Topic: The Klopp Template

[Gili Gulu]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/iCTiLQk6ST4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/iCTiLQk6ST4</a>

[Egyptian36]

Nah, it goes into a lot of tactical detail and is interesting to read.

I don't know what is interesting about it. It's basically what everyone been saying here

[StevoHimself]

Not that this would ever happen, but if we were to ever play a back-three under Klopp, which of our current CB's do you think would be most adept in the sweeper role? VVD's long-passing is superior to Matip's, but Joel is great at making those runs forward and has played as a DM in the past.

[Agent99]

Sam McGuire
@SamMcGuire90
5:39 pm · 1 Oct 2022
The system being used by Liverpool this season is almost identical to the one NEC went with after they hired Lijnders. I covered it in a piece last week

[Chris~]

Back to Gerrard for manager next. Always knew we could trust him

[Dave McCoy]

It's also the system we used last year except Trent is even more liberated in his role this year. Does Sam have this article for last year as well?

[WoodenHanger]

It's also the system we used last year except Trent is even more liberated in his role this year. Does Sam have this article for last year as well?

I know it'll never happen but I'd love to see a change of system. I'm not sure why we're trying to play the same 433 we've played for 3 years when we no longer have the players to do it. We have no legs in midfield anymore.

I'd love to see us try a 343 at some point with Konate or Gomez coming into a back 3 and take the defensive weight off Trent. Henderson no longer has the legs to cover Trent on that right hand side and Elliot isn't physically the profile I think we need on that side. Moving to a back 3 could really help Trent on that right hand side.

It also means we only need to pick 2 central midfielders which means you can rotate more and mitigate legs falling off.

We won't do this though. We'll play 433 forever.

[FiSh77]

Arf!

Can't even believe the fella's being questioned, I'd give him a chew in the centre circle at half time in the next home game for everything he's done for the club and city, anyone questioning him is either a bad wool or a geg in and can fuck right off

[Johnny Aldridge]

The high line has worked for us and won us trophies, but it’s in need of tweaking because teams have figured it out. There’s too much space in behind and it doesn’t matter about offside if you have 2-3 guys running in from the wings and the centre. With the chaos the dummy runs cause the guy who eventually gets the ball crossed or passed to him is now onside. You just need to attack all that space in behind and this will pay off. The high line also takes the pace out of the attack and packs the midfield and opposition box more, your pushing their players further into their own half.

[killer-heels]

The high line has worked for us and won us trophies, but it’s in need of tweaking because teams have figured it out. There’s too much space in behind and it doesn’t matter about offside if you have 2-3 guys running in from the wings and the centre. With the chaos the dummy runs cause the guy who eventually gets the ball crossed or passed to him is now onside. You just need to attack all that space in behind and this will pay off. The high line also takes the pace out of the attack and packs the midfield and opposition box more, your pushing their players further into their own half.

If we drop the line then the space that our midfielders are struggling to cover becomes even more massive. We then go from looking like a side who at least look very dangerous going forward to one that will have huge gaps and become blunt.

I want us to get back to defensive solidity, my favourite period of Liverpool form was in 2018 when from mid-Autumn to end of December we went through looking really solid with 1 and 2 nil wins and didnt concede a goal in December until that Arsenal 5-1 game.

However if we stifle our attackers then all we will do is continue to draw.

[harleydanger]

The high line has worked for us and won us trophies, but it’s in need of tweaking because teams have figured it out. There’s too much space in behind and it doesn’t matter about offside if you have 2-3 guys running in from the wings and the centre. With the chaos the dummy runs cause the guy who eventually gets the ball crossed or passed to him is now onside. You just need to attack all that space in behind and this will pay off. The high line also takes the pace out of the attack and packs the midfield and opposition box more, your pushing their players further into their own half.

Disagre. The problem I’m seeing at the moment is forwards press the ball, there seems to be a loose man on the next line, meaning they can just pass around us, which is why I think Fab is looking so bad at the moment.

[naYoRHa2b]

We can't keep playing the way we are. We do not have Mane to set the press, we don't have Bobby pressing like he did in his prime. Wijnaldum left, Henderson isn't that player any more.

That press elevated everyone's game, we won the ball back higher, closer to the goal for chance creation, we kept them pinned in. Now when the game is more open you can see the issues. Trent and Fabinho have issues with pace, the amount of times players run past them is unreal. This used to be okay because the team couldn't get out there half and so the ball would find it's way to Fab or to a defender and it would get played back to Trent and we build again but that doesn't happen now.

It's absolute insanity to keep asking these players to play a certain way which they can't do anymore because teams can get out and play through the lines. Klopp speaks about this in his interviews, easy to play against through the lines but nothing changes. So he's aware of it but won't make the changes necessary. Whether that is formation, personnel, or tweaking the system so we have more cover, so the spaces aren't so big between midfield and attack, midfield and defence, play a little deeper and more compact.

[ScouserAtHeart]

At what point does it stop becoming a slump in form

[Funky_Gibbons]

At what point does it stop becoming a slump in form

When we start winning again.

[lionel_messias]

At what point does it stop becoming a slump in form

It's not a slump now I don't think, this squad is in decline.
Key players are not going to get younger and our system of play doesn't work, as is.

Now Klopp can help this but we'll also have to invest in new players and get others
off the books.

[paddysour]

The thing I don't understand about our tactics is that we basically made Trent and Robbo be the creative force in our team because our 3 in midfield (Hendo, Fab, Gini) were much more functional than incisive. Which is absolutely fine we had great balance - Hendo and Gini were disciplined and athletic enough to get out and help the fullback, without exposing Fabinhos weak athleticism in the centre, so he could focus on dominating his zone.

We swapped Thiago for Gini who adds much more penetration. And on the other side we've instructed the 8 to get really high and wide, involved in the attack. But with these changes rather than reign in the fullbacks to keep the balance, we've gone crazy with Trent's positioning. He spends long periods in the number 10 position, there is no 8 to cover him. Meaning Fabinho now looks like he's running in treacle trying to get out and help, which exposes his own zone as well. It's just all rather odd.

I think we tell Trent he is a normal RB now, or we address the balance in midfield again. What we're doing now clearly doesn't work and it's scary that we seem to want to persist with it.

[Asam]

The thing I don't understand about our tactics is that we basically made Trent and Robbo be the creative force in our team because our 3 in midfield (Hendo, Fab, Gini) were much more functional than incisive. Which is absolutely fine we had great balance - Hendo and Gini were disciplined and athletic enough to get out and help the fullback, without exposing Fabinhos weak athleticism in the centre, so he could focus on dominating his zone.

We swapped Thiago for Gini who adds much more penetration. And on the other side we've instructed the 8 to get really high and wide, involved in the attack. But with these changes rather than reign in the fullbacks to keep the balance, we've gone crazy with Trent's positioning. He spends long periods in the number 10 position, there is no 8 to cover him. Meaning Fabinho now looks like he's running in treacle trying to get out and help, which exposes his own zone as well. It's just all rather odd.

I think we tell Trent he is a normal RB now, or we address the balance in midfield again. What we're doing now clearly doesn't work and it's scary that we seem to want to persist with it.

it seems quite egotistical that we’re persisting with something which clearly isn’t working, as boring as it might be for us let’s get back to basics

[Gili Gulu]

It's not a slump now I don't think, this squad is in decline.
Key players are not going to get younger and our system of play doesn't work, as is.

Now Klopp can help this but we'll also have to invest in new players and get others
off the books.

Some players are coming to their natural end of effectiveness such as Bobby, Jordan and James Milner, but others are just plain underperforming. Trent, Robbo, Virgil and Mo.

Fabinho is a bit a mix of the two, he's slowing down and in a more stable team with two younger more mobile midfielders alongside him, and in front of a defence without their own issues, we'd be able to hardly notice if he mastered the required positioning to make up for this reduced mobility.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Like I said yesterday, the system is broken. It doesn't help that individuals are making more mistakes but you can argue that the mistakes are a result of having to deal with more defensive actions too.

Klopp's system utilizes risk vs reward, and at this moment, the reward is definitely not worth the risk and I honestly don't see any benefit from whatever we're doing on the right side.

A couple of seasons ago, City started in a similar manner like us (granted the competition now is more fierce) with 11 points after 7 games, 1 more than Liverpool's current haul. Pep stopped trying to do anything creative, just went to basics. He forgone trying to utilize the wings, packed the middle and made sure that the team is more compact, they pressed less than other seasons and dropped deeper so that they won't tire in a compact schedule. Right now, Klopp needs to be pragmatic and do something similar, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The squad needed reinforcement especially in midfield, but that's the hand that he has been dealt with and you got to adapt. Even the individual mistakes, are compounded by the fact that we have to deal with more defensive actions than past seasons. But if we play with the same naivety, trusting the same broken system, and expect the same results, then that's madness.

https://youtu.be/pisSV1OqPMA

[Redric1970]

The trouble is I believe we have the best manager in the world but we are competing with probably the best team in the world in Man City (4-0 up against Utd not even half time) then you have spurs, Man Utd, arsenal, Chelsea spending £400-£500mil to chase champions league football and we go out and spend £4mil it’s ridiculous if these owners can’t compete with teams financially who aren’t even in the champions league despite record turnover we’re knackered. Jurgens teams are about pressure but we have the oldest midfield in the league they couldn’t keep going the way they were, I honestly can’t believe we let ourselves get in this position.

[ThePoolMan]

Like I said yesterday, the system is broken. It doesn't help that individuals are making more mistakes but you can argue that the mistakes are a result of having to deal with more defensive actions too.

Klopp's system utilizes risk vs reward, and at this moment, the reward is definitely not worth the risk and I honestly don't see any benefit from whatever we're doing on the right side.

A couple of seasons ago, City started in a similar manner like us (granted the competition now is more fierce) with 11 points after 7 games, 1 more than Liverpool's current haul. Pep stopped trying to do anything creative, just went to basics. He forgone trying to utilize the wings, packed the middle and made sure that the team is more compact, they pressed less than other seasons and dropped deeper so that they won't tire in a compact schedule. Right now, Klopp needs to be pragmatic and do something similar, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The squad needed reinforcement especially in midfield, but that's the hand that he has been dealt with and you got to adapt. Even the individual mistakes, are compounded by the fact that we have to deal with more defensive actions than past seasons. But if we play with the same naivety, trusting the same broken system, and expect the same results, then that's madness.

https://youtu.be/pisSV1OqPMA

Good post.

[Knight]

The thing I don't understand about our tactics is that we basically made Trent and Robbo be the creative force in our team because our 3 in midfield (Hendo, Fab, Gini) were much more functional than incisive. Which is absolutely fine we had great balance - Hendo and Gini were disciplined and athletic enough to get out and help the fullback, without exposing Fabinhos weak athleticism in the centre, so he could focus on dominating his zone.

We swapped Thiago for Gini who adds much more penetration. And on the other side we've instructed the 8 to get really high and wide, involved in the attack. But with these changes rather than reign in the fullbacks to keep the balance, we've gone crazy with Trent's positioning. He spends long periods in the number 10 position, there is no 8 to cover him. Meaning Fabinho now looks like he's running in treacle trying to get out and help, which exposes his own zone as well. It's just all rather odd.

I think we tell Trent he is a normal RB now, or we address the balance in midfield again. What we're doing now clearly doesn't work and it's scary that we seem to want to persist with it.

This is bang on I reckon, and a poster who's name I forget was saying a similar thing a few weeks back in a way that got significant pushback, some of it understandable, but the basic point he made was very enlightening to me. We've got more advanced 8s but our fullbacks are just as advanced. In fact, Trent has become a player with a free role. If we're going to put our 8s so high up the pitch, we need to play our fullbacks deeper and narrower.

You then combine this positional and tactical suicide with some significant physical decline. It looks to me like all 3 of our midfielders (those that started yesterday) might have lost something physically. Henderson definitely, Thiago probably, Fabinho maybe. Plus Firmino almost certainly has. This means 4 of our most significant players for the press and the counter press are physically declining.

You combine that with some players being below their normal standards (Van Dijk inexplicably missing routine clearances in the box for instance, or Trent desperately seeking to prove Southgate right that he can't defend).

And finally you've got Klopp making some odd choices. Why is Milner still getting PL minutes? He's a total liability at this point.

Positional/ tactical errors + physically declining players + poor performances/ form from individuals + bad/ odd decisions from Klopp = a nightmare start to the season. Some of these things can be fixed, but not all of them.

[ThePoolMan]

This is bang on I reckon, and a poster who's name I forget was saying a similar thing a few weeks back in a way that got significant pushback, some of it understandable, but the basic point he made was very enlightening to me. We've got more advanced 8s but our fullbacks are just as advanced. In fact, Trent has become a player with a free role. If we're going to put our 8s so high up the pitch, we need to play our fullbacks deeper and narrower.

You then combine this positional and tactical suicide with some significant physical decline. It looks to me like all 3 of our midfielders (those that started yesterday) might have lost something physically. Henderson definitely, Thiago probably, Fabinho maybe. Plus Firmino almost certainly has. This means 4 of our most significant players for the press and the counter press are physically declining.

You combine that with some players being below their normal standards (Van Dijk inexplicably missing routine clearances in the box for instance, or Trent desperately seeking to prove Southgate right that he can't defend).

And finally you've got Klopp making some odd choices. Why is Milner still getting PL minutes? He's a total liability at this point.

Positional/ tactical errors + physically declining players + poor performances/ form from individuals + bad/ odd decisions from Klopp = a nightmare start to the season. Some of these things can be fixed, but not all of them.

The worrying thing is that despite the layoff enforced by the state funeral, these structural issues were not resolved and a more sustainable way of playing was not installed to fix the holes in our system. Why not? What is happening in the club currently?

[Asam]

Is it time for us to consider a back 3? we need to get some defensive stability and clean sheets-

Trent is an ideal right wing back
we have excellent centre back options / Gomez has the pace and mobility to play on the right of a 3, Konate and matip could both play in the centre
we could try Bajectic alongside Fabinho to give us more energy and stability if we’re away from home
Trent can focus on getting his confidence back and doing what he does better than anyone
 

               Alisson

       Gomez.   Matip.    VVD

Trent.   Fabinho.     Thiago.    Tsimakis

                    Diaz
 
            Salah.        Jota

[Schmidt]

This is bang on I reckon, and a poster who's name I forget was saying a similar thing a few weeks back in a way that got significant pushback, some of it understandable, but the basic point he made was very enlightening to me. We've got more advanced 8s but our fullbacks are just as advanced. In fact, Trent has become a player with a free role. If we're going to put our 8s so high up the pitch, we need to play our fullbacks deeper and narrower.

Playing Elliot so high seems personnel driven rather than necessarily how we want to play. Anyone else in that role tries to track back more and plug gaps, but Elliot gets free reign to just play how he wants.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Playing Elliot so high seems personnel driven rather than necessarily how we want to play. Anyone else in that role tries to track back more and plug gaps, but Elliot gets free reign to just play how he wants.

Worked a treat yesterday.

[Fromola]

Like I said yesterday, the system is broken. It doesn't help that individuals are making more mistakes but you can argue that the mistakes are a result of having to deal with more defensive actions too.

Klopp's system utilizes risk vs reward, and at this moment, the reward is definitely not worth the risk and I honestly don't see any benefit from whatever we're doing on the right side.

A couple of seasons ago, City started in a similar manner like us (granted the competition now is more fierce) with 11 points after 7 games, 1 more than Liverpool's current haul. Pep stopped trying to do anything creative, just went to basics. He forgone trying to utilize the wings, packed the middle and made sure that the team is more compact, they pressed less than other seasons and dropped deeper so that they won't tire in a compact schedule. Right now, Klopp needs to be pragmatic and do something similar, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The squad needed reinforcement especially in midfield, but that's the hand that he has been dealt with and you got to adapt. Even the individual mistakes, are compounded by the fact that we have to deal with more defensive actions than past seasons. But if we play with the same naivety, trusting the same broken system, and expect the same results, then that's madness.

https://youtu.be/pisSV1OqPMA

Yep, just become compact again and start grinding results out until the World Cup. Then take it from there.

Alternatively, keep going 1-0 down after 5 minutes every week, be forever chasing games and need your keeper to be MOTM to keep the score down.

Unforgivable to throw that game away yesterday after battling back to 3-2. We were similar at the start of last season (chucked the game away at home to Brighton and at Brentford) and did become more compact when we went on a run after that.

[Schmidt]

Worked a treat yesterday.

Henderson's just back from injury and also on a bit of a decline, I'd still have him in over Elliot but clearly the issue is the lack of signings. If we did sign a midfielder for that role in the summer though, I can't imagine we would've voluntarily gone with an almost out and out attacker like we have been in most matches.

[Eeyore]

The worrying thing is that despite the layoff enforced by the state funeral, these structural issues were not resolved and a more sustainable way of playing was not installed to fix the holes in our system. Why not? What is happening in the club currently?

How is it structural ?

We had Thiago, Hendo, Keita, Jones and Ox who could play the 8 roles in our system.

Thiago and Hendo are just back from injury and the rest are injured.

It is personnel driven. I mean what was wrong with the system when Fab, Thiago and Keita destroyed City in the FA Cup semi final

[Agent99]

Some players are coming to their natural end of effectiveness such as Bobby, Jordan and James Milner, but others are just plain underperforming.

Bobby who has got 5 goals and 3 assists in 6 games?

[Funky_Gibbons]

Henderson's just back from injury and also on a bit of a decline, I'd still have him in over Elliot but clearly the issue is the lack of signings. If we did sign a midfielder for that role in the summer though, I can't imagine we would've voluntarily gone with an almost out and out attacker like we have been in most matches.

We started last season with Elliot in midfield. Like it or not, that’s where Klopp sees him.

[newterp]

We started last season with Elliot in midfield. Like it or not, that’s where Klopp sees him.

He's not quick enough to play forward either.

In basketball - they call him a tweener - in between one position or the other. Often those types of players have to become exceptional to make it.

[sminp]

Personally I think Fabinho and Trent need dropping at this point and I’d also be looking to change formation to a 4231 as I think it’ll help us become more defensively solid and lessen the need for our right back to be so attacking. I also think it would suit Elliot and Carvalho better as well as possibly Nunez. Gomez at right back, a 2 of Hendo and Thiago then Nunez up top with Salah, Firmino and Díaz behind would be interesting to me. There’s plenty of firepower there and I’d hope we’d be more defensively solid.

[mrantarctica]

This is bang on I reckon, and a poster who's name I forget was saying a similar thing a few weeks back in a way that got significant pushback, some of it understandable, but the basic point he made was very enlightening to me. We've got more advanced 8s but our fullbacks are just as advanced. In fact, Trent has become a player with a free role. If we're going to put our 8s so high up the pitch, we need to play our fullbacks deeper and narrower.

You then combine this positional and tactical suicide with some significant physical decline. It looks to me like all 3 of our midfielders (those that started yesterday) might have lost something physically. Henderson definitely, Thiago probably, Fabinho maybe. Plus Firmino almost certainly has. This means 4 of our most significant players for the press and the counter press are physically declining.

You combine that with some players being below their normal standards (Van Dijk inexplicably missing routine clearances in the box for instance, or Trent desperately seeking to prove Southgate right that he can't defend).

And finally you've got Klopp making some odd choices. Why is Milner still getting PL minutes? He's a total liability at this point.

Positional/ tactical errors + physically declining players + poor performances/ form from individuals + bad/ odd decisions from Klopp = a nightmare start to the season. Some of these things can be fixed, but not all of them.

A lot of people said this, including myself.

The issue is that we have incompatible aspects to our play and our identity has somewhat regressed. We are always a team that is more than the sum of its parts. We don't always have the big names in every position, but when we play cohesively we are defensively compact and devastating in attack. We have lost some of those aspects and as a result look vulnerable in all types of defence and somewhat toothless and happy-go-lucky in attack.

I think we should probably reign it in somewhat, become more compact, look to control the tempo of the games by dominating the football, leaving us less to do off the ball. While the loyalty to certain players is commendable, we can't keep rewarding bad form with continued starts when there are alternatives. We need to stick to a more simple game plan that doesn't leave us exposed an unbalanced so often and try to build our confidence again.

[LiamG]

Like I said yesterday, the system is broken. It doesn't help that individuals are making more mistakes but you can argue that the mistakes are a result of having to deal with more defensive actions too.

Klopp's system utilizes risk vs reward, and at this moment, the reward is definitely not worth the risk and I honestly don't see any benefit from whatever we're doing on the right side.

A couple of seasons ago, City started in a similar manner like us (granted the competition now is more fierce) with 11 points after 7 games, 1 more than Liverpool's current haul. Pep stopped trying to do anything creative, just went to basics. He forgone trying to utilize the wings, packed the middle and made sure that the team is more compact, they pressed less than other seasons and dropped deeper so that they won't tire in a compact schedule. Right now, Klopp needs to be pragmatic and do something similar, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. The squad needed reinforcement especially in midfield, but that's the hand that he has been dealt with and you got to adapt. Even the individual mistakes, are compounded by the fact that we have to deal with more defensive actions than past seasons. But if we play with the same naivety, trusting the same broken system, and expect the same results, then that's madness.

https://youtu.be/pisSV1OqPMA

Everyone should watch that great video analysis as well, it's showing how having Trent as an inverted full back is causing us huge problems as well as other structural things letting us down

Pep and Klopp have a difficult decision to make, do they go back to basics or do they continue with the new system they are trying to implement(The same one as peps at NEC which didn't work) and hope that it will come good?

[newterp]

Everyone should watch that great video analysis as well, it's showing how having Trent as an inverted full back is causing us huge problems as well as other structural things letting us down

Pep and Klopp have a difficult decision to make, do they go back to basics or do they continue with the new system they are trying to implement(The same one as peps at NEC which didn't work) and hope that it will come good?

Is this the same system we used last year? Where are the stories about that?

[Mighty_Red]

A lot comes back to pre-season and how we prepared for this season. On the evidence, it was a total failure - we've suffered way too many muscle injuries and the rest don't seem to have the match-fitness and sharpness to cope with games. We used to have the problem of tiring in the 2nd half of games as we'd expended too much energy. Now we don't even start with any energy.

One alarming aspect is that we are not just getting done on transitions, Brighton played through us even with plenty of cover, we just didn't position ourselves right and react.

I do believe that Pep and Jurgen have to fit the tactics and strategy around the players we have available in their present condition. Asking them to do things we know they cannot currently do will keep giving us the same results.

[newterp]

A very well reasoned thread from Mo Chatra:

https://twitter.com/MoChatra/status/1576652385388142594

Not a great read. But maybe it's obvious anyway.

[Knight]

A very well reasoned thread from Mo Chatra:

https://twitter.com/MoChatra/status/1576652385388142594

Not a great read. But maybe it's obvious anyway.

Hope lots read this because I’d be interested to see the counter arguments, because plenty are pretty derisory about the ‘our net spend is very low’ arguments.

[El Lobo]

‘You don’t believe me? Well look what this wrestling reporter has said on Twitter!’