all the fuss about who said what,

 as for your consistent biased view of the times and a need to rewrite history to fit your agenda, was he the leader of a 100% pro europe party, did all the members vote to remain, did all the PLP like 100% of them put themselves on the remain platform and vote remain, see i think your hatred has governed your thinking and you are searching for the answers you crave for whether realistic or not.  If the country was divided more or less down the middle what gives you this convenient theory that all 100% labour members and 100% MP's voted for remain had they all voted remain added to the Libdems, SNP, Greens, then the outcome would have been staying in anyway.

I dont even like Corbyn anymore but the lynch party mentality in here is just so comedic along with the manic desperation to get rid of him and all his shadow cabinet it's such wonderful black humour.

Given we have both left the party well maybe not you but quite frankly i am just observing the sad pantomime now. With the tories in power for another generation.

I am reminded of a post FS made when he was elected his first thoughts were the poor bastard the establishment wont let him succeed and they will do anything to achieve that aim. Seems he was spot on but it was even worse than FS predicted.

We could play spot the logical fallacy bingo with your posts mate. We're on to the Straw Man now.

Labour was a pro-European party. That is not invalidated because a minority of its MPs and members were Europsceptics. I'm not even sure of the point you are trying to make.

As for Leo's posts on that subject. I remember them and I remember pointing out that Corbyn didn't need any help from anywhere to fuck things up.

The irony is that the party of the 'establishment' are fucking things up and are as weak as they have ever been but Corbyn is so useless he can't take advantage of it.

[Zeb]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48631116

I'd be OK with the other CHUKers, both former and current following in his footsteps providing they show the same humility he has in his comments in the Times, and also share the lack of intention to wade into the leadership contest like billy big bollocks.

Wading into your leadership contest, and a ton of love bombing, was the main plank of Manchester's Lib Dems recruitment efforts this past month or so.

Stephen Bush on the political calculation behind it, and some of the other rumoured movers to the Lib Dems. New Statesman

It also gives [the Lib Dems] a way back in Streatham, a constituency they made a strong challenge in 2010, were whomped in 2015 and 2017 but won in the European elections (they have also made forward strides in local council by-elections in the seat).

The benefits of incumbency, and if they are lucky in the Labour candidate, gives them a path to make the seat at least competitive again and perhaps even to win it off Labour in the right national environment.

Umunna is not the biggest prize from a constituency perspective – Heidi Allen, who is also believed to be open to joining and privately argued for an alliance between the Liberal Democrats and her short-lived party Change UK, and Sarah Wollaston, in Totnes, are both more winnable – but his political proximity to both Allen and Wollaston, and his longstanding friendship with Luciana Berger, whose Liverpool Wavertree seat is well outside the Liberal Democrats’ grasp but who many Conservatives in the so-called “Bagel Belt” of north London constituencies where the British Jewish community is well-concentrated think could revive Liberal Democrat fortunes there, will increase the hope within the Liberal Democrats that they can tempt over those four as well in time. Allen and Wollaston in particular are believed likely to follow in Liberal Democrat circles.

Whether voters will coalesce around the Lib Dems though, isn't it? Labour seem to be already beginning to try to re-secure the Green vote for a general election.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Ok So he didnt have the power so why all the fuss about who said what,

OMG.

[Mutton Geoff]

We could play spot the logical fallacy bingo with your posts mate. We're on to the Straw Man now.

Labour was a pro-European party. That is not invalidated because a minority of its MPs and members were Europsceptics. I'm not even sure of the point you are trying to make.

As for Leo's posts on that subject. I remember them and I remember pointing out that Corbyn didn't need any help from anywhere to fuck things up.

The irony is that the party of the 'establishment' are fucking things up and are as weak as they have ever been but Corbyn is so useless he can't take advantage of it.

i simply find your hatred of the man and your need to put down anyone who might risk defending him in here so sad .
 
When the tories stay in power for the next generation ask yourself how many in the labour party need to take ownership for that happening, from all the self serving MP's who care more for themselves than the party, and i include all sides of this party certainly the leadership and all the rest. 

For the members and i include myself who allowed momentum to take over part of the party and did nothing to try to stop it, for the absolutely rubbish campaigns by Andy and the others that more or less opened the door and ushered Corbyn in.

Should Corbyn go which for the sake of the party he needs to do now, then who the hell is in this party and would attract all sides of the party.

Personally i seriously would like to see the party to split because i feel the divisions within the party now and the hatred between voters and the ongoing civil war with the members are like a massive crevice increasing in size everyday and in my opinion will never be repaired.

I certainly find i have nothing in common with the extreme people from both sides in the party anymore which is one of the reason i quit the party.

[Alan_X]

When the tories stay in power for the next generation ask yourself how many in the labour party need to take ownership for that happening...

I have asked myself that and I think I know the answer. It's the people who elected a useless and incompetent leader who was complicit in the right-wing wet-dream of Brexit.

But maybe you're right and it's everyone else in the party apart from the useless and unpopular Brexiteer and his mates...

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The irony being that we will have to blame the same party & the same fools within that party which gave us decades of Thatcher.


When was the last socialist nirvana in the UK again ?

[Robinred]

I have asked myself that and I think I know the answer. It's the people who elected a useless and incompetent leader who was complicit in the right-wing wet-dream of Brexit.

But maybe you're right and it's everyone else in the party apart from the useless and unpopular Brexiteer and his mates...

In the meantime, the Tories, as ever, spot an opportunity to promote a despicable but charismatic populist demagogue as their leader, and pile in.

It was ever thus.

[Mutton Geoff]

I have asked myself that and I think I know the answer. It's the people who elected a useless and incompetent leader who was complicit in the right-wing wet-dream of Brexit.

But maybe you're right and it's everyone else in the party apart from the useless and unpopular Brexiteer and his mates...

you either need  new glasses or your beyond help i included  Corbyn more than once as a reason for the party being totally fucked ! i am also to blame and by equal measures so are you for this mess everyone is culpable including just for your benefit Corbyn and the idiots that were so bloody useless in the first election that he romped home! try and spin that if you can 

[PatriotScouser]

Difference between chuka Umunna and Rory Stewart?? None. Both are different cheeks from the same arsehole. So those people purporting to gratify in the bullshit that Rory Stewart spoke with can do one. Both are enemies of a Labour government. I detest Corbyn to my core but I'd fucking rather have a Labour PM in Corbyn than those two c***s in charge.

[Zeb]

Difference between chuka Umunna and Rory Stewart?? None. Both are different cheeks from the same arsehole. So those people purporting to gratify in the bullshit that Rory Stewart spoke with can do one. Both are enemies of a Labour government. I detest Corbyn to my core but I'd fucking rather have a Labour PM in Corbyn than those two c***s in charge.

Think there are similarities, not least that they're both trying to appeal to a certain group of voters, and agree that that's going to always be opposed to the current Labour party which would much rather appeal to a different group of voters altogether and try to force everyone else into some form of moral/tribal choice under first past the post. At the same time, can't help but see the pair of them as responding to the polarisation in Labour and the Conservatives which has led to where we're at with both parties struggling to secure enough votes to form a government in their own right.

[oldfordie]

Difference between chuka Umunna and Rory Stewart?? None. Both are different cheeks from the same arsehole. So those people purporting to gratify in the bullshit that Rory Stewart spoke with can do one. Both are enemies of a Labour government. I detest Corbyn to my core but I'd fucking rather have a Labour PM in Corbyn than those two c***s in charge.

So what have Umunna + Stewart got in common to argue they are just different cheeks from the same arsehole. it can't be opposing a no deal surely?
I think Umunna felt the same as millions of other ex Labour supporters. they didn't move away from Labour values. the Labour party leadership moved away from Labour values.

[Zeb]

So what have Umunna + Stewart got in common to argue they are just different cheeks from the same arsehole. it can't be opposing a no deal surely?
I think Umunna felt the same as millions of other ex Labour supporters. they didn't move away from Labour values. the Labour party leadership moved away from Labour values.

I can see it in terms of where both are pitching to in their language and approach. Neither of them are going for the (current) tribal vote of Labour or Tories. Same way one could argue that Stringer/Hoey/Frottage are trying to appeal to a set of voters at their end of that spectrum. Different but hitting very similar themes and messages to the point where you see the similarities more than the differences right now.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Difference between chuka Umunna and Rory Stewart?? None. Both are different cheeks from the same arsehole. So those people purporting to gratify in the bullshit that Rory Stewart spoke with can do one. Both are enemies of a Labour government. I detest Corbyn to my core but I'd fucking rather have a Labour PM in Corbyn than those two c***s in charge.

I feel the sudden need to post my customary reminder that to form a government, the Labour Party is going to need to attract lots of people who formerly voted Liberal Democrat and even Conservative.

The people Stewart and Umunna are trying to speak to/for are some of the people that must be convinced to vote Labour at some point.

[Alan_X]

you either need  new glasses or your beyond help i included  Corbyn more than once as a reason for the party being totally fucked ! i am also to blame and by equal measures so are you for this mess everyone is culpable including just for your benefit Corbyn and the idiots that were so bloody useless in the first election that he romped home! try and spin that if you can 

Sorry, but no. The first time he was elected as leader you could blame Miliband and those that lost the election. But after the referendum there was a vote of no confidence because of his overt Euro-scepticism and general shitness. He was re-elected and everyone who voted for him then, despite the evidence, is in the firing line for me. 

If you’re referring to the four other candidates in the leadership election, they weren’t ‘useless’. Neither was Owen Smith second time around. Corbyn is another example of a populist figure being selected because they appeal to something rebellious and a desire to kick over the established order. 

I understand that motivation but it doesn’t excuse the lack of due diligence by those that voted for him. Democracy isn’t a perfect system but it’s probably the best we have. It does depend on people taking time to look at who they are voting for.

Your main beef with me seems to be that I wasn’t credulous in the first place. You say you’ve come to realise what a useless prick he is over time. I make no apologies for having a good look at the Emperor and seeing he had no clothes from the start.

[Alan_X]

Difference between chuka Umunna and Rory Stewart?? None. Both are different cheeks from the same arsehole. So those people purporting to gratify in the bullshit that Rory Stewart spoke with can do one. Both are enemies of a Labour government. I detest Corbyn to my core but I'd fucking rather have a Labour PM in Corbyn than those two c***s in charge.

The difference between Corbyn and Johnson? None. Both are different cheeks from the same Eurosceptic arsehole. Both are happy to fuck over ordinary British voters to further their own political ambitions.

[Alan_X]

I feel the sudden need to post my customary reminder that to form a government, the Labour Party is going to need to attract lots of people who formerly voted Liberal Democrat and even Conservative.

The people Stewart and Umunna are trying to speak to/for are some of the people that must be convinced to vote Labour at some point.

Remember the claims that Corbyn would galvanise millions of voters who never usually voted and would all flock to Jeremy’s message. They did turn out in 2016 and voted for Brexit. Well done Jeremy and Nigel.

I’ve never subscribed to the idea that we are all better off when the major parties move to the extremes - give the people a ‘real choice’ is the way it’s usually said. The Overton window doesn’t move in that situation, it’s just that the parties move away from the centre ground where most voters live. You end up with political division and either flip-flopping as parties change at each election or political paralysis.

It’s a bizarre world where people get angry that one potential leader of a party that historically is likely to be in power more often than Labour is moderate and not an absolute c*nt.

I don’t want the Tories in power but if or when they are I’d prefer them not to be led by a Thatcherite, Brexit nutter. And I’d rather Labour were led by a genuinely electable leader with a balance if policies that could create a two or three term left wing government.

[Mutton Geoff]

other than Rory wants to leave and chuka wants to remain yeah they are the same , other than chuka fails often to ge this message across and Rory seems very good at that they are the same, other than one is on his third party in the last three months and Rory is a committed Tory they are the same.

The one thing they have in common is the media like them oh and they are both men.

[Libertine]

Good to see Chuka eventually coming around to the right decision and joining the Lib Dems. Hopefully most of the other independent/change people will follow.

Never easy setting up a new party in the FPTP system, but trying to form one that's almost identical to an existing and well established party was just pointless.

[Zeb]

other than Rory wants to leave and chuka wants to remain yeah they are the same , other than chuka fails often to ge this message across and Rory seems very good at that they are the same, other than one is on his third party in the last three months and Rory is a committed Tory they are the same.

The one thing they have in common is the media like them oh and they are both men.

Stewart was a Labour member before joining the Tories in 2009. The similarities come because they're appealing to the same group of voters but from different sides of left/right. It's the same group of voters Cameron and Clegg both chased after. Johnson too, to some extent, when he ran for Mayor of London. Graduates, socially liberal, not at all tribal about who they vote for etc. Same ones as propped up the Labour vote in 2017. It's the song not the singer.

[TepidT2O]

other than Rory wants to leave and chuka wants to remain yeah they are the same , other than chuka fails often to ge this message across and Rory seems very good at that they are the same, other than one is on his third party in the last three months and Rory is a committed Tory they are the same.

The one thing they have in common is the media like them oh and they are both men.

Your post makes me think about this idea of likability...(or do I mean personability?)

And it’s really important.  Whatever your message is, if people outside of your core support don’t like you or feel drawn to you, then your message is irrelevant.

And this leaves us with a problem.  People like Johnson, but he doesn’t really have any policies other than himself. People liked thatcher..  look at her policies. Fucking hell.

So it’s really really important. Ed Miliband is perhaps the best case.  He wasn’t able to project his persona to those outside  his core support, so his message didn’t stick. In his case he tried too hard to change what he presented and if he’d just been himself he’d have done much better.

There’s a lesson in this somewhere

[Lush is the best medicine...]

It’s a good life lesson, get out of your comfort zone every now and again

[KillieRed]

Lovely Rory Stewart, best of the turd hats voted to keep No-Deal alive. Lovely Eton Rory.

[Cpt_Reina]

Umunna is a walking joke.

Lovely Rory Stewart, best of the turd hats voted to keep No-Deal alive. Lovely Eton Rory.

Also this.

[Circa1892]

On the subject of Rory Stewart, whilst he seems all nice and genuine (for a Tory) - there’s something a little amiss about the fact he’s sticking about in this contest. He has no chance whatsoever of making the final two. Zero. For all he positions himself as the anti-Johnson, I kind of wonder if his continued candidacy is almost designed to support his fellow Elton-Balliol alumni...

[Circa1892]

Oh, and on Chuka. I find it amusing how much he gets to Jones and the rest of Corbyn fanatics.

They all spent years trying to get him out of the party and deselect him and run rallies in his constituency. Then he does leave and joins a party they hate more than any other because they actually have the progressive values they claim to have. Brilliant.

[jb2319]

You could also maybe think that comment was along the same lines as your old grannie saying if i told you to put your fingers in the fire would you?  If you did put your fingers in the fire would that be your fault or your grannies ?

It would be my fault, but my parents probably wouldn't trust grannie with looking after the country me afterwards.

[Red-Soldier]

Lovely Rory Stewart, best of the turd hats voted to keep No-Deal alive. Lovely Eton Rory.

 

[Zeb]

Oh, and on Chuka. I find it amusing how much he gets to Jones and the rest of Corbyn fanatics.

They all spent years trying to get him out of the party and deselect him and run rallies in his constituency. Then he does leave and joins a party they hate more than any other because they actually have the progressive values they claim to have. Brilliant.

I get the tribalism. It's to be expected. Part which baffles me is the complete absence of any desire to learn from it. I suppose much of it is policing the boundaries and making him 'other'. Just  seems unlikely to be a winning way forward for a party which is currently short of half the voters it had just a couple of years ago. Stewart's interesting in that respect too because his voting record is that of a Tory who brought through and continued austerity, the record of a Tory cabinet minister, but few in Labour seem to be asking why, in spite of that, he seems to be connecting outside the Tory membership - and with people who have rejected the anti-austerity leader of the Labour party.

Stewart Wood (Labour lord) has probably given it more thought than some seem to have done and had this view on it: "[Stewart is] showing humanity, warmth & humility, & it makes me realise how much our politics desperately needs those qualities."

[Mutton Geoff]

Umunna is a walking joke.

Also this.

Could be known as Chuka Party given he has chucked out two in a couple of months.

[redmark]

On the subject of Rory Stewart, whilst he seems all nice and genuine (for a Tory) - there’s something a little amiss about the fact he’s sticking about in this contest. He has no chance whatsoever of making the final two. Zero. For all he positions himself as the anti-Johnson, I kind of wonder if his continued candidacy is almost designed to support his fellow Elton-Balliol alumni...

I think it's to position himself with the party for a role in cabinet, a higher profile for any future leadership election and (less cynically) to ensure that a certain wing/tradition of the party is represented in the discussions for as long as possible. The rest are much of a muchness - rabid (far right) Brexiteers versus pragmatic (a bit right of centre right) Brexiteers. The 'wet' wing of the Tories has withered over the decades, but it still just about exists.

[oldfordie]

I can see it in terms of where both are pitching to in their language and approach. Neither of them are going for the (current) tribal vote of Labour or Tories. Same way one could argue that Stringer/Hoey/Frottage are trying to appeal to a set of voters at their end of that spectrum. Different but hitting very similar themes and messages to the point where you see the similarities more than the differences right now.

I can't remember how Stuart reacted to the vote to leave but I do remember some of Umunnas speeches in Parliament. he reacted like all Labour MPs should have reacted at the time. stood up and told the Tories what he thought of them. pointed at them and told them he would throw their lies back in their faces by the time this has ended. the last thing on Umunnas mind was wining votes. he wasn't telling Labour members to look forward to leaving the EU positively like Corbyn, he was very angry, he was doing something he believed was right, trying to stop the country from doing something he knew would be disastrous.
Am sure we can find similarities between all remain MPs+leave MPs.
Many of us have applauded Ken Clarke +Michael Heseltine for standing up and telling the truth no matter what the backlash is. it doesn't make us Tories though.
I am more concerned about the intention behind comparing Umunna to Stuart.

[filopastry]

For all the Umunna stuff, if I lived in Streatham I'd vote for him, I might not agree with them on everything but he and the LibDems are a lot closer to my politics than Milne and Murray ever will be.