Topic: Liverpool vs Arsenal March 4th 2017. KO 5.30

[daggerdoo]

Great OP Razor. That Neil Mellor strike is still one that i remember so vividly, was an exciting time for the cub. I was watching it with two pals, manure & nawrich.

I can see us putting out the same group of players that did so well against spuds, but i think it will be hard to press and dictate from midfield if Hendo isn't playing

[vinothmct]

I'm afraid this season is ending the way of 2014/2015 season . After utd loss we went on a freefall when we had nothing to play for. Same is happening here. After Wolves and southampton loss, I dont see the fight in the players. Spurs is an exception .

3 points essential against them .

[Upinsmoke]

Can't really be arsed going to this. Granted we do better against the so called bigger teams but missing Hendo is probably as big as a blow as we could get considering the lack of fight on show the other night.

I know too many weren't happy with Firmino the other night, would anyone start Origi instead? Has he even ever started a game alongside Coutinho and Mane?

[Didi_ram]

Can't even lie, I'm struggling to get motivated for this. All seems a bit 'meh' right now

Come on boys, this is the type of game you have thrived in this season. Pressure will be on Arsenal here

Yeah, although this is the type of game that we are more likely to win. Although if we play like we did vs Leicester, we are gonna get thrashed. Motivation is very low now.

[Pistolero]

We'll probably play well...we'll probably win......but even if we do, the first thought when leaving the ground will be 'I bet we wont beat Burnley' and we probably wont. That's the grim place we're at right now.

[YoungKopite]

A very nice OP.

Liverpool only turn up against good teams, that makes me confident for Saturday.
The battle of the bottlers.

i would enjoy a win, but not truly enjoy it ,because it wouldn't really show that we've made progress or turned a corner on our issues against the sides that we should supposedly be beating. But beating a rival is always a happy feeling.

Having read the OP it's very well written. Good job.

Sums it up perfectly for me.

[Zoomers]

Must win just like how the Leicester game was a must win too.

[paulrazor]

Top OP Hellrazor cheers for that

just edited it there mate to give you your credit

thanks for the help out

[Klippity Klopp]

We need to still be behind this team 100%.

Yes the last two months have been disappointing, bar that Spurs game.  But we are capable of going on a run, as we proved it earlier in the season.  After we lost to Burnley at the beginning of the season everyone was really down as well, but the side reacted.

Top Four is still feasible and while that is the case we have to back the side and try to be positive.  All the doom and gloom won't help anyone.  We might not make top four and then questions will need to be asked about various things.  But until then let's try and be positive and help the team trying to get top four.  The side need to play like they did vs Spurs and then maintain that level.  Easier said than done, but it's possible and I think we need to believe.

[harryc]

Going to be tough if Hendo is not available unless Klopp can change the formation from how we have been set up recently.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

I know everyone is feeling meh. Gutted, in fact. I emigrated from Oz last week in hope to see a title run in conjunction with my move (off to the Burnley game next week, too).

We need to stay positive. From a big picture perspective, we have a lot of home games coming up. If we can win three of our next four games (hopefully four of them!) top four is still there. Given every other team around us has a congested fixture list we need to capitalise. Simple as that.

We're feeling like shit about football right now. Think how frustrated Jurgen Klopp is. Seeing this group of players letting him down time and time again after promisng so much. We owe it to the guy to turn up and get this lot over the line. There will be consequences for the current playing group at the season's end. We'll still be here as will Klopp.

We have to stick together as a club and fight. End of.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Anyone not arsed want to give up their ticket? Because I'll gladly go and make some noise for 90 minutes. I agree that a win guarantees nothing but it keeps the season alive. Anything less than a win here and I don't see us getting top four. And that means two months of pretty much meaningless football, which is shit.

I feel like people have been brainwashed by certain elements of our fanbase about the 'title race' we've fallen away from this season and anything less is pointless. With one top four finish in eight years why are we turning our nose up at the thought of watching a Jurgen Klopp side in the Champions League? More to the point, didn't we used to turn our nose up at Arsenal fans claiming they'd been in a title race despite falling away by February/March? Newsflash: we weren't even in one this season. So let's at least stay in the top four race until the end. Because what I really can't be arsed with is having absolutely nothing to believe in.

[liversaint]

Great OP.

expects rest of thread to be usual mix of optimism, bedwetting and snidey " i told you we won't get top 4, 5th or 6th" type posts....

looking forward to it personally

[paulrazor]

Anyone not arsed want to give up their ticket? Because I'll gladly go and make some noise for 90 minutes. I agree that a win guarantees nothing but it keeps the season alive. Anything less than a win here and I don't see us getting top four. And that means two months of pretty much meaningless football, which is shit.

I feel like people have been brainwashed by certain elements of our fanbase about the 'title race' we've fallen away from this season and anything less is pointless. With one top four finish in eight years why are we turning our nose up at the thought of watching a Jurgen Klopp side in the Champions League? More to the point, didn't we used to turn our nose up at Arsenal fans claiming they'd been in a title race despite falling away by February/March? Newsflash: we weren't even in one this season. So let's at least stay in the top four race until the end. Because what I really can't be arsed with is having absolutely nothing to believe in.

AMEN

[plura]

I far from feel the same but sure I do understand where you guys are coming from. But we're very much still in this still. It's all in our hands to decide where we end up when the season has finished.

I choose to believe. Believe in the team and in Klopp. Because I know how quickly things can change. Just look at us 1-2months ago.
And after all it's Arsenal. Arsenal at late is a team we like to play against. And lastly it's the weekend and it's football ffs.

[El Lobo]

I far from feel the same but sure I do understand where you guys are coming from. But we're very much still in this still. It's all in our hands to decide where we end up when the season has finished.

I choose to believe. Believe in the team and in Klopp. Because I know how quickly things can change. Just look at us 1-2months ago.
And after all it's Arsenal. Arsenal at late is a team we like to play against. And lastly it's the weekend and it's football ffs.

Absolutely.

Hopefully these players should now feel they're playing for their futures though. And I'm not talking about your Cans and Lucas', I'm talking about guys like Firmino, Coutinho, Lallana, Clyne etc. Guys who have taken centre stage for 2/3 years now and contributed massively to this idea that we raise our game against good sides and down tools against anyone else. If they're not able to show the sort of consistent form players at our rivals are, then they need to go. We need some flat track bullys, not the other way round. It doesn't work when 75% of our games are against sides we should beat comfortably and the players cant be bothered. Its enough now.

[eyescream]

I'm usually an optimistic preson and usually try to stick to "one game at a time" mentality.

Looking forward to the game and hope the team will show something positive.

[JackWard33]

Going to be tough if Hendo is not available unless Klopp can change the formation from how we have been set up recently.

So what could he do differently?

He could start with the 3 at the back shape we finished with vs Liecester (it generally works well against Arsenal) - play Moreno as the left wing back
He could keep a 4-3-3 type shape but have Milner as one of the midfield 3 and ask him to sit in more than our current two do to help Can and give the midfield more stability.
He could drop Coutinho into midfield to get him in the game more but also to give us more purpose on the ball in midfield
Or he could go to a diamond as at Old Trafford. Play Mane and Firmino upfront, Lallana at the 10. Phil and Wijnaldam (or Milner) on the sides

Any other? Any one like any of the options?

The basic problem is we're bereft of quality in CM in terms of players that can play well there off the ball

[Klippity Klopp]

Going to be tough if Hendo is not available unless Klopp can change the formation from how we have been set up recently.

We don't need to do anything different as our record with Klopp against the top sides in this league is brilliant, that's when we have missed players as well.

It is against the weaker sides in the league where we need to think about doing something differently, not this match IMO.

[Souness1]

We don't need to do anything different as our record with Klopp against the top sides in this league is brilliant, that's when we have missed players as well.

It is against the weaker sides in the league where we need to think about doing something differently, not this match IMO.

I think the point is that we are very solid in the big games with Hendo at the base of the midfield 3. We only gave Spurs one chance in the whole game and Hendo was a big part of that, he was magnificent. The job he does to shield the two centre backs is something that Can cannot match imo. I think we will need to score two as I do think we will concede. As far as I can remember the only part Hendo hasn't played in the big games is the second half against City and the United game.

[Klippity Klopp]

I think the point is that we are very solid in the big games with Hendo at the base of the midfield 3. We only gave Spurs one chance in the whole game and Hendo was a big part of that, he was magnificent. The job he does to shield the two centre backs is something that Can cannot match imo. I think we will need to score two as I do think we will concede.

Henderson is a loss, no doubt about it.  But I think Can can cover, if the pressing is effective in front of Can it makes his job a lot easier.

I think we'll perform vs Arsenal.  Despite not having Henderson.  It is against the teams outside the top seven where I worry about our application & approach.

There is no reason to change our tactics which have worked so effectively against the top sides.

Is Henderson definitely out then?

[Souness1]

Henderson is a loss, no doubt about it.  But I think Can can cover, if the pressing is effective in front of Can it makes his job a lot easier.

I think we'll perform vs Arsenal.  Despite not having Henderson.  It is against the teams outside the top seven where I worry about our application & approach.

There is no reason to change our tactics which have worked so effectively against the top sides.

Is Henderson definitely out then?

Yeah I agree with you, changing the shape/strategy is completely out of the question simply because it has worked so well and lack of personnel. Can showed against City that he can be trusted tactically but his assured performances have been too few this season, we need a big performance from him on Saturday. To be honest, I haven't seen any confirmation on Hendo, he was listed as a doubt when confirmed to be out the Leicester game so who knows really.

[sms1986]

Is Henderson definitely out then?

Probably but not 100% definite.

[Klippity Klopp]

Yeah I agree with you, changing the shape/strategy is completely out of the question

It's not out of the question, nothing is.  But it would seem foolish to change the system and formation for what has worked so well against the top sides all season.  Can has played in those games as well.

I'm probably Henderson's biggest fan.  But I don't see the logic behind changing the formation due to him not playing.

Against Arsenal we just have to be really aggressive from the start and Can is one of our most aggressive players.  Players like Ozil lack fight and if we play with the right application, like we did vs Spurs I think we should perform well.

Saying that every time Sanchez gets the ball I will worry.   

[Souness1]

It's not out of the question, nothing is.  But it would seem foolish to change the system and formation for what has worked so well against the top sides all season.  Can has played in those games as well.

I'm probably Henderson's biggest fan.  But I don't see the logic behind changing the formation due to him not playing.

Against Arsenal we just have to be really aggressive from the start and Can is one of our most aggressive players.  Players like Ozil lack fight and if we play with the right application, like we did vs Spurs I think we should perform well.

Saying that every time Sanchez gets the ball I will worry.   

And the likelihood is Wenger won't change how Arsenal play to stifle us, he is arguably the most pro-active manager in the premier league and his methods don't change despite the opposition. Obviously this should play into our hands as there should be space to exploit across the pitch.

[JackWard33]

And the likelihood is Wenger won't change how Arsenal play to stifle us, he is arguably the most pro-active manager in the premier league and his methods don't change despite the opposition. Obviously this should play into our hands as there should be space to exploit across the pitch.

If the 'space on the pitch' is in front of our back 4 and behind our midfield its going to be a problem.
It should be a good open game - but its one eyed to suggest that only helps us.

Having posted about Henderson I think you can actually make a case that Lovren's fitness is more important in this one. He allows us to play a higher line more comfortably

[Souness1]

If the 'space on the pitch' is in front of our back 4 and behind our midfield its going to be a problem.
It should be a good open game - but its one eyed to suggest that only helps us.

Having posted about Henderson I think you can actually make a case that Lovren's fitness is more important in this one. He allows us to play a higher line more comfortably

Absolutely, I mentioned in couple of previous posts that I think Arsenal will cause us problems. We will have to score at least two to win imo, like you said it will be an open game.

[Jim Pooley]

Coutinho on triple-cap in the old Fantasia Football this week.  We'll trounce them 5-4.

[pezzzer]

Anyone know the stats for how many of the top six clashes we've won/drawn this year involved Henderson? If he's out I'm dreading this as he's crucial to how we play and compete.

[killer-heels]

We have to win to get this crap season back on track.

[Upinsmoke]

We have to win to get this crap season back on track.

We got it back on track against Spurs didn't we? Or that was the idea.

A win here whilst nice and certainly makes our weekend enjoyable doesn't mean we will be back on track 

[The North Bank]

Could easily be another 5-1 this, you're very good at overrunning the top teams at home. I totally expect the other Liverpool to turn up.
You game raising so and sos.

[sms1986]

Anyone know the stats for how many of the top six clashes we've won/drawn this year involved Henderson? If he's out I'm dreading this as he's crucial to how we play and compete.

He's only missed two games in the league, against Sunderland and Leicester. We beat Spurs in the League Cup without him, though.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Anyone know the stats for how many of the top six clashes we've won/drawn this year involved Henderson? If he's out I'm dreading this as he's crucial to how we play and compete.

He'd missed one league game all season before Monday. I don't know if people are getting confused with last season when he missed a big period but he was terrible anyway.

[Klippity Klopp]

He'd missed one league game all season before Monday. I don't know if people are getting confused with last season when he missed a big period but he was terrible anyway.

That's clearly not true.

He has always made us a better team.  The stats last season when he played we were far better than when he didn't.

He wasn't at his best, but he wasn't terrible - far from it.

[Red-Dread]

Anyone not arsed want to give up their ticket? Because I'll gladly go and make some noise for 90 minutes. I agree that a win guarantees nothing but it keeps the season alive. Anything less than a win here and I don't see us getting top four. And that means two months of pretty much meaningless football, which is shit.

I feel like people have been brainwashed by certain elements of our fanbase about the 'title race' we've fallen away from this season and anything less is pointless. With one top four finish in eight years why are we turning our nose up at the thought of watching a Jurgen Klopp side in the Champions League? More to the point, didn't we used to turn our nose up at Arsenal fans claiming they'd been in a title race despite falling away by February/March? Newsflash: we weren't even in one this season. So let's at least stay in the top four race until the end. Because what I really can't be arsed with is having absolutely nothing to believe in.

great post and fully agree - also willing to take tickets from the 'not arsed' crew so prevalent on here

let's have supporters in the fukkin ground eh, not entitled 'customers'

[pezzzer]

Thanks for the info chaps Can has been such a massive disappointment that I don't see him as any kind of replacement for Henderson, who really has stepped up this season (and last to some degree)
If Henderson plays we could play them off the park, if not its going to be a tough nite.

Millner and Lucas wouldn't get into a championship defence so Arsenal cld run riot if there on there game.

[Digger2God]

I think this game is a lot more crucial on top of the usual "six-pointer" cliche. We have had a bad start this year, and have been wobbly at best in the last few games. I feel like the season is on the edge at this point -- we could beat Arsenal and have some sort of belief that we can salvage something out of this season and look forward to the next 10 games, or we could lose and the confirm the slide that started at the beginning of the year repeating what happened last year.

If we do lose and the slide continues then that is a hard thing to understand -- yes, it happened last year but that was because we put all our eggs in the Europa basket. But this year, after the start that we have had, going on this horrible and incomprehensible bad run is just hard to believe. We lose this game, and a lot of people will give up on the season.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

That's clearly not true.

He has always made us a better team.  The stats last season when he played we were far better than when he didn't.

He wasn't at his best, but he wasn't terrible - far from it.

He had several terrible performances last season. In part due to his injury, in part because I don't think he's ever really convinced in a flat double pivot.

These win with/without % ratios I've seen knocking about are an absolute waste of time. There's so many factors that can contribute to such a statistic that it's pointless even discussing it.

We've heard it about Matip, Lallana, Coutinho, Mané, basically any good player we've got whose missed a few or more games this season and we've happened to not win a game during that period.

Yes we miss good players when they're unavailable, which is amplified by our lack of squad depth. But them returning hasn't and doesn't magically make us into an unbeatable machine as people like to kid themselves either. I refuse to believe that playing badly or not winning is ever as simple as having one player missing. We won plenty of games of football whenever Luis Suarez, the best player I've seen play for Liverpool, got himself banned. So I'm pretty confident we can win games of football without any of those current players I've just mentioned.

If we have an injury crisis that's a different matter. But we don't. And I don't think we have all season, again as people have kidded themselves about.

[Souness1]

Could easily be another 5-1 this, you're very good at overrunning the top teams at home. I totally expect the other Liverpool to turn up.
You game raising so and sos.

I know a lot of opposition fans don't rate him too highly but Henderson is a massive loss for us if he doesn't make it. Think it will be closer than you think.