Author Topic: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool  (Read 23446 times)

Offline Not A Scouser

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2013, 12:42:59 am »
People have identified Johnson as a poor defender, who switches off repeatedly, for years.  There are reasons for thinking this, as described by PoP/BoH.  Still, he gets picked to start by every manager, Liverpool and England (is that eight of them?) since he came to Liverpool.  We have also seen how much worse we seem to be when he doesn't play.  Finally, for all his perceived defensive weaknesses (and several other players on the team) there are only three teams who have given up fewer goals than us this year.

It seems to me that Johnson is one of those players that seems not to do much right, but the team he plays for seems to win more with him than without him.  In ice hockey there is a statistic called plus/minus which is simply goal difference when you are playing, with unlimited substitutions from a squad of twenty players play about twenty minutes out of sixty a game.  The players near the top of these lists aren't necessarily the "best players" and sometimes seem quite baffling. Perhaps Johnson does things that don't seem important, have no stat, but are actually important.

I wonder what it is about Johnson that might make him a better player than he appears?  Is he the sort of player to whiom the renowned difficulty with football stats applies?  Does his attacking threat simply negate most attacks down that wing?  Are his mistakes glaring but infrequent?  Does the defensive ability of full backs not matter much any more?

Offline Bobinhood

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2013, 12:48:42 am »



Pretty much demonstrating total mastery of a craft, that sequence. Gorgeous to look at. I love how the one mistake provokes an instant response that ends in a goal.
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Offline slimbo

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2013, 04:31:23 am »

Johnson

If there is one negative to take from the game, it is the performance of one of the more experienced players in Johnson. His performance was not in synch with the efforts of the rest of the team, and indeed could almost be said to be sloppy in inverse proportion to the tidiness of the work of Henderson, for example. Johnson had 47 passes in the game, but only had a 70% accuracy with them. By contrast, Flanagan had less passes at 35, but crucially 89% of his passes reached their target. Johnson also, in 90 minutes, had only 1 tackle in the game – contrast this with Alberto’s 2 tackles in less than a half of football, and given that Spurs attacked mostly through their left side with Chadli, and you can see a pattern of carelessness in Johnson’s play. Even in terms of getting the ball forward, he was ineffective. He attempted 5 long passes, and not a single one reached their destination, while Flanagan attempted 2 long passes with 50% accuracy. It might be tempting to think that as soon as Enrique is fit, Johnson might well be challenged legitimately for his spot by Flanagan. Perhaps a fitter Kelly would be doing the same. Either way, there is a clear drop in Johnson’s performance levels and as churlish as it is to point them out in a resounding 5-0 away victory, it is precisely the nature of that victory that emphasises the shortfall in performance that Johnson exhibited. A team is only as strong as its weakest link, and for so long Johnson was one of the strongest ones. The turnaround in circumstance might give Rodgers pause for thought as we enter the transfer period.

Have to say I don't think these stats for Johnson re keeping possession are isolated. I can't back that up but it's certainly my gut feeling. He does have defencive deficiencies which have been discussed so you would like to think that could be more than compensated with his attacking game. Whilst he does show that at times it is far too infrequent. A lot of those passing stats he is on the sideline and simply makes a back pass, although it could be argued he is also in a tighter position without too many options. What we don't have stats on is where he runs forward with the ball only to be dispossessed or turn over possession with a wayward pass. Happens too often and magnified by the hole he leaves behind him for a counter attack.

Considering the wages he is on and where are trying to go as a team it's simply not good enough.

Offline xbugawugax

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2013, 05:46:02 am »
The sideways and backwards passes allows for the pressing game to be played for longer, though. The Hollywood passes forces us to play more in transition which means we fatigue earlier, which means we can't press as often or as intensely. The fact that we took the sting out of the pace of the game with possession is partly why we were able to still press for the ball and look for a 6th goal in injury time.

Thanks for the wonderful insight POP.  If that is what rodgers mean by resting on the ball and us getting the 6th goal in the 5th minute of extra time in most games then we are definately on the right track! :D

Love your work, PoP.

Let's not get carried away. We still have not reached the midway mark of the season but boy, are we looking devilishly good. We played well against Spurs at WHL and that's great. We now need to carry this form and more importantly, attitude, belief and work rate to the second half of the season. We have 2 big away games and that'll tell how far we've progressed.

The dream for me and everyone else is that we not only secure CL spot but win the league. I mean. why not when we do not know how long Suarez is going to be with us. I'm hoping FSG will realise there is something special brewing hrere and they need to back up BR in the January transfer.

Im looking forward to the away games too mate. But looking forward more to top the league this weekend ;D

All the hard work vs Tottenham will come to naught if we drop points vs cardiff.  Would love to see some consistency and have a straight run of wins too to show that we have progressed as a team. 

How many time have we beaten the big boys but drop points against team that we should beat.  Being a liverpool fan is not good for the heart. :rant

Offline conman

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2013, 08:06:15 am »
It will be interesting to see how we play against Chelsea and more Man City... Can we afford to play on the front foot against Man City, with the players and sharpness they have on the counter attack

Offline stonty

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #85 on: December 19, 2013, 08:40:43 am »
That score-line still looks great don't it ?  :)

Offline Uruguayan36

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #86 on: December 19, 2013, 08:45:56 am »
It will be interesting to see how we play against Chelsea and more Man City... Can we afford to play on the front foot against Man City, with the players and sharpness they have on the counter attack
If Liverpool play the next games the way it played against Spur...I honestly believe that we will defeat City and Chelsea.

But...we have to wait and see if we can repeat it ...

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #87 on: December 19, 2013, 09:08:37 am »
Thank you PoP for that detailed analysis of the game. sometimes I think you might be Rodgers himself or another well known coach :)

Henderson transformed himself to a different level in that game. My complaint of him has always been that he isn't incisive or creative enough. The long passes that found their man and key passes (+goal) show that he is improving with every game, and if he's still improving after 2 years here his ceiling is really high. Anytime he is struggling for confidence he should watch a video of that game. He is undroppable from this team at the current moment in time.

Regarding Johnson, I always find his play is inhibited by the quality of winger/full back he is playing against.  On Sunday, Naughton had a stinker and Chadli didn't make much of an impression so it wasn't that. He has looked sluggish and sloppy in a few games - Hull away being the worst of it. However, in his defence I still think he's a first 11 player in this team because of what he offers going forward. When he's on his game he's a quality attacking full back, who thrives in home games against weaker opposition. I've also noticed he plays well in patches.

PoP, do you believe if that continues it could be to the detriment of the team in future matches?
YWNA

Offline Fluke

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #88 on: December 19, 2013, 09:32:09 am »
Interesting post that.

I will say a couple of things. I don't see why any team would set out to play 'Tiki-Taka' in the Premier League. And Tiki Taka isn't really what teams like Arsenal, Swansea and Man City play by the way. I think you make a good point in terms of the way we played against Tottenham was pretty much how you would prefer to play with this team. When we've had Lucas and Gerrard together in midfield, there's neither the required quality to control the ball if a team presses, nor the ability to control space when we lose it. On Sunday, we were compact, disciplined (which I think is an understated part of our performance against Spurs), coordinated and aggressive. It very much suited us to attack and defend with intensity. And we finally had the balance in midfield

In terms of winning the ball back, the fact the team worked together so well and were compact helped our pressing so much. We played a mid block and didn't really press really high up the pitch but we did make it very difficult for the ball to be played through the middle third. You were asking what the triggers were - it varies but generally sideways passes can be, backwards passes can be, loose passes, player receiving the ball with their back to goal (and also if they try moving with the ball with their back to goal and move into different zones, they may end up being pressured by two or three players), one player pressuring and then the others going as well etc.

For me the main thing to take out of the game was the collectiveness. I'd rather start most games with a collective ability than adding in other players and losing that.
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Offline dumaten

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #89 on: December 19, 2013, 10:03:18 am »
Interesting post that.

I will say a couple of things. I don't see why any team would set out to play 'Tiki-Taka' in the Premier League. And Tiki Taka isn't really what teams like Arsenal, Swansea and Man City play by the way. I think you make a good point in terms of the way we played against Tottenham was pretty much how you would prefer to play with this team. When we've had Lucas and Gerrard together in midfield, there's neither the required quality to control the ball if a team presses, nor the ability to control space when we lose it. On Sunday, we were compact, disciplined (which I think is an understated part of our performance against Spurs), coordinated and aggressive. It very much suited us to attack and defend with intensity. And we finally had the balance in midfield

In terms of winning the ball back, the fact the team worked together so well and were compact helped our pressing so much. We played a mid block and didn't really press really high up the pitch but we did make it very difficult for the ball to be played through the middle third. You were asking what the triggers were - it varies but generally sideways passes can be, backwards passes can be, loose passes, player receiving the ball with their back to goal (and also if they try moving with the ball with their back to goal and move into different zones, they may end up being pressured by two or three players), one player pressuring and then the others going as well etc.

For me the main thing to take out of the game was the collectiveness. I'd rather start most games with a collective ability than adding in other players and losing that.

Good post, agree with this and my biggest problem with the way we've played under Rodgers has been our defending as a team. Too often we've had parts of the team pressing while others stood still or backed off, an inability to spot likely areas of danger and a tendency to panic under pressure and defend as individuals. Apart from against poor teams the only times we'd really looked cohesive defensively were when we sat really deep against Villa and to some extent against Man United, but obviously "shelling" should only be used at specific times. Usually when we'd tried to play a balanced system we've ended up looking open either in front or behind our defence. On sunday we pressed as a team first half, with each player generally being in the right place to continue or take advantage of the press, then at the start of the second half spurs had more posession and we sat deeper, usually choosing only specific moments to push out and swarm the ball carrier. As well as the midfield's role in this I thought our attackers and the left side of our defence also looked in sync with the team as a whole.

Seen some remarks about "oh if spurs had taken that chadli chance things would have been different", but all decent teams, especially at home will have chances at some point. You don't normally expect them to score all of them (unless its Suarez against Norwich), so the number and quality of these chances is very important and we restricted both of these very impressively. After Flanagan scored Tyler said something along the lines of "it's been that sort of day for spurs, off the bar and in" when in reality we'd already hit the post from 2 yards, hit the crossbar and had three one-on-ones saved. At that point spurs had chadli's header, and a couple of shots either under pressure or from wide in the box. In terms of how the game went that's really not much at all.

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #90 on: December 19, 2013, 10:44:02 am »
Fucking gang-mentaility we had then. Closing in on an opponent as soon as he had the ball then attacking him from an angle that's out of his FOV and we didn't let up. Raheem's small stature- in addition to the fact it affords him his "nippiness"- really aids him in nicking the ball off an opponent and that he did time and time again.

With him it would appear to be that the bigger they are, the easier it is to get the ball of them. What's perhaps a bit odd and I don't know if some of you would agree with me, is that I've not seen Swansea under Rodgers press as we did in some games and against - what could be said is our best pressing performance- Tottenham?

Is this a new tactic from Rodgers or has it been there before? I'm certainly not aware of his teams(Swansea and Reading) practising this before.
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Offline Fluke

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #91 on: December 19, 2013, 12:12:10 pm »
Seen some remarks about "oh if spurs had taken that chadli chance things would have been different", but all decent teams, especially at home will have chances at some point. You don't normally expect them to score all of them (unless its Suarez against Norwich), so the number and quality of these chances is very important and we restricted both of these very impressively. After Flanagan scored Tyler said something along the lines of "it's been that sort of day for spurs, off the bar and in" when in reality we'd already hit the post from 2 yards, hit the crossbar and had three one-on-ones saved. At that point spurs had chadli's header, and a couple of shots either under pressure or from wide in the box. In terms of how the game went that's really not much at all.
I've watched the game a few times now and never caught that.  Bit of a ridiculous statement really.
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Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #92 on: December 19, 2013, 12:35:21 pm »
I'd imagine the people saying that are those who just don't like Rodgers as a manager, and are thus trying to downplay a thoroughly impressive victory.

They had what, two half-chances? The Chadli header from a corner at 0-1 and Soldado effort at 0-2.

Off the top of my head, all of our goals were chances or clearcut chances, as well as that Suarez missed three one-on-ones, he and Henderson also missed chances in the lead up to our second goal, Sakho missed a sitter from two yards off the post and Coutinho hit the crossbar and came close to scoring again second half.

Seriously stupid remarks. We absolutely battered them on their own patch.

Offline GrkStav

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #93 on: December 19, 2013, 01:59:36 pm »
I'd imagine the people saying that are those who just don't like Rodgers as a manager, and are thus trying to downplay a thoroughly impressive victory.

They had what, two half-chances? The Chadli header from a corner at 0-1 and Soldado effort at 0-2.

Off the top of my head, all of our goals were chances or clearcut chances, as well as that Suarez missed three one-on-ones, he and Henderson also missed chances in the lead up to our second goal, Sakho missed a sitter from two yards off the post and Coutinho hit the crossbar and came close to scoring again second half.

Seriously stupid remarks. We absolutely battered them on their own patch.

They also had the Holtby shot that went about 2ft wide right (for him) off the good work by Soldado who had managed to sort of nutmeg (not quite, but close) Lucas who had covered all the way to the byline. Flano almost made an attempt to intercept but 'pulled back' at the last moment and made no contact (thankfully, as that's how unfortunate own goals are often scored).

We did "batter them" most of the match on their own patch, btw.
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Offline Greebo62

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #94 on: December 19, 2013, 06:58:52 pm »
Only my opinion, but as I look forward to both the round tables and Phase of Play's analyses, I think it would be good for them  to be separate threads after every match. Pop is one of the most interesting analysts of the game I've come across, but it its also a pleasure to read the other round table contributions...

What do you think, mods?
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Offline conman

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #95 on: December 19, 2013, 07:06:41 pm »
Only my opinion, but as I look forward to both the round tables and Phase of Play's analyses, I think it would be good for them  to be separate threads after every match. Pop is one of the most interesting analysts of the game I've come across, but it its also a pleasure to read the other round table contributions...

What do you think, mods?
how about Pop sets out his tactical analysis pre match, so we can watch it unfold on the pitch.. Is Brendan your real name Pop? ;D

Seriously though, time permitting it would be great to hear his thoughts on how he predicts we will approach each opponent.

Offline Greebo62

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #96 on: December 19, 2013, 07:35:33 pm »
Not a bad idea...  then afterwards we could see how accurate he was... 

Errr... possibly a bit too much pressure on PoP though - imagine the arguments if he ever calls it different from the way the game goes!

Seriously though, we are blessed in having someone of PoP's analytical and coaching ability on this forum.  It does make my day to read his analyses - even when we've lost or performed poorly (sometimes more so), and I'm always amazed (and secretly rather chuffed) that my own observations of the games and the tactics and player performances ties in so well with his, even if I'm unable to express it so clearly and informatively.

Keep up the great work PoP. 

And Happy Christmas to everyone from a long time lurker.
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Offline Shady Craig

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #97 on: December 19, 2013, 08:06:48 pm »
The fucker will start charging Rawk for his analysis at this rate :D

Good read that Phaseo ,think you got it bob as always.







Offline GrkStav

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2013, 09:35:36 pm »
Phaseo.

Oh for the love of sweet baby Jesus, noooooooooo!

 :wave
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Offline Shady Craig

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2013, 12:08:19 am »
Phaseo.

Oh for the love of sweet baby Jesus, noooooooooo!

 :wave
I was taking the piss :D

Offline woof

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #100 on: December 20, 2013, 07:22:59 am »
Phaseo.

Oh for the love of sweet baby Jesus, noooooooooo!

 :wave
Phaseoff?