Topic: Roberto Firmino

[Dench57]

The FA will probably decide they've been looking at cracking down on players being abusive about goats for some time and will make an example of Bobby.

Manchester City have submitted a complaint to the FA at the request of Shaun Goater

[Nessy76]

I read that too. What worries me is that this has been an extremely protracted process for something that may have been acknowledged at half-time as a misunderstanding.

Not really. The FA should, if they have any responsibility at all, have a defined procedure for handling these sort of complaints. Once those wheels are in motion, they need to follow the procedure to its conclusion. Part of the process is that they need to interview both players. Bear in mind that Firmino was out of the country between the derby and the City match, so they could not interview him then.
The fact that they have not rushed out to a quick decision does not have any bearing on what that decision is likely to be. They are covering their arses by doing this by the book, nothing more.

[Kop Kenny]

I don't believe Bobby did say anything racist and I firmly believe that, that bellend Holgate, realizing he had fucked up big time by assaulting a player totally unprovoked, did the first thing that came into his head and alleged a racist incident in order to not get sent off on the spot.

Is Holgate seriously claiming that not only did the referee and all those around not hear anything that backs up his allegation but that he also is fluent in Portugese and understood every word. If the FA, by some miracle find Bobby not guilty here then Holgate should get a lengthy ban for serious misconduct on the pitch and for raiising a false allegation to boot!

[wige]

I don't believe Bobby did say anything racist and I firmly believe that, that bellend Holgate, realizing he had fucked up big time by assaulting a player totally unprovoked, did the first thing that came into his head and alleged a racist incident in order to not get sent off on the spot.

Is Holgate seriously claiming that not only did the referee and all those around not hear anything that backs up his allegation but that he also is fluent in Portugese and understood every word. If the FA, by some miracle find Bobby not guilty here then Holgate should get a lengthy ban for serious misconduct on the pitch and for raiising a false allegation to boot!

I absolutely don't.

I think he believed what he accused him of. He reacted in a way that made me think something had been said.

From what I've seen, he was completely wide of the mark, and this should be dropped. Shame the 'investigation' doesn't appear to have progressed in around 2 weeks though. Standard shambles from the FA

[sms1986]

Shame the 'investigation' doesn't appear to have progressed in around 2 weeks though. Standard shambles from the FA

Or it's like Nessy said, and they're doing things by the book.

[royabs]

Not really. The FA should, if they have any responsibility at all, have a defined procedure for handling these sort of complaints. Once those wheels are in motion, they need to follow the procedure to its conclusion. Part of the process is that they need to interview both players. Bear in mind that Firmino was out of the country between the derby and the City match, so they could not interview him then.
The fact that they have not rushed out to a quick decision does not have any bearing on what that decision is likely to be. They are covering their arses by doing this by the book, nothing more.

For clarity, I'm not in favour of a quick decision and believe procedures need to be followed by the book. However - if it were a big misunderstanding that was actually cleared up at halftime, I'd suspect that will have come out from more than one source. Thus far, I believe it was only the Mirror (and by proxy the Echo) who reported it.

[royabs]

I absolutely don't.

I think he believed what he accused him of. He reacted in a way that made me think something had been said.

Agree. Even if he has made it up, I don't know how you go about proving that unless he admits it to one of his teammates and they incriminate him.

[wige]

Or it's like Nessy said, and they're doing things by the book.

Possibly, and I concede I have no idea how to handle an investigation into a racism accusation.

That said - what takes two weeks? Interview the players/officials within earshot, look at video replays.

You've either got a serious accusation that needs to be punished, severely, or a person's integrity and reputation on the line that needs to be absolved of doubt.

[Nessy76]

Possibly, and I concede I have no idea how to handle an investigation into a racism accusation.

That said - what takes two weeks? Interview the players/officials within earshot, look at video replays.

You've either got a serious accusation that needs to be punished, severely, or a person's integrity and reputation on the line that needs to be absolved of doubt.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/roberto-firmino-appears-miss-liverpools-14123679

[wige]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/roberto-firmino-appears-miss-liverpools-14123679

Am I missing something? It just says he didn't travel to dubai, possibly due to investigation, club won't make comment and FA are investigating?

[Nessy76]

Am I missing something? It just says he didn't travel to dubai, possibly due to investigation, club won't make comment and FA are investigating?

Yes you are. The FA weren't going to be interviewing him while he was away on holiday in Cyprus.

[redmark]

It took a month for the FA to do initial investigations and decide to charge Suarez after the Evra incident - and another month to reach a conclusion. It took 9 months to charge John Terry for his incident with Anton Ferdinand (with a criminal court case in between) - and another two months to reach a conclusion. Hopefully the investigation will show no case to answer, in the next week or so.

[wige]

Yes you are. The FA weren't going to be interviewing him while he was away on holiday in Cyprus.

An excellent point that my semi drunken brain failed to comprehend

[PoetryInMotion]

Player analysis on Bobby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj75MEiJMZA

[the_red_pill]

Some stats on our Bob since his debut for us:



Hardest working forward by some distance.
Look at Sanchez(for those who say he's lazy/doesn't work hard). Pedro is decidedly 5th.

[ryatnalkar]

Some stats on our Bob since his debut for us:



Hardest working forward by some distance.
Look at Sanchez(for those who say he's lazy/doesn't work hard). Pedro is decidedly 5th.

Love Bobby and loving these stats but surely if they were per 90 mins, they would be more meaningful?

Pedro for instance must have had much less game time than Bobby...

[Nessy76]

Love Bobby and loving these stats but surely if they were per 90 mins, they would be more meaningful?

Nah.

I like a stat as much as the next man, but this whole "per 90 minutes" thing is overdone. The game is not played in discrete 90 minute intervals. It is played in matches that typically last from 94-98 minutes.

If you are only on the pitch five minutes, it is not rational to scale up your performance and pretend that you would have played that way if you started.

You came on late when everyone was knackered and nicked the fourth in a four nil rout, doesn't mean you would have scored eighteen times if you were picked to start, (which you weren't because you are not that good to begin with.)

Real figures, such as goal totals, numbers of specific actions, can and should be examined on a real basis, rather than being reduced to the hypothetical "per 90" nonsense, which is not a reflection of anything taking place in objective reality where football is actually played.

[Redcap]

Nah.

I like a stat as much as the next man, but this whole "per 90 minutes" thing is overdone. The game is not played in discrete 90 minute intervals. It is played in matches that typically last from 94-98 minutes.

If you are only on the pitch five minutes, it is not rational to scale up your performance and pretend that you would have played that way if you started.

You came on late when everyone was knackered and nicked the fourth in a four nil rout, doesn't mean you would have scored eighteen times if you were picked to start, (which you weren't because you are not that good to begin with.)

Real figures, such as goal totals, numbers of specific actions, can and should be examined on a real basis, rather than being reduced to the hypothetical "per 90" nonsense, which is not a reflection of anything taking place in objective reality where football is actually played.

Granted different chunks of time across the game are not equal, but surely measuring by 90 minute intervals is a better measure than treating a player that starts 38 games the same way as a player that subs on for 20 minutes for 38 games?

[Nessy76]

Granted different chunks of time across the game are not equal, but surely measuring by 90 minute intervals is a better measure than treating a player that starts 38 games the same way as a player that subs on for 20 minutes for 38 games?

Those players are not equally performing. Real football is played in matches. If you want to know if a player is good then you need a realistic assessment and you don't get that from a few minutes off the bench. If a player is not regularly playing 90 minutes, then it's not a reason to pump his stats, it's a reason to wonder why he's not trusted to start more games.

To take this to its logical conclusion, Leyton Maxwell is not the best player ever to appear for Liverpool FC, but his goals per 90 is a club record. He scored on his first and only appearance for the club. He was not a one goal a game player, he was a one goal per LFC career player.

There are times when "per 90" can be useful if you're comparing two players with similar records over different numbers of games (say one has played ten more matches in a season) but that does not mean that those are the only "meaningful" stats. In isolation, they can be even worse.

For a full picture of course, look at both.

[Redcap]

Those players are not equally performing. Real football is played in matches. If you want to know if a player is good then you need a realistic assessment and you don't get that from a few minutes off the bench. If a player is not regularly playing 90 minutes, then it's not a reason to pump his stats, it's a reason to wonder why he's not trusted to start more games.

To take this to its logical conclusion, Leyton Maxwell is not the best player ever to appear for Liverpool FC, but his goals per 90 is a club record. He scored on his first and only appearance for the club. He was not a one goal a game player, he was a one goal per LFC career player.

There are times when "per 90" can be useful if you're comparing two players with similar records over different numbers of games (say one has played ten more matches in a season) but that does not mean that those are the only "meaningful" stats. In isolation, they can be even worse.

For a full picture of course, look at both.

Not sure how this is taking anything to its logical conclusion. The example you've given clearly has a sample size problem. If a guy played 5 full 90s and scored two goals in each of those games, then broke both legs in five places, that doesn't tell us that he wasn't trusted enough to play more games. It does tell us that there wasn't enough data to assess him by, possibly.

Because, as you'd agree, games where players sub on for 20 minutes and games where they start and play 90 minutes are not the same thing, it makes no sense to lump all data points together as 'per game'. That's what we're looking at when we're talking about 'per game' data. And when we look at 'total' stats, which don't divide by a sensible interval at all, we get situations where players that haven't played as much.

A way to add nuance to the methodology would be to assess their effectiveness in games where they start and play, for example, minimum 60 minutes only.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

I'm not liking the fact that everyone has started to realize how good Bobby is.

 

[sms1986]

I'm not liking the fact that everyone has started to realize how good Bobby is.

It doesn’t change anything, any other big club who had any interest in him will have known about him for ages.

[Qston]

Some stats on our Bob since his debut for us:



Hardest working forward by some distance.
Look at Sanchez(for those who say he's lazy/doesn't work hard). Pedro is decidedly 5th.

Arnautovic has some impressive stats as well - certainly more impressive than I thought they would be.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Nah.

I like a stat as much as the next man, but this whole "per 90 minutes" thing is overdone. The game is not played in discrete 90 minute intervals. It is played in matches that typically last from 94-98 minutes.

If you are only on the pitch five minutes, it is not rational to scale up your performance and pretend that you would have played that way if you started.

You came on late when everyone was knackered and nicked the fourth in a four nil rout, doesn't mean you would have scored eighteen times if you were picked to start, (which you weren't because you are not that good to begin with.)

Real figures, such as goal totals, numbers of specific actions, can and should be examined on a real basis, rather than being reduced to the hypothetical "per 90" nonsense, which is not a reflection of anything taking place in objective reality where football is actually played.

A lot of truth in this actually.

I've been guilty of this myself when judging Firmino negatively in the past in comparison to Mané and Coutinho in particular. The latter two tend(ed) to pick up injuries/get subbed earlier whereas Firmino doesn't (*touches wood*) and thus his "per 90" stats would suffer, especially when he was playing without them.

I still stand by my opinion that his dips in terms of productivity and performance were too long in the past, but it was also wrong to almost be punishing a player - in terms of an outlook on a player - for having a strong fitness/injury record.

[clinical]

Arnautovic has some impressive stats as well - certainly more impressive than I thought they would be.

Bit misleading as he wasn't played as a striker for Stoke.

[Iska]

Why is it just comparing those five players?  Are they the top five in the whole league in all of these categories?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Why is it just comparing those five players?  Are they the top five in the whole league in all of these categories?

It's only two categories really.

Any player who has arrived to the league from 2016 onwards is automatically at a disadvantage as they'd have had less opportunity for minutes.

[Nessy76]

Not sure how this is taking anything to its logical conclusion. The example you've given clearly has a sample size problem. If a guy played 5 full 90s and scored two goals in each of those games, then broke both legs in five places, that doesn't tell us that he wasn't trusted enough to play more games. It does tell us that there wasn't enough data to assess him by, possibly.

Because, as you'd agree, games where players sub on for 20 minutes and games where they start and play 90 minutes are not the same thing, it makes no sense to lump all data points together as 'per game'. That's what we're looking at when we're talking about 'per game' data. And when we look at 'total' stats, which don't divide by a sensible interval at all, we get situations where players that haven't played as much.

A way to add nuance to the methodology would be to assess their effectiveness in games where they start and play, for example, minimum 60 minutes only.

I was not advocating a per game basis either, although it may have its uses. I think you need to look at things from a range of perspectives. That can certainly include per 90, but it does not mean that the only meaningful stats are expressed in that way. However you do it, there are going to be inconsistencies.

In the end, however, it's only the absolute numbers that actually count.

[joekim87]

That header... If he scored he would have definitely taken off his shirt and gotten and yellow and probably suspended, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise? Trying to find some sort of silver lining here..

[GreatEx]

That header... If he scored he would have definitely taken off his shirt and gotten and yellow and probably suspended, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise? Trying to find some sort of silver lining here..

Why would he have been suspended? He's only had one yellow all season, and hadn't been booked in this game.

[redgriffin73]

That header... If he scored he would have definitely taken off his shirt and gotten and yellow and probably suspended, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise? Trying to find some sort of silver lining here..

Bobby loves a goal celebration but I'm not convinced even he would have ripped his shirt off at a goal which scraped us a last second equaliser against Swansea!

[rafathegaffa83]

Firmino, Holgate interviewed, but no timescale for completion

Holgate, Firmino interviewed by FA as part of alleged racism investigation

Mark Ogden Senior Football Writer

The Football Association's disciplinary unit has interviewed Everton defender Mason Holgate and Liverpool forward Roberto Firmino as part of the investigation into alleged racism during this month's FA Cup third round tie at Anfield, sources have told ESPN FC.

The FA is investigating claims by Holgate that he was racially abused by Firmino after shoving the Brazilian into advertising hoardings at the side of the pitch during the first half of Everton's 2-1 defeat.

While no timescale has been put on the investigation, FA sources have confirmed the probe is making progress and that witnesses, including match officials and players from both teams, have been, or are in the process of being, interviewed by the governing body's disciplinary unit.

Referee Bobby Madley triggered the investigation by submitting a match report to the FA, detailing the incident and Holgate's allegation, prompting the FA to confirm that it would investigate the incident.


An FA statement, issued earlier this month, said: "The FA can confirm that referee Bobby Madley was made aware of an allegation during the Liverpool versus Everton game at Anfield last night and has subsequently reported this to The FA, which will now begin making enquiries into the matter."

Although Friday will mark three weeks since the Liverpool-Everton tie, the FA are determined not to set a timeframe on potential charges being issued, with sources insisting that a thorough investigation is the priority, rather than a need to move swiftly, due to the serious nature of the allegations.

When Luis Suarez was charged with racially abusing Manchester United defender Patrice Evra in 2011, it took the FA more than four weeks of investigations before charging the Liverpool forward.

Suarez then had to wait another month before being issued with an eight-match suspension and £40,000 fine after being found guilty of the charge.
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-fa-cup/story/3358575/holgate-firmino-interviewed-by-fa-as-part-of-alleged-racism-investigation?ex_cid=fw_affid68

[sms1986]

"Although Friday will mark three weeks since the Liverpool-Everton tie, the FA are determined not to set a timeframe on potential charges being issued, with sources insisting that a thorough investigation is the priority, rather than a need to move swiftly, due to the serious nature of the allegations." is the important part. I think it helps us that they're taking it seriously, means any outcome will be more considered and fair.

Still think Firmino will escape any action (and rightfully so) whilst Holgate may or may not face action. I'm more bothered about Firmino, though, although I'm confident that they'll find he said nothing other than what has already been widely reported (the whole crazy motherfucker thing).

[Alanslad]

"Although Friday will mark three weeks since the Liverpool-Everton tie, the FA are determined not to set a timeframe on potential charges being issued, with sources insisting that a thorough investigation is the priority, rather than a need to move swiftly, due to the serious nature of the allegations." is the important part. I think it helps us that they're taking it seriously, means any outcome will be more considered and fair.

Still think Firmino will escape any action (and rightfully so) whilst Holgate may or may not face action. I'm more bothered about Firmino, though, although I'm confident that they'll find he said nothing other than what has already been widely reported (the whole crazy motherfucker thing).

I've got no faith in the FA. I hope I'm wrong but I think they will be looking to stitch Firmino up any way they can.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I've got no faith in the FA. I hope I'm wrong but I think they will be looking to stitch Firmino up any way they can.

Yes, I wonder if they'll use the old balance of probabilities method of dispensing justice, or whether they'll decide that the words he's been seen to have said in Portugese are so much worse than those uttered weekly in English and ban accordingly. It's the FA so anything could happen.

[Nick110581]

I've got no faith in the FA. I hope I'm wrong but I think they will be looking to stitch Firmino up any way they can.

Corrupt organisation.

He will get a ban I reckon.

[sms1986]

Corrupt organisation.

He will get a ban I reckon.

I think it’s more likely that they’ll not take any action against either player.

[clinical]

Remember when there was video evidence of John Terry and he got a 5 game ban. Fully expect the FA to give a 8 match ban with no evidence whatsoever.

[sms1986]

Remember when there was video evidence of John Terry and he got a 5 game ban. Fully expect the FA to give a 8 match ban with no evidence whatsoever.

Or, as there is no evidence, they'll not punish him at all. I know the FA are incompetent at best, but let's see what happens before gloomily predicting large bans.

[SlowRap]

Or, as there is no evidence, they'll not punish him at all. I know the FA are incompetent at best, but let's see what happens before gloomily predicting large bans.

He'll get a few games for swearing