Author Topic: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?  (Read 25465 times)

Offline CallumLFC

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Since that night at Palace in 2014, it's started a trend of some horrific meltdowns. There isn't a top club in European football who are as bad as ourselves when it comes to melting down like we are. It's becoming an occurrence every few months or so, and last night can now go along with:

Bournemouth 4-3 (3-1 lead blown away in 15 minutes)
Sevilla 3-1 (1-0 lead blown away in 25 minutes)
Sunderland 2-2 (2-0 lead blown away in 5 minutes)
Southampton 3-2 (2-0 lead blown away in 25 minutes)

It goes beyond this sample of results too. Games in which we've won (leading Arsenal 4-1 and giving away 2 goals in 10 minutes, leading Leicester 3-1 and giving away a goal and a penalty in 5 minutes) or games in which we've routinely lost (Spurs 4-1 and City 5-0). That capacity to meltdown and concede a flurry of goals in a short time span is seen whether we win, lose or draw. It's been a regular occurrence for a long time now and i've never known anything like it in my time supporting us.

It's all the more frustrating when it's evident we have a good team based on a brilliant attack, but any progress or chance of success is being halted by this fragility we possess. If we were shit, you would brush it off as a shit side just being what they are. We aren't though. We're a good team who even if it is lacking in top quality in defence and midfield, they still should not be constantly collapsing like they are.

So what are the causes? It clearly doesn't come down to one issue but numerous faults. What are they and how do we fix this fragility in order to become an elite team?

Offline sms1986

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 01:45:26 pm »
How do you know that no other top club is as bad at us at throwing away leads? Have you looked at results for these clubs?

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 01:49:07 pm »
Its not that bad.

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2017, 03:12:37 pm »
Defensive personnel is an issue obviously (our CB's and keepers are nowhere near Champion's League standard), but I do think there's a systemic issue here that falls on the manager. I don't think Klopp is good at setting up a team to keep possession. In fact, I'm not even sure he wants his team to keep possession, regardless of the scoreline.

We are extremely well-drilled in transitions. But we are still not adept at breaking down low-blocks (usually too much hopeful crossing and long balls when more clever possession and manipulation of defenders is necessary--see any team managed by Guardiola) and we can't seem to keep possession when we have a lead. And sometimes it doesn't even look like we *want* to keep possession, which is why I wonder if it's actually a Klopp tactic. He would rather sit deep and try to hit teams on the break than try to keep possession and risk exposure to midfield turnovers and a counter attack.


Offline conman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2017, 03:23:41 pm »
Its not that bad.
Though it does happen every time we play Sevilla.

For me, the problem is two fold.

1. A lack of leadership. First of all, the players should know when to be able to slow down the game, and then must be able to do so. If they don't know, then we are not recruiting smart enough or experienced enough footballers. Last night, we needed a Xavi Alonso in midfield. We needed someone to collect the ball, and pass it back to the defenders, then the goalie and so on. Simply take the time out of the game, and kill their momentum. Considering it's happened so many times and the players haven't yet learned to do this, then we must look at the manager. It's fair to say that he is a supremely talented manager, but this is a glaring blind spot, that should be easily remedied.

2. Following on from the last point. Kloppo needs to recognise this as a problem and not a freak occurrence. It's up to him to ensure they players know how to kill a game. It's also up to him to make the necessary changes (as he did last night), and ensure that the players he puts on the pitch know exactly what to do. In last nights case, Emre wasn't disciplined enough to sit. There didn't seem to be any word passed around to the rest of the team to sit on the ball. We just kept attacking and repeating the same mistakes. What i wouldn't give for a spare piece of paper and a pen to be available in the dugout.


Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2017, 03:24:24 pm »
I think it's hard to fix when the media, fans and subsequently players obsess over it. There's such a thing as talking yourself into a problem and we've been doing it for a while now. I'm not saying it's the underlying reason but it's a major factor.

We could win 10 in a row then capitulate in one game and people would be up in arms over it.

We drew last night and are still top of our group and can win the group, people react like we've lost the Champions League final. It's a bit fucking mad really. Contrast that to drawing 4-4 with Arsenal and Chelsea in 2009, the post match thread on RAWK after the Chelsea game was rightfully full of pride for the team - despite actually exiting the competition, even the 3-1 home defeat wasn't met with the same crap as last night.

You have to be perfect nowadays or JimmyTwit bollox will get on your case and be retweeted by a thousand fucking sheep repeating the same ole shit.

I've probably strayed a bit here but meh.
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Offline sempi

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2017, 03:26:19 pm »
Defensive personnel is an issue obviously (our CB's and keepers are nowhere near Champion's League standard), but I do think there's a systemic issue here that falls on the manager. I don't think Klopp is good at setting up a team to keep possession. In fact, I'm not even sure he wants his team to keep possession, regardless of the scoreline.

We are extremely well-drilled in transitions. But we are still not adept at breaking down low-blocks (usually too much hopeful crossing and long balls when more clever possession and manipulation of defenders is necessary--see any team managed by Guardiola) and we can't seem to keep possession when we have a lead. And sometimes it doesn't even look like we *want* to keep possession, which is why I wonder if it's actually a Klopp tactic. He would rather sit deep and try to hit teams on the break than try to keep possession and risk exposure to midfield turnovers and a counter attack.


Start by wiring Mareno up to the National grid and shocking him every time he makes a mistake!
Last night proved he doesn't have an ounce of sense.

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 03:28:07 pm »
Start by wiring Mareno up to the National grid and shocking him every time he makes a mistake!
Last night proved he doesn't have an ounce of sense.

I'll use this post to demonstrate the very definition of confirmation bias.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 03:28:46 pm »
Start by wiring Mareno up to the National grid and shocking him every time he makes a mistake!
Last night proved he doesn't have an ounce of sense.

How's he been playing up until last night?

Offline Kashinoda

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 03:31:30 pm »
How's he been playing up until last night?

It's quite simple mate.

Sample size of 20 games, in 19 games the player performs anywhere from 'fine' to 'great'. This is not enough to prove anything about the player.

He plays 1 game and has an absolute mare, this is 100% proof of how shit he is.

 :butt
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2017, 03:32:42 pm »
It's quite simple mate.

Sample size of 20 games, in 19 games the player performs anywhere from 'fine' to 'great'. This is not enough to prove anything about the player.

He plays 1 game and has an absolute mare, this is 100% proof of how shit he is.

 :butt

Yeah it's the same as the Moreno thread last night, people coming out of the woodwork to have a go at him. If you can't say anything good when they are playing well, you lose the right to have a go when they turn in a shit performance.

Offline sms1986

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 03:33:32 pm »
Start by wiring Mareno up to the National grid and shocking him every time he makes a mistake!
Last night proved he doesn't have an ounce of sense.

So if he does well against Chelsea I assume you will be amongst the first to say how great he was?

Offline BER

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 03:34:28 pm »
Stop filling centre-mid with attacking players and utility players. We need specialists.

Offline sirKennyDaggers

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 03:36:12 pm »
27 games we have let a lead slip and go on to draw or lose during Jurgen's reign,probably most of them caused by missed chances as well as dodgy defending.
Never a dull moment though,boring we aint.

Offline sempi

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 03:43:17 pm »
So if he does well against Chelsea I assume you will be amongst the first to say how great he was?
Doubt it, whilst he has improved, he is always prone to these kind of errors. I could complain about the half hearted jumps he makes for corners, but then he did manage to clear the area last night on one occasion.

Offline sempi

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 03:45:16 pm »
27 games we have let a lead slip and go on to draw or lose during Jurgen's reign,probably most of them caused by missed chances as well as dodgy defending.
Never a dull moment though,boring we aint.

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Offline RedSince86

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 03:46:40 pm »
We need a pure destroyer in the team and a capable deep lying play maker to dictate the flow of the game,this team for a couple of years has had poor in game management.The Bournemouth game last season still grates me,3-1 in total control with 20 minutes to go, they put a no mark Scottish winger on who had the game of his life on and he frightened the hell out of us every time he got the ball and the rest is history.Watford this season was a cluster fuck of a game we should have won and a 20 minute spell in the second half against West Ham showed the deficiency of our midfield being totally lacking in how to keep the ball and set a tempo and just cruise to the final whistle.

Our back 4 need protection,we need to sign someone of the ilk of Fabinho from Monaco who's probably the best destroyer in Europe.

And we should move for Weigl or Jorginho as the DLP.

If we don't sign these type of position players then we are not going to progress as a team with these major flaws in our CM,it's going to be history repeating it self of blowing leads and our fan base pulling our hair out and screaming at the tv at our lopsided  heavy top team.

Naby Keita with a destroyer and a DLP is a balanced midfield like we had with Gerrard Mascherano and Alonso.
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Offline Alf

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2017, 04:42:51 pm »
I think that City was a freak result because of the sending off. Spurs we just defended appallingly. Last night, last season at Bournemouth and the season before at Bournemouth it was the same thing. Our inability to have 5 minutes on the ball without going full throttle ball and tiring down the opposition when we're in the ascendancy.

Offline tubby

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 04:50:39 pm »
We need a pure destroyer in the team and a capable deep lying play maker to dictate the flow of the game.

Yep.  We're missing both of these things and if we'd just had a Banega in our midfield last night we would've been fine because he's so good and threading play through tight areas.  It was infuriating, watching long ball after long ball because we couldn't play out from the back under pressure.  Firmino is better in the air than you would expect, considering the type of player he is, but he's not the focal point you need if you're clearing your lines and need someone to hold on to it - he's more suited to getting the ball on the deck from midfielders, not battling against centre halves for high balls.

The defending isn't great, but our main problem is midfield.  Easiest way to protect the defence is to keep the ball, and we just can't do it.
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Offline conman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 04:59:35 pm »
Yep.  We're missing both of these things and if we'd just had a Banega in our midfield last night we would've been fine because he's so good and threading play through tight areas.  It was infuriating, watching long ball after long ball because we couldn't play out from the back under pressure.  Firmino is better in the air than you would expect, considering the type of player he is, but he's not the focal point you need if you're clearing your lines and need someone to hold on to it - he's more suited to getting the ball on the deck from midfielders, not battling against centre halves for high balls.

The defending isn't great, but our main problem is midfield.  Easiest way to protect the defence is to keep the ball, and we just can't do it.
however, he did receive the ball plenty of times and instead of recycling the ball and slowing the game down, he took players on and ran for goal.

There's a mental adjustment & a little bit of common sense required.

Offline slaphead

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 05:06:42 pm »
The defending isn't great, but our main problem is midfield.  Easiest way to protect the defence is to keep the ball, and we just can't do it.

I'd agree with that.  We play a similar style as Man City, we're as entertaining (if not more because them fuckers win all the time and we give out mad results ).  Both teams flood the pitch with attacking talent and both defenses, man for man, are not great - but the big difference is they have Fernandinho doing the ugly work, and we don't
They're some side with De Bryune, Sane, Jesus, Aguero etc etc - but if I could take 1 of their players right now it would be Fernandinho. Not because of the ability he has, but because of the balance he brings. We need someone like that

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2017, 05:15:06 pm »
It's quite simple mate.

Sample size of 20 games, in 19 games the player performs anywhere from 'fine' to 'great'. This is not enough to prove anything about the player.

He plays 1 game and has an absolute mare, this is 100% proof of how shit he is.

 :butt

Moreno has definitely improved and he wasn't the only one responsible but he lost his head a couple of times last night. I wouldn't agree that he has reverted to the player he was but the almost unique circumstances last night put him under a lot of personal pressure. Playing against his home town team, at home before a crowd he'd grown up with, just becoming a dad - he probably wants his son to play for Sevilla. ;)

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2017, 05:27:40 pm »
We struggle with game management.

For me, when you're 2-0 or 3-0 up and you concede, there needs to be a response. And that response is to slow the game for a few minutes. We need a man in the middle to put a foot on the ball and find the short, simple pass to someone, anyone, in a red shirt who is free. And we need that man to do the same thing. You do not think about scoring at this moment. You do not think about getting it up the byline. You do not think about crossing the halfway line. You play simple triangles. You sit back. Not deep, but in your half, and you move the ball around.

I was crying out for someone to do this last night, but every ball was forwards every single time. It's ironic that some criticise Henderson for playing sideways when I was desperate for him to do just that and he refused over and over again.

When a team who is behind scores, they get a lift. For a few minutes, they are running on adrenaline, they are quicker and stronger, they are more focused, more aware. They are more dangerous. But they are still behind. So you wait it out. The adrenaline will wear off faster if you can frustrate them. Not for long, either, a couple of minutes of steady, simple, training ground pass-pass-pass, find your man, don't take any risks will feel like a lifetime to the opposition.

And because you're in your half of the field, you are drawing them out. They want the ball, they know on some level that this is meant to be their time, this is when they are dangerous, so they will chase it. Great. That stretches them, takes them out of their shape, so when you do switch it back to attack, they are all over the place and there's spaces to run at.

We were trying to turn it over every time anyone touched the ball last night. I can see the temptation, go back and respond with a goal of your own, changes things around, but it's naive to assume you can just do that every time to quality opposition. We were 3-1 up and looking desperate. Sometimes part of this is the crowd being nervy. I wish there was some way to tell people to stop fretting so fucking loud because it spreads. Roar some confidence into yourself. Have a good shout and a sing, you'll fell better and the team will respond, but it falls on deaf ears because people are in love with displaying their own cowardice for some reason and will happily tell the world they are shitting themselves. I have fuck all idea what that is supposed to achieve.

But I digress.

While I am an admirer of Henderson, he definitely did not show the sort of leadership last night that I expect in that situation. The difference once Can and Milner came on was huge. Even though we conceded late on, their introduction slashed the amount of times we were simply handing the ball back to Seville, or trying to force things that were fringe chances at best at the expense of just closing down play and shutting the game down with some short passes. It's not about the skills of the players. Short-passing in triangles is well within the ability of every member of our squad. The under-17s can do it. It is about someone on the pitch setting the tone, knowing that it is time to crush the tempo, play boring and frustrate. Call it "resting in possession" if you like, it's what Mourinho does but it's also what Rafa was the master of. Draw the sting. Drop a little deep. Let them get overambitious and then, then you break and catch them napping.

Easier said than done in the heat of the moment, sure, but that is where an experienced player, not necessarily the captain, really needs to step up and boss it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 05:29:54 pm by Nessy76 »
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Offline conman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2017, 05:42:45 pm »
Moreno has definitely improved and he wasn't the only one responsible but he lost his head a couple of times last night. I wouldn't agree that he has reverted to the player he was but the almost unique circumstances last night put him under a lot of personal pressure. Playing against his home town team, at home before a crowd he'd grown up with, just becoming a dad - he probably wants his son to play for Sevilla. ;)
Moreno was a symptom, but he wasn't the cause

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2017, 05:47:17 pm »
Moreno was a symptom, but he wasn't the cause

Agree up to a point but his nervy performance was one of the cracks in our easily surmounted defensive line.

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2017, 06:01:50 pm »
Instead of hugging the culprit, give him 5 whippings in front of the squad. That will cut down the errors... or an equivalent thereof:

1. No looking at females for a week. Not even in a magazine or screen.
2. No ice cream for one month.
3. Attend training next time in your barefeet
4. Watch three Everton games in a row in the stadium (so won't be selected in the Liverpool squad)
5. Play Luis Enrique in Fifa 18 with a controller that has no slide tackle button
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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2017, 06:06:37 pm »
A defence that isn`t collectively shit on a regular basis would be decent.

Offline sempi

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2017, 06:07:32 pm »
Moreno has definitely improved and he wasn't the only one responsible but he lost his head a couple of times last night. I wouldn't agree that he has reverted to the player he was but the almost unique circumstances last night put him under a lot of personal pressure. Playing against his home town team, at home before a crowd he'd grown up with, just becoming a dad - he probably wants his son to play for Sevilla. ;)
He didn't need to go back to getting them assists like he did last night!!

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2017, 06:08:18 pm »
Cut out the goals we throw in our net. You can blame forwards for not being ruthless enough but if you score 3 goals it should be plenty. 

We are similar to the Evans era. Prone to pressing the panic button seasoned with sloppy braindless individual errors. Clear out the players who have this season made a showcase of thee blooper showreel. Southampton away in 2015 was the end for Skrtel, so the manager can be ruthless, and it's required.
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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 06:12:14 pm »
We struggle with game management.

For me, when you're 2-0 or 3-0 up and you concede, there needs to be a response. And that response is to slow the game for a few minutes. We need a man in the middle to put a foot on the ball and find the short, simple pass to someone, anyone, in a red shirt who is free. And we need that man to do the same thing. You do not think about scoring at this moment. You do not think about getting it up the byline. You do not think about crossing the halfway line. You play simple triangles. You sit back. Not deep, but in your half, and you move the ball around.

I was crying out for someone to do this last night, but every ball was forwards every single time. It's ironic that some criticise Henderson for playing sideways when I was desperate for him to do just that and he refused over and over again.

When a team who is behind scores, they get a lift. For a few minutes, they are running on adrenaline, they are quicker and stronger, they are more focused, more aware. They are more dangerous. But they are still behind. So you wait it out. The adrenaline will wear off faster if you can frustrate them. Not for long, either, a couple of minutes of steady, simple, training ground pass-pass-pass, find your man, don't take any risks will feel like a lifetime to the opposition.

And because you're in your half of the field, you are drawing them out. They want the ball, they know on some level that this is meant to be their time, this is when they are dangerous, so they will chase it. Great. That stretches them, takes them out of their shape, so when you do switch it back to attack, they are all over the place and there's spaces to run at.

We were trying to turn it over every time anyone touched the ball last night. I can see the temptation, go back and respond with a goal of your own, changes things around, but it's naive to assume you can just do that every time to quality opposition. We were 3-1 up and looking desperate. Sometimes part of this is the crowd being nervy. I wish there was some way to tell people to stop fretting so fucking loud because it spreads. Roar some confidence into yourself. Have a good shout and a sing, you'll fell better and the team will respond, but it falls on deaf ears because people are in love with displaying their own cowardice for some reason and will happily tell the world they are shitting themselves. I have fuck all idea what that is supposed to achieve.

But I digress.

While I am an admirer of Henderson, he definitely did not show the sort of leadership last night that I expect in that situation. The difference once Can and Milner came on was huge. Even though we conceded late on, their introduction slashed the amount of times we were simply handing the ball back to Seville, or trying to force things that were fringe chances at best at the expense of just closing down play and shutting the game down with some short passes. It's not about the skills of the players. Short-passing in triangles is well within the ability of every member of our squad. The under-17s can do it. It is about someone on the pitch setting the tone, knowing that it is time to crush the tempo, play boring and frustrate. Call it "resting in possession" if you like, it's what Mourinho does but it's also what Rafa was the master of. Draw the sting. Drop a little deep. Let them get overambitious and then, then you break and catch them napping.

Easier said than done in the heat of the moment, sure, but that is where an experienced player, not necessarily the captain, really needs to step up and boss it.
Agreed, but that first goal seemed to spread panic through our ranks, suddenly a simple pass was either under or over hit, they were able to intercept 5050 balls.
It did need us to just to play keep ball for at least 10 minutes.

Offline Bob Sacamano

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 06:17:00 pm »
We struggle with game management.

For me, when you're 2-0 or 3-0 up and you concede, there needs to be a response. And that response is to slow the game for a few minutes. We need a man in the middle to put a foot on the ball and find the short, simple pass to someone, anyone, in a red shirt who is free. And we need that man to do the same thing. You do not think about scoring at this moment. You do not think about getting it up the byline. You do not think about crossing the halfway line. You play simple triangles. You sit back. Not deep, but in your half, and you move the ball around.

I was crying out for someone to do this last night, but every ball was forwards every single time. It's ironic that some criticise Henderson for playing sideways when I was desperate for him to do just that and he refused over and over again.

When a team who is behind scores, they get a lift. For a few minutes, they are running on adrenaline, they are quicker and stronger, they are more focused, more aware. They are more dangerous. But they are still behind. So you wait it out. The adrenaline will wear off faster if you can frustrate them. Not for long, either, a couple of minutes of steady, simple, training ground pass-pass-pass, find your man, don't take any risks will feel like a lifetime to the opposition.

And because you're in your half of the field, you are drawing them out. They want the ball, they know on some level that this is meant to be their time, this is when they are dangerous, so they will chase it. Great. That stretches them, takes them out of their shape, so when you do switch it back to attack, they are all over the place and there's spaces to run at.

We were trying to turn it over every time anyone touched the ball last night. I can see the temptation, go back and respond with a goal of your own, changes things around, but it's naive to assume you can just do that every time to quality opposition. We were 3-1 up and looking desperate. Sometimes part of this is the crowd being nervy. I wish there was some way to tell people to stop fretting so fucking loud because it spreads. Roar some confidence into yourself. Have a good shout and a sing, you'll fell better and the team will respond, but it falls on deaf ears because people are in love with displaying their own cowardice for some reason and will happily tell the world they are shitting themselves. I have fuck all idea what that is supposed to achieve.

But I digress.

While I am an admirer of Henderson, he definitely did not show the sort of leadership last night that I expect in that situation. The difference once Can and Milner came on was huge. Even though we conceded late on, their introduction slashed the amount of times we were simply handing the ball back to Seville, or trying to force things that were fringe chances at best at the expense of just closing down play and shutting the game down with some short passes. It's not about the skills of the players. Short-passing in triangles is well within the ability of every member of our squad. The under-17s can do it. It is about someone on the pitch setting the tone, knowing that it is time to crush the tempo, play boring and frustrate. Call it "resting in possession" if you like, it's what Mourinho does but it's also what Rafa was the master of. Draw the sting. Drop a little deep. Let them get overambitious and then, then you break and catch them napping.

Easier said than done in the heat of the moment, sure, but that is where an experienced player, not necessarily the captain, really needs to step up and boss it.

I generally agree with this (although I think it's preferable to keep a higher line while remaining compact than dropping deep), but like I said I'm not sure it's entirely a personnel issue. Rafa, Mourinho, Pep, Wenger...they all know how to set up sides to keep possession. I'm not sure Klopp does. He knows transitions. He knows counter-pressing. But I'm not sure he has a grasp on how best to set up the possession game. It shows when we try to break down low blocks, and it shows when we fail to comfortably maintain leads. And again, maybe he does know, but deliberately refrains from it because he simply prefers a different tactic. Either way it's a huge problem that has shown no signs of improving for 2 + years now.

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 06:18:29 pm »
There's no simple formula for it. It requires pretty much "all of the above".

We need leaders on the pitch. We need to play the full 90 mins with the same determination and intensity. We need our players to display a bit of game intelligence. We need our manager to alter our tactics/style when the situation demands it.

Sometimes you also need a bit of luck and to acknowledge that the other team played well too. Good teams overturn deficits. We did it to Milan in this same competition IIRC.

Offline Goalposts for Jumpers

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 06:18:59 pm »
I don't know if anyone knows where I can get a full match replay that works, but there's a situation I would like to screenshot to ask "why do we keep doing this?".

What it is, if the opposing team plays their fullbacks high and wide and their wingers high and wide, then they can bypass our press so flipping easily (when we're leading/sitting back a bit). The ball winds up at one of the centre backs, they hold onto it a bit to engage firmino on one side. They then switch to the other CB. They hold onto it a bit and lure out our winger (Mane, Mo, Couts or Ox). They play a simple ball forward to whichever CM shows for it (e.g. Banega last night), who plays a first time pass (they are getting pressed from behind) to their full back who is now completely unmarked. Our winger and pressing CM are now out of the game. Our deeper CM (Hendo last night mostly) would go across to press the fullback. Our other CM doesn't shuffle across, so there's a simple ball into their other CM who is now in zone 14 with no one fucking near them, our CBs completely exposed, and ready to pick a pass into our box.

It happened about 15 times in the second half last night - it was so easy to beat our press. It was fucking disgraceful. The fact it kept happening (even when the Ox came on), clearly suggests the players are following instructions. but it wasn't working, and we kept doing it. Aaaaarrrgggg!

Someone with tactical knowledge please explain what we were doing, who was at fault. My guess is it's instructional, so either Klopp, or the pressing CM isn't high enough to cut out the first ball into midfield or the ball across to the FB.

Also, we need CB or CMs with the composure to keep playing football when under pressure. We're actually regressing at it. I can't quite pinpoint where the problem lies for this one. Is it the CB panicking, or the MF not showing for it? Not sure.  :-\

Offline Ratboy3G

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 07:01:27 pm »
I think it's hard to fix when the media, fans and subsequently players obsess over it. There's such a thing as talking yourself into a problem and we've been doing it for a while now. I'm not saying it's the underlying reason but it's a major factor.

We could win 10 in a row then capitulate in one game and people would be up in arms over it.

We drew last night and are still top of our group and can win the group, people react like we've lost the Champions League final. It's a bit fucking mad really. Contrast that to drawing 4-4 with Arsenal and Chelsea in 2009, the post match thread on RAWK after the Chelsea game was rightfully full of pride for the team - despite actually exiting the competition, even the 3-1 home defeat wasn't met with the same crap as last night.

You have to be perfect nowadays or JimmyTwit bollox will get on your case and be retweeted by a thousand fucking sheep repeating the same ole shit.

I've probably strayed a bit here but meh.

Well put mate
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Offline Anfield Ed

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 07:04:08 pm »
All about mental toughness, mental strength and mental resilience in which we lack all three.


Offline conman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2017, 07:27:00 pm »
All about mental toughness, mental strength and mental resilience in which we lack all three.


and common sense.

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2017, 07:34:17 pm »
and common sense.

Not much of that going on in here.

Offline Avens

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2017, 07:40:08 pm »
Why is every disappointing result evidence of a crisis? These things happen, and not as often as you seem to think. I mean, one of the 4 examples in the OP is us giving away a 1-0 lead... Seriously?

Can't we just be pissed off that we didn't win last night, rather than continuing this hysterical narrative that seems to surround every disappointing moment?
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Offline conman

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2017, 07:50:32 pm »
Why is every disappointing result evidence of a crisis? These things happen, and not as often as you seem to think. I mean, one of the 4 examples in the OP is us giving away a 1-0 lead... Seriously?

Can't we just be pissed off that we didn't win last night, rather than continuing this hysterical narrative that seems to surround every disappointing moment?
how many times have we played Sevilla in recent years? and how many leads have we blown?

Offline Reeves

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Re: Meltdowns and giving away leads. What are the causes and how do we fix it?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 07:50:42 pm »
Stop filling centre-mid with attacking players and utility players. We need specialists.


This. Attacking isn't bad. There's room for a Coutinho pulling the strings but we need a DCM
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