Author Topic: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent  (Read 340273 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2920 on: April 13, 2012, 12:45:11 am »
I'll be showing my ignorance here but I haven't followed the moneyball thing at all, I think its about statistics?

This is of is no relevance to the current situation but it reminds me of the tale Graham Taylor occasionally recounts of Watfords rise through the divisions in late 70s/80s. (From memory) He said how some random fan was a statistic buff who'd analyzed from what parts of the pitch goals emanated from. They'd discovered a disproportionate amount came from the corner parts of the pitch and he suggested to to Taylor that he should get the ball there as soon, and as often, as possible. It resulted in Taylor adopting this approach with long quick passes towards the corner of the box and Watford being relatively successful.

Statistics eh? love em!

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Offline Vidocq

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2921 on: April 13, 2012, 12:47:46 am »
I'm surprised I haven't heard anyone say that Cruyff is from a bygone era and is old school, etc...

well, he invented modern football
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Offline macca888

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2922 on: April 13, 2012, 12:48:03 am »
Taylor was a disciple of Charles Hughes and the work of Charles Reep.

Charlie Fucking Cairoli more like.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2923 on: April 13, 2012, 12:50:17 am »
I doubt we could afford Cruyff's ciggy and cigar bill. It would be especially unwise to go for a heavy smoker after we'd sacked all the doctors and replaced them with Home and Bargain buckets and sponges. Go for a non-smoker Tom.
Haven't seen much of him lately? He hasn't smoked in 2 decades. :P

Offline AisoD

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2924 on: April 13, 2012, 12:50:34 am »
That's reading to much into it. If Bruckner and Kenny don't get on then it's fairly straightforward to let Bruckner leave as there's a ready-made replacement in Burgess. That doesn't make Kenny a medical expert - and it doesn't mean Kenny is in charge of the medical care of the players.
I'm not sure that it's as straightforward as you make it out to be. Can you really replace a well respected, visionary (supposedly) doctor in his field with just another doctor? stats have us down as having the best medical record in the PL and Bruckner will be largely responsible for those. I just hope that it's a well thought out decision.

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2925 on: April 13, 2012, 12:51:03 am »
That's actually not a bad example, it's about finding a competitive edge essentially using a formula derived from some form of statistical analysis.

...in baseball.
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Offline macca888

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2926 on: April 13, 2012, 12:52:08 am »
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2927 on: April 13, 2012, 12:52:46 am »
Taylor was a disciple of Charles Hughes and the work of Charles Reep.

I must admit I had to google them but thats what I recall of him talking of his approach to the game.

Offline DanFromMars

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2928 on: April 13, 2012, 12:53:06 am »
Quote from: Tony Barret
Why act now?
Two days before an FA Cup semi-final is spectacularly bad timing to make such a shocking move.

Makes sense to me getting rid of him now rather than later.  Would be more shocking if this sort of thing affected players on the pitch, "backroom staff sacked, starting 11 in tatters"... I don't think so.  So getting shut now is the best idea.

IF Liverpool lost on Saturday then sacking him afterwards would make FSG appear to be making knee jerk reactions when that's clearly not what they're doing.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2929 on: April 13, 2012, 12:53:49 am »
...in baseball.

I'll be showing my ignorance here but I haven't followed the moneyball thing at all, I think its about statistics?

This is of is no relevance to the current situation but it reminds me of the tale Graham Taylor occasionally recounts of Watfords rise through the divisions in late 70s/80s. (From memory) He said how some random fan was a statistic buff who'd analyzed from what parts of the pitch goals emanated from. They'd discovered a disproportionate amount came from the corner parts of the pitch and he suggested to to Taylor that he should get the ball there as soon, and as often, as possible. It resulted in Taylor adopting this approach with long quick passes towards the corner of the box and Watford being relatively successful.

Statistics eh? love em!

The above is a fairly good example of finding a competitive edge essentially using a formula derived from some form of statistical analysis..... in football.

Whether there are still opportunities like the above to exploit is another question.
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Offline AisoD

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2930 on: April 13, 2012, 12:56:16 am »
Can Liverpool ever go through a crisis/drama without one journalist bringing up the "groom Jamie Carragher to be future manager" solution?  :butt

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2931 on: April 13, 2012, 12:58:37 am »
Makes sense to me getting rid of him now rather than later.  Would be more shocking if this sort of thing affected players on the pitch, "backroom staff sacked, starting 11 in tatters"... I don't think so.  So getting shut now is the best idea.

IF Liverpool lost on Saturday then sacking him afterwards would make FSG appear to be making knee jerk reactions when that's clearly not what they're doing.

Agreed. Seems like good timing to me.


Offline Stussy

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2932 on: April 13, 2012, 12:58:54 am »
It's a possibility but to be honest I doubt Henry and Werner have been following the rest of the PL that closely! 

I think they'd be neglecting their duty if they weren't, and Tony Barrett mentions it in his piece just posted now.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2933 on: April 13, 2012, 01:00:35 am »
Makes sense to me getting rid of him now rather than later.  Would be more shocking if this sort of thing affected players on the pitch, "backroom staff sacked, starting 11 in tatters"... I don't think so.  So getting shut now is the best idea.

IF Liverpool lost on Saturday then sacking him afterwards would make FSG appear to be making knee jerk reactions when that's clearly not what they're doing.


Probably been wanting to sack him for ages but we kept bloody losing :)
:D

Offline macca888

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2934 on: April 13, 2012, 01:03:58 am »
Probably been wanting to sack him for ages but we kept bloody losing :)

:D  "Hiya JWH, it's Tom. Thank fuck that big lummox scored in the last minute so we could binbag Kermit Le Frog."
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2935 on: April 13, 2012, 01:04:42 am »
Berigstein (sp) please. Good track record at Barca.

Not too fond of Cruyff or Van Gaal to be honest. Especially not Van Gaal!

Offline Keego05

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2936 on: April 13, 2012, 01:05:16 am »
Hate all this Moneyball bullshit. Football isn't quantifiable, there is just one pure and simple truth: "Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass."
 
A 200-goal a season player wouldn't make the difference in a team that can't pass the ball. It is not a game of individuals like Baseball. 

Football isn't a science, it's an art. 
 

Comolli didn't live up to the high standards of our club. Simply put he isn't Kenny. And there should be no-one second guessing one of the greatest footballing minds to ever grace the game. Benitez would be a great DoF because he can see things Kenny doesn't and vice-versa, not that i'm jumping on the Rafa-for-Director bandwagon, just an observation that if they do bring someone new in they have to have something to offer that Kenny doesn't already give us in spades.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 01:08:23 am by Keego05 »

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2937 on: April 13, 2012, 01:05:54 am »
The above is a fairly good example of finding a competitive edge essentially using a formula derived from some form of statistical analysis..... in football.

Whether there are still opportunities like the above to exploit is another question.

And whether that is "moneyball" is not in question. It isn't.
To the best of my knowledge, no-one at the club has ever said anything about employing a "moneyball" approach at Liverpool. Obviously statistics are used, but Benitez used them too, as did Houllier before him, and, in his own way, every successful manager since the game began. The game is statistics. Played, Won, Drawn, Lost, Goals For and Against, Points. They are all statistics.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2938 on: April 13, 2012, 01:06:20 am »
I'm not sure that it's as straightforward as you make it out to be. Can you really replace a well respected, visionary (supposedly) doctor in his field with just another doctor? stats have us down as having the best medical record in the PL and Bruckner will be largely responsible for those. I just hope that it's a well thought out decision.
I think Brukner never intended to stay here for ever. There's an interview with him from when he first got here somewhere on Rawk. He came to set something up, introduce new methods and so on. Obviously it was felt that he's now done with that, and somebody else can keep it running. Barrett says he didn't get on with Kenny, but that might have been on a personal level, or maybe just the fact that the medical staff seems to have more control over who's available than even the manager.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2939 on: April 13, 2012, 01:08:02 am »
:D  "Hiya JWH, it's Tom. Thank fuck that big lummox scored in the last minute so we could binbag Kermit Le Frog."

:lmao
:D

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2940 on: April 13, 2012, 01:08:35 am »
And whether that is "moneyball" is not in question. It isn't.
To the best of my knowledge, no-one at the club has ever said anything about employing a "moneyball" approach at Liverpool. Obviously statistics are used, but Benitez used them too, as did Houllier before him, and, in his own way, every successful manager since the game began. The game is statistics. Played, Won, Drawn, Lost, Goals For and Against, Points. They are all statistics.

Yeah... you're going to have to help me out here, you're meandering through a response with no real point. What is your point?
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2941 on: April 13, 2012, 01:09:05 am »
I think Brukner never intended to stay here for ever. There's an interview with him from when he first got here somewhere on Rawk. He came to set something up, introduce new methods and so on. Obviously it was felt that he's now done with that, and somebody else can keep it running. Barrett says he didn't get on with Kenny, but that might have been on a personal level, or maybe just the fact that the medical staff seems to have more control over who's available than even the manager.

I think you need to have a bit of tension there, a good doctor is always going to want to take less risks on a player than a good manager will. If they are always in agreement, one of them isn't doing his job properly.
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Offline ziggyy

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2942 on: April 13, 2012, 01:09:19 am »
:D  "Hiya JWH, it's Tom. Thank fuck that big lummox scored in the last minute so we could binbag Kermit Le Frog."

Frog legs, yum:)

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2943 on: April 13, 2012, 01:09:58 am »
Yeah... you're going to have to help me out here, you're meandering through a response with no real point. What is your point?

Sorry, had a couple of jars.

The point is that "moneyball" has nothing to do with football, or with Liverpool FC.
Which is not to say that the club doesn't or shouldn't use statistics. They should. But "statistics" and "moneyball" are not the same thing, however much people on here think that they are.

So people talking about Comolli and a "moneyball approach" are, on the hole, talking out their bum-bums.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 01:11:47 am by Nessy76 »
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Offline AsianRed

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2944 on: April 13, 2012, 01:10:28 am »
No doubting whatsoever that Cruyffs a legend. However, its my understanding that he's also something of a total a-hole whose more or less destroyed the famous Ajax system on ego alone.

Now I get that from a Canadian guy whose heavily involved in youth soccer in Canada, who gets it from people in and around Winter and De Clerk, (Toronto head and associate coaches) who the story goes couldn't bail out of Ajax fast enough when TFC came calling, based on Cruyff, his head games, and the poor future prospects of the club, which they blame on Johann. Therefore, he is not suitable for purpose.

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2945 on: April 13, 2012, 01:12:01 am »
Who is Johan Cruyff? Never heard of him.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2946 on: April 13, 2012, 01:12:30 am »
Sorry, had a couple of jars.

The point is that "moneyball" has nothing to do with football, or with Liverpool FC.

Competitive edge has everything to do with football and LFC, but you're right we haven't adopted any form of moneyball strategy as a club. However the principle of finding an opportunity to exploit something our competitors haven't or are not doing very well, should always be explored and pursued.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2947 on: April 13, 2012, 01:12:43 am »
Who is Johan Cruyff? Never heard of him.

Jordi's dad. Similar, but good at football.
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2948 on: April 13, 2012, 01:15:25 am »
Who is Johan Cruyff? Never heard of him.

Would I be showing my age by asking 'Are you kidding?' or are you doing a spot of fishing?  :o
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2949 on: April 13, 2012, 01:16:26 am »
Who is Johan Cruyff? Never heard of him.

He sells trainees on Crooked Tongues :wave
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2950 on: April 13, 2012, 01:17:07 am »
Fuckin stats  :no

Does anyone as a scout go to a footie match now and go "Fuckin hell, he's good" withour referring to an excel spreadsheet to check his stats

Come to think of it, does anyone even do that as a fan now ?

Too many stats, not enough poetry
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2951 on: April 13, 2012, 01:18:15 am »
Personally I wouldn't mind Rafa back. Rafa 4 director of football.

He made some dud signings himself but left us with a few gems along the way.

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2952 on: April 13, 2012, 01:18:18 am »
Berigstein (sp) please. Good track record at Barca.

Not too fond of Cruyff or Van Gaal to be honest. Especially not Van Gaal!

Van Gaal should be your best choice, he was behind the great Ajax side of the 90's remember and almost led Bayern to a treble in his 1st season there. Begiristain doesn't really have that great of a track record honestly.. Zlatan, Caceres, Chygrynskiy, Keirrison, Hleb et al comes to mind.

Cruyff won't come.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/johan-cruyff-set-to-implement-technical-revolution-at-ajax-7636825.html

Quote
Johan Cruyff, after consultation with Ajax, quit his role as a member of the supervisory board, but will take on a new position at the club where he can carry out his 'technical revolution.'

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2953 on: April 13, 2012, 01:21:15 am »
was just thinking the same  ;D  don't know how many other combo's left to explore, we defo need a nickname

Crufts  ;D
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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2954 on: April 13, 2012, 01:21:51 am »
Timing is probably about right. Anyone new coming in would be starting to decide who to watch/approach for summer transfers.

However thinking about it again, why not do this straight after the January window and give a new person much more time?

Will we now be looking at much better value.......cheaper and less well known players that will increase in value?
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Offline Kochevnik

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2955 on: April 13, 2012, 01:23:28 am »
To be fair though, it would be hypocritical of me not to mention it, because I love to point out just how fucking wasteful and bankrolled Barcelona are, Bergiristain would've been responsible for Hleb, Ibrahimovic, Henrique, Keirrison, Zambrotta, Quaresma, Caceras, Chygrynskiy et al. That's a lot of money wasted that Barcelona could afford to get away with. Although except for Quaresma and Zambrotta, I think all might have been Guardiola's targets? Either way. It's a lot of money up the wall, but you can't argue with the appointments made during that time, nor the timing of them as royhendo's quote from Graham Hunter's book points out. There's also plenty of quality signings in the same time as well. And fuck me they were successful.

I think that's fair.  In my opinion, no manager/director of football is ever going to have more than about 60% of his purchases labeled "successes," at least not among the top clubs.  What Newcastle has done this past summer is about as close as you ever see.  Most of the time even really good managers like Ferguson hits around 50%, and that includes some big money disasters over the years.

That said, there are some truly atrocious deals in that list.  For some reason I thought Begiristain was gone before the Chygrynsky deal went through; that was up there with Andy Carroll in the "awful purchases of all time" list.  Also, that Ibrahimovic/Eto'o swap was a truly shocking piece of business from Barca's point of view as well.

Whoever comes in, I really, really would like to see them continue the one policy of ours that's made sense the past few years - that of aggressively pursuing the best players in the world age 16-18.  That's where we can see some real value, even among British players, even if it won't pay off for several years.  I would love to see us continue going after these types of players under our new DoF.
Managers who have won fewer than three European Cups: Ferguson, Mourinho, Guardiola, Saachi, Hiddink, Hitzfeld, Clough, Happel, Trapattoni, Cruyff, Michels, Lobanovsky, Capello, and many more.
Managers who have won three or more European Cups: Bob Paisley

Offline stockdam

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2956 on: April 13, 2012, 01:23:33 am »
Personally I wouldn't mind Rafa back. Rafa 4 director of football.

He made some dud signings himself but left us with a few gems along the way.



I'd suggest that Rafa would want to manage and be more involved with the first team.......I don't see it working.
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Offline Uruguayan36

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2957 on: April 13, 2012, 01:24:47 am »
After all Liverpool did not lose a lot of money...
The reds sold Torres for $50 millions (too much money for him, imo) and spent $35 millions for Carrol.
Liverpool spent $40 millions for Downing and Henderson, plus seven millions in Adam.
Well...up to here Liverpool spent $62 millions
But Liverpool bought Luis Suarez for $23.5 millions when his price should have been around $35 millions,imo... and also bought Coates for seven millions when his real price should have been around $20 millions(that is the amount paid for Downing and also for Henderson).
So...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 01:26:36 am by Uruguayan36 »

Offline Harinder

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2958 on: April 13, 2012, 01:29:15 am »
After all Liverpool did not lose a lot of money...
The reds sold Torres for $50 millions (too much money for him, imo) and spent $35 millions for Carrol.
Liverpool spent $40 millions for Downing and Henderson, plus seven millions in Adam.
Well...up to here Liverpool spent $62 millions
But Liverpool bought Luis Suarez for $23.5 millions when his price should have been around $35 millions,imo... and also bought Coates for seven millions when his real price should have been around $20 millions(that is the amount paid for Downing and also for Henderson).
So...

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Offline Mouth

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Re: Comolli and Bruckner leave by mutual consent
« Reply #2959 on: April 13, 2012, 01:31:24 am »
Would I be showing my age by asking 'Are you kidding?' or are you doing a spot of fishing?  :o
No, really never heard of him, he was that good?
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