Author Topic: Fuel price  (Read 9752 times)

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #160 on: August 10, 2022, 04:36:55 pm »
Well seeing as the big players are making an absolute killing and boasting record prices, I doubt they would go bust. Rather its thr smaller utility companies

How does the average figure of £4200 compare to the rest of the world. I know its high everywhere, but are we unique in terms of energy prices vs median salaries
I'm not defending the government on this one as they made absolutely no provision for this happening.  If it's anything like the pandemic planning they probably did have a plan but shredded it as it was too much like hard work.

If every customer transferring from a smaller utility company represented a loss to the big players then they simply wouldn't have taken them on.  Those customers would have been left without utilities.  It was only by rising the fuel cap that the big players would take on (and, of course, fleece...) those additional customers.

It's very hard to compare that £4,200 figure as it's a speculative forecast and I'm not aware of other countries having done similar forecasts.  On a more general level inflation across the EU is about the same, maybe slightly lower, than the UK.  That is skewed though by the east of the EU bloc having wild inflation with many 20%+ due to proximity to Russia/Ukraine and reliance on trade with those two nations.

France has capped energy price rises at 4% until the end of 2022 (compared to around 300% for the UK) but they are in the unique position of having the state-owned EDF and having less reliance on gas due to investing in nuclear power.  I guess Germany would be a good comparison to the UK but that would need somebody more informed on German economics than me  ;D

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #161 on: August 10, 2022, 04:44:17 pm »
I'm not defending the government on this one as they made absolutely no provision for this happening.  If it's anything like the pandemic planning they probably did have a plan but shredded it as it was too much like hard work.

If every customer transferring from a smaller utility company represented a loss to the big players then they simply wouldn't have taken them on.  Those customers would have been left without utilities.  It was only by rising the fuel cap that the big players would take on (and, of course, fleece...) those additional customers.

It's myunderstanding that the price cap rising isn't in any way a political decision - it's been updated every 6 months since it was introduced based on a formula using energy prices over the preceding months. It's just it's obviously been in the news so much because of the massive rises.

The only change made by the government was to change the interval between changes from 6 months to 3.

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #162 on: August 10, 2022, 04:50:04 pm »
It's myunderstanding that the price cap rising isn't in any way a political decision - it's been updated every 6 months since it was introduced based on a formula using energy prices over the preceding months. It's just it's obviously been in the news so much because of the massive rises.

The only change made by the government was to change the interval between changes from 6 months to 3.
My understanding also.  It's the Ofgem algorithm that dictates and it's based on that published algorithm, as I understand it, that people have been able to confidently predict the cap going to over £4k.

The government have had many opportunities to intervene although not on the price cap itself.  I'd have hoped they would have had a "worse case scenario" plan for the price spiking and demolishing the energy market but apparently not.  At its simplest they could have just positioned themselves as a buffer, paying anything over a certain threshold from taxpayer money up to the amount of the price cap.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 04:51:47 pm by thaddeus »

Offline Machae

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #163 on: August 10, 2022, 06:22:14 pm »



France has capped energy price rises at 4% until the end of 2022 (compared to around 300% for the UK) but they are in the unique position of having the state-owned EDF and having less reliance on gas due to investing in nuclear power.  I guess Germany would be a good comparison to the UK but that would need somebody more informed on German economics than me  ;D

That wouldn't be allowed to happen in the UK because that's commie/marxist ideology. Daily Mail would have everyone frothing at the mouth

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #164 on: August 10, 2022, 06:37:27 pm »
That wouldn't be allowed to happen in the UK because that's commie/marxist ideology. Daily Mail would have everyone frothing at the mouth
The Daily Telegraph ran a big piece yesterday praising the French for it  :o

I'm sure the same newspaper would have torn to pieces any politician that suggested putting the building blocks in place for it to happen (nationalising utilities, investing in nuclear energy).

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #165 on: August 10, 2022, 08:04:17 pm »
Here in Ireland the government will probably give each household a one time payment to help with the bills around the same time the utility companies will increase their bills by the same amount. Might as well transfer any aid directly to the energy company bank account.
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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #166 on: August 10, 2022, 08:06:14 pm »
The Daily Telegraph ran a big piece yesterday praising the French for it  :o

I'm sure the same newspaper would have torn to pieces any politician that suggested putting the building blocks in place for it to happen (nationalising utilities, investing in nuclear energy).

I’m sure a lot of hypocritical Telegraph readers have second homes in France, if not fully fledged dual nationality.

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #167 on: August 11, 2022, 12:37:41 am »
If too many went bust there wouldn't be enough left to supply the utilities across the nation.  As with the banking crisis in 2008 there were some sacrificial lambs (Northern Rock, People's Energy) but others were too big to fail.

It's a sorry reflection of successive governments that the good times mean booming profits for business and the bad times mean crippling costs for taxpayers - both directly through paying more and through, at some point, increased taxation to fund any government interventions.  That model has been accepted as best practice pretty much across the world.
the first paragraph is the reason why energy should never be in the hands of a company that needs to make a profit.

The supply of Gas, Water and Electricity should not be a way for executives to get rich at the expense of the consumer
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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #168 on: August 11, 2022, 12:50:44 am »
the first paragraph is the reason why energy should never be in the hands of a company that needs to make a profit.

The supply of Gas, Water and Electricity should not be a way for executives to get rich at the expense of the consumer

Putting water aside as it’s a no brainer that it should be nationalised, energy is going to be very tricky until we move away from imports of fossil fuels to provide our energy because we don’t have end to end control of the whole market. When electricity was provided mostly by coal (nationalised) and there was plenty of oil and gas in the North Sea it would have been possible but if we nationalise the energy retailers we will still need to buy gas from Norway, the Middle East etc all that change is it’s the government doing the buying rather then a private company. The only way I can see it work is that the government starts to build and owns it’s own renewable and nuclear capacity to compete with the privatised companies.
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Offline stewil007

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #169 on: August 11, 2022, 09:04:07 am »
So i got an email from InstaVolt saying that they are increasing the price of all their EV charging points - now going up to 66p/kWh.

Another sizeable jump in the price out on the road.  If external chargers are peoples only option, then the price is starting to become comparable to petrol.

It will be interesting to see when electric prices drop if these suppliers drop the price in line with those decreases.

Offline Machae

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #170 on: August 11, 2022, 01:45:14 pm »
Was going to always happen and predictable. Petrol and Diesel become more expensive, so people ditch those cars and shift to electric. Now electric prices will increase

Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #171 on: August 11, 2022, 02:20:39 pm »
Was going to always happen and predictable. Petrol and Diesel become more expensive, so people ditch those cars and shift to electric. Now electric prices will increase

Yes, because our electricity is tied into the same bullshit racket/system.

Offline Machae

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #172 on: August 11, 2022, 02:36:50 pm »
Yeah, but I think the prices to charge your car would have increased anyway. Not that buying an electric car isn't good/bad but those thinking they would take advantage of low prices, wouldve been in for a shock (pardon the pun) when a few hundred thousand others move to electric too

Offline Elmo!

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #173 on: August 11, 2022, 02:40:17 pm »
Was going to always happen and predictable. Petrol and Diesel become more expensive, so people ditch those cars and shift to electric. Now electric prices will increase

The difference is in the longer term we have some semblance of national control over electricity prices and aren't at the mercy of OPEC.

Offline stewil007

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #174 on: August 11, 2022, 02:55:27 pm »
Yeah, but I think the prices to charge your car would have increased anyway. Not that buying an electric car isn't good/bad but those thinking they would take advantage of low prices, would've been in for a shock (pardon the pun) when a few hundred thousand others move to electric too

This in particular affects those that don't have the option of home charging and have access to off-peak rates.


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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #175 on: August 12, 2022, 02:23:19 pm »
Yeah, but I think the prices to charge your car would have increased anyway. Not that buying an electric car isn't good/bad but those thinking they would take advantage of low prices, wouldve been in for a shock (pardon the pun) when a few hundred thousand others move to electric too


I ordered an EV in March, at a price that was already about £30-£40/month more than the optimum price the previous autumn. I was bloody annoyed. It's due for delivery Sept/Oct.

The cheapest monthly lease price for the same car now is over £70 more than I'll be paying.

I'm less annoyed now.


(Oh, and I'm also on a fixed leccy rate at home until Sept 23 [smug grin])




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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #176 on: August 12, 2022, 09:06:04 pm »
Putting water aside as it’s a no brainer that it should be nationalised, energy is going to be very tricky until we move away from imports of fossil fuels to provide our energy because we don’t have end to end control of the whole market. When electricity was provided mostly by coal (nationalised) and there was plenty of oil and gas in the North Sea it would have been possible but if we nationalise the energy retailers we will still need to buy gas from Norway, the Middle East etc all that change is it’s the government doing the buying rather then a private company. The only way I can see it work is that the government starts to build and owns it’s own renewable and nuclear capacity to compete with the privatised companies.


I work as an economics consultant, advising utilities and regulators on setting prices.

The regulators have a primary duty to protect current and future consumers interests. Loose in description, but clear that this is a priority over and above profits. Ensuring these companies are financeable is also a primary duty, meaning that an efficient company should be able to raise debt at a reasonable rate as they have a reasonable credit rating.

The debate on privatisation vs nationalisation misses the need for major investment that has occurred ove the last 30 years. Billions that hasn’t come from tax-payers. At an expense of a “small” reasonable return (which is benchmarked by regulators). Without this investment, infrastructure would be worse. However, a byproduct of natural monopolies is “information asymmetry” (ie the companies trying to pull a fast one where the regulator doesn’t have sufficient information).

I acted both sides of the fence at the last water price control - at a major water company, numbers were predicted without much detail, but at Ofwat those numbers were heavily scrutinised and slashed without too much of a scooby. Whilst at the company I was thinking they’re taking the mick - it should be nationalised. At the regulator, I had exactly the opposite view.

For me, a privatised system is more efficient. Nobody is held to ransom as the price control provides an allowance that trade unions can’t argue with whilst providing the allowance for investment. More simply, in absence of the private investment, the water system would be severely underfunded. We’re heading into a dark period and water companies will undoubtedly get a lot of stick, some of it fairly - but the counter factual is significantly worse. In the UK we have one of the best water infrastructure and a price that whilst expensive is valuable. I’m in Greece today - I can’t drink tap water or flush toilet paper and I’m spending 4£ on bottled water. It’s about £1 a day at home. Water is an essential service,but  the cost of it is less under the current model than it would be under a public model. I know many may disagree. Happy to debate




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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #177 on: September 9, 2022, 04:18:49 pm »
Diesel Costco GtHowarth St - £170.9
Diesel Asda Hunts Cross - £176.9
Diesel Shell Hunts Cross - £183.9

live prices this afternoon,, how on earth do we have a £0.13 variation in this day and age within 7 or 8 miles  ? 
it’s got nothing to do with supply and demand,, who uses Shell ? or even BP which is notoriously the most expensive

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #178 on: September 9, 2022, 04:25:42 pm »
Diesel Costco GtHowarth St - £170.9
Diesel Asda Hunts Cross - £176.9
Diesel Shell Hunts Cross - £183.9

live prices this afternoon,, how on earth do we have a £0.13 variation in this day and age within 7 or 8 miles  ? 
it’s got nothing to do with supply and demand,, who uses Shell ? or even BP which is notoriously the most expensive


A price difference of 14p between petrol and diesel is a pisser, too
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #179 on: September 9, 2022, 06:18:53 pm »
Diesel Costco GtHowarth St - £170.9
Diesel Asda Hunts Cross - £176.9
Diesel Shell Hunts Cross - £183.9

live prices this afternoon,, how on earth do we have a £0.13 variation in this day and age within 7 or 8 miles  ? 
it’s got nothing to do with supply and demand,, who uses Shell ? or even BP which is notoriously the most expensive
Murco garage near me… £164.9 Murco….cheap!  How?
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #180 on: September 9, 2022, 06:24:41 pm »
Murco garage near me… £164.9 Murco….cheap!  How?

Is that the petrol or diesel price?

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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #181 on: September 9, 2022, 06:25:15 pm »
Is that the petrol or diesel price?


Petrol… that’s the cheapest round by me by a few pence
« Last Edit: September 9, 2022, 06:28:11 pm by TepidT2O »
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Offline gemofabird

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #182 on: September 16, 2022, 09:12:14 pm »
Oil has been around $92 for a month. How are we still paying these prices
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Fuel price
« Reply #183 on: September 16, 2022, 09:40:51 pm »
Oil has been around $92 for a month. How are we still paying these prices
Well there’s a couple of reasons…

1. Greed.

2. The US dollar exchange rate is absolutely  killing us.
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