Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1066205 times)

Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3520 on: September 12, 2019, 08:31:54 pm »
It's not. And I say that as a coach. If it were coaching, we wouldn't have needed to buy Van Dijk or Becker.

Again, I'm not disagreeing - I'm saying its more about coaching than it is about spending - we only have to look at Trent, Matip, Robertson, Milner, Gomez, Wijanldum, Mane, Bobby, and Salah to see that around 75% of our first team have all been developed to this level, and are massively better than when they joined us. In this market only Virgil and Alisson can truly be considered expensive, tailor-made signings and I don't think breaking the bank on two players can ever be considered as buying success, especially when they were funded by the sale of a player who would walk into any side, and who some thought was our key player at the time.

A commanding CB who could organise a defence plus a top keeper were our two glaring weaknesses, and we sold a key player which helped fund the solutions. We can't be accused of buying success for selling a player in an inflated market, then managing to get two players from the proceeds who have solved our problems and are now the best in the world. That's just extremely good recruitment and use of transfer income.
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3521 on: September 12, 2019, 08:36:49 pm »
The spending has been in support of the coaching, on a multitude of levels...

That's the thing, and they have full confidence knowing that they are spending well, and they are spending to support the best coach in Europe. whereas under the recent coaches before him, the money spent was done so so poorly at times, the trust surely wasn't there.

Anyway, could go round in circles with this of course, but Klopp has earnt the right so sign Van Dijk and Alisson. But it's still remarkable the job they (Klopp, Edwards and their staff) have done, night and day to how it was before he arrived.

No wonder fans of other teams get so bent out of shape arguing it, it's just pure jealousy and annoyance that their own clubs aren't able to do it.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3522 on: September 13, 2019, 02:50:00 am »
Again, I'm not disagreeing - I'm saying its more about coaching than it is about spending - we only have to look at Trent, Matip, Robertson, Milner, Gomez, Wijanldum, Mane, Bobby, and Salah to see that around 75% of our first team have all been developed to this level, and are massively better than when they joined us. In this market only Virgil and Alisson can truly be considered expensive, tailor-made signings and I don't think breaking the bank on two players can ever be considered as buying success, especially when they were funded by the sale of a player who would walk into any side, and who some thought was our key player at the time.

A commanding CB who could organise a defence plus a top keeper were our two glaring weaknesses, and we sold a key player which helped fund the solutions. We can't be accused of buying success for selling a player in an inflated market, then managing to get two players from the proceeds who have solved our problems and are now the best in the world. That's just extremely good recruitment and use of transfer income.

And I'm saying that you're overvaluing coaching. Turkish has it right - we have a great coach, but like any other coach, he wins things when he has the players to do so, and for us, that meant spending to solve two critical areas which were holding us back. He didn't coach players to the levels needed. He replaced them, at cost. The spending and the coaching are both important, but without the spending, we don't win #6. Coaching alone didn't get us Mane, Salah, VVD, Robertson, Fabinho or Alisson. That was spending. Klopp understands this. That's why he's happy to wait for the right player, because he knows that if you're going to spend money, you have to spend it on someone who will fit the system instantly.

Let me ask you this - if we didn't buy Alisson or Van Dijk, do we win a 6th Champions League?

And on the other hand - if we bought every player we have right now, but asked Roy Hodgson to manage them, do we win any game, ever again? ;D

It's a balance, one feeds the other, but neither is more important. You need coaching to organize teams and give them a model of play and a shape to what they're doing.

But you also need to buy in players who are ahead of your development curve, to bring success at a quicker rate. Relying on coaching alone will get you so far. Relying on purchases and recruitment alone, leaves you at the mercy of the talent of the man in charge.

Right now, we have the formula right. But if one aspect of that formula is eliminated, then what are the odds that we maintain our current levels (or improve them, even)?
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Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3523 on: September 13, 2019, 10:02:15 am »
And I'm saying that you're overvaluing coaching. Turkish has it right - we have a great coach, but like any other coach, he wins things when he has the players to do so, and for us, that meant spending to solve two critical areas which were holding us back. He didn't coach players to the levels needed. He replaced them, at cost. The spending and the coaching are both important, but without the spending, we don't win #6. Coaching alone didn't get us Mane, Salah, VVD, Robertson, Fabinho or Alisson. That was spending. Klopp understands this. That's why he's happy to wait for the right player, because he knows that if you're going to spend money, you have to spend it on someone who will fit the system instantly.

Let me ask you this - if we didn't buy Alisson or Van Dijk, do we win a 6th Champions League?

And on the other hand - if we bought every player we have right now, but asked Roy Hodgson to manage them, do we win any game, ever again? ;D

It's a balance, one feeds the other, but neither is more important. You need coaching to organize teams and give them a model of play and a shape to what they're doing.

But you also need to buy in players who are ahead of your development curve, to bring success at a quicker rate. Relying on coaching alone will get you so far. Relying on purchases and recruitment alone, leaves you at the mercy of the talent of the man in charge.

Right now, we have the formula right. But if one aspect of that formula is eliminated, then what are the odds that we maintain our current levels (or improve them, even)?

And I think you're undervaluing coaching. I'm not saying we haven't spent big when needed, but without exception, every other player other than Virgil and Alisson has been transformed under Klopp, and even Virgil is far better than when he joined.

Salah, Mane and Firmino were good but not great players - talented and skilful goalscorers, but all inconsistent and unpolished. They're all world-class strikers now that would get into any side, and each cost about the same as an Andy Carroll in 2011. That's coaching surely? We bought them in successive seasons between 2015 and 2018, and bought Salah the same year Arsenal paid £57m for Aubameyang, £36m for Lacazette, and £31m for Mkhitaryan (they also had to sell to buy and had a positive net spend after sales). Where did that get them compared to us? Were they trying to buy success, or does it only apply to teams that actually achieve it? It's not just about spending and if it was, then the hundreds of millions Utd spent on players like Pogba, Sanchez, Martial, Depay, Lukaku, Matip, Mkhitaryan, and Fred in the last 3-4 years would have won the league (or at least had them challenging every year). They've spent another £140 million this summer but are not accused of trying to buy success because they're still shit. Their failures are down to bad transfers and coaching, and ours are down to great transfers and coaching.

In answer to your CL question - we got to a final without Alisson, and with Virgil only 6 months into his time here. We were a Salah injury, two goalkeeping mistakes, and a worldie from Bale away from possibly having a different result, so yes, we certainly could have won that game considering we were on top until Salah went off. Have Virgil and Alisson made a big difference for us? Hell yes. Were they expensive? Definitely. Have we bought success in the same way City and Chelsea did (and Utd have tried to for several years?). Absolutely not.

As a coach yourself I'm surprised you see spending as the more important aspect of Klopp's body of work, given what he's done before and our progression under him. He's transformed every single aspect of the club and turned a group of free transfers, inherited players, cheap prospects, an academy graduate, and a few big buys into one of the most efficient and effective footballing units in the world, at a club whose net spend ranks only 12th in Europe over the last 10 years.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 12:13:09 pm by keyop »
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3524 on: September 13, 2019, 12:51:15 pm »
And I think you're undervaluing coaching.

 :lmao

That'll keep me going for weeks...

Custom title change involving undervaluing coaching for PoPs imminent...
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Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3525 on: September 13, 2019, 01:06:42 pm »
:lmao

That'll keep me going for weeks...

Custom title change involving undervaluing coaching for PoPs imminent...
Eh??  ???

In the context of the thread, he's cited spending more than coaching as being the key to our success. I disagree, and don't bow down to him like others on here...
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3526 on: September 13, 2019, 01:13:15 pm »
Coaching can only get you so far in football, you have to have the talent to take it to the next step and usually to get such players you have to spend money. So it's a fine balance.

The notion that Mane and Salah were inconsistent prior to comming here is far fetched. Mane had 2 very good seasons [which he followed with the same numbers in the following two seasons for us, he only exploded goal wise last season] Same with Salah while he was at Roma. If they were inconsistent, they wouldn't have been signed by the club. Of course they've improved, coaching has helped but they also have the ability and talent to do so.

Firmino had a fantastic season at Hoffenheim, it's why we signed him,etc...

« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 04:03:20 pm by deFacto »

Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3527 on: September 13, 2019, 01:14:49 pm »
Eh??  ???

In the context of the thread, he's cited spending more than coaching as being the key to our success. I disagree, and don't bow down to him like others on here...

Good on you not bowing down like all the others, you brave keyboard warrior...
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Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3528 on: September 13, 2019, 01:17:36 pm »
Good on you not bowing down like all the others, you brave keyboard warrior...

It's nothing to do with being a warrior, its called debate - two different opinions being discussed. Certainly no need for any childish emojis or comments.
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Offline afc tukrish

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3529 on: September 13, 2019, 01:22:20 pm »
It's nothing to do with being a warrior, its called debate - two different opinions being discussed. Certainly no need for any childish emojis or comments.

I agree, the childish not bowing down like others on here comment added nothing to the debate...

And the emoji wasn't meant to ruffle your feathers, but rather PoPs...

It was a joke about all the posting he does about coaching.

But you've taken up the bit now, so run with your very brave, against-the-flow campaign... :wave
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Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3530 on: September 13, 2019, 01:28:53 pm »
Coaching can only get you so far in football, you have to have the talent to take it to the next step and usually to get such players you have to spend money. So it's a fine balance.

The notion that Mane and Salah were inconsistent prior to cumming here is far fetched. Mane had 2 very good seasons [which he followed with the same numbers in the following two seasons for us, he only exploded goal wise last season] Same with Salah while he was at Roma. If they were inconsistent, they wouldn't have been signed by the club. Of course they've improved, coaching has helped but they also have the ability and talent to do so.

Firmino had a fantastic season at Hoffenheim, it's why we signed him,etc...
I didn't just call them inconsistent though, I said they were good but not great players - talented and skillful goalscorers, but all inconsistent and unpolished. We're talking here in terms of Klopp's template and how he developed them into world class players and title challengers, not about how they performed for their previous clubs. Consistency at Southampton is a million miles away from consistency for a Klopp side.

The original argument was about buying success - I've only cited those players as examples of what coaching has achieved in terms of their development - all them were nowhere near as consistent or prolific as they are now which is why 'buying success' is a little far fetched.

I don't disagree we've spent money, I just refute the view that we're anywhere near City, Chelsea or Utd's bracket, and believe that its more about how Klopp has changed the mindset and development of the players, than it is about how much we spent. Others will disagree, and that's fine.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 01:57:52 pm by keyop »
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Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3531 on: September 13, 2019, 01:33:02 pm »
I agree, the childish not bowing down like others on here comment added nothing to the debate...

And the emoji wasn't meant to ruffle your feathers, but rather PoPs...

It was a joke about all the posting he does about coaching.

But you've taken up the bit now, so run with your very brave, against-the-flow campaign... :wave

Not a campaign, just an opinion.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3532 on: September 13, 2019, 04:02:32 pm »
Eh??  ???

In the context of the thread, he's cited spending more than coaching as being the key to our success. I disagree, and don't bow down to him like others on here...

I literally said this, Keyop (italics added) :) -


Quote
It's a balance, one feeds the other, but neither is more important
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3533 on: September 13, 2019, 04:07:15 pm »
I didn't just call them inconsistent though, I said they were good but not great players - talented and skillful goalscorers, but all inconsistent and unpolished. We're talking here in terms of Klopp's template and how he developed them into world class players and title challengers, not about how they performed for their previous clubs. Consistency at Southampton is a million miles away from consistency for a Klopp side.

The original argument was about buying success - I've only cited those players as examples of what coaching has achieved in terms of their development - all them were nowhere near as consistent or prolific as they are now which is why 'buying success' is a little far fetched.

I don't disagree we've spent money, I just refute the view that we're anywhere near City, Chelsea or Utd's bracket, and believe that its more about how Klopp has changed the mindset and development of the players, than it is about how much we spent. Others will disagree, and that's fine.

But my point was they weren't inconsistent, whether you called them good or whatever wasn't what I was arguing. . Whether he's consistent or Soton or at Liverpool, doesn't matter, he was consistent.

Now if we're talking about different levels of quality needed to be successful at this club sure, however consistency wasn't an issue. If you don't have the talent you cant improve, no matter what kind of coach you have. The ability and talent has to be there for the coaching to make an impact, but it ultimately comes down on the ability and the player.


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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3534 on: September 13, 2019, 04:07:51 pm »
I literally said this, Keyop (italics added) :) -



Never mind, he'll just type louder...

All about a good debate where the brave are acknowledged as possessed of superior insight...
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3535 on: September 13, 2019, 04:38:43 pm »
Eh??  ???

In the context of the thread, he's cited spending more than coaching as being the key to our success. I disagree, and don't bow down to him like others on here...

Word of advice, you'll never win an argument vs PoP, even if you are also right  ;) 

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3536 on: September 13, 2019, 04:42:09 pm »
Word of advice, you'll never win an argument vs PoP, even if you are also right  ;)

Which he isn't, in this case ;)
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Offline Bjornar

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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3537 on: September 13, 2019, 05:05:54 pm »
Regarding improvement through coaching versus buying proven quality, surely there's a third aspect to this, that Klopp (and his coaching team) have a blueprint/system/philosophy for playing football that's highly effective and when implemented properly will get the maximum out of the players bought when those players have the specific qualities needed for the system? My impression is both Salah and Mané for example looked like better players than previously more or less instantly when put into a Klopp setup. So it wasn't really coaching, but not as simple as just putting good players from other teams into ours either, in the sense that neither of them were viewed as obvious top quality players at the time we signed them.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 05:09:33 pm by Bjornar »

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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3538 on: September 13, 2019, 05:08:33 pm »
Regarding improvement through coaching versus buying proven quality, surely there's a third aspect to this, that Klopp (and his coaching team) has a blueprint/system/philosophy for playing football that's highly effective and when implemented properly will get the maximum out of the players bought when those players have the specific qualities needed for the system? My impression is both Salah and Mané for example looked like better players than previously more or less instantly when put into a Klopp setup. So it wasn't really coaching, but not as simple as just putting good players from other teams into ours either, in the sense that neither of them was viewed as obvious top quality players at the time we signed them.

That's exactly the point I'm making. Coaching will get you to Point A. To get to Point B, you have to buy in ready-made talent that fits your system. Coaching has limits. So does spending. It's Rafa at Newcastle on one end, and Real Madrid's Galacticos experiment at the other.

It's not a binary situation, in other words.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3539 on: September 13, 2019, 05:47:04 pm »


And the emoji wasn't meant to ruffle your feathers, but rather PoPs...

It was a joke about all the posting he does about coaching.

Wait wait wait wait... POP's a coach?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3540 on: September 13, 2019, 05:53:03 pm »
Wait wait wait wait... POP's a coach?

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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3541 on: September 13, 2019, 05:54:59 pm »
That's exactly the point I'm making. Coaching will get you to Point A. To get to Point B, you have to buy in ready-made talent that fits your system. Coaching has limits. So does spending. It's Rafa at Newcastle on one end, and Real Madrid's Galacticos experiment at the other.

It's not a binary situation, in other words.

Agree with that PoP. What I would say though is that what is often overlooked is the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture. The pretty unique ability to be almost your own DoF. To have both the insight and ability to decide what can be rectified with coaching and what needs to be rectified by purchasing players.

You often get good coaches, we had one in Rodgers and you often get managers who are good at player trading. What sets the apart the truly exceptional managers is an ability to do both. To be able to improve players in the here and now but also have the kind of overview and foresight to continually improve a Club in the mid to long term as well.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3542 on: September 13, 2019, 05:55:33 pm »
Part time, in between Speedo modelling and sales assignments

Pics please (yes, I want to check out your arse).
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3543 on: September 13, 2019, 06:00:02 pm »
Agree with that PoP. What I would say though is that what is often overlooked is the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture. The pretty unique ability to be almost your own DoF. To have both the insight and ability to decide what can be rectified with coaching and what needs to be rectified by purchasing players.

You often get good coaches, we had one in Rodgers and you often get managers who are good at player trading. What sets the apart the truly exceptional managers is an ability to do both. To be able to improve players in the here and now but also have the kind of overview and foresight to continually improve a Club in the mid to long term as well.

 :thumbup
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3544 on: September 13, 2019, 06:02:51 pm »
Pics please (yes, I want to check out your arse).

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3545 on: September 13, 2019, 06:03:16 pm »
Eh??  ???

In the context of the thread, he's cited spending more than coaching as being the key to our success. I disagree, and don't bow down to him like others on here...

That's actually not what he's done at all. 

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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3546 on: September 13, 2019, 06:27:58 pm »

Going for the David Unsworth look I see.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3547 on: September 13, 2019, 06:29:06 pm »
Part time, in between Speedo modelling and sales assignments
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Imposter! Get back to GoT.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3548 on: September 13, 2019, 06:32:15 pm »
That's exactly the point I'm making. Coaching will get you to Point A. To get to Point B, you have to buy in ready-made talent that fits your system.

But all systems surely aren't equally good or valid either?

To me, it looks like our trump card is Klopp's overarching idea about what effective football looks like, it's just the best one in football at the moment (maybe together with Guardiola, but he hasn't shown he can make it work without the very best players), and makes the spending vs coaching discussion a bit of a moot point. Our system makes both the established players signed (like Salah and Mane) and the players introduced gradually (Trent, Robertson) look better than they would IMO in any other set up. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 06:39:19 pm by Bjornar »

Offline keyop

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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3549 on: September 13, 2019, 06:48:45 pm »
I literally said this, Keyop (italics added) :) -
and this...
And I'm saying that you're overvaluing coaching.

He didn't coach players to the levels needed. He replaced them, at cost.
When I suggested our success was more about coaching than spending, you replied:
It's not. And I say that as a coach.
Which suggests you credit spending more (or at the very least the same) as coaching in Klopp's time with us, despite the obvious evidence of dramatic improvements in every player we've brought (even Virgil), with some like Trent and Robertson becoming world-class from the most humble of beginnings, and free transfers playing some of the best football of their lives.

My original post was about rivals saying we've bought success, which we haven't - we've done a combination of coaching and clever spending of transfer/CL income - which I acknowledged throughout all of my posts. I happen to think we've coached success far more than we've bought it, and you disagree. Which is fine.
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3550 on: September 13, 2019, 07:04:53 pm »
Never mind, he'll just type louder...

All about a good debate where the brave are acknowledged as possessed of superior insight...
No superior insight, just an opinion. After all, my original post was aimed at rival fans views, not our own.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3551 on: September 13, 2019, 07:11:07 pm »
But all systems surely aren't equally good or valid either?



All systems are good and valid. It all depends on whether you have the correct players to perform the roles within the system, with the appropriate qualities.
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3552 on: September 13, 2019, 07:12:11 pm »
and this...When I suggested our success was more about coaching than spending, you replied:Which suggests you credit spending more (or at the very least the same) as coaching in Klopp's time with us, despite the obvious evidence of dramatic improvements in every player we've brought (even Virgil), with some like Trent and Robertson becoming world-class from the most humble of beginnings, and free transfers playing some of the best football of their lives.

My original post was about rivals saying we've bought success, which we haven't - we've done a combination of coaching and clever spending of transfer/CL income - which I acknowledged throughout all of my posts. I happen to think we've coached success far more than we've bought it, and you disagree. Which is fine.

Fair points!
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Re: The Klopp Template - How many decades will it last?
« Reply #3553 on: September 13, 2019, 07:14:18 pm »
...My original post was about rivals saying we've bought success, which we haven't - we've done a combination of coaching and clever spending of transfer/CL income - which I acknowledged throughout all of my posts. I happen to think we've coached success far more than we've bought it, and you disagree. Which is fine.

I tried replying to your original point but couldn't word it right so I scrapped it. I'll try again... I agree with the thrust of what you were saying. Certain rivals (I know, who cares, but still...) have to do what they can to devalue our success for their own reasons. One angle of attack is to say we have simply bought success. Like you, I feel this is inaccurate regardless of the fees for VVD and Becker.

The likes of Abu Dhabi and Chelsea can buy levels of success they would never have had otherwise with money gifted to them which has not been raised via the game / football industry itself. This is very different to being a well run, self-sustaining club purchasing quality players with money they have earned via player sales, matchday revenue, commercial sponsorships and merchandise. Every club has to spend, but only a certain few can spend what they like, when they like, because their money does not actually come from football itself. That is buying success.

Clubs like Liverpool have a limited budget. A monstrously big budget by by the standards of the ordinary person on the street, but still limited by football standards. We have to use the money we spend wisely, and we have to have a manager and staff that can bring the very best out of the players we bring in. Klopp is a man who gets the extra mile out of players. He is a great manager and a fantastic people person. Like Shankly before him, Klopp makes everyone, including the tea lady, feel ten feet tall. The extra he gets out of people cannot be underestimated.

Yes, Liverpool have spent, but they haven't simply bought and bought with unlimited and unearned funds until they got it right. Liverpool spent what they earned, and spent it well. That's only half the battle though. The manager has to put together a cohesive team that knows exactly what he wants from them. He has to put it all together and make it work. There are clubs out there who have spent an awful lot more than us in recent years yet who are a shambles. United lash the cash and have declined. Everton have lashed the cash in order to tread water. Rivals genuinely suggesting Liverpool have simply bought success are being lazy and wilfully ignorant. Others suggest it simply to make themselves feel better because their own clubs are useless. To them, if they can devalue our success in their own minds, they feel a little better about having none of their own.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 07:16:54 pm by Sons of pioneerS »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3554 on: September 13, 2019, 08:01:59 pm »
We all know Klopp and those around him carefully select players who are not only good, but also have a certain kind of attitude.  He picks players of excellent ability, but who can also be coached in his style and who will believe in what he is trying to build.

As we have seen, such players are increasingly expensive; and whilst we have lucked out on a few relatively cheap gems, if we want to dine at the top table we occasionally have to pay for the privilege.  We know from experience that there is only so far raw talent, enthusiasm, investing in youth and bargain buys can get a team. 

To look at money v coaching and say one is more important than the other is like trying to say which side of a coin is worth the most.  It's a silly and pointless debate to have.  We simply cannot have one without the other.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3555 on: September 13, 2019, 08:49:39 pm »
Are all systems equally good and valid though? In principle I'm sure the answer is yes, but I'd rather have Klopp or even a lesser coach subscribing to the same principles coaching LFC, than someone thinking about football like Roy Hodgson or Steve Bruce.

Yes. Systems don't win you games, players do. Systems are just the organisation and principles of play that gives the team direction. Don't confuse the "system" with the "coach", though. Simeone subscribes to much the same principles as Hodgson, but obviously gets better return for his work. On top of that, we can't just talk "systems", we also have to talk "training", and some training methods are better than others. In fact, it would be more accurate to say that "Not all training methods are good and valid" rather than the same maxim for "systems of play"
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3556 on: September 13, 2019, 09:17:05 pm »
All systems are good and valid. It all depends on whether you have the correct players to perform the roles within the system, with the appropriate qualities.

Again I agree completely.

If there was a perfect system then it would of been discovered decades ago. All systems have strengths and weaknesses. The tough part is covering up your weaknesses whilst being able to exploit your strengths. As you say that depends so much on the quality of the players at your disposal and their ability to fulfil what you require of them.

When it comes together it is about fine tuning the system to suit the players and fine tuning the players roles so that the team becomes greater than the sum of it's constituent parts.

I think a really good example is Leicester winning the League on a shoestring with players that suited the system and a system that suited the players. Compare that to United owning sixth by doing the reverse by swapping systems at will whilst recruiting on reputation only. 
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3557 on: September 13, 2019, 09:33:15 pm »
That's exactly the point I'm making. Coaching will get you to Point A. To get to Point B, you have to buy in ready-made talent that fits your system. Coaching has limits. So does spending. It's Rafa at Newcastle on one end, and Real Madrid's Galacticos experiment at the other.

It's not a binary situation, in other words.

Well you don't make much sense here because if it's klopps system then that's his coaching as well.  To fit in to the system you have to be coached in to your role within that system so you are contradicting yourself. It's not just talent.  Because there are loads of talented footballers out there however with quality coaching there ability can only take them so far.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3558 on: September 13, 2019, 09:56:05 pm »
Well you don't make much sense here because if it's klopps system then that's his coaching as well.  To fit in to the system you have to be coached in to your role within that system so you are contradicting yourself. It's not just talent.  Because there are loads of talented footballers out there however with quality coaching there ability can only take them so far.

Personally I think it is about a combination of things. You need a system that you can get players to buy in to. You need coaching that brings out the best in both the system and the players but above all you need quality players.

I think the clearest example of that is not Club football but International Football. An environment in which you can't solve your problems by dropping in a Becker or VVD. The most successful teams tend to be the most rounded teams. The ones without clear weaknesses. That for me shows it isn't about systems or coaching but the players you have at your disposal.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Is it money or coaching?
« Reply #3559 on: September 14, 2019, 01:17:59 am »
Not sure why this is even up for debate.  You can have a one off season but on the whole without the money you're not winning anything.  Have Pep go manage Sunderland for instance, he may get some players to make a leap of faith but unless they start paying more he's not going to go far.  We focus so much on net spend but our wage bill has dramatically risen since Klopp arrived as well to where I think it's now top 6 in world football or thereabouts?   Without that type of commitment you're not going to be as successful as you otherwise could.