Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440685 times)

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #240 on: September 5, 2018, 09:39:09 pm »
I don’t agree.

Only being in government will stop the rot..  they will be fully exposed then.  Nothing else will bring labour back to sanity and competence
the problem with the GE option is that theyd try to convince people that they’d get a better Brexit deal when the latest polling is showing 60-40 remain now (especially the core labour vote who’s always been pro remain) as people are realising a good/better deal isn’t possible and as much as labour push their ‘jobs first brexit’ bollocks they won’t get the votes they need to get a majority and a lot of people in the cities are massively fucked off with both of the main parties and how they’ve gone about this the last few years, not to mention their front bench have no experience of doing anything significant or complex so they’re not really going to convince many who voted Tory/Lib Dem last time to vote for them

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #241 on: September 5, 2018, 11:02:20 pm »
because a second referendum that returns remain will probably boost the Tories for taking us off the cliff edge (plus corbyn would actually have to show some leadership and pick a side, and if he tried another half arsed remain campaign he would be fucked as he will get called out on it at the time not after the event, campaign for leave and the young will do to him what they did to the Lib Dem’s after the tuition fees debacle), a disastrous Brexit engineered by the Tories but waved through by labour without any real challenges from the leadership will hurt them massively.
You’re probably right, it’s too late for them. Labour, at the exact moment that they could’ve seized the initiative by being the party of Remain, ended up with a fucking Leaver Brexiteer at the helm. Fucks sake, what a joke.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #242 on: September 5, 2018, 11:19:13 pm »
You’re probably right, it’s too late for them. Labour, at the exact moment that they could’ve seized the initiative by being the party of Remain, ended up with a fucking Leaver Brexiteer at the helm. Fucks sake, what a joke.
literally one of the 10% of the PLP who is a leaver!!!


Offline OOS

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #244 on: September 6, 2018, 07:14:21 am »
https://nicktyrone.com/why-corbyn-is-now-and-has-always-been-a-brexiteer-and-why-that-means-pro-europeans-on-the-left-now-need-to-decide/

But he will nationalise the trains!!!

Gave up on Labour now regarding Brexit. Each passing day no deal Brexit looks stronger while there is no alternative.
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Offline SlowRap

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #245 on: September 6, 2018, 08:37:08 am »
You are very welcome.

I suspect you are unwilling to make the effort since the “MSM narrative” position you took indicates a Trumpian mindset, but you might want to reflect on why people like me, who have financially and personally supported the Labour Party for years, and created a business that used to employ many people in the UK, have decided to leave both the party and the country because of Brexit.
Because New Zealand is a nicer place to live in than the UK, that's the end goal of any ambitious person
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #246 on: September 6, 2018, 10:30:01 am »
I guess Brits weren't queuing around the block to dig for for Queen and country then?

Post-Brexit migrant farm worker visa scheme announced

Quote
UK fruit and vegetable growers will be able to recruit non-EU migrants as seasonal workers after Brexit under a new pilot scheme.

Ministers say the initiative between spring 2019 and December 2020 will help tackle labour shortages during peak production periods.

The visas for up to 2,500 workers a year will last for six months.

Quote
The scheme, which would run during a transition period after the UK leaves the EU, was announced by the Home Office and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

Ministers stressed that the pilot will be closely monitored and could close if there is evidence migrant workers were not returning to their home countries when their visas expire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45429397

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #247 on: September 6, 2018, 10:55:11 am »
RBS warns of no-deal Brexit loss of customers

Quote
The chief executive of Royal Bank of Scotland has warned that the bank may have to shed a number of business customers if there is no Brexit deal.

Ross McEwan said 150 RBS staff had been deployed to Amsterdam to set up a new operation serving the bank's European customers ahead of a no-deal scenario.

He said the bank was "preparing for the worst" and was still awaiting final approval on licences for the operation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-45387687

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #248 on: September 6, 2018, 11:11:40 am »
Re Shaka above about non EU migrant fruit pickers.

Will they be part of any trade deals?

How will they be treated? Some countries will happily round up subsistence farmers, export them to the UK, pay them a pittance and keep any profits from their labour.

I can see this being "exposed" by the press in a few years, just like the cockle pickers scandals ten years ago.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #249 on: September 6, 2018, 12:32:44 pm »
Leave can argue we are leaving the EU, they cant argue we must respect the result of the referendum, the opposite is true, we should not respect the result of the referndum and here's the reason why.


Darren Jones MP
‏Verified account @darrenpjones

One assumes the Secretary of State's reaction to my questioning on the illegal Brexit referendum tells us more than his actual answers to my questions. Barmy

https://twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1037625553371766784
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #250 on: September 6, 2018, 12:58:50 pm »
Allowing the Labour Party to become inextricably linked to anti-semitism for reasons that have nothing to do with the day-to-day concerns of 99% if Labour voters is pretty suicidal. But that hasn’t stopped Corbyn and his followers making it front page news.

Why exactly is it essential that a Labour Party member has to have a special definition of anti-semitism? That’s the issue that is worth taking a stand over but protecting the jobs and future of working people in Britain isn’t?

Can you see why I think Corbyn and his mates have their priorities a little mixed up.

Because Brexit was always going to be a mess and likely to lose support. But (I hope) anti-semitism isn’t an issue where the public are moving towards the views of far too many of Corbyn’s mates.

Just a couple of minor points Hodge it has been suggested the whole point of her outburst was the removal of Corbyn first and foremost,  AS was simply her choice of weapon it seems, when you have the likes of Mandy holding his barbecue to plan Corbyn's removal and a few days later we get one speaker after another feeding the media with AS comments you can hardly point all the blame on Corbyn for having to deal with this blatant agenda led negativity , i am not saying AS isnt a problem i am saying some have jumped on that train not to eradicate AS but to stir as much shit for the leadership of this party and then Berger i can absolve from this she ha salways spoken out about this matter however many voices have suddenly realised there is a problem and used it for their own benefit.

As for the NEC have to say even though as the leader i will support corbyn the lack of different voices on these committee's bothers me it is not representative of a broad church and likely to become simply a Momentum echo chamber, i can see nothing will be opposed so long as it fits the Momentum Ideology and for me that is a worry and an erosion of democracy within the party.

As for Europe if Corbyn doesnt see the need to change the labour approach then somebody needs to force him to change perhaps the unions can put pressure on the leadership as well as this change in public opinion.

One final point i keep reading supporters of Corbyn must be in a cult is that not been the case for the labour party for decades were supporters of Miliband a cult, (Not sure) certainly supporters of Kinnock were in a cult and the supporters of the  main man Blair were certainly in a cult and some are still in it.
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #251 on: September 6, 2018, 02:48:06 pm »
Nobody wants it to happen so it wont happen. Nadine Dorries. Tory MP leave nutter who asked how does the Customs union work on Twitter months after the result of the Referendum.
She's refusing to accept the realty of a no deal and the NI border. pathetic.
https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1037302961469308928
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #252 on: September 6, 2018, 03:01:00 pm »
Geoff - I don’t have time to respond in full but will try later. Just to say that if we drew a load of Venn diagrams there would be a set of MPs and Labour Party members that want to get rid of Corbyn who are also Jewish. There are a lot of Jewish people who find anti-semitism to be a real issue in the Labour Party who aren’t in the first set. When people raise the concerns of the second set it doesn’t help to point to the first set. As you know I work with the Jewish Museum and among the people I speak to and deal with their is real dismay at the way their concerns are dismissed as another ‘Zionist Plot’ against Corbyn.

By the same token I don’t think the set of ‘Corbynite nutters’ contains all of the people who believe Corbyn is the right man to lead the party.



For the record, I don’t think Blair ever had the cult of personality that Corbyn does. Certainly not to the levels of fervour that we see online today.


I’ll respond in full later.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #253 on: September 6, 2018, 03:31:39 pm »
Nobody wants it to happen so it wont happen. Nadine Dorries. Tory MP leave nutter who asked how does the Customs union work on Twitter months after the result of the Referendum.
She's refusing to accept the realty of a no deal and the NI border. pathetic.
https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1037302961469308928

A lot of the same 'thinking' as led to Universal Credit in there too. 'Technology will solve it easily'. Uhuh. 'No-one will lose out'. Uhuh.

According to David Henig (ex trade negotiator), he did go round and ask relevant industries about technology as a solution and they gave him the 'maybe in a decade' timeframe for it even being something worth considering.
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Online oldfordie

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #254 on: September 6, 2018, 03:48:05 pm »
A lot of the same 'thinking' as led to Universal Credit in there too. 'Technology will solve it easily'. Uhuh. 'No-one will lose out'. Uhuh.

According to David Henig (ex trade negotiator), he did go round and ask relevant industries about technology as a solution and they gave him the 'maybe in a decade' timeframe for it even being something worth considering.
I don't see how it can work in a decade to be honest, it's about checking to see if people are smuggling etc, how will technology solve this. I maybe wrong of course but as you say any technology that may solve the problem will take 10yrs to develop.
 Kate Hoey or Gizela Stuart tried to make the same argument last year and she was destroyed, trying to claim technology is used all around the world to prevent hard borders, NO it isn't, not one border in the world uses technology to get rid of a hard border, they have no arguments to fall back on so they resort to lies and throwing mud.
What a awful presenter though,why didn't she allow the debate to continue and we would have seen Dorries take a right mauling. she butted in and asks her if she doesn't believe in Mays Chequers plan and stopped her getting destroyed on a very big issue.
Dorries will toddle off and make the same argument elsewhere no doubt.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2018, 03:51:31 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #255 on: September 6, 2018, 04:14:42 pm »
I don't see how it can work in a decade to be honest, it's about checking to see if people are smuggling etc, how will technology solve this. I maybe wrong of course but as you say any technology that may solve the problem will take 10yrs to develop.
 Kate Hoey or Gizela Stuart tried to make the same argument last year and she was destroyed, trying to claim technology is used all around the world to prevent hard borders, NO it isn't, not one border in the world uses technology to get rid of a hard border, they have no arguments to fall back on so they resort to lies and throwing mud.
What a awful presenter though,why didn't she allow the debate to continue and we would have seen Dorries take a right mauling. she butted in and asks her if she doesn't believe in Mays Chequers plan and stopped her getting destroyed on a very big issue.
Dorries will toddle off and make the same argument elsewhere no doubt.

Think if something is 'come back in 10 years and we'll have another talk', it's definitely punting it into the long grass. :)

Thing with the border as a barrier to trade is that it's just one part of the problem. eg Do we really want to introduce different classes of citizens, who all have different rights, into Northern Ireland? Privileging one passport over another in communities which remember when even your name could influence how the state interacted with you?

Wouldn't expect Dorries to even have begun to figure that out though. It's not like she lacks the opportunity to get to grips with it - it's House of Commons researchers who are producing books (free) on the subject, so it's not like the information isn't there for her to go and sit down with.

Hoey was doing the same thing yesterday. "It's all blown out of proportion." Which I suppose is one way of avoiding having to face up to the consequences of what you're proposing. Heyho. Brexit.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #256 on: September 6, 2018, 04:19:56 pm »
The Treasury is telling departments to look to cut costs before asking for more money to deal with Brexit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45410344

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #257 on: September 6, 2018, 05:04:50 pm »
Think if something is 'come back in 10 years and we'll have another talk', it's definitely punting it into the long grass. :)

Thing with the border as a barrier to trade is that it's just one part of the problem. eg Do we really want to introduce different classes of citizens, who all have different rights, into Northern Ireland? Privileging one passport over another in communities which remember when even your name could influence how the state interacted with you?

Wouldn't expect Dorries to even have begun to figure that out though. It's not like she lacks the opportunity to get to grips with it - it's House of Commons researchers who are producing books (free) on the subject, so it's not like the information isn't there for her to go and sit down with.

Hoey was doing the same thing yesterday. "It's all blown out of proportion." Which I suppose is one way of avoiding having to face up to the consequences of what you're proposing. Heyho. Brexit.
Well facts are boring, facts squash you're arguments so it's better to pretend you're making a genuine point rather than admit you have no answers, I noticed Dorries made no acknowledgment to Chukkas WTO point. how she can't keep blaming people for using the NI border to thwart Brexit when the WTO will insist on a border if we have no trade deal to protect the integrity of the WTO market, so much for Sovereignty and taking back control.
The media have been atrocious over the last 2 yrs, wouldn't you think they could call on a few independent trade negotiators who know EU rules inside out to check out some of the claims leave and remain make.
Hoey or whoever argue technology is used on other borders around the world. a correction appears at the bottom of the screen saying, we asked experts if this is correct and they told us technology is not used on any border in the world to prevent a hard border.
They have been allowed to tell the same lies on a daily basis without being corrected by experts, it's not as if were talking opinions here,we are talking facts.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #258 on: September 6, 2018, 06:42:16 pm »
Nobody wants it to happen so it wont happen. Nadine Dorries. Tory MP leave nutter who asked how does the Customs union work on Twitter months after the result of the Referendum.
She's refusing to accept the realty of a no deal and the NI border. pathetic.
https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1037302961469308928

Worryingly I'm looking at moving house into her constituency. Just looked and apart from a brief Liberal blip in the 1920s, it's been staunchly Tory for 100 years. Something to campaign against I suppose.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #259 on: September 6, 2018, 06:55:43 pm »
Just to contrast with the wingnuts of two political parties, Daniel Hannan is spotting the danger that 'no deal' could turn into 'no Brexit' and so pushing EFTA as the solution. There's a point there, buried just below his desire as to paint himself as the voice of moderation.

Spoiler
Quote
It’s the tetchiness that’s so odd: the frenzied language, the talk of “catastrophe” and “betrayal”, the blackguarding of opponents. Twenty-six months after the referendum, why is everyone still so bloody angry?

I get why Remainers were initially cross. The result must have come as a shock and, in its aftermath, there was too little effort to reach out to what was, after all, nearly half the electorate. But I’d never have predicted that, more than two years on, people would be actively hoping for bad economic news, egging on Brussels to toughen its position, gleefully predicting an embargo – including the denial of flight landing slots – beyond anything the EU would impose against Russia or Iran.

Even harder to explain is the grumpiness of many of my fellow Leavers. We won, for Heaven’s sake. Whatever happens next, EU laws will no longer have precedence over our own. We shall again get to decide our agriculture, fisheries, immigration, taxation, regional policy and the rest. Yet people continue to rage about treachery and defeat and national humiliation as though nothing had changed. For decades, we Eurosceptics, in Galadriel’s haunting phrase, “fought the long defeat”; it has apparently made some of us unable to accept victory.

Let me make an observation that, were it not for the current fevered mood, might seem obvious. Every potential outcome has some drawbacks. Chequers has drawbacks, the EEA has drawbacks, leaving with no deal has drawbacks – just as staying in the EU would have drawbacks. I believe that the first three options are all better than the fourth, but none of them is perfect. Perfection doesn’t exist in politics.

It is right to discuss which option would bring the greatest benefits and the fewest disadvantages. But the really benign change has already happened. The European Communities Act has been repealed. The next general election will be the first since June 1970 that returns a wholly sovereign Parliament.

Next to that epochal victory, everything else is detail. I don’t say that everything else is unimportant. The degree to which we align our specifications with our trading partners’, the terms on which EU nationals can take up jobs here, the European programmes we continue to support, the extent to which UK and EU regulators recognise each other’s standards – all these things matter. But they are primarily questions of procedure rather than principle. The decision of principle was made when we voted to recover our independence.

So why are people seizing on rules of origin and customs mechanisms as life-and-death battles? Why do MPs who, two years ago, couldn’t have told you what Euratom did, or how equivalence in financial regulation differed from passporting, now regard these things as tests of their patriotism? Why is every clod of mud contested like some piece of No-Man’s-Land in 1916?

“Morality binds and blinds”, the brilliant psychologist Jonathan Haidt teaches us – it binds us to “our” team, and blinds us both to our side’s faults and the other’s virtues. In the aftermath of the 2016 poll, ideas that would otherwise have been wholly uncontroversial were automatically rejected because they emanated from the other side. Tribalism replaced empiricism. Instead of assessing new proposals on their merits, people on both sides began to virtue-signal to their own teams by taking up harder and harder positions.

Plainly, the Chequers proposal has flaws, as even its lonely supporters admit. Their argument is not that it is a perfect arrangement, simply that it’s the best way to square the referendum result with the numbers in Parliament while getting a decent deal for Britain. But, in the current absolutist mood, no one wants to listen to a “faute de mieux” argument.

Precisely the same is true of the EEA proposal eloquently put forward on this page by George Trefgarne on Tuesday. George is emphatically not claiming that the EEA is perfect. All he is arguing is that, given the other options, it is the best way to ease our transition to a better long-term future.

Now it’s legitimate to argue that, on balance, leaving with no deal is better than either of these options. As I have written on this site, the costs of a complete rupture have been absurdly exaggerated. But, whatever view you take, the question is fairly technical. Does regulatory autonomy in physical goods outweigh preferential exports to the EU? That should be an issue that is primarily of interest to trade specialists, not one to be fought over as if the soul of Britain were at stake.

For the avoidance of doubt, I want there to be a deal. I argued before, during and after the campaign for a Swiss-style arrangement (to the evident confusion of many Remainers, who keep quoting my articles and interviews as evidence that I have either lied or changed my view). Again, people might prefer a different option. Fine. They might argue that the moment has passed for a Swiss deal. Fine. But to dismiss EFTA as “not really leaving” is preposterous. EFTA – whether in its Swiss or Norwegian variations – would represent a return to the status quo ante. It was the outcome favoured by Hugh Gaitskell, Enoch Powell, Peter Shore, Teddy Taylor and the other Eurosceptic Long Marchers. It was supported for years by UKIP. The only occasion during the campaign when I shared a platform with Nigel Frottage, he went further than I have ever done in singing the praises of the EEA (“Wouldn’t it be awful to be like Norway? Wouldn’t it be awful to be rich?” Etc etc.)

What has changed? A Tory MP friend, a Remainer, offers me a grim explanation. “In every revolution, the original leaders are trampled over by the hardliners who came late to the party. Read Hillary Mantel’s A Place of Greater Safety. It’s all in there.”

Mantel’s book is a lengthy, semi-fictionalised account of the French Revolution, told through the lives of Camille Desmoulins, Georges-Jacques Danton and Maximilien Robespierre – three revolutionaries who end up being guillotined. My MP friend undeniably has a point about the authors of revolutions. Michael Collins ended up with a bullet in his head in County Cork. Alexander Kerensky had to flee Petrograd in a Renault borrowed from the American embassy.

But is Brexit truly a revolution? Is that honestly the best way to describe a return to the system that prevailed, certainly before 1973, and arguably up to the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993? Objectively, Brexit should simply mean a gradual reorientation of our trade back to its natural global patterns; a stepping aside while our neighbours deepen their political integration. But there is no denying it: the present heated rhetoric makes it seem much more like a revolution than a restoration.

So let me, once again, make a few statements that might, in calmer times, seem obvious. First, it is better to have friendly relations with our neighbours than not to. Second, a 52-48 vote is a mandate for an orderly and phased recovery of powers, not for a total rupture. Third, accepting some common standards for reasons of economy of scale, especially when those standards are largely set at global level, is not a betrayal of anything. Fourth, EFTA countries are not in the EU. Fifth, ending the direct effect of EU law in this country will set Britain on a different trajectory: that is the big win, almost regardless of what else happens. The only way to reverse it would be to reverse Brexit altogether – a danger that has to be acknowledged.

It may be, of course, that the EU won’t accept any proposal for an amicable withdrawal. There are plainly some officials in Brussels (though fewer in the 27 capitals) who would rather see all sides suffer than watch a post-EU Britain succeed. If the EU insists on offering Carthaginian terms, we shall have no option but to leave without a deal; that possibility shouldn’t scare us.

But the idea that we should want a deep friendship with our closest neighbours ought to be utterly uncontroversial. How sad that that needs saying. Come: a little more British phlegm from all sides, please.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #260 on: September 6, 2018, 07:42:08 pm »
Just to contrast with the wingnuts of two political parties, Daniel Hannan is spotting the danger that 'no deal' could turn into 'no Brexit' and so pushing EFTA as the solution. There's a point there, buried just below his desire as to paint himself as the voice of moderation.

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He doesn't half talk some bollox. weird argument he makes about Frottage and Norway as he made the exact same arguments so why is he surprised at remain voters anger, the answer is obvious, they've reneged on the Norway option, "nobody voted to stay in the single market and the customs union," that's why people are angry. if he want's to put that option back on the table then he's a bit late isn't he, should have been arguing for it over a year ago.
He deleted loads of his prediction tweets on what would happen if we left the EU, how the rest of Europe would tumble after they held elections, deleted many outrageous predictions that never happened,  I edited the article below he wrote in 2016. claiming terms would be agreed easily once the EU got over the shock of us leaving, now he is claiming the EU are trying to punish us, people against Brexit are gloating and egging the EU on, make you're mind up Dan ,Dan, Dan, Daaaan :)


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Dan Hannon’s Delusional 2016 Article on Brexit
Posted on 30-Nov-2017   by cabalamat

In 2016 Tory Brexiteer MEP Dan Hannan wrote an article about what Britain would be like in 2025 after Brexit. It’s seriously delusional, as Hannan must realise, as he has since deleted it. It was at the URL http://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit and archived at https://archive.fo/CDBFf.
Here it is preserved for posterity:

It’s 24 June, 2025, and Britain is marking its annual Independence Day celebration. As the fireworks stream through the summer sky, still not quite dark, we wonder why it took us so long to leave. The years that followed the 2016 referendum didn’t just reinvigorate our economy, our democracy and our liberty. They improved relations with our neighbours.

The United Kingdom is now the region’s foremost knowledge-based economy. We lead the world in biotech, law, education, the audio-visual sector, financial services and software. New industries, from 3D printing to driverless cars, have sprung up around the country. Older industries, too, have revived as energy prices have fallen back to global levels: steel, cement, paper, plastics and ceramics producers have become competitive again.

The EU, meanwhile, continues to turn inwards, clinging to its dream of political amalgamation as the euro and migration crises worsen. Its population is ageing, its share of world GDP shrinking and its peoples protesting. “We have the most comprehensive workers’ rights in the world”, complains Jean-Claude Juncker, who has recently begun in his second term as President of the European Federation, “but we have fewer and fewer workers”.
The last thing most EU leaders wanted, once the shock had worn off, was a protracted argument with the United Kingdom which, on the day it left, became their single biggest market. Terms were agreed easily enough. Britain withdrew from the EU’s political structures and institutions, but kept its tariff-free arrangements in place. The rights of EU nationals living in the UK were confirmed, and various reciprocal deals on healthcare and the like remained. For the sake of administrative convenience, Brexit took effect formally on 1 July 2019, to coincide with the mandates of a new European Parliament and Commission.
During the first 12 months after the vote, Britain confirmed with the various countries that have trade deals with the EU that the same deals would continue.   :lmao It also used that time to agree much more liberal terms with those states which had run up against EU protectionism, including India, China and Australia. These new treaties came into effect shortly after independence. Britain, like the EFTA countries, now combines global free trade with full participation in EU markets. >:(
Our universities are flourishing,   :lmao   taking the world’s brightest students and, where appropriate, charging accordingly. Their revenues, in consequence, are rising, while they continue to collaborate with research centres in Europe and around the world.
The number of student visas granted each year is decided by MPs who, now that they no longer need to worry about unlimited EU migration, can afford to take a long-term view. Parliament sets the number of work permits, the number of refugee places and the terms of family reunification. A points-based immigration system invites the world’s top talent; and the consequent sense of having had to win a place competitively means that new settlers arrive with commensurate pride and patriotism

Unsurprisingly, several other European countries have opted to copy Britain’s deal with the EU, based as it is upon a common market rather than a common government. Some of these countries were drawn from EFTA (Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are all bringing their arrangements into line with ours). Some came from further afield (Serbia, Turkey, Ukraine). Some followed us out of the EU (Denmark, Ireland, the Netherlands

So what is Hannan actually saying here, he is saying all the other EU countries will follow us out the EU when they see us prosper after the EU give in to all our demands.
Spot on,we've been making the same point for 2 yrs,the EU know this as well so they will not give in to our demands.
Daniel Hannan is a Conservative MEP and author of Why Vote Leave published by Head of Zeus
https://cabalamat.wordpress.com/2017/11/30/dan-hannons-delusional-2016-article-on-brexit/
« Last Edit: September 6, 2018, 07:50:09 pm by oldfordie »
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline Robinred

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #261 on: September 6, 2018, 07:42:36 pm »
Just to contrast with the wingnuts of two political parties, Daniel Hannan is spotting the danger that 'no deal' could turn into 'no Brexit' and so pushing EFTA as the solution. There's a point there, buried just below his desire as to paint himself as the voice of moderation.

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There are very few Brexiters who wind me up to the extent that loathsome bellend does.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #262 on: September 6, 2018, 08:13:59 pm »
Oh not holding up Hannan as anything but a marker for how the discussion is going on Planet Brexit. Only reason I dip into Tory Home is to try and see where other points of view are coming from. Thing with what Hannan is saying there is that it's a variation on a theme for what people like Gove (quietly) are pushing from within government. A compromising of the red lines to ensure Brexit happens rather than implodes.
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #263 on: September 6, 2018, 08:54:37 pm »
Oh not holding up Hannan as anything but a marker for how the discussion is going on Planet Brexit. Only reason I dip into Tory Home is to try and see where other points of view are coming from. Thing with what Hannan is saying there is that it's a variation on a theme for what people like Gove (quietly) are pushing from within government. A compromising of the red lines to ensure Brexit happens rather than implodes.
Yeah,its a interesting article. am surprised by the argument he makes on Norway, it's as if he's forgotten whats been said since the referendum result.
 Makes you wonder if they are starting to crap themselves, a leave vote was not supposed to happen. distancing themselves from past statements. why?
I suppose it is possible that we may finish up with a Norwegian type Brexit. seems the logical choice if we have left and cant rejoin the EU. wish we could make the decision while we are still in the EU though as a lot of people will argue it's the only sensible option now but the most sensible option was to remain in the EU.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #264 on: September 6, 2018, 08:58:11 pm »
Because New Zealand is a nicer place to live in than the UK, that's the end goal of any ambitious person

Reasonable point.

Although one thing that appeals to me is that we have a pragmatic and progressive Labour party in government and it is my privilege to be able to help with economic policy. Having been out of power for a long time, and full of great progressive ideas that often don't add up with reality, they are hungry for knowledge and the ministerial discussions are vibrant and healthy, like it was back in 1997 in the UK.

I feel like I'm contributing again, instead of being told to f*ck off out of the party back home by Momentum activists who'd been there a week.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #265 on: September 6, 2018, 09:07:33 pm »
Oh not holding up Hannan as anything but a marker for how the discussion is going on Planet Brexit. Only reason I dip into Tory Home is to try and see where other points of view are coming from. Thing with what Hannan is saying there is that it's a variation on a theme for what people like Gove (quietly) are pushing from within government. A compromising of the red lines to ensure Brexit happens rather than implodes.

Yes, I knew you weren’t blowing smoke up his arse.

He’s a deeply cynical intellectual, a well-educated and well-read example of what is (just) excusable in an under-educated Sunderland car worker through ignorance. Anti-European to his core.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #266 on: September 6, 2018, 11:34:55 pm »
Geoff - I don’t have time to respond in full but will try later. Just to say that if we drew a load of Venn diagrams there would be a set of MPs and Labour Party members that want to get rid of Corbyn who are also Jewish. There are a lot of Jewish people who find anti-semitism to be a real issue in the Labour Party who aren’t in the first set. When people raise the concerns of the second set it doesn’t help to point to the first set. As you know I work with the Jewish Museum and among the people I speak to and deal with their is real dismay at the way their concerns are dismissed as another ‘Zionist Plot’ against Corbyn.

By the same token I don’t think the set of ‘Corbynite nutters’ contains all of the people who believe Corbyn is the right man to lead the party.



For the record, I don’t think Blair ever had the cult of personality that Corbyn does. Certainly not to the levels of fervour that we see online today.


I’ll respond in full later.
No problem Alan you know as well off these board I am against all discrimination and try to include that in appropriate lessons it’s just sometimes I felt certain mp’s be it a few actually do the fight to remove AS a disservice by their use of it to achieve other goals , as for the cult , I support him being the leader of the party I don’t agree with his Brexit policy so I don’t regard myself as in a cult mind you I am quite wary of momentum as well !
Anyway to get back to Brexit won on a fraudulent platform at every level, surely if challenged in court would it’s legality be questionable? I have no time for these Brexit zealots they are pompous detestable people boris, Gove, Davis, Frottage and the odious Rees-Mogg ! I still live in hope that this country will come to its senses and stay in the EU somehow!
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #267 on: September 7, 2018, 01:50:21 am »
No court case required.

Parliament is sovereign. The referendum is not legally binding. MPs could end this in a day by voting to remain in the EU.

The reasons they use to do that are largely irrelevant except the political repercussions would be assuaged by a good reason like a corrupt, externally influenced campaign of lies.

The failure to do so is a failure of political leadership.
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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #268 on: September 7, 2018, 02:15:11 am »
No court case required.

Parliament is sovereign. The referendum is not legally binding. MPs could end this in a day by voting to remain in the EU.

The reasons they use to do that are largely irrelevant except the political repercussions would be assuaged by a good reason like a corrupt, externally influenced campaign of lies.

The failure to do so is a failure of political leadership.
The legal experts no better obviously but we can't forget what Cameron and others have said, Cameron said, we will act on what the public decide. every other politician has argued the same point, we have to implement Brexit because of the result of the referendum.
Any arguments on remaining in the EU because the referendum was advisory are met with scorn and ridicule, leave supporters argue it wasn't advisory Cameron said the Tories would act on a vote to leave.
Leave can't have it both ways here. the vote was either advisory and therefore a choice Parliament could freely make or it was a mandate from the public to leave the EU.
The debates to trigger ART 50 leaves us in no doubt what Parliament thinks.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline stara

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #269 on: September 7, 2018, 07:06:39 am »
Operation Yellowhammer aka HMG's no deal planning from 'internal reprioritisation' aka austerity

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1037661665142206465

Quote
Yellowhammer - An old legend links the yellowhammer to the Devil. Its tongue was supposed to bear a drop of his blood, and the intricate pattern on the eggs was said to carry a concealed, possibly evil, message....how appropriate

So, easiest deal ever and "will of the people" is now considered emergency.
« Last Edit: September 7, 2018, 07:12:47 am by stara »
50+1. Real FFP rules. Now.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #270 on: September 7, 2018, 02:31:49 pm »
Editor of New European says Johnson deeply regrets his decision to back leave.

Matt Kelly
‏Verified account @mk1969

I was told yesterday, by someone who knows him *very well* (but not family) that Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson "deeply regrets" going down the Brexit route and now wishes he'd sent the other letter. "He knows he's fucked up massively. Now he's working out how to get himself out of the mess."
https://twitter.com/mk1969/status/1037712710669135879?s=19

Are these the words of someone who believes we are better off out the EU.

Does Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson remember what he said?

Who knows what Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson really believes, least of all him?

He previously said “what most people in this country want is the single market”, and he would personally vote to remain a member of it.

He told the BBC Andrew Marr Show in 2012: ″We would like a new relationship. And it’s very simple – what most people in this country want is the Single Market, the Common Market.”

In the same year, he told BBC Radio Five Live, “Whether you have an in/out referendum now, I can’t quite see why it would be necessary.”

He added that the prospect of Britain’s withdrawal from the EU would not “appeal”.

Mr Johnson asked, “Suppose Britain voted tomorrow to come out: what would actually happen?”

He continued:

“We’d still have huge numbers of staff trying to monitor what was going on in the community, only we wouldn’t be able to sit in the council of ministers, we wouldn’t have any vote at all. Now I don’t think that’s a prospect that’s likely to appeal.”
In The Telegraph in May 2013, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson wrote that if Britain left the EU, “we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by Bwussels” [sic].

In his article, titled ‘Quitting the EU won’t solve our problems, says Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson,’ he responded that, “the question of EU membership is no longer of key importance to the destiny of this country”.

Mr Johnson added that he supported an EU referendum – but warned that Britain’s problems will not be solved by simply leaving the EU as many of his Conservative colleagues apparently believed.

The then Mayor of London asserted:

“If we left the EU, we would end this sterile debate, and we would have to recognise that most of our problems are not caused by ‘Bwussels’, but by chronic British short-termism, inadequate management, sloth, low skills, a culture of easy gratification and underinvestment in both human and physical capital and infrastructure.”

He added:

“Why are we still, person for person, so much less productive than the Germans? That is now a question more than a century old, and the answer is nothing to do with the EU. In or out of the EU, we must have a clear vision of how we are going to be competitive in a global economy.”
On February 21 2016 – four months before the referendum – Mr Johnson stunned the then Prime Minister, David Cameron, by announcing he was joining the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union.

Winston Churchill’s grandson, Sir Nicholas Soames, immediately Tweeted: “Whatever my great friend Boris decides to do I know that he is NOT an outer.”

Just two weeks previously, Mr Johnson had written in his Telegraph column:

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

Just before deciding to back the Leave campaign, Mr Johnson also penned a pro-Remain column for the Telegraph in which he wrote that Britain’s continued membership of the EU would be a “boon for the world and for Europe”.
ohnson wrote of the EU: “This is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?”

But the column was never published, and a few days later Mr Johnson decided instead to back Brexit.

A spokesman for the ‘Remain’ campaign commented at the time, “Everybody in Westminster knows that Boris doesn’t really believe in Out. He’s putting his personal ambition before the national interest.”

Of course, all this might have a simpler explanation. Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson might have changed his mind.

But if he can change his mind, why won’t he allow the rest of the country to express a change of mind in a new vote?

The latest YouGov polls show that the Leave ship is sinking, with 2,400 Brexiters changing their minds across the UK every day, compared with only about 300 Remainers changing their minds.

Boris, you’re backing the wrong ship. Time to swap sides (again).
https://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2018/02/14/boris-johnson-remember-what-he-said/
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline rob1966

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #271 on: September 7, 2018, 04:03:52 pm »
Most important word there is HIMSELF. His Dad told him he was going to wreck his career if he switched to Leave and he saw that the day of the result

Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #272 on: September 7, 2018, 04:13:27 pm »
Most important word there is HIMSELF. His Dad told him he was going to wreck his career if he switched to Leave and he saw that the day of the result
Typical of Johnsons narcissism, he is now working out how he can get himself out of this mess rather than trying to work out how he can stop the country from making a massive mistake.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #273 on: September 7, 2018, 04:59:49 pm »
Typical of Johnsons narcissism, he is now working out how he can get himself out of this mess rather than trying to work out how he can stop the country from making a massive mistake.

And some people think he would make a credible PM simply because he follows the Mail's and Telegraph's line on Brexit.

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #274 on: September 7, 2018, 05:11:47 pm »
What the hell is this.  We’re not the audience in this guy’s lifestory.  The idea that there might be some kind of redemption narrative for this c*nt is unbelievable.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #275 on: September 7, 2018, 05:21:53 pm »
Typical of Johnsons narcissism, he is now working out how he can get himself out of this mess rather than trying to work out how he can stop the country from making a massive mistake.

He could do both easily. Just say, as millions were, he was duped by the lies and believed what they said. Now that the reality of the exit has become apparent, he no longer believes we should leave the EU and the Government, in the best interests of the people who voted Leave and the rest of the UK, should cancel Brexit until conditions for our exit are more favourable. That should appease a lot of the Leavers - the rampant nutters would rather die than admit it is a fucking stupid idea.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #276 on: September 7, 2018, 06:05:08 pm »
He could do both easily. Just say, as millions were, he was duped by the lies and believed what they said. Now that the reality of the exit has become apparent, he no longer believes we should leave the EU and the Government, in the best interests of the people who voted Leave and the rest of the UK, should cancel Brexit until conditions for our exit are more favourable. That should appease a lot of the Leavers - the rampant nutters would rather die than admit it is a fucking stupid idea.
If he times it right he may get away with it as well, more and more people switching to remain. it's actually the sort of thing Johnson would do if he thought he could get away with it.
We all knew there was going to a s,, storm no matter what happens,
Cancel Brexit and the nutters go Berzerk, a no deal and no withdrawal and the nutty leave will be running for cover. the government have more to fear from the public than the nutty leave. they are a lost cause. they may be a angry but they are still in the minority.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #277 on: September 7, 2018, 08:19:34 pm »
If he times it right he may get away with it as well, more and more people switching to remain. it's actually the sort of thing Johnson would do if he thought he could get away with it.
We all knew there was going to a s,, storm no matter what happens,
Cancel Brexit and the nutters go Berzerk, a no deal and no withdrawal and the nutty leave will be running for cover. the government have more to fear from the public than the nutty leave. they are a lost cause. they may be a angry but they are still in the minority.

He might get away with it and bring Gove with him but will that hand him the keys to number 10 and everything he does is solely aimed at that. Also would the electorate trust him?
Or would the looney EU hating Tories even elect him ?
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline rob1966

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #278 on: September 7, 2018, 08:44:02 pm »
He might get away with it and bring Gove with him but will that hand him the keys to number 10 and everything he does is solely aimed at that. Also would the electorate trust him?
Or would the looney EU hating Tories even elect him ?

If he did do it, he will be able to destroy May, as he could hammer her for blindly following a path she knew was wrong. He could also lay into Ledsham and JRM for the same reasons, it would leave him probably the only viable leader to choose from. To appease the EU haters, he could promise that one day, the result of the referendum will be honoured, but only when the UK is in an ideal position to implement it. They don't have to carry it through, as most of the Leavers will be dead in 5 or 10 years anyway, so they can just let it drift away. He could also attack Corbyn and Labour very heavily, by stating they stood back and were prepared to allow Brexit just to topple the Government.

Spin this right and he could easily win a majority.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

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Re: Brexit.. again - Last try before more dickheads derail it once again
« Reply #279 on: September 7, 2018, 09:03:23 pm »
He might get away with it and bring Gove with him but will that hand him the keys to number 10 and everything he does is solely aimed at that. Also would the electorate trust him?
Or would the looney EU hating Tories even elect him ?
I think he is very worried about keeping his seat at the next GE as well. I doubt he relishes the thought of Brexit bringing on a early election. anything could happen, lose DUP support, no deal. hard Brexit in 2019, we know Johnson will pick what side benefits his career the most. so it's possible he could make a argument on calling off Brexit for now as it's been badly handled. he knows Brexit is a massive mistake and theres no hiding the fallout of a no deal. am sure the Tories are fearing a official call by Labour to extend art 50 and hold another referendum, Johnson may well weigh up this argument as a way in to number 10 if he feels it will restore some credibility and support, especially in his constituency. he wouldn't argue to remain in the EU of course just to unite the country bollox otherwise calls for another referendum will be argued after we leave. am not saying it will happen only something has too, Parliament is full of MPs who know we are heading for a car crash but they supported it and they are now facing realty, maybe wishful thinking I suppose.

It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis