Author Topic: What are we transitioning to?  (Read 5805 times)

Offline DonkeyWan

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What are we transitioning to?
« on: February 4, 2023, 08:43:35 pm »
I think most people can see that Liverpool are in a difficult place trhis season, for a whole host of reasons; fatigue, age, recruitment, injury etc. Most fans now also accept that it isn't just a case of a player here, a tweak there, that the team is going to need a complete rebuild, due to age profile and persistent injury issues for players who have given  lot over the last few years. I have seen this referred to as 'transition' (i.e. a shift from one team to a new set of players, possibly with a different style of play). Arguably this started last year with the introduction of Diaz, and then Carvalho and Nunez in the summer.  It would appear Klopp started the transformation up top and left the defence and midfield until next summer. Part of the frustration with the winter window was the lack of progress on this transition and the seeming acceptance of a year off by the squad and management. It got me wondering as to how the transition had gone so far and what the new team might look like.

To that end I got the squad list and divided it into two parts by age (27 being the arbitrary cut off point I used between the two to represent the peak age). I then sorted by position (GK, D, M, F) and finally, excluded Mello (as the news appears to be he will be back to Juventus in the summer). I then highlighted two sets of players: those whose contract ends this year and those under 27 who could be considered regular first team players. It looks like this:



I think the interesting bits for me are as follows:

1. Phillips and Williams are unlikely to be renewed or replaced.
2. A plan might be there for Matip, but probably won't be executed until 2024
3. Of the five front men under the age of 27, ALL of them could play LWF and only Jota and Nunez could be considered for a central role. It's a surprising concentration (making the Gakpo decision even more inexplicable). I wonder if one could be converted to a left wing back for cover?
4. The above probably explains why ther is so much talk of Firmino renewing. It's certainly an area where, having a Firmino makes a lot of sense, particularly when you look at the age/contract profile.
5. The lack of young, experienced midfielders is obvious, as are the contracts expiring for Keita, Chamberlain and Milner. It's a clear area for recruitment in the summer, and likely points to the mindset of the manager when he was planning recruitment in the summer/winter of 2022.
6. Had you said during the summer that Klopp's plan was to let the then underperforming Keita, Chamberlain and (aging) Milner go, Keep Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago for another year or two and recruit some new midfielders in the summer, most people would have nodded in agreement. The subsequent loss of form of Thiago, Henderson and (especially) Fabinho has completely undermined these plans, and it's pretty obvious Klopp is now nursing the team until the summer with a view to getting  bodies in then.

All of the above is frustrating, but at least it appears that a transition plan is in place. It's still hard explain why the transfer team decided to switch their intertest from a midfielder at the start of Summer 2022 to a series of left-footed forwards by the end of the following transfer window. It also seems extraordinary to ignore the gaping holes in the middle during the last window, but at least there is the semblance of a plan in place, eventhough it appears much longer term than most would prefer. Ultimately though, to quote the sage Mike Tyson, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” There is an argument Liverpool needed to be more flexible, especially when the problems in the team were becoming so detrimental.
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Offline Garnier

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #1 on: February 4, 2023, 08:53:14 pm »
Nothing as of yet, because the coaching staff are only just now realising that there's a need to transition.

We're still crashing the car.
The change is cast

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #2 on: February 4, 2023, 08:53:46 pm »
The Championship?

Offline redmark

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #3 on: February 4, 2023, 09:03:11 pm »
The danger, I think, is that the 'plan' is more or less the basic plan that would have been in place since 2019, but was delayed for a couple of reasons - 'one more push' after 18/19, followed by COVID.

The plan then, perhaps, is nearly 4 years old. Some names will have changed in that time, but the idea hasn't. The problem is, the PL has changed a bit.

Newcastle have become an oil club, Chelsea have got new owners with Abramovich's original ambition, United and Arsenal have slowly stumbled into competence. Those factors provide opportunity for us (in that more clubs can compete with City, on the pitch and financially), as well as challenges.

Equally, unless I'm imagining it, the league has got a touch quicker and more physical. Faced with a few years of the domination of the gegenpress, other clubs have worked on patterns of play and profiles of player to bypass the press. Power and pace in the counter has become more effective and quicker, just as we had started to emphasise possession and control to break down bus parkers - who now have jet powered outriders. We're suddenly ineffective at either way of playing; we can't compete physically.

The column on the left is fine; the basis of a decent squad, with a handful of names that anyone can argue about specific names. There are probably legitimate questions about whether it will generate the 5 or 6 really top players that you need to consistently win trophies, perhaps. But until we shift most of the column to the right, we can't add that quality in the age group to the left, financially. The worry is, though, that we're working to an outdated plan of what that squad needs to look like.
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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #4 on: February 4, 2023, 09:08:43 pm »
Klopp’s never had to transition a side before but all in all that shouldn’t be too difficult. The problem is it feels like he is transitioning the club.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #5 on: February 4, 2023, 09:16:08 pm »
"The greatest argument against democracy is to have a five minute conversation  with the average voter. "

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #6 on: February 4, 2023, 09:17:01 pm »
The danger, I think, is that the 'plan' is more or less the basic plan that would have been in place since 2019, but was delayed for a couple of reasons - 'one more push' after 18/19, followed by COVID.

The plan then, perhaps, is nearly 4 years old. Some names will have changed in that time, but the idea hasn't. The problem is, the PL has changed a bit.

Newcastle have become an oil club, Chelsea have got new owners with Abramovich's original ambition, United and Arsenal have slowly stumbled into competence. Those factors provide opportunity for us (in that more clubs can compete with City, on the pitch and financially), as well as challenges.

Equally, unless I'm imagining it, the league has got a touch quicker and more physical. Faced with a few years of the domination of the gegenpress, other clubs have worked on patterns of play and profiles of player to bypass the press. Power and pace in the counter has become more effective and quicker, just as we had started to emphasise possession and control to break down bus parkers - who now have jet powered outriders. We're suddenly ineffective at either way of playing; we can't compete physically.

The column on the left is fine; the basis of a decent squad, with a handful of names that anyone can argue about specific names. There are probably legitimate questions about whether it will generate the 5 or 6 really top players that you need to consistently win trophies, perhaps. But until we shift most of the column to the right, we can't add that quality in the age group to the left, financially. The worry is, though, that we're working to an outdated plan of what that squad needs to look like.

I’m not convinced it has got more physical. I suspect we’ve just gotten slower and less physical. Salah, Firmino, Fabinho, Henderson, Milner, Thiago, Van Dijk, Keita, Ox and Matip are all in physical decline at this point. The majority of our team every week is a little bit below its physical peak. It doesn’t take much for us to start looking slow and weak. You combine that with some bizarre lethargy from Trent and, perhaps, Robbo, some forwards unsuited to a high press and some youngsters who aren’t very athletic, and we suddenly look like old men/ children vs world clas athletes.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #7 on: February 4, 2023, 09:17:34 pm »
Really anyone's guess at the moment. This isn't even a transition - it's just a wasted season. If the summer window goes OK, next season will be a transition. We're a ways away from competing for anything anytime soon.
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Offline deano2727

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #8 on: February 4, 2023, 09:21:54 pm »
We're not transitioning. We're weathering the storm. The transition will come in the summer.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #9 on: February 4, 2023, 09:23:51 pm »
We're not transitioning. We're weathering the storm. The transition will come in the summer.

….if we are lucky.

Offline redmark

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #10 on: February 4, 2023, 09:26:06 pm »
I’m not convinced it has got more physical. I suspect we’ve just gotten slower and less physical. Salah, Firmino, Fabinho, Henderson, Milner, Thiago, Van Dijk, Keita, Ox and Matip are all in physical decline at this point. The majority of our team every week is a little bit below its physical peak. It doesn’t take much for us to start looking slow and weak. You combine that with some bizarre lethargy from Trent and, perhaps, Robbo, some forwards unsuited to a high press and some youngsters who aren’t very athletic, and we suddenly look like old men/ children vs world clas athletes.
Both things may be true. I agree completely that those players are in physical decline (and have said so frequently) and that we delayed our transition a couple of years beyond when I think we probably intended to. But without doing an amount of analysis and comparison I can't be bothered with, my gut feeling is that more sides have more power in certain areas - a midfielder who can drive with the ball to start a counter, for example - than they had five years ago, as they adjust to trends in football generally and the financial power of the PL gradually pulls in ever more of the available talent.
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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #11 on: February 4, 2023, 09:26:41 pm »
….if we are lucky.

and where we getting the money? Our income will take a nosedive owing to no CL football.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #12 on: February 4, 2023, 09:27:03 pm »

i don’t see it, the signings we’ve made over the last few windows are all good players but i don’t see the fit into the style of play that’s made us the team we used to be, when i look at
the players we have today i ask if they can meet the standards of the ones who were there at their peak?

-do they have the work rate of a prime Firmino? nope none of them do
-do they have the never say did attitude of Mane? nope, once we go down a goal the whole team folds
-do they have the ruthlessness in front of goal of Salah? nope, we need fifty fucking chances to score
-do they make attackers think why even bother trying? like when faced again VVD
-are they absolutely horrible to play against like Robertson or Henderson?

we also absolutely have to sort out the off the field stuff, the medical team, analytics and sporting director all need organisation, empowerment and leadership

The off the field stuff is as important as the recruitment




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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #13 on: February 4, 2023, 09:28:31 pm »
We aren't in transition at the moment so no idea but hopefully there's some signs of one in the summer window. In the mean time I wouldn't mind some rows and the manager kicking a few people in to the stands and telling them they won't play again.

Offline Knight

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #14 on: February 4, 2023, 09:29:06 pm »
Both things may be true. I agree completely that those players are in physical decline (and have said so frequently) and that we delayed our transition a couple of years beyond when I think we probably intended to. But without doing an amount of analysis and comparison I can't be bothered with, my gut feeling is that more sides have more power in certain areas - a midfielder who can drive with the ball to start a counter, for example - than they had five years ago, as they adjust to trends in football generally and the financial power of the PL gradually pulls in ever more of the available talent.

I could see the financial power argument to be fair. Perhaps fewer clubs are having to make trade offs between athletic and technical ability given the money in the league. Maybe the conditioning side has improved with clubs able to invest more money in it. It’s always been the case that English football has valued athletic ability though so I’m not sure I find the idea clubs have adjusted compelling.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #15 on: February 4, 2023, 09:30:05 pm »
As I said in the match thread this isn't transition it's self-destruction.

Transition would be moving several senior players on and replacing them with younger players who can bust a gut. That's then your transition next season.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #16 on: February 4, 2023, 09:31:20 pm »
Bigger question is where is the league heading to? It's become even more money obsessed than it already was.

Klopp is a generational talent who's had us punching well above our weight. Though Arsenal have spent more than us, you can see them stepping into our role, having their 'moment' before they run out of gas and order is restored.

Will us competing for trophies be the exception rather than the rule, with the way City/Newcastle/Chelsea are spending?

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #17 on: February 4, 2023, 09:31:37 pm »
and where we getting the money? Our income will take a nosedive owing to no CL football.

I said if we are lucky then next summer and next season we can commence some sort of transition.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #18 on: February 4, 2023, 09:33:07 pm »
Good post

Survive this season, strengthen in the summer and hopefully finish in the top 4 year next season. It sounds mad saying that considering where we were last season but there you go

The likes of United and Arsenal will be stronger. Newcastle and Chelsea with money to spend, and Chelsea in all likelihood with a new manager. Man City will always be there (Spurs are just Spurs)

The next 6 months is crucial to the future of LFC. New owners in, back our manager (this shouldn’t even be questioned) and sort out the mess behind the scene. get rid of the deadwood that doesn’t deserve to be here and start afresh with those we deem worthy of staying

They are lucky to play for this club. Anyone who thinks they’re too big to not be playing champions league football - show them the door.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #19 on: February 4, 2023, 09:33:44 pm »
We will only decline season on season if the decision makers let us . Arsenal United and Newcastle are doing perfectly well after a non CL season

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #20 on: February 4, 2023, 09:34:04 pm »
Bigger question is where is the league heading to? It's become even more money obsessed than it already was.

Klopp is a generational talent who's had us punching well above our weight. Though Arsenal have spent more than us, you can see them stepping into our role, having their 'moment' before they run out of gas and order is restored.

Will us competing for trophies be the exception rather than the rule, with the way City/Newcastle/Chelsea are spending?

Other clubs spending has nothing to do with it, Chelsea have spent like crazy and look awful, Newcastle look like their hot streak is over and City are having a poor season.

The problem is we're a fucking shitshow from top to bottom and nobody is doing anything to correct it.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #21 on: February 4, 2023, 09:36:36 pm »
and where we getting the money? Our income will take a nosedive owing to no CL football.

Well, that's our ready-made excuse when we miss out on certain targets. Should be a splendid affair.
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Offline mercurial

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #22 on: February 4, 2023, 09:39:52 pm »
I cannot see any plan. Where are the executives who are supposed to plan? We are now in process of being sold, all indications point there. What the new management will look like and how they will plan a revival of the squad no one knows. What we have now id a squad to build on but which will require considerable investment or another 3-4 year plan. Depends on what path we take. We can try doing similar to what klopp did at the start but that will only bring us back to 2018-19 at most. Unless there is substantial investment we cannot compete now. Squad is aged and they are exhausted. You need fresh players and probably 5-6 new players. Note that probably 2 will not succeed at the level required. At present only a few I think will be part of the rebuilding- Trent, Robbo, Ibou, Harvey, Carvalho, Bajcetic, Luiz, Jota, Nunez. All others are in decline or just squad players to fill in for cups etc. Some too young to be consistent. The older players like Salah, VVD cannot do what they did earlier. Their game time must be managed well. The years we didn’t make the transfers are now coming back to bite. FSG has basically played us as fans by appealing to the socialists and saying we manage within a budget. Unfortunately they haven’t really managed that well. They did not take the risks. They are risk averse and football is all about taking risks.
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Offline Caps4444

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #23 on: February 4, 2023, 09:41:48 pm »
Such a shame that we have dropped off so badly…..4th place is really up for grabs…but we just can’t get a decent run together at all.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #24 on: February 4, 2023, 09:44:25 pm »
Who knows? Who cares? What does it matter? Why take it all so seriously? At the end of the day, it's just a sport.

We've been in these kinds of situations before, and have always managed to get things back on track

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #25 on: February 4, 2023, 09:45:48 pm »
and where we getting the money? Our income will take a nosedive owing to no CL football.

Someone should tell Arsenal.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #26 on: February 4, 2023, 11:11:17 pm »
Other clubs spending has nothing to do with it, Chelsea have spent like crazy and look awful, Newcastle look like their hot streak is over and City are having a poor season.
Short term perhaps. All those teams have a bigger upside due to their spending. We're crying out for some ourselves.

If clubs continue to spend like crazy, it will certainly impact the market, and it will get harder and harder to enjoy the success we've had.

As I said before, Klopp is a once in a lifetime manager. The way the game is going -especially in this league- it is a concern because the room for finding a gem or a player that hits the ground running will be much smaller.

Offline LifelongRed, Sussex

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #27 on: February 4, 2023, 11:29:10 pm »
Joe Gomez has a great agent.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #28 on: February 4, 2023, 11:32:43 pm »
Someone should tell Arsenal.

Kroenke had put in £220m of his money on the playing/ops side up to June 2022, 4 transfer windows late with no CL money, what’s his investment now, £350m?

He used to take an FSG stance on money, but he blinked first and started creating something.

FSG have never put in money for players, fees, wages.


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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #29 on: February 4, 2023, 11:37:50 pm »
Short term perhaps. All those teams have a bigger upside due to their spending. We're crying out for some ourselves.

If clubs continue to spend like crazy, it will certainly impact the market, and it will get harder and harder to enjoy the success we've had.

As I said before, Klopp is a once in a lifetime manager. The way the game is going -especially in this league- it is a concern because the room for finding a gem or a player that hits the ground running will be much smaller.

It's hard to blame an inflated market when we made no attempt to even buy anyone and plenty of players still moved for reasonable fees.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #30 on: February 5, 2023, 12:00:21 am »
No one before this season would have labelled this a transitional one. Absolutely no one. Not the supporters, not the manager, not the coaches, not the players, and not the owners. The notion that it is one is bollocks and is being used to deflect away from what’s happening on and off the pitch. What are we supposedly transitioning to?


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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #31 on: February 5, 2023, 12:02:31 am »
No one before this season would have labelled this a transitional one. Absolutely no one. Not the supporters, not the manager, not the coaches, not the players, and not the owners. The notion that it is one is bollocks and is being used to deflect away from what’s happening on and off the pitch. What are we supposedly transitioning to?

A mid table club that challenges for top 4 occasionally possibly?

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #32 on: February 5, 2023, 12:39:49 am »
Nothing as of yet, because the coaching staff are only just now realising that there's a need to transition.

We're still crashing the car.

This post nails it. The "transition" message has come some six months into the season after a dreadful start and a continued decline, incredibly, AFTER the rest period around the world cup.
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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #33 on: February 5, 2023, 12:51:57 am »
It's hard to blame an inflated market when we made no attempt to even buy anyone and plenty of players still moved for reasonable fees.
Agreed and my point is it will only get worse.

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #34 on: February 5, 2023, 12:58:16 am »
No one before this season would have labelled this a transitional one. Absolutely no one. Not the supporters, not the manager, not the coaches, not the players, and not the owners. The notion that it is one is bollocks and is being used to deflect away from what’s happening on and off the pitch. What are we supposedly transitioning to?

Which is why this season is just a write-off. It was written off in January.

Next season is the transition, if we do some decent business in the market.
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Offline collytum

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #35 on: February 5, 2023, 01:02:54 am »
Transitioning back to what we have been prior to klopp, main aim qualifying for the champions league with the hope of a good cup run. We don't spend enough money to be anything more than that. Klopp and the Coutinho sale changed our aims temporarily but it was never going to last with our current owners.

Offline Wolverine

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #36 on: February 5, 2023, 01:13:32 am »
This is the decline.... the transition will be in the next few seasons... long way back to the top. FSG are here to stay no one is paying 4 billion for us, they don't have the resources for us to make this a quick fix, our best hope under this ownership model is to build another team slowly year by year to peak in 4-5 years for another cycle and then once that declines rinse and repeat.

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #37 on: February 5, 2023, 01:49:06 am »
Kroenke had put in £220m of his money on the playing/ops side up to June 2022, 4 transfer windows late with no CL money, what’s his investment now, £350m?

He used to take an FSG stance on money, but he blinked first and started creating something.

FSG have never put in money for players, fees, wages.

I think we've gone over this before but Kroenke has not put in a dime of his own money for players or operations. They've refinanced loans and then structured all the transfer fees with them now owing the most of any PL team to others. Maybe Kroenke will eventually have to kick in something but for now it's just a big credit card.

Online Lynndenberries

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #38 on: February 5, 2023, 02:00:18 am »
No idea and I don’t think the club / management does either. For awhile I thought a few midfielders would fix the problem, but it’s become increasingly clear there’s deep, structural issues around the club.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: What are we transitioning to?
« Reply #39 on: February 5, 2023, 02:06:57 am »
I think we've gone over this before but Kroenke has not put in a dime of his own money for players or operations. They've refinanced loans and then structured all the transfer fees with them now owing the most of any PL team to others. Maybe Kroenke will eventually have to kick in something but for now it's just a big credit card.

Yeah YOU keep saying that like you're his personal accountant

Must come in handy when the Psychologist graft is slow.
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