Topic: The Klopp Template

[newterp]

It wouldn't surprise me if we moved Jota on and recruited a young pacey wide player who can play on either wing.

This sentiment seems to be gaining steam. Not sure if it's because of the sell-on value of Jota to help us buy, or if it's that he's injury prone and we need to move to a more robust player, or what?

[Fromola]

That’s a lot of pressure on Diaz, if he’s our only real option on the left, and Nunez, Gakpo, Jota are indeed all considered varying forms of 9’s.

Not really as only one of them can play through the middle in our formation and they can do a job on the left to cover. There's more pressure on Salah on the right.

As alluded to above rather than have 3 number 9's it'd make more sense to have 2 and sign another wide player who can cover Diaz/Salah. Especially if the alternative is Nunez shunted wide half the time.

[istvan kozma]

It wouldn't surprise me if we moved Jota on and recruited a young pacey wide player who can play on either wing.

Apart from Salah he's the only proven PL goalscorer we have on our books & he's in his prime.

[newterp]

Apart from Salah he's the only proven PL goalscorer we have on our books & he's in his prime.

Sadly he hasn't scored in almost a half years worth of PL games. Probably each time he has been coming back from injury.

[HeartAndSoul]

Apart from Salah he's the only proven PL goalscorer we have on our books & he's in his prime.

Erm when talking about goalscorer what do you mean? Because he’s not scored in his last 17 premier league appearances. Wouldn’t really call jota a proven goalscorer

[Coolie High]

We have already done it at times this season. Home to Rangers would be an example, with Thiago and Hendo as a double pivot and Jota in behind Nunez with Diaz and Mo wide.

We then followed that up in the away game at Arsenal until Diaz got injured.

Not for a consistent period i should have said, i don't we doubt we might change to that the odd game or so, but i think more likely than not the number 10 would be a third attacking midfield type rather than a forward like Gakpo, but we'll see.

[istvan kozma]

Erm when talking about goalscorer what do you mean? Because he’s not scored in his last 17 premier league appearances. Wouldn’t really call jota a proven goalscorer

He scored 21 goals last season, when he was fit and available. Look around the league, people who are in their mid 20's capable of scoring 20+ aren't readily available.

[Knight]

Our forward line looks unbalanced - that’s one of the reasons the Jota shouts aren’t insane. But hopefully there’s a master plan and with them all fit and a functioning midfield we’ll learn what it is.

[istvan kozma]

Our forward line looks unbalanced -that’s one of the reasons the Jota shouts aren’t insane. But hopefully there’s a master plan and with them all fit and a functioning midfield we’ll learn what it is.

Maybe the fact that Diaz and Jota have missed a big chunk of the season, is why the attack has looked unbalanced.

[Motty]

My feeling is everyone is getting too set on what the 3 starting forwards will be as if we will be back to the Mane - Firmino - Salah forward line playing every game, we have 5 great options in there now which we've not had under Klopp previously so we will see plenty of change from game to game, Diaz - Nunez - Salah for low block teams with maybe Gakpo as the advanced midfielder, maybe Diaz/Nunez - Gakpo - Salah against the teams where there's more space with Diaz in place of Salah sometimes to give him a rest, maybe even Salah up top instead of Gakpo, then throw Jota into the mix and he could cover most of those positions if needed.

We just need a more athletic midfield and better defence to help it work now.

[collytum]

We had an almost perfect team to play a 4-3-3 a couple of years ago, top keeper, solid defence with attacking fullbacks, workhorse midfield and a speedy skilful cohesive front 3. I wish we would be open to different formations, its clear the current formation no longer works with the players we have.

[Knight]

Maybe the fact that Diaz and Jota have missed a big chunk of the season, is why the attack has looked unbalanced.

Yes totally, I’m hopeful that once they’re back the master plan will become clear and it’ll be obvious why this group of players works. But from what we’ve actually seen so far, it doesn’t look entirely balanced. Nunez, Gapko and Jota all prefer playing down the middle. Nunez putting up massive numbers as a 9 but shunted out wide to put Gapoko centrally when we spent potentially double on him. Then getting hooked for not doing the defensive work (which is no surprise - he’s a big lad who is never going to be a Duracell bunny like Mane). Only one player to play inside right and he increasingly needs to be central too as he ages. Only one player to play inside left who’s genuinely at his best there.

[Fromola]

Maybe the fact that Diaz and Jota have missed a big chunk of the season, is why the attack has looked unbalanced.

It is unbalanced though. You've got 4 number 9's, one left sided forward in Diaz and one right sided one in Salah. Diaz or Salah are out and it's square pegs in round holes.

[Dave McCoy]

At this point there's no way the "Template" is changing. And honestly it has won everything so why change what's not broke assuming you have the necessary parts? Which is really the main concern as I don't think some of our recent purchases make any sense given the Template but we keep playing to the Template give or take some tinkering here and there. Will be interesting to see what we do in the summer.

[Knight]

Either the template is changing or we’re deeply confused about what the template is or whether the template should change. There’s no way you buy Nunez to play wide left and there’s no way you buy Nunez thinking he’s going to be a similar sort of player as Firmino. And as soon as you move away from the false 9 thing your template has changed significantly.

[El Lobo]

Or we think there'll be games where we need more of a wrecking ball up front (Nunez), there'll be games where we need more of a lock picker up front (Gakpo) and at the moment they're playing where they are because without Diaz we havent really got that searing pace we sometimes need.

[killer-heels]

Or we think there'll be games where we need more of a wrecking ball up front (Nunez), there'll be games where we need more of a lock picker up front (Gakpo) and at the moment they're playing where they are because without Diaz we havent really got that searing pace we sometimes need.

I think in the summer we are going to have a fundamental rethink about how the attack functions and how to get the best out of it. In 16/17 you saw we came back and it was clear we were going with Bobby as a false 9 and fitting players around it.

Right now I think we are trying to find out something which could give us results in some way, but clearly that we have plenty of holes there that we are struggling to mitigate against.

[El Lobo]

I dont think its a coincidence that we're almost overloading the attack, with very different players to those we've relied on previously. As unlucky as we were not to score....last season we had three finals and didn't score in any of them. The annoyance is that other parts of the side have gone to shit, but this is the right way I think. Starting a game with Salah, Firmino and Mane with Jota and Origi is good depth but there's not a huge amount of variety. Starting a game with Salah, Gakpo and Diaz and being able to bring on Nunez and Jota is massive. Likewise then being able to switch Nunez in for a game against a weaker, more bus parking side is huge. But...clearly isn't going to look particularly fruitful until the rest of the side is functioning a lot better than it has.

[killer-heels]

I dont think its a coincidence that we're almost overloading the attack, with very different players to those we've relied on previously. As unlucky as we were not to score....last season we had three finals and didn't score in any of them. The annoyance is that other parts of the side have gone to shit, but this is the right way I think. Starting a game with Salah, Firmino and Mane with Jota and Origi is good depth but there's not a huge amount of variety. Starting a game with Salah, Gakpo and Diaz and being able to bring on Nunez and Jota is massive. Likewise then being able to switch Nunez in for a game against a weaker, more bus parking side is huge. But...clearly isn't going to look particularly fruitful until the rest of the side is functioning a lot better than it has.

Possibly. I am not convinced yet that its easy for a side to have different types of systems and setup's for different teams. Of course tactically you can tweak things but someone like Gakpo plays the role completely differently to Nunez, so its a bit difficult to have a side set up to get the ball to a player a certain way and then change it for another.

Guess we will have to see. I think there is still a bit more work that needs to be done in the summer and whilst the obvious solution will be tactical, I wouldn't rule out something in the transfer market.

[El Lobo]

Possibly. I am not convinced yet that its easy for a side to have different types of systems and setup's for different teams. Of course tactically you can tweak things but someone like Gakpo plays the role completely differently to Nunez, so its a bit difficult to have a side set up to get the ball to a player a certain way and then change it for another.

Guess we will have to see. I think there is still a bit more work that needs to be done in the summer and whilst the obvious solution will be tactical, I wouldn't rule out something in the transfer market.

I dont see why not. Its not exactly re-inventing the wheel. Sometimes we'll play with a false nine, sometimes we'll play with an out and out nine. Defence the same, midfield the same, attack slightly different.

[killer-heels]

I dont see why not. Its not exactly re-inventing the wheel. Sometimes we'll play with a false nine, sometimes we'll play with an out and out nine. Defence the same, midfield the same, attack slightly different.

I think it will be based on the compromises we feel we have to make with each of the attacking set ups. With Mane, Firmino and Salah, they really didn't have an issue against any setup. For all the crying about not being that great against parked busses, our results in 18-20 showed that not really to be a big issue. Obviously that attack also did what Jurgen wanted from a defensive standpoint.

I think it will be hard/impossible to get a front three as good as that again. But if we can construct an attack that can do everything Jurgen wants then its questionable how many different set ups we need. I can see a case of different systems though using different types of players and that will be as a direct result of Klopp thinking a certain set up has a certain amount of weaknesses against different systems.

[Knight]

Thanks Lobo, interesting thoughts. I wonder if the idea that a false 9 and a 'true' 9 are small variations and it's a 'slightly different' attack fails to understand the actual difference and what happens to the other 2 forwards when a 9 either mostly drops deep or mostly wants to play on the last shoulder. I also wonder if it fails to understand the knock on effect of having an effective presser vs an ineffective presser in the 9 position and the knock on effect to both the fullbacks and the midfield in terms of their defensive shape. I'd have no issue with a 'plan B' type centre forward who was brought in when we needed a goal or were chasing a game which was a move from our standard template. I just think if you pay a (potential) club record fee on a forward, it's a little odd to treat him like that. There's also little evidence that Gapko even is a 'lock picker'.

[El Lobo]

I think it will be based on the compromises we feel we have to make with each of the attacking set ups. With Mane, Firmino and Salah, they really didn't have an issue against any setup. For all the crying about not being that great against parked busses, our results in 18-20 showed that not really to be a big issue. Obviously that attack also did what Jurgen wanted from a defensive standpoint.

I think it will be hard/impossible to get a front three as good as that again. But if we can construct an attack that can do everything Jurgen wants then its questionable how many different set ups we need. I can see a case of different systems though using different types of players and that will be as a direct result of Klopp thinking a certain set up has a certain amount of weaknesses against different systems.

Feels churlish to point it out in a season where we got 97 points....but the points we did drop in 18/19 were mainly against bus parkers.

But I think more to the point like you say...we're not going to get a front three as good as that again. To me it seems pretty clear that we want more options, I dont buy this idea that we signed Nunez whilst still planning to play with a false 9 and then went 'Oh right yeah Nunez isn't a false 9, put him on the left' and then signed Gakpo and went 'Oh right yeah we were gonna play Nunez wide weren't we? Stick him in the middle then'.

[Eeyore]

Whilst there is obviously a difference in style between Nunez and Bobby. It is not as if Klopp has always played with a false 9. I would say Aubameyang was an out-and-out striker who relied on his pace and movement at Dortmund. That is a role Nunez could grow into here.

Likewise Klopp hasn't always played a flat three in midfield. At Dortmund Kagawa played in behind the striker and used his pace to pick up the ball and break the lines. Again that is a role I could see Gakpo growing into here.

Klopp tweaked his system to accommodate Mane, Bobby and Mo. It still had the fundamentals of a Klopp side and fitted within the template. We need to stop thinking in terms of the players individual attributes and look at what Klopp requires from his forward line. Think of the attack as a collective and not as individuals.   

[killer-heels]

Whilst there is obviously a difference in style between Nunez and Bobby. It is not as if Klopp has always played with a false 9. I would say Aubameyang was an out-and-out striker who relied on his pace and movement at Dortmund. That is a role Nunez could grow into here.

Likewise Klopp hasn't always played a flat three in midfield. At Dortmund Kagawa played in behind the striker and used his pace to pick up the ball and break the lines. Again that is a role I could see Gakpo growing into here.

Klopp tweaked his system to accommodate Mane, Bobby and Mo. It still had the fundamentals of a Klopp side and fitted within the template. We need to stop thinking in terms of the players individual attributes and look at what Klopp requires from his forward line. Think of the attack as a collective and not as individuals.   

The common theme is pressing and ability to defend from the front. I still believe we are limited there based on Klopp’s comments and needs much more work.

[HeartAndSoul]

The common theme is pressing and ability to defend from the front. I still believe we are limited there based on Klopp’s comments and needs much more work.

Yep neither nunez or salah are the greatest of pressers. I would say jota and Diaz are our best pressers in the front line but for us to be functioning at full capacity, we need the player playing in the middle to be a pressing monster and nunez sadly isn’t that. We either adapt our play style by not pressing as much or a change of formation where we can get someone up top with nunez to help with the press. Nunez on the left works great when we’re playing teams who are coming at us but when teams are sitting deep, he’s a bit useless with no space to run in behind which makes you question why we signed him in the first place, if he’s going to be getting played on the left.

[El Lobo]

Or he learns to press better because you know...he's 23

[FlashGordon]

Or he learns to press better because you know...he's 23

You're having a laugh. Players aren't allowed to improve aspects of their game as they settle down at a club and take on board some coaching.

[Dave McCoy]

Either the template is changing or we’re deeply confused about what the template is or whether the template should change. There’s no way you buy Nunez to play wide left and there’s no way you buy Nunez thinking he’s going to be a similar sort of player as Firmino. And as soon as you move away from the false 9 thing your template has changed significantly.

So what you’re really saying is the recruitment might be bad? Maybe this is why Ward is leaving? Supposedly the choice was between Nkunku and Nunez which if true would be really odd as they are completely different players.

I dont think its a coincidence that we're almost overloading the attack, with very different players to those we've relied on previously. As unlucky as we were not to score....last season we had three finals and didn't score in any of them. The annoyance is that other parts of the side have gone to shit, but this is the right way I think. Starting a game with Salah, Firmino and Mane with Jota and Origi is good depth but there's not a huge amount of variety. Starting a game with Salah, Gakpo and Diaz and being able to bring on Nunez and Jota is massive. Likewise then being able to switch Nunez in for a game against a weaker, more bus parking side is huge. But...clearly isn't going to look particularly fruitful until the rest of the side is functioning a lot better than it has.

We have the same amount of attackers as any other season so this really doesn’t jive. Minamino, Shaqiri, Origi, Ings, Brewster, etc etc. Not a lot of sameness there. Just that we’re spending a lot more on at least one or two that will mainly be backups. Klopp has never evenly distributed attacking minutes.

[Eeyore]

We have the same amount of attackers as any other season so this really doesn’t jive. Minamino, Shaqiri, Origi, Ings, Brewster, etc etc. Not a lot of sameness there. Just that we’re spending a lot more on at least one or two that will mainly be backups. Klopp has never evenly distributed attacking minutes.

That simply isn't true.

In 17/18 until Coutinho joined Barca we regularly rotated the front three. We did the same with Jota in 20/21 and 21/22 and last season Diaz came on as a sub eight times and was an unused sub on three occasions.

If the quality is there then Klopp has no problem distributing attacking minutes.

The weakness at the moment is the two wide attacking roles which is why it wouldn't surprise me if we move Jota on and bring in a wide player who can cover both flanks. We could also promote Doak or switch to the kind of system Klopp played at Dortmund which would have Nunez providing the extreme pace through the middle like Auba did at Dortmund with more creativity in one of the wide positions.

[Knight]

the kind of system Klopp played at Dortmund which would have Nunez providing the extreme pace through the middle like Auba did at Dortmund with more creativity in one of the wide positions.

Salah at 10, Elliot wide right, Nunez at 9 and Diaz from the left. 2 athletic 6s in the middle.

[Eeyore]

Salah at 10, Elliot wide right, Nunez at 9 and Diaz from the left. 2 athletic 6s in the middle.

I think that is the way we should look at it from now on. Combinations of players that provide the elements that Klopp requires from his forward line. He wants extreme pace that can be utilised during transitions, pressing, an ability to close down passing lanes, a physical presence to hold the ball up, goalscoring and creativity.

Probably the outlier is Bobby. Unlike Lewandowski or Aubameyang he didn't provide extreme pace through the middle. However he was pretty exceptional at everything else.

For me Klopp is looking to create a balanced forward line that incorporates all the elements he requires.

[MonsLibpool]

One fundamental issue that we have this season is that we are not press-resistant. Even in the 7-0, I noticed the same thing and it's hard to string wins together if a team lacks that.

My definition of press-resistant is having the capability to play through a press OR having reliable outlets to bypass it. Looking at individual players, Thiago is the only truly press-resistant player that we have. He can receive it in any position and turn nothing into something. IMO, his best performance this season was against Chelsea at home because he was playing with two teenagers and he added some composure to our performance by serving as a "pressure valve". He received all sorts of passes, some at awkward angles or heights and he somehow still made something of it.

Take him out of the team and we have no reliable player that can handle pressure with ease. If you don't have this sort of player then you need to bypass the press by hitting someone in the frontline that can hold it OR playing long passes for a speedy attacker to chase. In 2017/18, Mo was used in this way as Trent used to play a lot of pinpoint passes for him to chase and he was quicker than most so it was very effective. We can't do that anymore because he's lost a yard.

The only player in our frontline that can do that is Darwin but Robbo doesn't have the range to play those passes. If we move Darwin to the right then we'll have a reliable outball because Trent can always hit him. However, the right side isn't his best position.

In terms of playing it into someone for him to hold it up, we simply don't have a player with those qualities. This is an issue that needs to be addressed this summer.

[MonsLibpool]

One fundamental issue that we have this season is that we are not press-resistant. Even in the 7-0, I noticed the same thing and it's hard to string wins together if a team lacks that.

My definition of press-resistant is having the capability to play through a press OR having reliable outlets to bypass it. Looking at individual players, Thiago is the only truly press-resistant player that we have. He can receive it in any position and turn nothing into something. IMO, his best performance this season was against Chelsea at home because he was playing with two teenagers and he added some composure to our performance by serving as a "pressure valve". He received all sorts of passes, some at awkward angles or heights and he somehow still made something of it.

Take him out of the team and we have no reliable player that can handle pressure with ease. If you don't have this sort of player then you need to bypass the press by hitting someone in the frontline that can hold it OR playing long passes for a speedy attacker to chase. In 2017/18, Mo was used in this way as Trent used to play a lot of pinpoint passes for him to chase and he was quicker than most so it was very effective. We can't do that anymore because he's lost a yard.

The only player in our frontline that can do that is Darwin but Robbo doesn't have the range to play those passes. If we move Darwin to the right then we'll have a reliable outball because Trent can always hit him. However, the right side isn't his best position.

In terms of playing it into someone for him to hold it up, we simply don't have a player with those qualities. This is an issue that needs to be addressed this summer.

We lack a consistent solution to being pressed.

[robertobaggio37]

 

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Care to add context?

[redhokie8]

Shades of Madrid, joke!

[RedSamba]

what template

[cdav]

No one wants to tackle in this team, its a fundamental that we don't even want to try to compete anymore. Passive all over the pitch

[DelTrotter]

The biggest, toughest job of his career from now. A really poor team, a massive wage bill, a shit transfer budget compared to our rivals and some players he loves, legends of the club that simply must be told to leave. All summers are big but this is possibly our biggest in a long, long time.