Topic: PL: Villa 1 - 2 Liverpool 20' Trezeguet 87' Robbo 90 + 4' Mane

[Prof]

I am happy to assume the vertical lines are drawn perpendicular to the plane of the pitch.  The software they use will have that calibrated into it so I'm not worried about that.

What is an issue though is a bit more difficult to explain...

If we take the offside line that's generated from the defender's knee as a reference line, a vertical plane from that line indicates where every (potentially goal scoring) body part needs to be behind.  If you draw a vertical line on this plane, it needs to be on the offside line at a point that is perpendicular to the relevant body part.

The software they use will calculate the 3D location of this body part to generate the attacking players (onside /offside) line.  You can see how it does this when the initial lines are drawn showing he is onside.  The final line that is drawn is taken from the pitch upwards and the way it is drawn makes you assume it's perpendicular to Fermino's right shoulder, but it isn't. It's the point that's perpendicular to his left knee but doesn't go through his knee. The intercept with the offside line that's perpendicular to his right shoulder would create a line further to the left as you look at it and would show him onside (this was one of the earlier lines they drew).

They should never be drawing a line from the pitch up as the player is the reference point the software uses.

Just  to try to illustrate my point...

The green line intercepts the offside line approximately perpendicular to Fermino's left knee, the blue line his right shoulder. The red line shouldn't be anything to do with his right shoulder anyway, it's just showing his knee is onside.

[na fir dearg]

Noticeable on replay a couple of our lads giving it the "can't hear you now?" salute to the villa shite when Mané gets the winner, especially Virgil, with his tongue out also  singing their allez allez mockery all fucking game, that must have been sweet for the lads

at 3:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUJ-xo2vtRQ Trent giving it the full on 

anyway back to the var discussion, Martin Atkinson eh? 

[12C]

Exactly!

The horizontal line is placed 2 feet from Bobby.  The perspective gives the impression he’s offside. 


A truly dreadful bit of work.  He’s measured it right at first.

Why are they doing this?

Corruption? Of course not, they’re too incompetent for that

Why then? Well it’s clear that they will try to back up the refs decision in every single circumstances.  Rather than using VAR to try to get the right decision, they’re using it to validate the refs decisions. And it’s not helping the refs at all.

I keep using the Walton example from last season to show how they make up shit to protect their profession.
Walton was the ref in the van
Everton’s Pickford comes out dives and touches the ball off the forwards toe they then come together and the forward falls over.
Penalty awarded.
Replays show Pickford  got the ball first. Actually a great piece of work if you actually know the laws of the game.
Walton then says it is still a penalty because Pickford momentum carries him into the forward and prevents him from getting the ball back and scoring.
Think about that. Almost every tackle you see, the guy wins the ball and his momentum prevents  the other player from getting the ball back.
Walton just invented a total load of bollocks to cover the referees arse.

[TravisBickle]

That there should be a turning point yesterday - not in relation to whether we use VAR or not but whether some referees should be allowed to officiate any more.

The one upside of VAR is it exposes the truly incompetent wankers (and the corrupt) from those who might genuinely make mistakes now and then. That should be curtains for the c*nt Atkinson - no ifs no buts, that was cheating in plain sight. Not holding my breath though.

Oh, and up the fucking red men. Absolute magnificent bastards every single one of them.

[RedForeverTT]

Mane had dived to score that header according to Pep

[thaddeus]

Just  to try to illustrate my point...

The green line intercepts the offside line approximately perpendicular to Fermino's left knee, the blue line his right shoulder. The red line shouldn't be anything to do with his right shoulder anyway, it's just showing his knee is onside.

Great explanation!

It's amusing in a way that the software is so advanced that it adjusts the vertical lines to be perpendicular to the plane of the pitch, but the person using it is so dim witted that they treat Firmino as a 2D object.

It would be less amusing if we'd lost 1-0.

[JC the Messiah]

If that is the 'rule', i.e. any body part may be offside irrespective of where the feet are, therein lies the problem.  Compounded on this occasion with the incorrect alignment of the 'lines' on the graphical representation.

No, you're not interpreting the rule incorrectly.

It's the furthest forward party of the body that can be used to score a goal. So basically, not the arms.

They certainly got it wrong, but not by misinterpreting where his feet were.

[Crosby Nick]

Divock would have tapped that in if needed. Almost wish he had to keep ion his insane record of only scoring late and/or vital goals!

[Mister Flip Flop]

Fuck off City

[Learpholl]

What are you on about? Bobby's feet don't come in to the equation.  The PL have said it was his armpit that was offside, not his feet.  His feet could be 6 feet in the air, vertically aligned with his head, if they're not in front of the defender it doesn't matter one jot. 

What I meant is that they are using his feet to locate his position on the pitch on a 2D image. I wasn't saying his feet were offside.

Dale Johnson, who is a good source of VAR and referring knowledge explains what I meant

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191045286589878272

Follow up on 'centre of gravity' line

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191047408152727554

[TepidT2O]

That explanation he gives is Fucking  nuts.

No wonder they got it wrong.

[Red Beret]

GK's dive there was worthy of Pickford 

[Fordy]

Seriously what a header that is by Mane. No one is really talking about it because timing of goal but to score from there in to the far corner. Great header! World Class player!

[DaveCharlie]

Seriously what a header that is by Mane. No one is really talking about it because timing of goal but to score from there in to the far corner. Great header! World Class player!

And to cop a boot in the face for the privilege too. Incredible.

[Kashinoda]

What I meant is that they are using his feet to locate his position on the pitch on a 2D image. I wasn't saying his feet were offside.

Dale Johnson, who is a good source of VAR and referring knowledge explains what I meant

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191045286589878272

Follow up on 'centre of gravity' line

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191047408152727554

For his foot to be between Mings legs Bobby would have to be a bit of a freak.

[Bobinhood]

Seriously what a header that is by Mane. No one is really talking about it because timing of goal but to score from there in to the far corner. Great header! World Class player!

Seriously, this is the best win in the history of wins because that is impossible. It cant be done, at that angle and speed. Laws of physics, im quite sure. Its a supernatural event.

[ep1987]

The software they use will calculate the 3D location of this body part to generate the attacking players (onside /offside) line.

It seems not.

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191045286589878272

When the body part in question (shoulder) isn't grounded a CoG (centre of gravity) is marked manually using the feet. The software then creates a vertical line from the shoulder and crosses it with a perpendicular one from the CoG to determine it's distance from the goal-line.

I've watched a few videos but have been unable to find a proper explanation of the compete protocol for determining the CoG (which foot, heel or toe etc.) and in any case using a 2D image is never going to be exact.

The absurdity is best explained by what appears to have happened in the Villa game (working backwards):

Firmino's right shoulder has been treated as if it was directly above his left foot (his right foot won't be 100% perpendicular with his right shoulder but it would be far closer).

The VAR has adjudged that Firmino's boot (which could only have been his left) can be seen between Ming's legs after previously having to estimate the CoG based on the belief that his feet were obscured (which is why they re-drew the lines). The role of the replay operator (not a trained referee) is unclear in determining the CoG.

However, based on 1:18 of this video played at 0.25 speed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdFKNBzQ_Ic) Firmino's left foot is clearly off the ground which is important because the software treats the CoG as grounded.

In summary the CoG is a guess which renders the entire process useless for close decisions.

ps. We didn't get to see how Ming's CoG was established.

[keyop]

Some really interesting discussion on VAR in this thread, and I'm sure the league are aware of the controversies with so many ambiguous calls already this season.

However, for me it all comes down to one thing, which is surely one of the main reasons the offside rule was created. Is Firmino gaining an advantage in that passage of play?

If the VAR official uses that simple common sense rule instead of micro-analysing millimetres and milliseconds, (or worrying about overruling another official), then it's a goal every day of the week.

It's a great sequence of football, a great run by Firmino, a great cross, and a great goal. All ruined by the sterile use of technology which ignores both the context of the situation and what's important for the spirit of the game.

[Ziltoid]

https://twitter.com/Realaldo474/status/1191025178945490944

Not seen that, absolutely scandalous. 

Wonder what Dermot has to say on Ref Watch today?  Stick up for his mates like he normally does?  Should have Halsey on seeing he has no affiliation or member of the clique anymore.

[KissThisGuy]

It seems not.

https://twitter.com/DaleJohnsonESPN/status/1191045286589878272

When the body part in question (shoulder) isn't grounded a CoG (centre of gravity) is marked manually using the feet. The software then creates a vertical line from the shoulder and crosses it with a perpendicular one from the CoG to determine it's distance from the goal-line.

I've watched a few videos but have been unable to find a proper explanation of the compete protocol for determining the CoG (which foot, heel or toe etc.) and in any case using a 2D image is never going to be exact.

The absurdity is best explained by what appears to have happened in the Villa game (working backwards):

Firmino's right shoulder has been treated as if it was directly above his left foot (his right foot won't be 100% perpendicular with his right shoulder but it would be far closer).

The VAR has adjudged that Firmino's boot (which could only have been his left) can be seen between Ming's legs after previously having to estimate the CoG based on the belief that his feet were obscured (which is why they re-drew the lines). The role of the replay operator (not a trained referee) is unclear in determining the CoG.

However, based on 1:18 of this video played at 0.25 speed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdFKNBzQ_Ic) Firmino's left foot is clearly off the ground which is important because the software treats the CoG as grounded.

In summary the CoG is a guess which renders the entire process useless for close decisions.

ps. We didn't get to see how Ming's CoG was established.

It looks like they took Mings' reference point from his right toe which is mid air, which would move the line further right than it actually should be. They take Firmino's from his left foot to determine where his right shoulder is, which would move his line further left than it should be. The Dale lad is talking a whole heap of word salad in that tweet to justify it, the fact is they are using points on 2 different planes to determine Firmino's line. The misuse of ''centre of gravity'' is just embarrassing.

[redk84]

VAR is just a tool and one which is not being used correctly at the moment. Needs sorting. The same referees who were bad at their job before VAR are bad at their job using VAR also. Go figure

As for the actual football....this team is relentless. They DID play well and deserve to win I feel. The only area where it was not clicking was in front of goal.....the final ball or pass or passage of play would be lacking and we just couldn't get back into the game until late on. And still had the audacity to go on and win it!

Was so relieved but we must go on a run of games now where we secure the points earlier with less drama. There's a long way to go...

Felt everybody played well. Especially Trent

[NarutoReds]

+ TalkSport: Chris Kamara accuses VAR of cheating to deny Roberto Firmino goal in Liverpool’s win over Aston Villa

Chris Kamara believes VAR cheated to deny Roberto Firmino a goal in Liverpool’s 2-1 win over Aston Villa on Saturday.

Firmino thought he had cancelled out Trezeguet's shock opener after turning home a Sadio Mane cross in the 28th minute.

However, the goal was disallowed by VAR, who adjudged the Brazilian's armpit to be offside.

However, Sky Sports pundit Kamara was still unhappy with VAR's decision to rule out Firmino’s goal.

He told Goals on Sunday: "I'm not happy with it, I’ll be 100 per cent honest with you."

"In my opinion this is made up, this has been made up by somebody at Stockley Park who's
decided they don't want this to be a goal, and that is my opinion, and that is my honest opinion."

"From the naked eye you don't need that calibration of dots or whatever to tell you, look at Tyrone Mings' knee, Firmino is onside, right.


- https://talksport.com/football/624764/chris-kamara-var-roberto-firmino-liverpools-aston-villa/

[redalways]

Atkinson will referee another game at Anfield. We must call him out as a cheat at the next game.

[stockdam]

Atkinson will referee another game at Anfield. We must call him out as a cheat at the next game.

Let's not use the word cheat.......just say that some of his refereeing and VAR decisions have been questionable and not up to the standard required for the Premier League.

[wige]

That is some fucking header btw.

[ScouserAtHeart]

Let's not use the word cheat.......just say that some of his refereeing and VAR decisions have been questionable and not up to the standard required for the Premier League.

the ref-er-eeing and VAR decisions have been questionable and not up to the standard required for the Premier League

Don't see that chant catching on, to be honest

[Legoland]

Let's not use the word cheat.......just say that some of his refereeing and VAR decisions have been questionable and not up to the standard required for the Premier League.

Why?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Atkinson will referee another game at Anfield. We must call him out as a cheat at the next game.

I don't know what it would achieve. I'm loathe to call a ref biased for or against a team - Taylor is a different discussion though.
Every time I've seen Atkinson ref us away from home, he's a homer. At Anfield he isn't. I think it's a bit like the Carra syndrome, in the same way that Carra tries too hard not to come across as biased and goes too far the other way. Atkinson wants to show that he's a great ref and not influenced by "the power of Anfield" so he overcompensates and gives the big calls the other way. His problem is that in doing so, he is actually displaying bias because he is then reffing the occasion and the crowd rather than the events on the pitch. If you can't do that as a ref, you're not fit for purpose.

[Crosby Nick]

I agree on Atkinson. The one time he did something that favoured us away from home was when he sent off Roswell in the Derby. Pretty sure that was him anyway.

[markedasred]

Don't ask where I got hold of this video of Atkinson operating the VAR equipment, just take it at face value:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Agree with many here - this will stick in our craw for awhile especially on the heels of Atkinson's performance at OT.

However, I am really hoping to harness all of our energies into beating the next two blues on the list:

1.  Genk
2.  Man City

*** a little glory headed our way if we can cause some moments of destabilization of our opponents in Europe and EPL.

I really feel like a resounding wins here could propel us for a month -- and what a month its going to be.

GET THE FUCK IN!!!! Go you reds

[Dench57]

The one time he did something that favoured us away from home was when he sent off Roswell in the Derby.

yeah that was weird, very alien behaviour from Atkinson

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

^ There's always an outlier and that was his with us.

[Roblaar]

Although it's not in line with how the system should work, the fact Firmino was flagged offside means I worry less about the VAR decision in this case.  I didn't celebrate it so I didn't feel I'd lost it.

I'm sure it's been posited before I would prefer a linesman's call system.

Give them +/- 40mm or something.  Whatever the on field call is within that zone stays with linesman's decision.  Everyone knows instantly if the goal is going to count or not.  For balls played further from the goal they can still not flag to let play to carry on.  Then they can give the signal later in the move as to whether or not they thought it was offside to establish what the on field call is. 

For goals outside of that zone, it can be overturned by VAR.  Generally regular football watchers can tell if it's a ropey decision or not so will naturally wait to fully celebrate and if it is >40mm out, it's clearly offside.  If a linesman is going to be there, he might as well keep some responsibility for the job he is doing.

If they knew they had a zone, I think they would be more likely to flag earlier in moves as they can be more confident their decision would be upheld and help cut out some of these ridiculous play-ons that occur when everyone already knows its offside.

[newterp]

Flanno is lucky he wasn’t involved in an offside incident in this day and age especially after the state of him post Spurs goal.

[vicar]

It looks like they took Mings' reference point from his right toe which is mid air, which would move the line further right than it actually should be. They take Firmino's from his left foot to determine where his right shoulder is, which would move his line further left than it should be. The Dale lad is talking a whole heap of word salad in that tweet to justify it, the fact is they are using points on 2 different planes to determine Firmino's line. The misuse of ''centre of gravity'' is just embarrassing.

I am glad someone else saw this too.
It makes no sense. You can't work out a CoG from someones foot.

[Hazell]

I agree on Atkinson. The one time he did something that favoured us away from home was when he sent off Roswell in the Derby. Pretty sure that was him anyway.

Yeah, I was surprised by that. The concept of a decision by Martin Atkinson favouring us is Alien to me.

[Dench57]

yeah that was weird, very alien behaviour from Atkinson

Yeah, I was surprised by that. The concept of a decision by Martin Atkinson favouring us is Alien to me.

 

[Hazell]

Shit, didn't see your post. Sorry

[Brain Potter]

I agree on Atkinson. The one time he did something that favoured us away from home was when he sent off Roswell in the Derby. Pretty sure that was him anyway.

I remember the Roswell Incident