Author Topic: #SHANKLY100 Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961  (Read 26326 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2005, 11:56:43 pm »
That's a great post. Not just because I think you're spot on, but because it offers some much needed sanity among all doom and gloom.

Very good example with zonal marking. People were going mad over it some months ago. Now it's forgotten. I think that sums up Benitez' approach. He addresses the right things. We suffer short term, but we learn and we mprove. We're not hiding our problems anymore.

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Offline steve bic

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2005, 12:12:42 am »
Sitting here at 12.04 totally depressed by last week cant remember one that bad for a long time & along comes Pauls article in total agreement with every word & now its a new week one i hope will give us a trip to Cardiff.
           How often do you go the match & hear those moaners giving it out,patience is the name of the game.I honestly didnt think however bad things were people would be so negative this early under Rafas reign.

Offline klshankman

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2005, 02:09:39 am »
Thanks Paul
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 02:23:40 am by Bob Kurac »

Offline onnoem

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2005, 03:12:32 am »
Very well written, Paul, as usual.

I think many of our supporters are not "Realistic" enough. Rafa is the best manager in the world we could've got. We should count ourselves very lucky to have recruited him when we needed a change in Manager. If the people in charge in Valencia have a little bit of sensible brain cells left, we would never have the chance. Rafa certainly didn't let us down. Everything he said and did so far have been perfectly suited to the class of Liverpool. I would be ashamed of how Wenger and Fergie behaved if I am a supporter of their teams. Yes, I am quite disappointed with resuts we are getting at the league. But how many of the defeats were due to bad lucks? In my opinion, we only deserved to lose 2 matches, Boro and Saints, based on performances of the day. The good things which Rafa have done during his short spell here included:

- Change the style of play completely. Ask yourself, how many games did you enjoy watching compared with the past few seasons?  I felt embarassed with most of the games played under GH because we couldn't string 3 passes together.

- Clear almost all of the dead woods. Some people do not understand the complexity involved in the dealing of players. It's easy to say "Sell this useless shit", but who want him and at what price. No one would touch some of our players because of their fat contracts.

- Attracted some high calibra players to join us. Alonso and Morientis would never join us if someone else is in charge. Yes some of his new recruits haven't shown their best yet but they didn't really cost us a lot right? And I'm confident that most of them will prove to be useful given mor experiences in the Premiership. Also, I reckon Rafa is a factor why SG made a U-turn at the last minute.


For those who are not happy with Rafa, ask yourself a question. Who would you like to be our manager (anyone available)? How well would they have done given our limited resources? All I don't like about Rafa is his bad luck with injuries and referees. ;D




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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2005, 09:44:33 am »
Great read that, Paul, and I agree that it's ridiculous that some are writing Rafa off already.

I think that in some ways this business of having to finish in the top four is a curse. Wouldn't it be nice if Rafa could have a transitional season where it doesn't matter whether you finish fourth, fifth or sixth?

Offline jfpower

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2005, 09:51:36 am »
Good article and a good positive thread.

It is good to see that most people realise that building a successful team doesn't happen overnight-  and we will have to take the good with the bad at the moment. However, I like most people believe that Rafa can bring the good days back to Anfield (and that we will get into the Champs league this year)

Offline notyouraverage

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2005, 10:01:46 am »
once again great read. i just wish u can post these up quicker after bad games to stop all the knee-jerk posts

Offline ewok-red

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2005, 10:53:39 am »
1. Liverpool fans grew to become famed for their patience.
2. Is it me, or are fans getting less and less patient by the season?
3. and the older pros blamed;
4.  after the previous two seasons of mediocrity.

Paul. great piece well written, thought provoking and considered.  I would just like to make the following observations.

1. "liverpool fans GREW to become famed for their patience". As you clearly imply this doesnt mean we were patient from the outset.  talk to a lot of older/older fans and there are countless stories of the team getrting loads of stick. i do think we have to be careful, and in my reckoning i think there has been a fair deal of revisionism and rewriting of history as far as fans are concerned.  Further, its a lot bloody easier to be patient when you are winning on a regular basis  :).

2. "Are fans getting less patient". i think our whole society has got a lot less patient - not a good thing just a reality. but lets face it these pampered pooches of ours do leave themselves wide open for it!


3. "the older pro's getting blamed" - i think they would get far less blame if they did two thing  a) look slightly bothered about winning when they are playing   b) pass a ball to a teammate.

4.  "after the last two seasons of mediocrity"  TWO????  i think we have been well below standard for a long long time.  a couple of good cup runs does not mean that we have risen above mediocrity.  and even the 'treble' season was more wrote for luck than a systematic change.  It was a great thing, but many people know we only just scraped through - and fair enough we deserved our share of luck. If you think the season before the last two were above the average you must have done what many have and lowered your expectations.

Having said that i think Rafa will do it and have no problem with either his signing or tactics yet, because i agree it will take time.
However i do have issue with players not giving it there all.  and i do not think we should stand for it.  sod the myth of patience and getting behind the time.  If they are not willing to even look like their bothered I am not willing to passively condone their disrespect for the fans or this club.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2005, 12:36:41 pm »
Cheers, Ewok. I agree with your points, and nice to see the perspective you offered.

I wasn't excusing the older pros, just saying that everyone said we should pick a team of experience, and yet it was the older (as well as younger) pros who let us down. Who is to say eleven experienced players would have done better?

Didn't experienced teams lose in the FA Cup to the likes of Brighton and Second Division Chelsea in the early 80s?

Agree the mediocrity goes back further, but 2000/01 and 2001/02 are hard to criticize, given the progress we made in terms of points/trophies.

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2005, 12:49:13 pm »
Nice article, Paul. Echoed exactly what I had in mind about the current Liverpool setup and the things happening all around, but you put it well into words. It difficult to find a calm head nowadays with the MBs and all, perhaps what you wrote can help to knock them back into reality.

Another good reason to visit RAWK often, things such as these. ;)
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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2005, 01:30:25 pm »
Another long one from Paul.  A pity though there is the need to write it.

It seems to be against the law to make excuses for managers but I'm going to break the law.

1. Getting rid of the dead wood AND going backwards
GH is accused of bringing in a lot of dead wood and people are starting to say Rafa has shipped it out to replace it with his own.  GH left us in fourth and Rafa is going to struggle to achieve that.

We have to remember that we scraped fourth at the very end of the season (was it the last game), we also had a certain Michael Owen.  Rafa has quite a few games left to get us into that fourth spot.  As for the players he has bought in, none of them has had chance to settle into a settled squad.  Nunez out for god knows how long.  Garcia being moved from right mid to auxillary striker as injury dictates.  Pellegrino, just in, thrown in at the deep end as we have to move Carragher to another slot , Alonso, hacked down as Gerrard and he were establishing a partnership etc etc.....

2. Injuries.
All big teams can blame injuries, but we are having a Tottenham like run.  This is compounded by brining in new players as they just can't settle in as the manager foresaw.  Few managers are lucky enough to being able to play their first XI, but Rafa has been struggling to field 11 of his first 18.

3. Desire to win
I think rafa is putting out teams he thinks are good enough to win, whilst maybe holding a bit back in reserve. But the recent lack of desire seems to coincide with the injury to Gerrard. Without his driving force on the pitch, players seem to struggle to find their own.

I agree with a previous poster, in that if it wasn't for the cash/ ability to attract other players, I'd settle for a top ten finish as long as the team that finished looked far better to challenge next season.  I still think we are capable of playing much much better football than we did last season.



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Offline kev78

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2005, 02:18:48 pm »
Great article Paul. People shouldn't need to be convinced that Rafa has the ability to turn things around for us, but it seems that they do. Until yesterday it never even entered my head that people would be calling time on Rafa. The reactions of some people over the weekend has been quite alarming. I accepted before the season started that Rafa needed to be given time and realised that this season could well be a mixed number of high points and low points. I won't list these here as I'm sure you can see what I mean.

The point is the problem never was going to be fixed quickly and patience is what is required.  Unfortunately some people cannot see that and after what has been a horrendous week for us they are taking the opportunity to crucify Rafa. Maybe they don't really mean all the things they say but are that infuriated at the poor run we are having and just need to 'vent their spleen' at someone. Normally that someone is the manager as that just seems to be easier.  Maybe they are running out of patience with some of his purchases. But again they should only be really judged after they have been given time to adjust to the pace of the premiership. For some this adjustment will be quicker than others. Maybe they really do believe that we need this manager, that player etc etc and genuinely believe that it can all happen at the click of a finger. I don't believe we should be going overboard in our criticism of Rafa at the moment though. I think he has shown enough good things in his short time over here so far to suggest that he can get us back to where we belong. At least give him a chance to shape things how he wants them....

The zonal marking is an excellent point as I haven't heard it mentioned on tv / radio for ages now. That in itself shows that it must be working well as people tend to always look for the negative aspects rather than look for the positive.

The less said about the game on saturday the better suffice to say I'm sure Rafa was extremely dissappointed with the effort and quality of the player's performances. I could not believe what I was watching at times and if I had posted on here saturday then maybe I would have criticised each and every player very strongly. I always think it is better to try and take a more considered approach though as other people have to read this shit as well!! I don't think I would have been calling for Rafa's head though and I appreciate that Rome indeed wasn't built in a day.....

Offline Bootle Buck

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2005, 04:51:12 pm »
A very well written peice Paul but you can barely compare the two situations. Shankly took over a second division club that had no real winning history. He built the club with lower league players that he felt fitted his ideals. He didn't face the expectation a current manager would, but he also didn't have a budget or squad of players to build on. Rafa has come to a club that was dominant in European football over 15 years. A proud history that still keeps the club among the elite today. However, a club that has failed to win the major honours of the Campionship and European Cup[(CL) for over a decade. Rafa has money(somewhat), a succesful track record and the ability to bring in players from all corners of the globe. Shanks had basically the lower leagues and Scotland to trawl through for a potential big fish.

However, the big difference between the two is the fact that we live in a world of instant gratification and the Liverpool fans grow more and more impatient every year. Shanks won the fans over by being one of them. He had the same enthusiam, passion and pride but he had a patient audience. Rafa has had to take one hat off as a succesful manager of a winning Spanish side to wear another of a Succesful relic that is longing to be restored, I think he is up to the job but I am not sure his adoring fans will be.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2005, 05:02:29 pm »
A very well written peice Paul but you can barely compare the two situations. Shankly took over a second division club that had no real winning history. He built the club with lower league players that he felt fitted his ideals. He didn't face the expectation a current manager would, but he also didn't have a budget or squad of players to build on.


I was only comparing the situations in a semi-tongue-in-cheek fashion. You can compare certain elements, but of course not all elements. Different eras, and all that. You understand that, I can tell.

However, the club had won the league in 1947 - 12 years before Shanks arrived. It was 14 years in Benitez's case.

We were a sleeping giant then, with massive support and the ability to pay fees other teams in that division couldn't. Shankly spent fairly handsomely for the time; certainly he had a spending power more comparable to the top teams than we now have to Chelsea.

But the only point I was making was that if Shanks was in charge today, people would be calling for his head if he took three seasons to get us promoted. Again, you acknowledge the impatience of modern fans...

Offline nokem

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2005, 06:04:42 pm »
Fantastic piece, Paul. Thanks for a clear-headed perspective to put some order on my own troubled thoughts.

In addition to the factors you mention, Rafa couldn't have been expected to encounter the PremPlus curse, whereby his players play like woodland mammals and get spanked around the park every time I can't get to a game and shell out £6 to watch it at home. I take full responsibility for the current crisis :(

Offline Bissboy

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2005, 06:05:34 pm »
"the no-Spanish, no-foreign, only-English, only-Scouse, Houllier-better-than-Rafa, we-have-no-heart-or-passion, club-is-not-the-way-it-used-to-be, Championship-Manager, Morgan-in Moores-out, no OOT's"

Is it just me or is this kind of thing levelled at anyone with the audacity to challenge some of Mr Benitez's decisions or even claim dissatisfaction at the teams recent poor form? Let's face it there are some things that can be explained away by muttering "transitional season" and others that can't chieflly Rafa's seeming inability  motivate the squad after two big defeats (United and Chelsea) and now two inexcusable ones against much weaker opposition. O.k. massive injury problems and some glaring blunders have taken their toll but we were anemic at best against united and surrendered very tamely to southampton. Surely Rafa is ultimately responsible for this.
I wont criticize the majority of his signings as they should be given time to adapt etc. However, if we all agree that it takes time for foreign players to acclimatise to the game over here, where is the wisdom in playing pellegrino? If he takes the best part of a season before we see the best of him we can expect the majority of his liverpool playing career to be well below what he is capable of (as he cant have that much longer left in him). In this case we would then have to draft in Carragher or another CB and have to allow him time to forge a partnership with Sami.
Also the decision to drop Traore for the game at the weekend was, I feel, the wrong one, He has performed brilliantly this season and dropping him could be interpreted as a lack of confidence in him by Benitez. It will be interesting to see if Pelle suffers the same fate.
These are things i feel Benitez could be held personally accountable for and things i feel he is personally responsible for. Im not calling for his head. Im aware of his achievements and he has impressed me since taking the reigns but the "semi -tongue-in-cheek" crap that is thrown around anytime someone criticizes him is just as unfair and reactionary as calling for his head.
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Offline Helsinki Red

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2005, 06:20:55 pm »
Excellent post!

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2005, 06:41:39 pm »
"the no-Spanish, no-foreign, only-English, only-Scouse, Houllier-better-than-Rafa, we-have-no-heart-or-passion, club-is-not-the-way-it-used-to-be, Championship-Manager, Morgan-in Moores-out, no OOT's"

Is it just me or is this kind of thing levelled at anyone with the audacity to challenge some of Mr Benitez's decisions or even claim dissatisfaction at the teams recent poor form? Let's face it there are some things that can be explained away by muttering "transitional season" and others that can't chieflly Rafa's seeming inability  motivate the squad after two big defeats (United and Chelsea) and now two inexcusable ones against much weaker opposition. O.k. massive injury problems and some glaring blunders have taken their toll but we were anemic at best against united and surrendered very tamely to southampton. Surely Rafa is ultimately responsible for this.
I wont criticize the majority of his signings as they should be given time to adapt etc. However, if we all agree that it takes time for foreign players to acclimatise to the game over here, where is the wisdom in playing pellegrino? If he takes the best part of a season before we see the best of him we can expect the majority of his liverpool playing career to be well below what he is capable of (as he cant have that much longer left in him). In this case we would then have to draft in Carragher or another CB and have to allow him time to forge a partnership with Sami.
Also the decision to drop Traore for the game at the weekend was, I feel, the wrong one, He has performed brilliantly this season and dropping him could be interpreted as a lack of confidence in him by Benitez. It will be interesting to see if Pelle suffers the same fate.
These are things i feel Benitez could be held personally accountable for and things i feel he is personally responsible for. Im not calling for his head. Im aware of his achievements and he has impressed me since taking the reigns but the "semi -tongue-in-cheek" crap that is thrown around anytime someone criticizes him is just as unfair and reactionary as calling for his head.

as the author of that particular piece of "semi-tongue-in-cheek crap," perhaps i should respond...

if you're not calling for his head, the comment was not directed at you.  simple as.

i don't agree with every decision Rafa has made, for example, i'm not confident when we try to play 4-4-2 with Morientes and Baros alongside each other, because so many other teams are crowding midfield with five players against us, and with Alonso out, Gerarrd "off-form" or "unfit," and Hamann looking increasingly immobile, and yes, the fact that we have no wide midfield players, only Spanish pansies, we always struggle to keep the ball when we play 4-4-2.  (the Spanish pansies bit was sarcasm, for clarity's sake...)

but even though i don't agree with the way we have lined up in recent matches, that hasn't meant that i blame Rafa for our poor performances, am calling for his head, or feel the need to try to show everyone that i have sussed out the solutions to all our problems.

None of the over-the-top criticisms that i used in the quote you cited are legitimate complaints about our season; rather, they are cheap, facile pseudo-solutions which ignore deeper problems, and also excuse the poster from the responsibility of a supporter, which in this case is to give Rafa and the players some time to sort out their systems of play, tactics, and personal relationships.

i don't agree that Rafa is ultimately responsible for the United, Burnley and Southampton disasters; i don't think there is an ultimate reason, but rather a composite of factors, which as i mentioned above, Rafa played his unfortunate part.

which i believe he has acknowledged publicly...

your post contains a series of things for which you feel Rafa should be held responsible.  Each of these points contains reasons for their inclusion in your post.

Can you really not see that the quote you cite in no way was directed at posts such as the one you yourself wrote?

differences of opinion are inevitable.

but those persons against whom the quote was aimed are not interested in any sort of discussion about the team; rather, the purpose is to hold forth as a sort of revivalist preacher, to bring the Word to the thread and find a victim to blame...

so, i suppose, to answer the initial question you posed, yes, it is just you.  "that kind of thing" was not leveled at anyone who challenges Rafa's decisions or is dis-satisfied with our recent run of form.

i challenge his decisions, and i'm a wee bit put-off by our recent run of form.

but i don't have nice, gift-wrapped solutions, either...

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Offline Bissboy

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2005, 08:13:24 pm »
I used the qoute as an example of an attitude I feel exists on the forum at times. I have seen fairly  moderate criticism  leapt upon and lampooned with sarcastic "sack the manager" responses several times and like i said in the post it's just as unwarranted. You don't seem like an exponent of that kind of thing but  surely you can see how annoying it could be when used as a blanket pseudo defence of any criticism. So sorry if i quoted you unfairly.

 don't agree that Rafa is ultimately responsible for the United, Burnley and Southampton disasters; i don't think there is an ultimate reason, but rather a composite of factors, which as i mentioned above, Rafa played his unfortunate part.

Sorry, but doesn't the buck stop with the manger? Im not saying he's solely to blame and I acknowledge the fact that his players let him down but the fact is, we have fallen behind three games in sucession now and Rafa has failed either through tactical or motivational means to influence the outcomes of those games.  I feel that is a valid and fair area that he can be criticised on.
     
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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2005, 09:13:54 pm »
No way would a clothed capped geordie called Bob be appointed manager either....and who the hell thought that a player would be appointed to manager the team in the 80's  , jeez he only won one  double , load of rubbish .... anyway the stress got to him within a few years .....  two LFC managers have had heart attacks in the last 10 years ....i for one feel that rafa, the way he conducts himself at interviews, and in general management, from my remote perspective feel right, he s had a bad week,

and I would ask the players if they have done their jobs as well, no things that worked for him in getting us to the C cup semis didnt come off at burnley, players didnt perform, and some fans like to pick on the faces they dont like and forget their favourites can also have off days , you made some good points in your post, but ciut out the advertising eh?  ;)

its only the internet/TV  thats to blame for the fickle fans, i remember those old guys leaving early even in the glory days of the 60"s  todays lifestyle is "fast'food" so is business, a long-term plan is 3 years these days! ...but arent we LIVERPOOL, and therefore we shouldnt let that stuff get to us, and i for one dont like to see such negative reactions against a giy, with real ability in management, who has dedicated himself to do a good progressive job, being slated; he hasnt had much luck lately, dont turn that into a negative wave, good luck Rafa... you deserve a fair chance, and to be even discussing your managerial position is no more than ridiculous, move on to who we are going to beat in the CL final  ;)
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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2005, 09:35:48 pm »
Quote

i don't agree that Rafa is ultimately responsible for the United, Burnley and Southampton disasters; i don't think there is an ultimate reason, but rather a composite of factors, which as i mentioned above, Rafa played his unfortunate part.

Sorry, but doesn't the buck stop with the manger? Im not saying he's solely to blame and I acknowledge the fact that his players let him down but the fact is, we have fallen behind three games in sucession now and Rafa has failed either through tactical or motivational means to influence the outcomes of those games.  I feel that is a valid and fair area that he can be criticised on.


yes, he can, and should, be criticised for this.  you raise a fair point.

my response would be something along the lines of this (and i am defending him here, although i'm trying to avoid "reasoning" of the knee-jerk variety...)

i think Rafa did a wonderful job motivating the players for matches such as Arsenal and Olympiacos, when he had more of his first-choice players to choose from.  and i also think that, by and large, he was not credited for this; rather, the supporters seemed to give the players the lion's share of the credit for motivating themselves for these matches.

motivation is very much an emotional, flighty sort of thing.  all too often, it's presented as a sort of cut-and-dried, "they should be motivated" entity.  but i don't think that's accurate at all, individual players can lose their motivation from things that have absolutely nothing to do with events on the football pitch, for example. 

so, while Rafa's motivational skills should be open to criticism for the previous three matches, in which we all agree that the team played poorly, and looked very un-motivated, perhaps it's a bit of a rush to judgement to hold his motivational abilities as less than acceptable when judging events over an eight-day period.

if we had never produced passionate, powerful, well-organised performances while Rafa was manager, over seven-odd months, then criticising his motivational ability in general would be more valid.

but we have done, in the two matches mentioned above, or Fulham, coming back from 2-0 down, for example.

so perhaps i leave it at this: we have played very poorly in the last three matches, and not looked well-motivated.  but that is only over an eight-day period.  the buck does stop with the manager eventually, as you point out, but i would argue that, over short periods like the eight-day one we are debating, there are many other factors that might cause unmotivated performances, besides Rafa lacking that particular talent.

how about this?  although you have moved to the point of the buck stopping with the manager, i'm not there yet, i'm still blaming things like injuries, new players struggling with the British game, and frankly the players themselves.

While it's fair to argue that Rafa is ultimately responsible, I think an equally valid argument could be made that the players should not need motivating for a match like United, for example.




     
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Offline HIRA

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2005, 11:07:20 am »
Great, positive article.  :)
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Offline ewok-red

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2005, 11:52:04 am »
Cheers, Ewok. I agree with your points, and nice to see the perspective you offered.

Agree the mediocrity goes back further, but 2000/01 and 2001/02 are hard to criticize, given the progress we made in terms of points/trophies.


Oh i dont know about it being 'hard to criticize' - there is at least 40,000 people who think they can do better each week, and thats just in the ground!!!

However, i do think your comment highlights the very thing we have to address.  00/01 and 01/02 were not good season in terms of progress. I agree with the points / trophies thing but...  We were, as nearly all those who watched week in week out who i have spoken to would concur, running on a very large ammount of good luck. 

I know it sounds like a cheap shot and denail of achievement put i think if we took the myth of those seasons out of the equation we would get a better  measure of where we are.  and we would have to start looking a lot further back for our benchmarks.
But for that lrun of luck we are a long way adrift.

In a sense I think we have also swopped some players who gave their all but were ineffective (tommo, mcateer............) for a whole lot who really dont look bothered.

I still think they need a fuckin dose of reality. if they play shit lets boo them off.  those who have worked hard in a game know it.  if they cant be arsed why should we.  i dont want them to entertain me. just to do their job.
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Offline PauLFC_1977

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2005, 12:57:26 pm »
Great article - very enjoyable read and a bit of much-needed perspective
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2005, 01:08:20 pm »
However, i do think your comment highlights the very thing we have to address.  00/01 and 01/02 were not good season in terms of progress. I agree with the points / trophies thing but...  We were, as nearly all those who watched week in week out who i have spoken to would concur, running on a very large ammount of good luck. 


There was luck, but you need that.

I enjoyed the football in 2000/01, but even though we got 80 points in 01/02, I felt our football was getting more and more predictable; its effectiveness was on borrowed time, and I said it back then, and was proven right. It was a short-term effectiveness that would be easy for the opposition to suss out.

Offline mercury

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #65 on: January 26, 2005, 05:54:11 am »
Bravos, Tom.  This and the other article by Rushian/CKI  Benitez are exactly what is needed after the gruelling few days.  I hate the net and the media after a loss (though in this case a string of losses  :'().  The vitirol is impossible.

A little perspective and patience with the manager is called for.

Offline Bissboy

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #66 on: January 26, 2005, 07:56:56 pm »
Turkish: Sorry about the late reply, ive been too sick to move lately.

I didn't mean to criticise Rafa's motivational skills altogether, and i of course acknowledge some of the great work he's done in this area for some of the games this season (with arsenal i put it down to his tactical nous though). When a player is playing badly you can look at his game nad realise where he's going wrong or what areas he needs to improve in to perform better, I feel this applies to managers. Ie: a manager can have a "great game" by bringing on a sub, team talk, etc or have a poor game similarly. I dont believe he has become a bad manager overnight but his own performances over the last few games haven't been great and if im not mistaken the man has acknowledged this himself. If you can have a go at a midfielder for not imposing himself on a game , surely you can have a go at the manager for the same.

motivation is very much an emotional, flighty sort of thing.  all too often, it's presented as a sort of cut-and-dried, "they should be motivated" entity.  but i don't think that's accurate at all, individual players can lose their motivation from things that have absolutely nothing to do with events on the football pitch, for example.

The above is a very fair point however it easy to forget that the players have lives off the pitch. However "individual players" are one thing when the team is so jaded looking, once again i feel it falls on the manager. 

Regardless, you talked about a very difficult 8 day period we've all endured. I agree it's an easy time to have a bit of a go. Thank fuck it's over now and Rafa can show us the qualities  we know he possesses and haul  us into the CL.
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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2005, 08:24:11 pm »
Turkish: Sorry about the late reply, ive been too sick to move lately.

no worries, hope you're feeling better.  yesterday's result help at all?  ;)

Quote
However "individual players" are one thing when the team is so jaded looking, once again i feel it falls on the manager. 

the manager as responsible for the collective; yep, that's how it's supposed to work.  touche...

Quote
Regardless, you talked about a very difficult 8 day period we've all endured. I agree it's an easy time to have a bit of a go. Thank fuck it's over now and Rafa can show us the qualities  we know he possesses and haul  us into the CL.

 ;D
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Offline ewok-red

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2005, 06:43:59 pm »
A little perspective and patience with the manager is called for.

agreed. but only with the manager.  we should be rounding on the rest of them the moment they are not giving their all.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2005, 11:46:24 am »
agreed. but only with the manager.  we should be rounding on the rest of them the moment they are not giving their all.


This is a complex issue, though. There's more to it than players not giving their all; confidence plays a big part in performance, where players are inhibited by a lack of confidence. Also, when a team is suffering from a lack of confidence as a whole, it's very hard for individuals to rouse themselves.

Ideally, though, you end up with players strong enough to deal with this, and a team gelled to the point where it's almost intuitive and automatic. Takes time...

Offline GerryCrunch

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2005, 02:35:05 pm »
I am one of your targets for your derision here. I was a young lad when Shankly came and so my memory is conveniently rosy but I'll counter some of your points.
Shankly did do one or two things very quickly;
1) Reinstilled in existing players a pride in LFC.
2) Instilled this pride in LFC in new players from day one.
3) In what would be looked on as crude ways today improved the physical fitness of the players.
4) Created a never give in fight from whistle to whistle attitude.

He also tried new tactics players etc which as you say took time to bed in and become effective and you beg time for the new manager and ask for him to be given the leeway Shanks got.
Shanks was asked to come out of a much much deeper hole than Rafa GH Evans or Souness were left with and so deserved to take a little longer with the task.
However I agree Rafa should be given more time than I and others are giving him. I find it difficult to be patient when the basic 4 points I stated initially are not present in todays team. Matters of attitude and correction there of should be addressed immediately.
Our present Liverpool team seldom exhibits the type of Shankly mentallity that rebuilt this club. Only one player seems to be able to play with a "Liverpool " spirit every game and a couple of others can manage to keep the fight up in MOST games.
It is this lack of willingness by the team as a whole to fight the fight that depresses me and makes me less willing to give them more time.
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Offline RedForever05

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2005, 10:07:25 pm »
Absoloutley superb mate! Fantastic!

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #72 on: January 30, 2005, 05:29:55 am »
some sanity in a sea of shite, thanks for putting into perspective a lot of views that are well thought out and a sensible outlook for the near future of our great club.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #73 on: January 30, 2005, 08:20:13 am »
I am one of your targets for your derision here. I was a young lad when Shankly came and so my memory is conveniently rosy but I'll counter some of your points.
Shankly did do one or two things very quickly;
1) Reinstilled in existing players a pride in LFC.
2) Instilled this pride in LFC in new players from day one.
3) In what would be looked on as crude ways today improved the physical fitness of the players.
4) Created a never give in fight from whistle to whistle attitude.



Ever heard of irony?  :wave     There was never meant to be a direct comparison.

As for Rafa not instilling any of the above in this team, I'd disagree. But it's far too in-depth to explain in a quick reply. Suffice to say that I am sure Shanks' teams had games where they looked like they weren't trying, merely because things weren't working or confidence was low. Otherwise Shanks' team would have won every single game they played.

The way Benitez's teams came back against Fulham, Olympiakos, Palace and Arsenal, fighting to the last minute, suggests he was on the right tracks before injuries took their toll and players lost confidence.

Offline GerryCrunch

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2005, 01:32:21 pm »
Obvously I understood your point but disagreed with part of it.
Patience is required in changes that must be deep and long lasting on that we agree but the attitude problem is too real and too significant.
Of course Liverpool teams have played flat in the past but that was the exception you list 4 games where this team really had a go and these unfortunately are the exception. That being the case there is a problem.
Shanks teams lost a number of games even though they gave it everything but still lost, the other team were just better (he of course would never admit that).
This team lets the collective head drop far too easily and that attitude needs changing.
The other aspects of Rafas management in terms of tactics and organisation are first class so I believe he will succeed.
The road back to success will be very long and hard especially as the previous manager used up most of people's patience and the clubs money.
Never never never never never never give in.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2005, 10:27:07 pm »
Of course Liverpool teams have played flat in the past but that was the exception you list 4 games where this team really had a go and these unfortunately are the exception.


I disagree. It's not looked that way recently, but until our recent run of bad form we were showing a lot more character - I listed four games, but there are many more examples (not loads and loads, but there are other games, like Depor away, Monaco at home, Man City at home, and countless other home games). We've had some great results, it's just consistency that's the problem. As is to be expected so early on in a new regime.

Wasn't it five years before Rafa arrived that we'd last come from behind at half-time to win a game? And something like ten years in away games? And it's happened four or five times under Benitez. For all you said about Shanks, I doubt in his first six months that his teams gave everything, every game, from first to last whistle. Because many of the players he inherited would have proved incapable of doing so, and hence it took him three years to get promoted.

It takes time to get players believing fully. Some players will prove incapable of playing a part.

Offline red20

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2005, 10:46:08 pm »
A cracking article Paul,   i enjoyed the read
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Offline GerryCrunch

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #77 on: February 1, 2005, 02:39:16 am »
cant argue the detail os Shanks first 6 months because I plainly do not remember though I was at some of those games.
I could summise in the same fashion you did and say they played their guts out but were not good enough, I will contact my older brother who was around 18 at the time maybe he can enlighten us.
The main point is our differing views on the present teams willingness to give it a go.
I can concede that it probably takes a little more time to win over the egos of the modern player but I am sorry I just do not see the team trying as hard as you seem to.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #78 on: February 1, 2005, 10:49:24 am »
I can concede that it probably takes a little more time to win over the egos of the modern player but I am sorry I just do not see the team trying as hard as you seem to.


Gerry - I'm not saying the players are trying hard enough. But one thing I do know is that players can sometimes be accused of not trying, when the team is merely having a bad day. I do think it's the easiest criticism to aim at players, and I just think there's more to it than that. Some players look like they are trying; others have a style that makes them look lazy. McManaman was always accused of being lazy, and yet covered more ground in a match than any other Liverpool player of his era. Midfield-era Barnes was accused of being lazy, but his style then wasn't to charge about. And so on. I personally think Luis Garcia tries his heart out every game; he's just having a mare at the moment.

There's room for improvement from everyone, I won't deny that.

Offline GerryCrunch

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Re: Why Shankly should have been sacked in 1961
« Reply #79 on: February 2, 2005, 03:12:21 am »
Seems there was improvement tonight though I have not seen even a highlight yet. Just follwed the BBC stuff after work. (I am 5hrs behind in NJ USA).
Seems like a good win to me including second half fight back and sensible tying up of the game in the latter stages. Hope lives eternal.
Never never never never never never give in.