Topic: Roberto Firmino

[Trendisnotdestiny]

This thread...

Cripes

On some level I understand that people need to scapegoat someone, but some of the comment in here beggars belief.

Yup, it hits me with the same type of thwack that comes from listening to people advocate for austerity policies, or that there is not enough money to feed/house people or binning off one family member because of sexuality, something ridiculous like that.

People are not disposable. 

And all of the justifications trotted out - serve one class of people at the expense of another.

And all the while, there is a confused grouping of people who neither grasp nor fully understand how they have become consumers of and water carriers for this production cycle of neoliberalism.

Nowhere is this more apparent this morning than in a few supporters minds --- "Bin Firmino, he's done"  "Klopp is done here" or the such.  Certainly not the majority of voices but some of the more frequent messages.



How many times does it take for a lie to be repeated that it enters the consciousness of inevitability machine PR apparatus and gets shoveled to us as the new reality?

Klopp's whole approach has been to create family - believers - for his players not bin them off when things get difficult. 

We all could learn a lot from him

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Yup, it hits me with the same type of thwack that comes from listening to people advocate for austerity policies, or that there is not enough money to feed/house people or binning off one family member because of sexuality, something ridiculous like that.

 

Comparing advocating selling Firmino if we need to raise funds for a couple of new attacking players (which I would hope is not the case, but we do not have a bottomless pit of funds, especially now) to advocating austerity, starving people or discarding a gay person is a new low for this forum.

Reminds me of when I advocated selling Karius to get a better goalkeeper and was compared to championing Brexit. Remind me of how that one ended again? Probably best not start comparing people's views on football players to their views on wider society. It makes you sound like a complete nut job.

People might not be disposable, but football players are. There's transfers being discussed and finalised every single day. Roberto Firmino is a Liverpool legend, but his time at the club will end at some point in the future. I hope that's not in the summer because I think he can still contribute with reduced minutes and a change in role. But if he has to make way for us to upgrade in that area of the pitch, so be it. I won't lose any sleep over it and no child will go hungry or gay person shunned for it either. Get a fucking grip.

[MD1990]

I wouldnt sell.
But he should be our starting CF next season.

Can drop into midfield.

[Wool]

Let's look at this in more detail:

Jota started 5 times in the League. Who was he partnered with as a starter?

4/10  Villa-- Jota, Bobby, Mo. No Sadio
24/10 Shef. Utd-- Jota, Sadio, Bobby, Mo. All 4 started.
8/11 Man City-- Jota, Sadio, Bobby, Mo. All 4 started.
22/11 Leicester-- Jota, Bobby, Sadio. No Mo.
28/11 Brighton-- Jota, Bobby, Mo. No Sadio.

So under your assertions, actually it was Sadio as the most often "benched" to give Jota a game in the League.

Bobby started every time.  And in three of the matches above Jota scored. Shef, Leicester, Brighton. Maybe it was because Bobby was on the pitch. Nah, couldn't have been...

Fair enough, I got that wrong! Although I was taking about all comps and not just the league.  We’ll see what Klopp decides as the season progresses/this summer 

[4pool]

Fair enough, I got that wrong! Although I was taking about all comps and not just the league.  We’ll see what Klopp decides as the season progresses/this summer 

Ok, no worries.

But Jota playing in the League Cup instead of Bobby, isn't quite the same as benching him. We see a lot of posters advocate playing the kids in that Cup and the FA Cup tbf.

He did get 4 starts in the CL. Both Midtjylland matches ( another play the kids shout) . And one each for Ajax and Atalanta.

He shined in the Atalanta away match where Bobby didn't start for a change.

[redk84]

I don't know about anyone else but selling Bobby is the last thing I would do..think it would be disastrous

Getting some players to lighten the load for him sure, but he has got such a good footballing brain and for forward thinking players that is essential especially as the legs start to go.

Whatever the iteration of Liverpool's attack will be going forward even beyond next season, having someone like Bobby in the squad is gold imo

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Comparing advocating selling Firmino if we need to raise funds for a couple of new attacking players (which I would hope is not the case, but we do not have a bottomless pit of funds, especially now) to advocating austerity, starving people or discarding a gay person is a new low for this forum.

Reminds me of when I advocated selling Karius to get a better goalkeeper and was compared to championing Brexit. Remind me of how that one ended again? Probably best not start comparing people's views on football players to their views on wider society. It makes you sound like a complete nut job.

People might not be disposable, but football players are. There's transfers being discussed and finalised every single day. Roberto Firmino is a Liverpool legend, but his time at the club will end at some point in the future. I hope that's not in the summer because I think he can still contribute with reduced minutes and a change in role. But if he has to make way for us to upgrade in that area of the pitch, so be it. I won't lose any sleep over it and no child will go hungry or gay person shunned for it either. Get a fucking grip.

I am clearly saying there is an indifference here with Bobby- to someone who is an important member of the Liverpool family.  It is all over this thread.

To ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor.   

Some need to be reminded in a different way that life is not fantasy manager.  And that losing is not the worst thing can happen at a club.  Discussion about players is inevitable, but HOW we discuss is not.

Supporters replicating ownership culture on internet message boards, players as commodities is a particular scourge - along with the same resonating messages (there is no alternative). 

A better question is how did we got to the point to where one difficult season gets projected onto one or a few people --- with calls for replacements for a team with trophies in their back pockets not passports.

[lionel_messias]

I am clearly saying there is an indifference here with Bobby- to someone who is an important member of the Liverpool family.  It is all over this thread.

To ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor.   

Some need to be reminded in a different way that life is not fantasy manager.  And that losing is not the worst thing can happen at a club.  Discussion about players is inevitable, but HOW we discuss is not.

Supporters replicating ownership culture on internet message boards, players as commodities is a particular scourge - along with the same resonating messages (there is no alternative). 

A better question is how did we got to the point to where one difficult season gets projected onto one or a few people --- with calls for replacements for a team with trophies in their back pockets not passports.

"To ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor."

Wow, I'm not sure what you're smoking and I'll have some of those cookies, man.

Bobby's a great player. I think he is 29, so we should as a great club be looking at younger players to give him competition and the biggest factor with him is:
just how much bloody football he has played in the last 4 years! 

[Bergersrightwingviews]

I am clearly saying there is an indifference here with Bobby- to someone who is an important member of the Liverpool family. It is all over this thread.

It's not a family. It's a football club and it exists to win trophies as Shankly said.  Now I happen to think Firmino is still able to contribute a lot, but as soon as he isn't able to do so he should be out the door.  As Paisely said "let them lose their legs on someone else's pitch".  Reasonable people can disagree on how much Bobby still has to offer.

While they are here they are adored (and paid handsomely) when ex-players return almost without exception they get a great reception even if they are lining up against us.

I understand that Klopp values the "togetherness" of a squad and will protect his boys.  He isn't as ruthless by nature as Bill and Bob were, but even with Klopp it isn't as simple as "we are all one big family" look at how he booted Sakho out for example.

Bringing your politics into it makes you sound a little daft.  As for this "to ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor. ".  You are barking up the wrong tree here because football is a rare example of where the labour still gets to call most of the shots.

[kasperoff]

It's not a family. It's a football club and it exists to win trophies as Shankly said.  Now I happen to think Firmino is still able to contribute a lot, but as soon as he isn't able to do so he should be out the door.  As Paisely said "let them lose their legs on someone else's pitch".  Reasonable people can disagree on how much Bobby still has to offer.

While they are here they are adored (and paid handsomely) when ex-players return almost without exception they get a great reception even if they are lining up against us.

I understand that Klopp values the "togetherness" of a squad and will protect his boys.  He isn't as ruthless by nature as Bill and Bob were, but even with Klopp it isn't as simple as "we are all one big family" look at how he booted Sakho out for example.

Bringing your politics into it makes you sound a little daft.  As for this "to ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor. ".  You are barking up the wrong tree here because football is a rare example of where the labour still gets to call most of the shots.

Nicely put. I was just prepping a similar reply. That analogy was nuts, quite frankly.

Some folk take the family and togetherness thing far too literally. We aren't keeping players around who are not good enough, and that's the end of it. A requisite to be in the family is being good enough to make quality contributions. If we play to sentiment we will go down hill very quickly.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

It's not a family. It's a football club and it exists to win trophies as Shankly said.  Now I happen to think Firmino is still able to contribute a lot, but as soon as he isn't able to do so he should be out the door.  As Paisely said "let them lose their legs on someone else's pitch".  Reasonable people can disagree on how much Bobby still has to offer.

While they are here they are adored (and paid handsomely) when ex-players return almost without exception they get a great reception even if they are lining up against us.

I understand that Klopp values the "togetherness" of a squad and will protect his boys.  He isn't as ruthless by nature as Bill and Bob were, but even with Klopp it isn't as simple as "we are all one big family" look at how he booted Sakho out for example.

Bringing your politics into it makes you sound a little daft.  As for this "to ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor. ".  You are barking up the wrong tree here because football is a rare example of where the labour still gets to call most of the shots.

That's what all labours say...

[El Lobo]

It's not a family. It's a football club and it exists to win trophies as Shankly said.  Now I happen to think Firmino is still able to contribute a lot, but as soon as he isn't able to do so he should be out the door.  As Paisely said "let them lose their legs on someone else's pitch".  Reasonable people can disagree on how much Bobby still has to offer.

While they are here they are adored (and paid handsomely) when ex-players return almost without exception they get a great reception even if they are lining up against us.

I understand that Klopp values the "togetherness" of a squad and will protect his boys.  He isn't as ruthless by nature as Bill and Bob were, but even with Klopp it isn't as simple as "we are all one big family" look at how he booted Sakho out for example.

Bringing your politics into it makes you sound a little daft.  As for this "to ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor. ".  You are barking up the wrong tree here because football is a rare example of where the labour still gets to call most of the shots.

Moving further and further away from the point of a Firmino thread...but you really cant say its daft to 'bring your politics' into it when you're literally quoting ideologies from 60 years ago. I think maybe only Muhammad Ali is more quotable than Shanks, but a lot of them just don't stand up in the modern world. Maybe it'd be better if they did, who knows. But they don't. 

[Bergersrightwingviews]

Moving further and further away from the point of a Firmino thread...but you really cant say its daft to 'bring your politics' into it when you're literally quoting ideologies from 60 years ago. I think maybe only Muhammad Ali is more quotable than Shanks, but a lot of them just don't stand up in the modern world. Maybe it'd be better if they did, who knows. But they don't.

Shankly is one of the greatest managers of all time.  He is the single most important figure in the history of this club.  He knew more about football than any of us ever will.  For those reasons, what he had to say about the game is always worth considering. 

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Nicely put. I was just prepping a similar reply. That analogy was nuts, quite frankly.

Some folk take the family and togetherness thing far too literally. We aren't keeping players around who are not good enough, and that's the end of it. A requisite to be in the family is being good enough to make quality contributions. If we play to sentiment we will go down hill very quickly.

As a football coach by trade,  you either live what you preach, or you do not.   Shankly did.  Jurgen does.

Loyalty and creating a culture of change is not taking things too far.

Firmino is not the problem here -- he is a solution to many problems.   Some here reasonably say he is not the same player he was - fair enough.  But I disagree - I think he is exactly the same player as the world of change has been all around - including all things in Timbo's/Keyops thread.

This is not sentiment, this is watching every game, listening to manager, the media and reading posters comments on the lad for 4.5 years.

Sentiment would be if I was saying is that he is irreplaceable.    No one is irreplaceable,  but talking about Bobby's demise like it was inevitable is a media talking point that serves every other club, not LFC. 

[Robinred]

"To ignore this is to not understand the history of the 70s/80s and how capital seized control over labor."

Wow, I'm not sure what you're smoking and I'll have some of those cookies, man.

Bobby's a great player. I think he is 29, so we should as a great club be looking at younger players to give him competition and the biggest factor with him is:
just how much bloody football he has played in the last 4 years! 

Well quite. Spurious arguments about capitalism are odd to say the least. Fact is Bobby Firmino is a handsomely paid footballer in a profession where young men can earn sufficient money to effectively ‘retire’ in their early 30s.

He’s played so much football for club and country, with barely a break, that it’s almost inevitable that when an additional injury crisis robs the squad of numbers, his form suffers (despite which, that general loss of form has been punctuated with some glimpses of his best, even very recently). He’s still got a huge part to play in my view, and I certainly won’t be writing him off.

However, we should never forget that Liverpool’s previous successful managers were entirely ruthless when deciding a player’s time was up.

The question then, is simply put: is Bobby’s time up? I for one will say definitely not. My strong suspicion is that Klopp and Edwards take that view; but who knows? they might be looking at changing personnel in the front three for next season.

The point is, perennially successful clubs don’t stand still. Look at the rebuilding jobs Klopp has achieved elsewhere - he is loyal to his players, but like Shanks, Paisley and Rafa before him, loyalty to the club always trumps that.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

The question then, is simply put: is Bobby’s time up? I for one will say definitely not. My strong suspicion is that Klopp and Edwards take that view; but who knows? they might be looking at changing personnel in the front three for next season.

The point is, perennially successful clubs don’t stand still. Look at the rebuilding jobs Klopp has achieved elsewhere - he is loyal to his players, but like Shanks, Paisley and Rafa before him, loyalty to the club always trumps that.

Hear hear.

Perfectly put.  My take on your question is - no.  His time is not up yet, but we may need to see adjustments to the system and his role.  He may also need to play fewer games than he is used to as well. 

[Oskar]

He just needs to up his game - he's not the only player that that could be said and it doesn't require political discourse or Shankly quotes to state the obvious.

Jota will be available again soon and we might well be looking at adding more competition for the front three in the summer so hopefully that will give Firmino and Mane some impetus to get back to the level of performance we know they're capable of.

[El Lobo]

Shankly is one of the greatest managers of all time.  He is the single most important figure in the history of this club.  He knew more about football than any of us ever will.  For those reasons, what he had to say about the game is always worth considering.

Absolutely.

And the single most important figure at the club presently most likely has a very different view on how he'd treat injured players, which is also worth considering

[Jookie]

The question then, is simply put: is Bobby’s time up? I for one will say definitely not. My strong suspicion is that Klopp and Edwards take that view; but who knows? they might be looking at changing personnel in the front three for next season.

I don’t think anyone could build a really solid argument that Firmino doesn’t contribute to our success or couldn’t  contribute to any future success.

I suppose the question for me is how important the club view him to future success. I have no idea what Klopp thinks. Two factors that are true and I suspect will be considered over the next 12-18 months is that a) Firmino’s contract runs out in summer of 2023, & b) he’s one of the highest paid players in the squad.

In a likely scenario where finances will be more limited the role of every player approaching 30 needs to be considered. Even more so if they are a high wage earner and/or are getting into the last 2 years of their contract. We’ve seen how we’ve dealt with Wijnaldum as a example of this. I have no idea how Klopp views Firmino’s longer term future at the club. I do however expect the club to seriously review the situation this summer and summer 2022. Not specifically Firmino’s future alone but all the players that fit in those conditions of entering the final 2 years of their contract or approaching 30.

[AndyMuller]

I think Werner was the replacement we had in mind for Firmino but obviously look at how that turned out.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Well quite. Spurious arguments about capitalism are odd to say the least. Fact is Bobby Firmino is a handsomely paid footballer in a profession where young men can earn sufficient money to effectively ‘retire’ in their early 30s.

He’s played so much football for club and country, with barely a break, that it’s almost inevitable that when an additional injury crisis robs the squad of numbers, his form suffers (despite which, that general loss of form has been punctuated with some glimpses of his best, even very recently). He’s still got a huge part to play in my view, and I certainly won’t be writing him off.

However, we should never forget that Liverpool’s previous successful managers were entirely ruthless when deciding a player’s time was up.

The question then, is simply put: is Bobby’s time up? I for one will say definitely not. My strong suspicion is that Klopp and Edwards take that view; but who knows? they might be looking at changing personnel in the front three for next season.

The point is, perennially successful clubs don’t stand still. Look at the rebuilding jobs Klopp has achieved elsewhere - he is loyal to his players, but like Shanks, Paisley and Rafa before him, loyalty to the club always trumps that.

Counterpoint:   Capital is effective in its messaging precisely because they can divide labour into competing fragments, which promotes in-fighting with the subtle hand of media tipping the scales for unnecessary divisions, lack of clarity and some real bullshit
                                  It is a complex analogy -- but a simple message.   

                                  Required Reading:  https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=346951.0

                                  Firmino is a Liverpool player and has earned our support, through trophies, GW goals and rough patches.  He's not done.  The calls for his sale discussions are from another planet.

                                  The fact there is division on this thread (and has been present for a long time) is a symptom of seeing Bobby as one (commodity) thing instead of the panoply of soccer wonderment that he is (a human bundle of energy who is the straw that stirs our LFC drink).

                                  To miss all of this (in the middle of our pandemic, injury plagued, referee-VAR experience) and call for him to be gone is like the pinnacle of irony after his last few seasons.



      Okay, time to let others have their say.  Enough for now.
                               

[El Lobo]

I think Werner was the replacement we had in mind for Firmino but obviously look at how that turned out.

Why do you think that...? Genuinely intrigued as I've really not seen a great deal of Werner, but they don't seem even remotely similar players apart from where their names might be on the team sheet.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Why do you think that...? Genuinely intrigued as I've really not seen a great deal of Werner, but they don't seem even remotely similar players apart from where their names might be on the team sheet.

They're not.

[Samie]

He should be sitting on his arse on the bench come next season.  Not a starter anymore.

[Dave McCoy]

Right...but here in the real world, which actually matters, Salah is top goalscorer in the league with only (from my quick research) Son and DCL having scored more than him from open play.

Right, here in the real world where the team has earned the penalties for Salah to take and his open play contribution by some metrics is the lowest of his career in a red shirt.  Now nobody is saying to sell Salah or that he's shit but here in the Firmino thread where generally he's been the same Firmino he's always been there's a bunch of people now saying he's shit.  Well then he's been shit the whole time he's been here.  For me just shows that player threads are a curse on this forum as they have almost no value at all other than showcasing the wild mood swings of our fellow LFC fans here.

[Agent99]

[Robinred]

Counterpoint:   Capital is effective in its messaging precisely because they can divide labour into competing fragments, which promotes in-fighting with the subtle hand of media tipping the scales for unnecessary divisions, lack of clarity and some real bullshit
                                 It is a complex analogy -- but a simple message.   

                                  Required Reading:  https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=346951.0

                                  Firmino is a Liverpool player and has earned our support, through trophies, GW goals and rough patches.  He's not done.  The calls for his sale discussions are from another planet.

                                  The fact there is division on this thread (and has been present for a long time) is a symptom of seeing Bobby as one (commodity) thing instead of the panoply of soccer wonderment that he is (a human bundle of energy who is the straw that stirs our LFC drink).

                                  To miss all of this (in the middle of our pandemic, injury plagued, referee-VAR experience) and call for him to be gone is like the pinnacle of irony after his last few seasons.



      Okay, time to let others have their say.  Enough for now.
                               

Well Trend, I read everything in that thread, and posted in it. But if as you say, it’s a complex analogy, I have to admit it’s too complex for me to grasp.

I understand loyalty. I also understand temporary loss of form. I also understand that temporary loss of form to a key player who’s contributed hugely to major honours, entitles that player to levels of leeway not afforded to others - notwithstanding the age/wage considerations Jookie brought up.

But I’m buggered if I understand what that has to do with your political analogy, so we’re better off leaving it there.

[AndyMuller]

Why do you think that...? Genuinely intrigued as I've really not seen a great deal of Werner, but they don't seem even remotely similar players apart from where their names might be on the team sheet.

I think the system itself was going to evolve with Werner introduced as Firmino's replacement. Did you think he was going to come here and be a back up to him?

[AndyMuller]

Also Trend is Vin Diesel.

[Fromola]

As a football coach by trade,  you either live what you preach, or you do not.   Shankly did.  Jurgen does.

Loyalty and creating a culture of change is not taking things too far.

Firmino is not the problem here -- he is a solution to many problems.   Some here reasonably say he is not the same player he was - fair enough.  But I disagree - I think he is exactly the same player as the world of change has been all around - including all things in Timbo's/Keyops thread.

This is not sentiment, this is watching every game, listening to manager, the media and reading posters comments on the lad for 4.5 years.

Sentiment would be if I was saying is that he is irreplaceable.    No one is irreplaceable,  but talking about Bobby's demise like it was inevitable is a media talking point that serves every other club, not LFC.

What was it Paisley said about letting players lose their legs on someone else's pitch? Or the quote about Liverpool exist to win trophies. The best managers are also ruthless.

That's not to say get rid. I'd rather keep him, but we need to rethink the whole number 9 role. The front 3 as it is has run its course.

[El Lobo]

I think the system itself was going to evolve with Werner introduced as Firmino's replacement. Did you think he was going to come here and be a back up to him?

I think he was probably coming in, as Jota has, to rotate into the front three but more to be covering the two 'wide' positions

[Jookie]

He should be sitting on his arse on the bench come next season.  Not a starter anymore.

In an ideal world, next season we would have Jota and potentially another front 3 player that would add real competition to the current 3 for those positions. We'd keep the current 4 and add a complimentary player. Arguably that would be more of an out and out No.9. Or maybe a true No.10.

I just not sure how likely that is though. Can we carry 4 or 5 really highly paid forward players for 3 positions? Can we have Firmino, Mane, Salah  or a new signing sitting on the bench regularly picking up 150-200k per week? The other Q is whether Klopp would want to manage a true 5 into 3 scenario. He hasn't previously and has hinted at this. He also hasn't rotated his front 3 players a lot previously (arguable that is down to availability of options versus choice).

I think it probably comes back to whether Klopp and his staff view Firmino (or any other existing player) as a contributor next season. I think he probably does so I'd be surprised if Firmino is moved on this summer. I'd be equally surprised if we bought another forward this summer to challenge the current front 4. I think it'll be the current 4 players carrying the load with Elliott and maybe 1 other providing additional support.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Right, here in the real world where the team has earned the penalties for Salah to take and his open play contribution by some metrics is the lowest of his career in a red shirt.  Now nobody is saying to sell Salah or that he's shit but here in the Firmino thread where generally he's been the same Firmino he's always been there's a bunch of people now saying he's shit.  Well then he's been shit the whole time he's been here.  For me just shows that player threads are a curse on this forum as they have almost no value at all other than showcasing the wild mood swings of our fellow LFC fans here.

Salah has scored six penalties in the league this season. Two were won due to him being fouled. One was won by his shot striking an arm. One was won by Gini striking an arm. One was won by Mane being fouled. One was won by Fabinho being fouled. So he's won three of the six penalties he's scored himself.

Salah outperforming his xG is credit to him. Firmino consistently underperforming his is a negative mark against him. In the real world that is. You carry on using xG in a really weird, illogical way by all means if it makes you happy.

[Dench57]

[El Lobo]

[LallanaInPyjamas]

lol!

[Agent99]

[Trendisnotdestiny]

What was it Paisley said about letting players lose their legs on someone else's pitch? Or the quote about Liverpool exist to win trophies. The best managers are also ruthless.

That's not to say get rid. I'd rather keep him, but we need to rethink the whole number 9 role. The front 3 as it is has run its course.

Supporters are not managers.  This is the krux of the argument - supporters have a role to play; it is when we lose sight of it and try to take on too much (like player personnel decisions with limited knowledge)

Jurgen is laughing at the thought of "we" rethinking his #9 as well as the broad statement of that the front 3 is done.   


Wish there were consequences for these kinds of arguments.  Kind of like a poster scorecard. 


Glad you want to keep him ---- and that you use Paisley as an example (but maybe Timbo's/Keyop's/Lobo's post on the supporters thread might do some good).

[PeterTheRed ...]

I think it is more that he is able to do the things he does well when teams allow us to play.  When teams sit deep (as they increasingly do against us) he is ineffective as is the rest of the team.

This is a real problem because we need to find a way to win against the bus parkers. I have said this before, but there is no point in Firmino drifting deep to try and draw out CBs if the CBs have absolutely no interest in following him and instead stay in a rigid line. 

That is why we should sign another "fox-in-the-box No.9" in the summer, and play Firmino in the "advanced No.8" role, as they call it these days. His link-up play is still one of the best in the World, and him playing between the lines of the low block will be very effective, with two of Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson and Keita behind him. At the same time, Jones should be learning the role from Firmino, and take it over after 2-3 years ...

[Bergersrightwingviews]

That is why we should sign another "fox-in-the-box No.9" in the summer, and play Firmino in the "advanced No.8" role, as they call it these days. His link-up play is still one of the best in the World, and him playing between the lines of the low block will be very effective, with two of Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson and Keita behind him. At the same time, Jones should be learning the role from Firmino, and take it over after 2-3 years ...

I like your style.  That still gives you the option of playing Firmino as the "9" against the best opposition as well.