Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[Tony19:6]

What? We have the additions of fabinho, keita, lallana this season and you think Milner will get even more time? I’m not seeing that. He got a lot of time last season due to Can and Ox’s injuries. He’ll not get more this season. Everyone will probably get less.

I think we may see a better Henderson with all the competition, but I doubt we will see more of him with so many quality midfielders.
 

No, I meant he will get a decent amount of minutes too (not as in more than last season), it seemed like a lot of people seem to have discounted him.

[Dundalis]

Been reading in various threads about how Hendo will struggle to break into our side this season or how he will be slowly phased out etc etc..

I think it's all Bollox..

Hendo is a very important cog in Klopp's wheel..
I also think Klopp really appreciates Hendo a lot more than some of the fans..

Apart from being the engine of our side he is also the leader out there and that's something neither Naby or Fabino have yet.. They won't be barking orders and organising at least for the initial part of the season..

Hendo will be more important for us this season then most people believe..

Hendo is optimally a squad player. Because in a top side you have quality players on the bench. That's not an indictment on Hendo, it's a celebration of the fact that we can attract the absolute best in the world to the club. Ultimately I think people are saying he's not quite in that category, which is correct, not that he isn't a good player. You would be better off supporting the best, most productive and talented players getting in the side, and recognising the quality we would potentially have on the bench rather than bemoan the fact people think he isn't best 11.

I personally maintain Hendo is not a particularly great DM, and I think the advanced statistics bear that out when compared to other top DM's. He's solid in the role and nothing more. The article on the echo talking about how Hendo could actually have a much more productive season this year even if he isn't first choice is true, because I think his boundless energy is better suited to a box to box role, rather than a sitting DM, which I think relies more on positional intelligence and patience than pure intense workrate. If we don't get a central attacking midfielder like Fekir (I personally hope we do, because the fact is with Ox out our truly creative midfield options that can also contribute goals are limited to the injury prone Lallana and Keita, and we do not have a top class FK taker), then I think a midfield with Fabinho holding, Keita attacking and Henderson roaming box to box could actually be a really great combination of intelligence, skill and insane pressing ability. Milner could also effectively replicate this too however.

[PoetryInMotion]

Hendo is optimally a squad player. Because in a top side you have quality players on the bench. That's not an indictment on Hendo, it's a celebration of the fact that we can attract the absolute best in the world to the club. Ultimately I think people are saying he's not quite in that category, which is correct, not that he isn't a good player. You would be better off supporting the best, most productive and talented players getting in the side, and recognising the quality we would potentially have on the bench rather than bemoan the fact people think he isn't best 11.

I personally maintain Hendo is not a particularly great DM, and I think the advanced statistics bear that out when compared to other top DM's. He's solid in the role and nothing more. The article on the echo talking about how Hendo could actually have a much more productive season this year even if he isn't first choice is true, because I think his boundless energy is better suited to a box to box role, rather than a sitting DM, which I think relies more on positional intelligence and patience than pure intense workrate. If we don't get a central attacking midfielder like Fekir (I personally hope we do, because the fact is with Ox out our truly creative midfield options that can also contribute goals are limited to the injury prone Lallana and Keita, and we do not have a top class FK taker), then I think a midfield with Fabinho holding, Keita attacking and Henderson roaming box to box could actually be a really great combination of intelligence, skill and insane pressing ability. Milner could also effectively replicate this too however.

For me, Hendo is not a "DM" and never was. He didn't play DM last season as well. Yes, he played the deepest midfielder, went in between the CBs and picked the ball off them, but off the ball is a different story. The way we defended from the front helped, not to escalate to dreadful levels even without a DM. His primary duty was still on the ball, to circulate the ball and to act as a Deep Lying Playmaker. If you observed at times during games last season, Hendo was the highest position midfielder off the ball, often to press the opposition while the other midfielders covered the spaces between the middle and the flanks. Position wise, it might seem like we had a 6 and two 8s. But role wise, we had 2 8s and a 10 in midfield. Hendo's role last season coincides more with Jorginho (DLP) than Fabinho (No. 6). Yes, he wasn't box-to-box, but he was no DM. It's like denying Salah was our striker because he started wide. The position didn't matter because, he was indeed our striker.

His energy may not be noticed as when he was running as a box-to-box, but it certainly helped our pressing even as our deepest midfielder. And his distribution was pretty good, he switched play well and generally did what was required of the job. If you compare his defensive numbers with other "DM"s (like Kante, Fabinho), he won't obviously weigh up to, because he wasn't a DM, his primary job was not to dispossess the opponent. However, if you compare his impact on the ball, his general distribution and his pressing numbers with other with DLPs, he will score fairly well.

Can, however when he played there, tried to be the DM, but he didn't have the tactical nous to pull it off. It could also be due to the difference in interpretation of the position by each individual player.

[Dundalis]

For me, Hendo is not a "DM" and never was. He didn't play DM last season as well. Yes, he played the deepest midfielder, went in between the CBs and picked the ball off them, but off the ball is a different story. The way we defended from the front helped, not to escalate to dreadful levels even without a DM. His primary duty was still on the ball, to circulate the ball and to act as a Deep Lying Playmaker. If you observed at times during games last season, Hendo was the highest position midfielder off the ball, often to press the opposition while the other midfielders covered the spaces between the middle and the flanks. Position wise, it might seem like we had a 6 and two 8s. But role wise, we had 2 8s and a 10 in midfield. Hendo's role last season coincides more with Jorginho (DLP) than Fabinho (No. 6). Yes, he wasn't box-to-box, but he was no DM. It's like denying Salah was our striker because he started wide. The position didn't matter because, he was indeed our striker.

His energy may not be noticed as when he was running as a box-to-box, but it certainly helped our pressing even as our deepest midfielder. And his distribution was pretty good, he switched play well and generally did what was required of the job. If you compare his defensive numbers with other "DM"s (like Kante, Fabinho), he won't obviously weigh up to, because he wasn't a DM, his primary job was not to dispossess the opponent. However, if you compare his impact on the ball, his general distribution and his pressing numbers with other with DLPs, he will score fairly well.

Can, however when he played there, tried to be the DM, but he didn't have the tactical nous to pull it off. It could also be due to the difference in interpretation of the position by each individual player.

That's a fair analysis. Whatever specific position you actually want to attribute to Henderson, I still think my analysis of his impact remains. He was a solid player with a single outstanding attribute, that being his workrate. I'd have to check the stats compared to other DLP's, but I would highly doubt he compares favourably to the actual top ball playing DLP's in terms of actual playmaking. He should have more of an impact in a box to box role, which is an article on the Echo website. But he's also easily interchangeable with Milner. He should be a really good squad player this season.

[Giono]

Don't forget that Milner only started two of our first 13 games last season, though. I don't see that low count being repeated.

Proportionally he may not feature more across this season than he did in the final few months of last season, but he may rack up more minutes when comparing season to season.

To me it felt like Klopp was challenging him to earn his place in midfield having more than likely requested to no longer play at left-back. While injuries undoubtedly aided him, his performances did improve as time wore on and he earned that spot.

That was the case early in the season. But at that time Klopp said that it was on purpose and that he was saving Milner for later in the season. Maybe he’ll do that again?

[PoetryInMotion]

That's a fair analysis. Whatever specific position you actually want to attribute to Henderson, I still think my analysis of his impact remains. He was a solid player with a single outstanding attribute, that being his workrate. I'd have to check the stats compared to other DLP's, but I would highly doubt he compares favourably to the actual top ball playing DLP's in terms of actual playmaking. He should have more of an impact in a box to box role, which is an article on the Echo website. But he's also easily interchangeable with Milner. He should be a really good squad player this season.

Agree with your point on his outstanding attribute (considering he also has other good attributes that often seem brushed aside generally) and we might have to wait to compare stats, but I don't think Milner and him are interchangeable. Henderson's clearly a notch better in playing that deepest midfielder role, he has the passing range to switch play much more effectively than Milner. As an advanced midfielder, Milner's interpretation of the position is different to Henderson's. Milner plays it like an auxillary winger. They're extremely different players in generally, and are only interchangeable if we're simplistic enough to tie them together using the term "work-rate".

[elpistolero7]

Been reading in various threads about how Hendo will struggle to break into our side this season or how he will be slowly phased out etc etc..

I think it's all Bollox..

Hendo is a very important cog in Klopp's wheel..
I also think Klopp really appreciates Hendo a lot more than some of the fans..

Apart from being the engine of our side he is also the leader out there and that's something neither Naby or Fabino have yet.. They won't be barking orders and organising at least for the initial part of the season..

Hendo will be more important for us this season then most people believe..

Doubt he gets phased out or anything. He's got a lot of useful attributes, and he's a good midfielder. The reason people may think that, is that he lacks any outstanding attributes, and we have midfielders quite a bit younger than him who are on a completely different level.

Fabinho and Keita haven't played in this league, but are on a different planet to him talent wise. The Ox showed a level last season at times which we've never seen from Henderson. Considering we have 3 midfielders more talented than him, its only natural people will feel he is not a vital player anymore.

Fact is that this is a squad based game, especially in Klopp's system. The Ox is out for the season, and we are incredibly lucky to have Henderson, Milner and Gini as a potential rotation midfield if Lallana/Fabinho/Keita is the starting midfield. Henderson may be in there for Lallana, none of us can say for sure.

I personally don't think he's well suited to being the deepest midfielder. Karius's performance and Madrid's great midfield are focused on, but the problem with Henderson was identified in that game, while his better attributes were highlighted vs City. He's great off the ball, wins the ball back really well and has a decent passing range, but in pressure situations, he has no courage on the ball - this isn't to say he is a coward before people jump on this post, but if you re-watch the match, Henderson barely played it forward all game, and kept giving it back to the CB's, and even repeatedly deferred passing responsibility to 19 year old Trent, when someone like Fabinho or Weigl, would have turned and played through the press. Zidane exploited this weakness and we were horiffically suffocated at the base.
This is why I believe Fabinho will be the most vital signing for this system.

Henderson will see plenty of games, but I hope its as one of the more advanced midfielder, as his engine and passing range can be used effectively. He's good at the final pass as he showed in our title challenge under Rodgers, too. In games we don't get agressively pressed, he's very useful, but when we are, he should be nowhere near the starting lineup, as he just runs away from any sort of responsibility. I await the superfans to destroy me now.

[Suareznumber7]

It’s a little of a challenge for Klopp with Hendo I think.  Ideally, he would use Hendo a lot in the early part of the season while Fabinho acclimates and gets up to speed on how we play.  But with the World Cup and how late Hendo will be back that’s likely not an option.  Anyone who doesn’t think that Hendo will be an important member of the team is kidding themselves.  Yes, he has limitations, but so does every player (except maybe Keita who is going to absolutely crush this league)

[number 168]

It’s a little of a challenge for Klopp with Hendo I think.  Ideally, he would use Hendo a lot in the early part of the season while Fabinho acclimates and gets up to speed on how we play.  But with the World Cup and how late Hendo will be back that’s likely not an option.  Anyone who doesn’t think that Hendo will be an important member of the team is kidding themselves.  Yes, he has limitations, but so does every player (except maybe Keita who is going to absolutely crush this league)

To secure a regular place in our midfield this season you will have to better than the players you keep out. Is Henderson one of our top three best midfielders? Not for me, but he is a valuable player and will get game time to give others a break or when we need his particular skill set, but as a first pick, I doubt it, particularly if Jurgen gets his Coutinho replacement. I feel him, Lallana, Ox (hopefully) and Milner will play supporting roles this season, each getting game time, and what about Curtis Jones as well?

[Nessy76]

To secure a regular place in our midfield this season you will have to better than the players you keep out. Is Henderson one of our top three best midfielders? Not for me, but he is a valuable player and will get game time to give others a break or when we need his particular skill set, but as a first pick, I doubt it, particularly if Jurgen gets his Coutinho replacement. I feel him, Lallana, Ox (hopefully) and Milner will play supporting roles this season, each getting game time, and what about Curtis Jones as well?

It's not like you can just stick any three out there, Henderson will be used where his strengths are effective. I'd be amazed if he didn't play more than half our games. We still have just two players for the deep lying roles, unless Grujic sticks around for the season, and Fabinho will need time to adjust.
Milner is basically cover at this point, but Henderson will play.

[DanA]

I think Henderson is our 2nd best midfielder behind Keita but there's not a huge gap between any of them IMO. I also think Fabinho will come good but it may take him a little time.

[Medellin]

A bit of perspective looking at when AL has a run of games..16/17 compared

https://i.imgur.com/NdJy0qm_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[Giono]

I’m looking forward to seeing the positivity and balance of a midfield of Fab, Nab and Gini.

[Giono]

I think Henderson is our 2nd best midfielder behind Keita but there's not a huge gap between any of them IMO. I also think Fabinho will come good but it may take him a little time.

That doesn’t make sense on a few levels.

Just look at our recent transfer business. VVD is a massive upgrade on the defenders we had. Alison is a massive upgrade om the keepers we have. Keita is a massive upgrade on any midfielder we have. But somehow Fabinho is sub par and just making up the numbers?

[killer-heels]

That doesn’t make sense on a few levels.

Just look at our recent transfer business. VVD is a massive upgrade on the defenders we had. Alison is a massive upgrade om the keepers we have. Keita is a massive upgrade on any midfielder we have. But somehow Fabinho is sub par and just making up the numbers?

Dont think that is quite what he is saying.

[Nessy76]

That doesn’t make sense on a few levels.

Just look at our recent transfer business. VVD is a massive upgrade on the defenders we had. Alison is a massive upgrade om the keepers we have. Keita is a massive upgrade on any midfielder we have. But somehow Fabinho is sub par and just making up the numbers?

Oxlade Chamberlain took a few months to adapt. Does that help?

[Dundalis]

Agree with your point on his outstanding attribute (considering he also has other good attributes that often seem brushed aside generally) and we might have to wait to compare stats, but I don't think Milner and him are interchangeable. Henderson's clearly a notch better in playing that deepest midfielder role, he has the passing range to switch play much more effectively than Milner. As an advanced midfielder, Milner's interpretation of the position is different to Henderson's. Milner plays it like an auxillary winger. They're extremely different players in generally, and are only interchangeable if we're simplistic enough to tie them together using the term "work-rate".

Wasn't comparing them in the deepest midfield role. Milner's not much good at that, and I mentioned in the Fabinho thread that really only him and Henderson are viable in that particular role in our squad (of course someone like Milner can play there in a pinch). However as box to box types, I think they are relatively equally effective. Milner is more creative on the ball IMO primarily because of his experience as a wingman. He can play as an auxilary wingman but Milner is absolutely all over the pitch in that role and he proved it time and again in the Champions League, also finishing with the most assists ever.

[Giono]

Oxlade Chamberlain took a few months to adapt. Does that help?

Does Fabinho look a liability so far? Ox plays as an attacking mid. For us, our front 4 pay much differently than other clubs because of the pressing and defensive responsabilities. Did VVD take 3 months? Gini didn’t.

Fabinho looks fine so far to me. Actually he looks much sharper than Lallana does.

[Nessy76]

Does Fabinho look a liability so far? Ox plays as an attacking mid. For us, our front 4 pay much differently than other clubs because of the pressing and defensive responsabilities. Did VVD take 3 months? Gini didn’t.

Fabinho looks fine so far to me. Actually he looks much sharper than Lallana does.

Nobody is saying he is a liability. He is moving from French football to the hardest working team in the Premier League. It might take a while for him to adjust. He will be playing against faster, stronger and better players than before, with different expectations from referees.

Maybe someone can find the average distance run by Fabinho for Monaco. I would be amazed if it is close to Henderson's figures. That will take time. It's not an attack on the lad, far from it. It will be a while before we see the best of him, that's all.

[Giono]

Nobody is saying he is a liability. He is moving from French football to the hardest working team in the Premier League. It might take a while for him to adjust. He will be playing against faster, stronger and better players than before, with different expectations from referees.

Maybe someone can find the average distance run by Fabinho for Monaco. I would be amazed if it is close to Henderson's figures. That will take time. It's not an attack on the lad, far from it. It will be a while before we see the best of him, that's all.

Very true. He will get even better, which is great!

I wouldn’t make a comparison about running distances though. That could be deceiving and hide efficiency and effectiveness.

There will be some differences between the keagues and clubs. I do think it is interesting that Klopp is encouraging Fabinho to make the adjustment to playing higher up the pitch. Seems our style will be adjusted slightly this season, perhaps as a result of having improved the midfield with Keita, Fabinho and Lallana coming in. A lot of our play was down the wings the last few seasons and perhaps we will see a bit more play up the middle through Keita.

[Nessy76]

Very true. He will get even better, which is great!

I wouldn’t make a comparison about running distances though. That could be deceiving and hide efficiency and effectiveness.

There will be some differences between the keagues and clubs. I do think it is interesting that Klopp is encouraging Fabinho to make the adjustment to playing higher up the pitch. Seems our style will be adjusted slightly this season, perhaps as a result of having improved the midfield with Keita, Fabinho and Lallana coming in. A lot of our play was down the wings the last few seasons and perhaps we will see a bit more play up the middle through Keita.

Yes, this is what is so impressive about our recruitment here. We were very good last season, but there was room for improvement through the middle. Keita and Fabinho could be transformational signings, in that they will give us more options in both defence and attack. We should be even harder to play against now, with a midfield that should be able to dominate aggressively.

One thing I have been banging on about with us since Rodgers was here is how we never seem to be able to just keep the ball and move it around. The way we played against Manchester United the other day was the best I've seen us do that in a long time. Obviously not the first team, but the shape, and the will to play that way could be a game changer. It's all about adding strings to the bow.

[No666]

Doubt he gets phased out or anything. He's got a lot of useful attributes, and he's a good midfielder. The reason people may think that, is that he lacks any outstanding attributes, and we have midfielders quite a bit younger than him who are on a completely different level.

Fabinho and Keita haven't played in this league, but are on a different planet to him talent wise. The Ox showed a level last season at times which we've never seen from Henderson. Considering we have 3 midfielders more talented than him, its only natural people will feel he is not a vital player anymore.

Fact is that this is a squad based game, especially in Klopp's system. The Ox is out for the season, and we are incredibly lucky to have Henderson, Milner and Gini as a potential rotation midfield if Lallana/Fabinho/Keita is the starting midfield. Henderson may be in there for Lallana, none of us can say for sure.

I personally don't think he's well suited to being the deepest midfielder. Karius's performance and Madrid's great midfield are focused on, but the problem with Henderson was identified in that game, while his better attributes were highlighted vs City. He's great off the ball, wins the ball back really well and has a decent passing range, but in pressure situations, he has no courage on the ball - this isn't to say he is a coward before people jump on this post, but if you re-watch the match, Henderson barely played it forward all game, and kept giving it back to the CB's, and even repeatedly deferred passing responsibility to 19 year old Trent, when someone like Fabinho or Weigl, would have turned and played through the press. Zidane exploited this weakness and we were horiffically suffocated at the base.
This is why I believe Fabinho will be the most vital signing for this system.

Henderson will see plenty of games, but I hope its as one of the more advanced midfielder, as his engine and passing range can be used effectively. He's good at the final pass as he showed in our title challenge under Rodgers, too. In games we don't get agressively pressed, he's very useful, but when we are, he should be nowhere near the starting lineup, as he just runs away from any sort of responsibility. I await the superfans to destroy me now.

Agree with this. I don't think it's running away from responsibility, though. I think it's being responsible to a fault - the fear of losing the ball close to our goal. JH is very lucky to be playing for our team and captaining it and one of his more endearing qualities is that he clearly thinks so, too; he takes it all very seriously and strives to do it well. It doesn't sit lightly on him.

[Giono]

Yes, this is what is so impressive about our recruitment here. We were very good last season, but there was room for improvement through the middle. Keita and Fabinho could be transformational signings, in that they will give us more options in both defence and attack. We should be even harder to play against now, with a midfield that should be able to dominate aggressively.

One thing I have been banging on about with us since Rodgers was here is how we never seem to be able to just keep the ball and move it around. The way we played against Manchester United the other day was the best I've seen us do that in a long time. Obviously not the first team, but the shape, and the will to play that way could be a game changer. It's all about adding strings to the bow.

We made them look second rate. It seems the orders are lots of quick short passing. The last couple of seasons we have been vulnerable from being ponderous in the middle and we have not been able to close out matches prefessionally by controlling the midfield. I’m really curious what will happen this season if teams let us have the ball. The default defence setting may have to change.

[elpistolero7]

Agree with this. I don't think it's running away from responsibility, though. I think it's being responsible to a fault - the fear of losing the ball close to our goal. JH is very lucky to be playing for our team and captaining it and one of his more endearing qualities is that he clearly thinks so, too; he takes it all very seriously and strives to do it well. It doesn't sit lightly on him.

Its this coupled with a lack of technique to turn in tight spaces, which is why he'll never be an elite number 6 I feel. Over the course of 90 minutes, you don't have to play the safe pass every single time in a game when we are chasing for a big portion of it.

[No666]

Exactly. He knows he hasn't got the technique and plays it safe - the responsible thing to do. But there's a place for cockiness, arrogance in a good way - as Klopp would call it. See, Gerrard.

[elpistolero7]

Exactly. He knows he hasn't got the technique and plays it safe - the responsible thing to do. But there's a place for cockiness, arrogance in a good way - as Klopp would call it. See, Gerrard.

Being able to play a pass forwards and not panicking and reverting the ball back to where it came from repeatedly is a big problem though. Its why Fabinho was signed...he does these things well, unlike Henderson, who as I have stated above is a valuable player, but lacks key attributes that prevent him from being a top midfielder.

[Qston]

Really looking forward to our midfield department this year!

Milner deffo takes the minutes and circulates to other members of the department and the other departmental heads (VVD obviously and Bobby for the strikers)

[Nessy76]

Being able to play a pass forwards and not panicking and reverting the ball back to where it came from repeatedly is a big problem though. Its why Fabinho was signed...he does these things well, unlike Henderson, who as I have stated above is a valuable player, but lacks key attributes that prevent him from being a top midfielder.

Henderson plays more forward passes than people give him credit for. Seem to recall someone actually posting the figures and he was arguably the most forward minded midfielder in the league at times.

[exiledinyorkshire]

Surely what Henderson does more often than not is keep the ball circulating. When he gets it in that deep midfield position with the opposition 10 men behind the ball, that's when we are trying to drag them out, and the ball back to where it came from has to be tactical surely. It seems so to me.

People getting frustrated with him is possibly a bit unfair, it's part of our tactical plan.

[elpistolero7]

Henderson plays more forward passes than people give him credit for. Seem to recall someone actually posting the figures and he was arguably the most forward minded midfielder in the league at times.

Referring more to when the opposition presses him, like the final in Madrid. They pressed him, he continually turned backwards, passed it to the CB or RB and was panicking on the ball. That is a huge problem at the elite level when margins are so small.

[elpistolero7]

Surely what Henderson does more often than not is keep the ball circulating. When he gets it in that deep midfield position with the opposition 10 men behind the ball, that's when we are trying to drag them out, and the ball back to where it came from has to be tactical surely. It seems so to me.

People getting frustrated with him is possibly a bit unfair, it's part of our tactical plan.

What is the benefit of pinging it right back to the keeper or to the CB who has just passed it to him, and doing this repeatedly?

I'd be very interested to hear the tactical implications of this. Barcelona for example at their peak had teams sitting back against them all the time. Busquets reaction/style on receiving the ball from the CB/keeper is very very different from Henderson's. Always looks up, looks for a smart pass up the field, even when he's being pressured.

I think it may be better to play him further forward. His really impressive season for us was the 13/14 title challenge. He won the ball back high up the pitch, gave a good number of assists, and got some goals too. He's just really limited and a 6/10 player at the number 6, very passive and shuns responsibility. I think his good attributes can be exploited better further up the midfield.

[sempi]

What is the benefit of pinging it right back to the keeper or to the CB who has just passed it to him, and doing this repeatedly?

I'd be very interested to hear the tactical implications of this. Barcelona for example at their peak had teams sitting back against them all the time. Busquets reaction/style on receiving the ball from the CB/keeper is very very different from Henderson's. Always looks up, looks for a smart pass up the field, even when he's being pressured.

I think it may be better to play him further forward. His really impressive season for us was the 13/14 title challenge. He won the ball back high up the pitch, gave a good number of assists, and got some goals too. He's just really limited and a 6/10 player at the number 6, very passive and shuns responsibility. I think his good attributes can be exploited better further up the midfield.

He's being asked to do the dirty work, breaking up attacks. It is a necessity, he stays in his position and if  he plays a short sideways pass it because those upfront are being tightly marked.
His forward passing has improved in my opoinion.

[sempi]

He's being asked to do the dirty work, breaking up attacks. It is a necessity, he stays in his position and if  he plays a short sideways pass it because those upfront are being tightly marked.
His forward passing has improved in my opoinion.

Opinion, damn spell cheker!!!

[elpistolero7]

He's being asked to do the dirty work, breaking up attacks. It is a necessity, he stays in his position and if  he plays a short sideways pass it because those upfront are being tightly marked.
His forward passing has improved in my opoinion.

Not arguing with you on that he does win the ball back...but you completely ignore the crux of my post

[exiledinyorkshire]

What is the benefit of pinging it right back to the keeper or to the CB who has just passed it to him, and doing this repeatedly?

I'd be very interested to hear the tactical implications of this. Barcelona for example at their peak had teams sitting back against them all the time. Busquets reaction/style on receiving the ball from the CB/keeper is very very different from Henderson's. Always looks up, looks for a smart pass up the field, even when he's being pressured.

I think it may be better to play him further forward. His really impressive season for us was the 13/14 title challenge. He won the ball back high up the pitch, gave a good number of assists, and got some goals too. He's just really limited and a 6/10 player at the number 6, very passive and shuns responsibility. I think his good attributes can be exploited better further up the midfield.

The tactical benefit would be to draw them out of a low block, the ball goes into a deep midfield position they put pressure immediately on to that midfield player with a 10 yard shuttle run. Ball goes back to where it came from. At that point the chess pieces on the board have all moved and the question "is it on?" Can be asked again, if it is and the closing down has opened space for a forward pass it goes forward, if not rinse and repeat.

But I could be wrong. It just seems tactical to me  rather than Hendersons fear or lack of ability.

[elpistolero7]

The tactical benefit would be to draw them out of a low block, the ball goes into a deep midfield position they put pressure immediately on to that midfield player with a 10 yard shuttle run. Ball goes back to where it came from. At that point the chess pieces on the board have all moved and the question "is it on?" Can be asked again, if it is and the closing down has opened space for a forward pass it goes forward, if not rinse and repeat.

But I could be wrong. It just seems tactical to me  rather than Hendersons fear or lack of ability.

Perhaps. But please rewatch the CL final and explain to me how he played was smart tactically in any way. He was petrifed of turning and beating the press, that's clear as day. That's not to say he doesn't bring a lot to the table, he does. He's a top 4 midfielder and would be valuable in any team in the league barring City. I think Henderson's ability in tight spaces and lack of trust in his own ability in tight spaces is his biggest weakness.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Referring more to when the opposition presses him, like the final in Madrid. They pressed him, he continually turned backwards, passed it to the CB or RB and was panicking on the ball. That is a huge problem at the elite level when margins are so small.

Losing the ball in that position is an even bigger problem, though.

[PhaseOfPlay]

What is the benefit of pinging it right back to the keeper or to the CB who has just passed it to him, and doing this repeatedly?

I'd be very interested to hear the tactical implications of this. Barcelona for example at their peak had teams sitting back against them all the time. Busquets reaction/style on receiving the ball from the CB/keeper is very very different from Henderson's. Always looks up, looks for a smart pass up the field, even when he's being pressured.

I think it may be better to play him further forward. His really impressive season for us was the 13/14 title challenge. He won the ball back high up the pitch, gave a good number of assists, and got some goals too. He's just really limited and a 6/10 player at the number 6, very passive and shuns responsibility. I think his good attributes can be exploited better further up the midfield.

Who sees more of the field - Player 1 or Player 2:

[elpistolero7]

Losing the ball in that position is an even bigger problem, though.

Of course. However having the ability to play it out and beat the press is a big advantage - something which Fabinho is extremely skilled at from what I've seen. The elite number 6 players do this very frequently - Busquets and Weigl especially are majestic at this, and for me its also a big reason why they are so highly rated.

I think Henderson playing in front of Fabinho might be interesting, as his best assets were utilized really well under Rodgers in 13/14. Perhaps we will see this again.

[elpistolero7]

Who sees more of the field - Player 1 or Player 2:

If player 2 can turn and beat the player pressing him (and there are not many in world football who do this with regular success without making potentially fatal errors leading to goals), isn't that a huge advantage. For LFC isn't that one of the reasons Fabinho has been signed?

That was more so my point (thougn again I'm no football coach so I could be totally wrong  )
Curious to hear your opinion!