Topic: Vegans in Sport - Have Your Say

[killer-heels]

Is organic farming harmful?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

You've got no fucking excuse not to be vegan then. 

 

[shravan.satya]

I can't absorb B12 from food no matter how many juicy rare steaks I eat.

fuck! hopefully that is resolved now in someway, shape or form, mate.

[CraigDS]

You've got no fucking excuse not to be vegan then. 

Meat tastes good 

[Elmo!]

Is organic farming harmful?

I think the argument is that if organic farming suddenly became the norm, it is far less efficient, and the world would not be able to produce enough food for everyone.

I certainly understand that point, and can agree with it to a point. I don't think it should mean that organic farming, and research into improving it should stop,

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Is organic farming harmful?

Negative headlines about organic farming’s carbon footprint are missing the bigger picture about its environmental benefits, say Christel Cederberg and Hayo van der Werf

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2237411-all-the-reasons-why-organic-food-doesnt-deserve-such-bad-press/#ixzz71NDL4CwH

[shravan.satya]

Is organic farming harmful?

I am a proponent of permaculture which in essence is organic farming. So, for me, it is the answer to so many problems that are plaguing the environment right now. But, I want to hear the other side.

[CraigDS]

fuck! hopefully that is resolved now in someway, shape or form, mate.

Injections for life.

I feel the effect of a lack of b12 regularly - and it comes on quick (I can be dosed right up and within 3-4 weeks the symptoms start). Most don't think much of them but I've had to be able to identify them - tiredness is normally the first, followed by fuzzy brain (you start forgetting words for things). Most will put these things down to other things, but it'll often be b12.

If I leave it longer then I'll start getting out of breath quicker than usual, and then this can lead eventually to randomly passing out as your brain is starved of oxygen. That's what happened when I was rushed into hospital and diagnosed.

B12 is a lot more important than people think. The specialist I was seeing (thankfully don't have to now) used to bang on about how many vegans he treats who suffer from anemia due to the lack of B12/iron (linked).

[Elmo!]

Meat tastes good 

 

Sorry, I've read your posts before about it. I believe you are like myself as someone who has to get regular injections to stay alive (diabetic myself). Sucks doesn't it?

[CraigDS]

Sorry, I've read your posts before about it. I believe you are like myself as someone who has to get regular injections to stay alive (diabetic myself). Sucks doesn't it?

It is, even more so when the NHS have a set "every 3 months" rule even though I know I need it more often (as do many others who suffer from it). Thankfully I've been able to buy it privately and the/my gf injects me every 3 or 4 weeks.

[shravan.satya]

Injections for life.

I feel the effect of a lack of b12 regularly - and it comes on quick (I can be dosed right up and within 3-4 weeks the symptoms start). Most don't think much of them but I've had to be able to identify them - tiredness is normally the first, followed by fuzzy brain (you start forgetting words for things). Most will put these things down to other things, but it'll often be b12.

If I leave it longer then I'll start getting out of breath quicker than usual, and then this can lead eventually to randomly passing out as your brain is starved of oxygen. That's what happened when I was rushed into hospital and diagnosed.

B12 is a lot more important than people think. The specialist I was seeing (thankfully don't have to now) used to bang on about how many vegans he treats who suffer from anemia due to the lack of B12/iron (linked).

A lot of vegans, a big majority of them, don't put in the work needed to do it right.

[Red-Soldier]

Is organic farming harmful?

It's a low input, low output system.  Meaning it doesn't produce that much food.

Meat farming in general though is a very inefficient way of farming.  Only 10% of energy gets transported along the foodchain/web.  That's why you need huge amounts of land and feed for livestock.

Energy transportation is much more efficient in aquatic, and plant based systems.

[Rhi]

Is organic farming harmful?

Don't know if it's harmful, but it's definitely a racket. Fair trade is even worse. Marketing ploys set up to put money in the pockets of the organisations that "certify".

[Red-Soldier]

Don't know if it's harmful, but it's definitely a racket. Fair trade is even worse. Marketing ploys set up to put money in the pockets of the organisations that "certify".

Effects of Fairtrade on the livelihoods of poor rural workers

We conducted a survey among workers in the cocoa sector in Cote d’Ivoire and their employers, distinguishing between farm workers and cooperative workers. Fairtrade improves wages and reduces poverty among cooperative workers, but not among farm workers, even though the latter are particularly deprived. At the cooperative level, labour standards are regularly monitored by Fairtrade. Certification also helps cooperatives increase the services offered to their members, which leads to more and better-paid employment at the cooperative level. At the farm level, inspections of labour standards are more costly, difficult and rare. Thus, Fairtrade hardly affects traditional employment modalities at the farm level even when farmers themselves benefit from certification. Ensuring that labour standards are met at all levels may require innovative and more efficient monitoring approaches.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0311-5

Fairtrade Certification and Livelihood Impacts on Small-scale Coffee Producers in a Tribal Community of India

Can Fairtrade certification improve farmers’ livelihoods in small-scale coffee farming tribal communities in India? Has Fairtrade contributed to capacity-building among the farmers? To answer these questions, household data of 256 coffee farmers from a tribal coffee-producing community in southern India was collected in 2010. Using the propensity score matching technique, the empirical findings show that Fairtrade certification has a positive impact on farmers’ income. However, the incidence of poverty in the community is very high, with 84% of the certified farmers being extremely poor. Some improvement in the livelihoods of certified farmers has occurred from higher and assured farm gate prices, regular collection of coffee from the village centers that reduces travel costs, and from the social Fairtrade premium. But while the benefits are modest and the process is slow, challenges remain in terms of improving the effectiveness and management of the cooperative system, as well as raising the awareness of farmers about Fairtrade certification. There is a need to strengthen the positive impacts created by Fairtrade certification by collaboration between the cooperative and local government to enhance the technical, financial and human capacities of the coffee cooperative members.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1093/aepp/ppw006

[shravan.satya]

We conducted a survey among workers in the cocoa sector in Cote d’Ivoire and their employers, distinguishing between farm workers and cooperative workers. Fairtrade improves wages and reduces poverty among cooperative workers, but not among farm workers, even though the latter are particularly deprived. At the cooperative level, labour standards are regularly monitored by Fairtrade. Certification also helps cooperatives increase the services offered to their members, which leads to more and better-paid employment at the cooperative level. At the farm level, inspections of labour standards are more costly, difficult and rare. Thus, Fairtrade hardly affects traditional employment modalities at the farm level even when farmers themselves benefit from certification. Ensuring that labour standards are met at all levels may require innovative and more efficient monitoring approaches.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0311-5

Can Fairtrade certification improve farmers’ livelihoods in small-scale coffee farming tribal communities in India? Has Fairtrade contributed to capacity-building among the farmers? To answer these questions, household data of 256 coffee farmers from a tribal coffee-producing community in southern India was collected in 2010. Using the propensity score matching technique, the empirical findings show that Fairtrade certification has a positive impact on farmers’ income. However, the incidence of poverty in the community is very high, with 84% of the certified farmers being extremely poor. Some improvement in the livelihoods of certified farmers has occurred from higher and assured farm gate prices, regular collection of coffee from the village centers that reduces travel costs, and from the social Fairtrade premium. But while the benefits are modest and the process is slow, challenges remain in terms of improving the effectiveness and management of the cooperative system, as well as raising the awareness of farmers about Fairtrade certification. There is a need to strengthen the positive impacts created by Fairtrade certification by collaboration between the cooperative and local government to enhance the technical, financial and human capacities of the coffee cooperative members.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1093/aepp/ppw006

This is useful information. Thanks!

[Red-Soldier]

Is organic farming harmful?

Does organic farming reduce environmental impacts? – A meta-analysis of European research

Organic farming practices have been promoted as, inter alia, reducing the environmental impacts of agriculture. This meta-analysis systematically analyses published studies that compare environmental impacts of organic and conventional farming in Europe. The results show that organic farming practices generally have positive impacts on the environment per unit of area, but not necessarily per product unit. Organic farms tend to have higher soil organic matter content and lower nutrient losses (nitrogen leaching, nitrous oxide emissions and ammonia emissions) per unit of field area. However, ammonia emissions, nitrogen leaching and nitrous oxide emissions per product unit were higher from organic systems. Organic systems had lower energy requirements, but higher land use, eutrophication potential and acidification potential per product unit. The variation within the results across different studies was wide due to differences in the systems compared and research methods used. The only impacts that were found to differ significantly between the systems were soil organic matter content, nitrogen leaching, nitrous oxide emissions per unit of field area, energy use and land use. Most of the studies that compared biodiversity in organic and conventional farming demonstrated lower environmental impacts from organic farming. The key challenges in conventional farming are to improve soil quality (by versatile crop rotations and additions of organic material), recycle nutrients and enhance and protect biodiversity. In organic farming, the main challenges are to improve the nutrient management and increase yields. In order to reduce the environmental impacts of farming in Europe, research efforts and policies should be targeted to developing farming systems that produce high yields with low negative environmental impacts drawing on techniques from both organic and conventional systems.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301479712004264

A comparative study of some environmental impacts of conventional and organic farming in Australia

The provision of food causes environmental impacts that range from local through to global in scale. Organic farming, used in general here to mean farming practices with a greater emphasis on long-term sustainability, is one general approach to reduce these impacts. Whilst organic farming may be argued to be superior to conventional farming on the basis of local impacts, it is not often clear how organic farming performs relative to conventional farming in terms of wider, global impacts. In this paper we present a comparative assessment of on-farm and indirect energy consumption, land disturbance, water use, employment, and emissions of greenhouse gases, NOx, and SO2 of organic and conventional farming in Australia. A hybrid input-output-based life-cycle technique is employed in order to ensure a complete coverage of indirect requirements originating from all upstream production stages. Using data from a detailed survey of organic farms, the results show that direct energy use, energy related emissions, and greenhouse gas emissions are higher for the organic farming sample than for a comparable conventional farm sample. Direct water use and employment are significantly lower for the organic farms than for the conventional farms. However, the indirect contributions for all factors are much higher for the conventional farms, leading to their total impacts being substantially higher. This shows that indirect effects must be taken into account in the consideration of the environmental consequences of farming, in particular for energy use and greenhouse gas emissions, where the majority of impacts usually occur off-farm. Subject to yield uncertainties for organic versus conventional farming, from the sample here we can conclude that in addition to their local benefits, organic farming approaches can reduce the total water, energy and greenhouse gases involved in food production.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308521X05001939

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Don't know if it's harmful, but it's definitely a racket. Fair trade is even worse. Marketing ploys set up to put money in the pockets of the organisations that "certify".

But without certification, there would be no assurance of standards at all. Organic certification is certainly expensive, and the Soil Association's regulations and standards don't always make much sense for smaller producers, but the checks are rigorous and give the UK a higher standard of organic production than most nations.

I think arguing that these schemes are mere marketing ploys is unnecessarily cynical - these bodies arose from very good intentions, even if they inevitably become self-perpetuating to some degree.

[Dull Tools]

However a balanced diet which contains a moderate amount of animal products would do all of it, right?

The B12 in meat is from supplements given to the animals you eat. The only difference is that the supplement for milk alternatives is put directly into the food you consume. So why not just take the supplement directly?

[Passmaster Molby]

The B12 in meat is from supplements given to the animals you eat. The only difference is that the supplement for milk alternatives is put directly into the food you consume. So why not just take the supplement directly?

Not sure free range animals that are able to roam the fields and eat grass all day are given supplements because they don’t need them. It’s only animals raised in awful cramped barns and fed grain all day that need vitamin shots because the crap diet they are fed doesn’t provide sufficient nutrition.

Eating a nutrient dense diet that gives your body everything it needs to stay healthy (essential amino acids, essential fatty acids and plenty of micronutrients) is the best way to stay fit and healthy. For me the best source of these are naturally produced animal based foods and possibly some healthy green vegetables too.

[electricghost]

The B12 in meat is from supplements given to the animals you eat. The only difference is that the supplement for milk alternatives is put directly into the food you consume. So why not just take the supplement directly?

B12 is synthesised in the rumen of vegetarian animals like cows, it is not given to them as a supplement, it is a biological process. We also produce B12, but we can't absorb it so rely on eating animal products or supplements.

[Dull Tools]

B12 is synthesised in the rumen of vegetarian animals like cows, it is not given to them as a supplement, it is a biological process. We also produce B12, but we can't absorb it so rely on eating animal products or supplements.

Depends what they are fed on. They don't have to be supplemented if they are 100% grass-fed, which barely any cattle are. They are also pumped full of antibiotics and tons of other supplements.

The fact everyone is focussing on the B12 shows how few issues there are with being vegan. The same can't be said for dairy and meat products.

[daveypauly]

Thought most B12 was given as supplements to animals now, due to a lot of soil missing it these days.

EDIT: Apparently, ruminants can innately have sufficient bacteria to potentially generate enough B12 without needing it from grazing.

[CraigDS]

They aren't supplemented with B12, they can be supplemented with cobalt which is required for the production of b12. This can be down to environmental factors effecting the amount of cobalt in the soil.

Also, most the animals who are supplemented with B12 are dairy producing animals, because it increases yields. So no meat producing animals.

[wampa1]

Meat tastes good 

to be honest, that's way more valid a reason than throwing scientific journals and studies around.  No-one is eating meat because of an in-depth essay they read.

[Passmaster Molby]

Depends what they are fed on. They don't have to be supplemented if they are 100% grass-fed, which barely any cattle are. They are also pumped full of antibiotics and tons of other supplements.

The fact everyone is focussing on the B12 shows how few issues there are with being vegan. The same can't be said for dairy and meat products.

What issues are there with Meat and Dairy products - foods that Human's have eaten since man walked the earth?

Just how did man survive, develop and become the dominant species on this planet? By eating animal products, and for people in the very recent history to suddenly decide its bad for us just makes no sense.

If there are problems with the modern diet then its not meat and dairy that's for sure. The big problem is too much sugar and refined grains along with man made "vegetable" oils and chemical additives in food that the human body was never designed to deal with. For many, if not most people, these cause major health issues in most people.

[electricghost]

What issues are there with Meat and Dairy products - foods that Human's have eaten since man walked the earth?

Just how did man survive, develop and become the dominant species on this planet? By eating animal products, and for people in the very recent history to suddenly decide its bad for us just makes no sense.

If there are problems with the modern diet then its not meat and dairy that's for sure. The big problem is too much sugar and refined grains along with man made "vegetable" oils and chemical additives in food that the human body was never designed to deal with. For many, if not most people, these cause major health issues in most people.

Is correct

[daveypauly]

Don't really agree with the thinking that it got mankind where we are, so it must be all good and not to be questioned.

It was definitely a turbo charge in our development as a species, but doesn't mean that it's fine to carry on, especially at the scale we are doing it (both in dietary terms, as meat is far too abundant in western countries and in terms of the environment) and the implications it has.

Strip all of this discussion away and we are left with the basic tenet that people eat meat because it provides them sensory pleasure.  You can be morally okay with that, but to credibly claim that there are other reasons these days is a tad disingenuous.

[CraigDS]

Personally I think we should all be allocated a man made gruel which contains all the calories and nutrients we need. We can fuck off all "food" then.

[Dull Tools]

What issues are there with Meat and Dairy products - foods that Human's have eaten since man walked the earth?

Just how did man survive, develop and become the dominant species on this planet? By eating animal products, and for people in the very recent history to suddenly decide its bad for us just makes no sense.

If there are problems with the modern diet then its not meat and dairy that's for sure. The big problem is too much sugar and refined grains along with man made "vegetable" oils and chemical additives in food that the human body was never designed to deal with. For many, if not most people, these cause major health issues in most people.

We would not have been eating meat and dairy in the way we do now. We almost certainly wouldn't have drunk milk or had cheese until relatively recently. It would have stopped once we stopped breast feeding, like every other mammal.

We also would not have had anywhere near as much meat.

As I have said, I don't think it is necessary for all people to cut meat from their diet to be healthy. To say dairy and meat don't cause major health issues is deluded.

But it is easy to do now and means we can stop killing animals for our food and can help save the planet. As you said, we have evolved to the smartest animals which also means we don't have to act like we all live like cavemen.

[Dull Tools]

Don't really agree with the thinking that it got mankind where we are, so it must be all good and not to be questioned.

It was definitely a turbo charge in our development as a species, but doesn't mean that it's fine to carry on, especially at the scale we are doing it (both in dietary terms, as meat is far too abundant in western countries and in terms of the environment) and the implications it has.

Strip all of this discussion away and we are left with the basic tenet that people eat meat because it provides them sensory pleasure.  You can be morally okay with that, but to credibly claim that there are other reasons these days is a tad disingenuous.

This is exactly right. Worded much better than I could ever put it.

[daveypauly]

Personally I think we should all be allocated a man made gruel which contains all the calories and nutrients we need. We can fuck off all "food" then.

Matrix style.

We'll have lab meat and milk in a bit anyway and all of this chat will be binned.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

Personally I think we should all be allocated a man made gruel which contains all the calories and nutrients we need. We can fuck off all "food" then.

I believe it's called McNasty's.

[RideTheWalrus]

Just because we've 'always done it and we're still around', isn't really the greatest argument re; dairy especially.

Dairy is something that only a few thousand years ago humans were able to actually stomach without getting sick, and if a quarter of the human population still can't stomach it, I'd say, personally, it's maybe something that we shouldn't really be consuming. Any nutrients that dairy can give you, you can better get from other sources.

The main issue for me is the ethical side of it, and I think consuming dairy is wrong. Cows have been bred to the point where they can barely walk, and need to be milked constantly or risk serious health issues. The idea of drinking another animals lactate has always creeped me out, like I get eating meat in more ways than consuming dairy, it's something lots of animals do, but no other animal will drink the lactate of another species.

I do sometimes eat meat, but I do think we'll soon get to the point where substitution meat is better sourced (not difficult considering how most meat is sourced), and as nice as meat can be.

Just my two cents.

[CraigDS]

Love a nice glass of ice cold lactate.

[shravan.satya]

What issues are there with Meat and Dairy products - foods that Human's have eaten since man walked the earth?

Just how did man survive, develop and become the dominant species on this planet? By eating animal products, and for people in the very recent history to suddenly decide its bad for us just makes no sense.

If there are problems with the modern diet then its not meat and dairy that's for sure. The big problem is too much sugar and refined grains along with man made "vegetable" oils and chemical additives in food that the human body was never designed to deal with. For many, if not most people, these cause major health issues in most people.

We have not been eating dairy products from the beginning. That is a wrong statement. We have been gatherers before we've been hunters. Humans needed to evolve to build shard enough tool tips to master hunting. It took a few thousand years. However, you are right, meat was consumed by pretty much all humans, but the frequency and the quantity of consumption was so different than it is today. Even the modern day hunter gatherer communities in Papua New Guinea, Africa and other places primarily rely on their vegetables and fruits for most of their daily needs. There are a few documentaries that show their food inventories and their lifestyle. They do consume meat, but you will be amazed by how little the amount is.

Moreover, most of us live a sedentary lifestyle in the modern world, which calls for reduction in saturated fats. Instead we upped our intake of meat and dairy. Red meat is considered a class 3 carcinogen in most countries and processed meat is classified a class 1 carcinogen by WHO. The cancer risks of excessive meat and dairy consumption are real. Don't fall for the sugar narrative. Just a smoke screen. Sugar is bad, but its effects are nothing compared to the ones meat and dairy have on your body. Big meat and dairy industries have some of the most powerful lobbies that can influence these narratives. "Big Broccoli" isn't rich enough to compete with that.

[shravan.satya]

Just because we've 'always done it and we're still around', isn't really the greatest argument re; dairy especially.

Dairy is something that only a few thousand years ago humans were able to actually stomach without getting sick, and if a quarter of the human population still can't stomach it, I'd say, personally, it's maybe something that we shouldn't really be consuming. Any nutrients that dairy can give you, you can better get from other sources.

The main issue for me is the ethical side of it, and I think consuming dairy is wrong. Cows have been bred to the point where they can barely walk, and need to be milked constantly or risk serious health issues. The idea of drinking another animals lactate has always creeped me out, like I get eating meat in more ways than consuming dairy, it's something lots of animals do, but no other animal will drink the lactate of another species.

I do sometimes eat meat, but I do think we'll soon get to the point where substitution meat is better sourced (not difficult considering how most meat is sourced), and as nice as meat can be.

Just my two cents.

Just had my lunch, Spaghetti Bolognese with impossible meat. Incredible.

[RideTheWalrus]

Just had my lunch, Spaghetti Bolognese with impossible meat. Incredible.

Vegan and meat substitutes are getting better at a lightning pace, it's really cool to see. It's all so much better than it was even 5 years ago. Linda McCartney's meatballs are great I find, the one thing I haven't found a nice vegan version yet of are sausages

[idontknow]

Anyway shop shuts at 9 so I can't get a cheese pasty.

But Mad Cowboy Disease website is gone, very sad, I read it way back in the 2000s when I still ate meat.

But I presume he is Mad Cowboy Howard Lymon.
I don't know what he says under that, but his website I can remember - arrogance of his generation, tax refunds, dodging any chemical checks, and real pricing - 1999 a 99% burger had a real cost around $12, plus all the dumped shit, a swathe across USA from  NS Carolina to California, dumped in the ocean.

But I ate my eat then.

Now I don't, haven't for 11 years.
I don't care what anybody does.

But when people question me I tell them I only eat what I can catch.
It's surprising how few understand me.


By the way, as a PS, there is a great site on vegan beers that I cannot find, I've looked, but All Shepherd Neame is vegan (Bishops Finger), Abbott is in bottles but cask there may be traces.

[shravan.satya]

Vegan and meat substitutes are getting better at a lightning pace, it's really cool to see. It's all so much better than it was even 5 years ago. Linda McCartney's meatballs are great I find, the one thing I haven't found a nice vegan version yet of are sausages

I don't know where you live, but here in Michigan, it was almost impossible to get vegan meat substitutes 3 years ago. These days, about 10% of the meat aisle is dedicated to vegan meats and sausages in health food stores. Impossible meat is eons ahead of everyone else. Beyond meat is okay and its stock is a blockbuster in NASDAQ, but I find it has some way to catchup with impossible meat. There are some really good sausages here. Fieldstone is a vegan sausage company and Tofurky has stepped its game in sausages as well. However, they are still not as close as the ground meat substitutes are. They do just fine as condiments in pasta and other dishes though. Taste just like chorizo.

[Peabee]

Just because we've 'always done it and we're still around', isn't really the greatest argument re; dairy especially.

Dairy is something that only a few thousand years ago humans were able to actually stomach without getting sick, and if a quarter of the human population still can't stomach it, I'd say, personally, it's maybe something that we shouldn't really be consuming. Any nutrients that dairy can give you, you can better get from other sources.

The main issue for me is the ethical side of it, and I think consuming dairy is wrong. Cows have been bred to the point where they can barely walk, and need to be milked constantly or risk serious health issues. The idea of drinking another animals lactate has always creeped me out, like I get eating meat in more ways than consuming dairy, it's something lots of animals do, but no other animal will drink the lactate of another species.

I do sometimes eat meat, but I do think we'll soon get to the point where substitution meat is better sourced (not difficult considering how most meat is sourced), and as nice as meat can be.

Just my two cents.

I love a nice cold glass of creamy Jersey milk.

I do eat a lot of plant based food these days as there’s more and more choice that’s really tasty.  Sometimes, in a restaurant, the vegan burger is the tastiest on the menu as the chef has put some thought into it. I do love a juicy cheeseburger though when done well, but I usually go for the vegan option if I can and it’s not just some Quorn shite.

Making more choice and tasty choices will be the best way to win some people over if the ethical argument doesn’t bother them.