Topic: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic

[ianburns252]

Which of course underlines that you can't build any conclusion on 1,24 v 2 %, as there would have to be additional clauses in order to support armlength

Thats my point - in the case of this there is no arms length requirement.

If FSG was a manufacturer or football kits and sold them to us at a below market rate then we would have to gross up in the accounts but they can loan at any rate they want without need for justification.

[Ipcress]

I hate to break it you mate it's called Liverpool FOOTBALL Club not Liverpool business Club. The aim is to be successful on the pitch not the balance sheet.

The owners can't have it both ways. They can't look to pretend we are a global family based around our love of the game and LFC in particular and then look to make cold business decisions.

If they want it to be a pure business then can they please inform me when I will be getting a return on the tens of thousands of pounds I have pumped into the business over the last 30 years.

In which case, why bother with fans opinions on ticket prices? As long as there is 11 people to kick a ball, they are fulfilling all their obligations.

[Jake]

Right so we've established now Al wants a sugar daddy.

[Chakan]

I hate to break it you mate it's called Liverpool FOOTBALL Club not Liverpool business Club. The aim is to be successful on the pitch not the balance sheet.

The owners can't have it both ways. They can't look to pretend we are a global family based around our love of the game and LFC in particular and then look to make cold business decisions.

If they want it to be a pure business then can they please inform me when I will be getting a return on the tens of thousands of pounds I have pumped into the business over the last 30 years.

You're already got a return on the money you've spent at the club. You got to see Liverpool play. It's weird you think you deserve more.

Your sense of entitlement is astonishing.

[JerseyKloppite]

That’s just incredible.

If you spend money at a supermarket do you think you own shares in it?

[El Lobo]

Right so we've established now Al wants a sugar daddy.

This is exactly it to be fair, but he doesn't like to actually acknowledge it. Its why the old FSG thread got closed and why he tries to turn a lot of other threads into FSG threads.

[SP]

That’s just incredible.

If you spend money at a supermarket do you think you own shares in it?

He shops at the co-op.

[JerseyKloppite]

He shops at the co-op.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Right so we've established now Al wants a sugar daddy.

No, but a more lenient requirement on for instance the numbers of years that each investment has to be paid off would be handy..

the current set-up is tougher/stricter than lots of companies that's only it in for the money/profits

[Ipcress]

I hate to break it you mate it's called Liverpool FOOTBALL Club not Liverpool business Club. The aim is to be successful on the pitch not the balance sheet.

The owners can't have it both ways. They can't look to pretend we are a global family based around our love of the game and LFC in particular and then look to make cold business decisions.

If they want it to be a pure business then can they please inform me when I will be getting a return on the tens of thousands of pounds I have pumped into the business over the last 30 years.

I hate to be the one to tell you, but all that money hasn't even paid for Firmino's wage this week.

[jillcwhomever]

He shops at the co-op.

That's a good one. 

[Giovanni]

So the fans in the main stand, are they abnormal or subnormal fans?

This level of pedantry and nit-picking is helping no one.

How many GA tickets did the new MS give us? That's the bottom line.

[Johnny Foreigner]

That’s just incredible.

If you spend money at a supermarket do you think you own shares in it?

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

How is it patronising? It was a really dumb remark and he got pulled up on it.

He's already had a return on those money. Like admission to the ground.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

Replace "supporter" with "customer" and that, word for word, reads like pretty much every single company's mission statement.

LFC is a business as well as a football club, always has been.

[jepovic]

Just of curiosity: Which club's owners would you like to have? Is there anyone that you're jealous of?

For my sake, I'm not the slightest jealous of ManC or Chelsea. I think it would kill my interest if we had owners like that.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Replace "supporter" with "customer" and that, word for word, reads like pretty much every single company's mission statement.

LFC is a business as well as a football club, always has been.

Any particular ones that stands out as similar to LFC's club charter ?

Mission statements vary considerably from company to company. The following examples are the mission statements of some of the trending companies as of 2017:

Microsoft – Empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more.
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation – We see equal value in all lives. And so we are dedicated to improving the quality of life for individuals around the world.
Chipotle – To change the way people think about and eat fast food.
MGM Resorts International – The leader in entertainment & hospitality - a diverse collection of extraordinary people, distinctive brands and best in class destinations.
Nike – To bring inspiration and innovation to every athlete in the world.
Walmart – We save people money so they can live better.
Starbucks – To inspire and nurture the human spirit – one person, one cup and one neighborhood at a time.
Tesla – To accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy.
Airbnb –  Belong anywhere
JP Morgan – To be the best financial services company in the world

[Xabi Gerrard]

Any particular ones that stands out as similar to LFC's club charter ?

Mission statements vary considerably from company to company. The following examples are the mission statements of some of the trending companies as of 2017:

Microsoft – Empower every person and organization on the planet to achieve more.
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation – We see equal value in all lives. And so we are dedicated to improving the quality of life for individuals around the world.
Chipotle – To change the way people think about and eat fast food.
MGM Resorts International – The leader in entertainment & hospitality - a diverse collection of extraordinary people, distinctive brands and best in class destinations.
Nike – To bring inspiration and innovation to every athlete in the world.
Walmart – We save people money so they can live better.
Starbucks – To inspire and nurture the human spirit – one person, one cup and one neighborhood at a time.
Tesla – To accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy.
Airbnb –  Belong anywhere
JP Morgan – To be the best financial services company in the world

Alright, "Mission Statement" was the wrong phrase - my bad. It does read like a highlighted paragraph in the introduction of every companies' Annual Report though.

Surely you can agree on that? The relationship with the customer, the contribution of customers to the the success of the company, etc.

[CraigDS]

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

How does that back up Al's claim that because he has spent money he therefore should be getting a return?

I mean the fact he has spent and received a product (be it a ticket, a shirt, a pie, whatever) is his return. That's what has been pointed out to him. So what in that charter disputes this?

[Chakan]

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

Here's a question for you, other than what AL has bought from the club (ticket, shirts, pie, drink, whatever), what do you think he should be entitled to?

[JerseyKloppite]

Maybe stop the patronizing and read up on the club charter

"Since its formation in 1892, Liverpool Football Club always has - and continues to - enjoy a unique relationship with its loyal and dedicated supporter base. It recognises and respects the invaluable contribution made by each and every supporter to the ongoing success and longevity of the Club"

It’s not remotely patronising, it was a bizarre thing to say. Your return if you pay for a ticket is watching the match. Your return if you buy a shirt is... the shirt. If you give the club money as a supported you will receive something in return. You’re not an investor.

If you invest EMOTIONALLY you may be frustrated not get what you consider yourself entitled to in response but that’s so far away from a debate about ticket prices and revenue etc

[Johnny Foreigner]

Here's a question for you, other than what AL has bought from the club (ticket, shirts, pie, drink, whatever), what do you think he should be entitled to?

A fully, committed focus on winning trophies combined with sound business operations..

In financial terms that would mean reduction of the requirements towards value creation (both in years and absolute values) and making us more competitive on the pitch..

[Johnny Foreigner]

It’s not remotely patronising, it was a bizarre thing to say. Your return if you pay for a ticket is watching the match. Your return if you buy a shirt is... the shirt. If you give the club money as a supported you will receive something in return. You’re not an investor.

If you invest EMOTIONALLY you may be frustrated not get what you consider yourself entitled to in response but that’s so far away from a debate about ticket prices and revenue etc

Fair enough..

[Chakan]

A fully, committed focus on winning trophies combined with sound business operations..

In financial terms that would mean reduction of the requirements towards value creation (both in years and absolute values) and making us more competitive on the pitch..

Seems like they've met all those criteria. So job in the process of being done.

[Johnny Foreigner]

How does that back up Al's claim that because he has spent money he therefore should be getting a return?

I mean the fact he has spent and received a product (be it a ticket, a shirt, a pie, whatever) is his return. That's what has been pointed out to him. So what in that charter disputes this?

How does that back up Al's claim that because he has spent money he therefore should be getting a return?

I mean the fact he has spent and received a product (be it a ticket, a shirt, a pie, whatever) is his return. That's what has been pointed out to him. So what in that charter disputes this?

The return for the supporter is emotions, moments and hopefully trophies (longevity and success as stated); not the pies..

[Chakan]

The return for the supporter is emotions, moments and hopefully trophies (longevity and success as stated); not the pies..

So they've provided that. We've had tons of emotions and tons of "moments" and we've hopefully had trophies, just not the actual trophy yet, although we've been in quite a few finals.

Then again that's not what AL was talking about was it?

[CraigDS]

The return for the supporter is emotions, moments and hopefully trophies (longevity and success as stated); not the pies..

That's not what Al said though.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Seems like they've met all those criteria. So job in the process of being done.

What's your stance on the current financial pay-back requirements ?

Is it fair for a footballing operation to have tougher requirements than organisations that solely have profit purposes ?

[Johnny Foreigner]

That's not what Al said though.

Don't like it but I might stand corrected !!

[ianburns252]

What's your stance on the current financial pay-back requirements ?

Is it fair for a footballing operation to have tougher requirements than organisations that solely have profit purposes ?

Sorry, it feels like I'm just chasing around after you but your points/questions are all in my field of interest.

I think the trade off is that the owners aren't extracting any of the profit via dividends or Glazed style repayments. Yes, we are paying the loan back quicker than most commercial lenders would require but we are paying a lot less interest and having seen our recent transfer activity it doesn't seem to hamper us.

If it would make a significant difference to pay it back over a longer period then I would be all for it but while it is sustainable and not holding us back I don't take issue with it

[Johnny Foreigner]

Sorry, it feels like I'm just chasing around after you but your points/questions are all in my field of interest.

I think the trade off is that the owners aren't extracting any of the profit via dividends or Glazed style repayments. Yes, we are paying the loan back quicker than most commercial lenders would require but we are paying a lot less interest and having seen our recent transfer activity it doesn't seem to hamper us.

If it would make a significant difference to pay it back over a longer period then I would be all for it but while it is sustainable and not holding us back I don't take issue with it

Absolutely no worries !

Yes, I can see where you're coming from and agree in principal..

However, painting a bleak picture - if FSG are selling out now :

* The club is in good financial shape
* But net spend is low and success on the pitch have been modest
* the financial return for the owners would be pretty decent to say it the least..

Cup half-full/half empty I guess; are we in a position to go full steam to win something - or will it be value preservation..

[reddebs]

Cheap tickets, more availability, less corporates/hospitality/OOTers plus loads more young locals = Everton [emoji16]

[Chakan]

Absolutely no worries !

Yes, I can see where you're coming from and agree in principal..

However, painting a bleak picture - if FSG are selling out now :

* The club is in good financial shape
* But net spend is low and success on the pitch have been modest
* the financial return for the owners would be pretty decent to say it the least..

Cup half-full/half empty I guess; are we in a position to go full steam to win something - or will it be value preservation..

While the net spend might be low the progress on the pitch is visible for all to see. If it wasn't then there would be an issue.

As for success being modest, we've gotten to 4 finals under FSG winning one and losing 3, I don't think you can blame the owners for losing a one off game, but some will.

Also i'd count the 13/14 run to the title as a final as it's the closest we've come.

[CraigDS]

As for success being modest, we've gotten to 4 finals under FSG winning one and losing 3, I don't think you can blame the owners for losing a one off game, but some will.

Also i'd count the 13/14 run to the title as a final as it's the closest we've come.

Indeed.

As fans we can't expect success, or think we're entitled to it, however we should be in the running for it - and it would be hard pressed to say that hasn't been the case.

[El Lobo]

Don't like it but I might stand corrected !!

 

What they're doing is absolutely drilling into somethink Al said which was a bit daft. Which with most posters would be a bit out of order and a bit sly, but with Al is absolutely fair because its what he's done countless times when he thinks he's got a point.

Of course you shouldn't expect a 'return' as a fan. I mean I think you can probably expect the players to try their hardest and the owners not to take the piss. Blackpool fans are probably justified in thinking they're not getting a return. But Liverpool...? Personally I think we've had a bigger return than most. Even under FSG, how on earth can you be going to the game watching this side evolving and think you're not getting a return?! Bonkers.

[ianburns252]

What they're doing is absolutely drilling into somethink Al said which was a bit daft. Which with most posters would be a bit out of order and a bit sly, but with Al is absolutely fair because its what he's done countless times when he thinks he's got a point.

Of course you shouldn't expect a 'return' as a fan. I mean I think you can probably expect the players to try their hardest and the owners not to take the piss. Blackpool fans are probably justified in thinking they're not getting a return. But Liverpool...? Personally I think we've had a bigger return than most. Even under FSG, how on earth can you be going to the game watching this side evolving and think you're not getting a return?! Bonkers.

That second paragraph is absolutely key for me. The 13/14 season, for example, will be etched in my memory for years to come as one of the most exciting seasons ever. Those memories are my 'return on investment'.

The owners haven't been perfect but I sense no malice or impropriety in their actions, more that they are strong headed people who thought they could make certain things work due to their own experience and changed direction when fans pushed back.

[Jake]

No, but a more lenient requirement on for instance the numbers of years that each investment has to be paid off would be handy..

the current set-up is tougher/stricter than lots of companies that's only it in for the money/profits

Agree on the first point. It would be nice if they would extend the Annie Road end and if they don't, citing the length of time that it would take to see a return, I'll be disappointed and pissed off.

But

It's a decision that has to be made. If 100 seats would provide a return and start seeing profit in 30 years, is that justified to ask them to be out of pocket for 30 years? When is the cut off?

[WisconsinRed]

So im guessing most of you on here have business degrees and/or run your own successful businesses? The way some go on, defending the "business decisions" of billionaires, you'd not think that you were fans of a footy team. We as fans should be asking/demanding for as much as possible out of the owners rather than meekly agreeing that we should buy things for them. As the saying goes 'if you don't ask you don't get'.

[ianburns252]

So im guessing most of you on here have business degrees and/or run your own successful businesses? The way some go on, defending the "business decisions" of billionaires, you'd not think that you were fans of a footy team. We as fans should be asking/demanding for as much as possible out of the owners rather than meekly agreeing that we should buy things for them. As the saying goes 'if you don't ask you don't get'.

It doesn't require parity to have understanding. I love the club as much as anyone but I can see that a certain amount of compromise is needed.

I agree to an extent about ' you don't ask you don't get' but there has to be an element of rationality and reasonable expectation to it.

I genuinely believe it to be vital that the club is run as a sustainable and profitable business to help support the excellent work that Klopp is doing on the pitch.

[Eeyore]

And I hate to break it to you, mate, but I think you might be forgetting that only 7 years ago we were almost in administration and the team was down the toilet because we had owners who ran us like idiots.

It doesn't matter how good we are on the pitch - there are a multitude of rules in place now demanding strong governance of the club which if we contravene them will undo any work on the field.

Or, try this one on for size, we run the club like a bunch of morons, completely ruin the balance sheet, have no money at all to buy players, run up against issues relating to running a business under CA06, audit standards etc. leading to a qualified audit report, loans getting called in where we have them with banks and other financiers, investors pull out and we are left with no money and potentially no club.

The reason we nearly went into administration is very clear it happened because the owners of the Football Club put their own interests ahead of the Football Club. They leveraged the acquisition debt onto the Football Club.

As for the rest of your post what is the relevance. It is patently obvious that the business side of the Club has to be run properly. The question is whether the business side of the Club exists to support the needs of the Football side of the Club.

Right now in my opinion the Football Club exists for the needs of FSG. When the likes of yourself are talking about making the correct business decisions those decisions aren't even in the best interests of LFC the business.

The owners themselves have stated quite openly that they were shocked initially about how decisions made in Liverpool effected their relationship with fans of the Red Sox and vice versa.