Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[filopastry]

All well and good but if the appetite to make meaningful change at the expense of enriching its member states isn't there from the EU (as certainly appears to be the case) then what use is the membership to the green party?

How do you plan to combat climate change without increasing international cooperation using institutions like the EU.

The UK could leave the EU and become a zero carbon economy tomorrow and it would basically make sod all difference to the global fight against  climate change.

The more transnational institutions get weakened the less likely it is that we will ever find the level of international cooperation required to make a serious start in dealing with climate change.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/misselliemae/status/1160866049283301376?s=21

It’s hard to out-stupid Owen but Ellie mae has done so, the greens are centrists now in loony lefty land, how long until it’s ‘green tories’

[Zeb]

Owen Jones is the king of identity politics on twitter surely!

(For what its worth I do think the comments from Lucas were pretty stupid)

Amusing part to it for me is that the current general public perception of the Greens is what Labour under Corbyn could have been. Even Labour's 2016 Leavers (leaning towards Frottage's populism) generally prefer the Greens to both Corbyn's Labour and Frottage. Not sure if it damages the positive perception of Lucas (and by implication the Greens) or strengthens it when the Corbynistas get all upset with her. Certainly a fun way to demonstrate priorities right now.

[redmark]

Certainly a fun way to demonstrate priorities right now.

The problem is, you could make precisely the same argument about Lucas's intervention. 'Unite to Remain' is gathering some momentum. The talk has been about a GNU alternative to a Corbyn opposition, with advocates of the former including Lucas as one of the possible figureheads and a 'respected politician' across the house. With one clumsy initiative (and the lack of a BAME name I'm sure is genuine 'colour blindness' rather than anything sinister - but the Greens' do have a slight issue with colour blindness, having put up fewer BAME candidates in 2015 than UKIP did), all she's done is lower the chances of finding a majority for a GNU. She's right that a number of key people in current discussions are women, but ignores that people like Dominic Grieve and Oliver Letwin will be key in delivering some wavering Tory men, and Hilary Benn and (perhaps) Keir Starmer amongst others on the Labour side.

This just didn't need doing.

[naka]

Lucas' comments are sexist.

actually agree with this.
very naive from lucas

[Zeb]

This just didn't need doing.

As I said, I don't agree with the specifics, but it's interesting the instant response taken against it hasn't been in the principle of forming a government of national unity. Not sure Lucas' letter does anything different to anyone else proposing their fantasy cabinet line-up. It's not even cover for Labour's leadership because it's so amendable once the foundational principle has been conceded. 

[Sangria]

Tough day in here for those proposing the greens as the 'sensible' choice for the next election, that idea proposed by Lucas is as much a turn off and just plain bad as near enough anything else suggested in the past 3 years.

Here's an idea to get past the divisive identity driven politics of Brexit, lets put together an all female cabinet.

Embarrassing stuff.

Every chance the Lib Dems or the Greens get to step up and show they *might* be a reasonable alternative their expose themselves as either being closeted tories for the former or woefully out of their depth for the latter.

What would you call Corbyn then? Closet kipper? Or open kipper?

Fuck Brexit. Fuck the far right and all its enablers. That is all.

[redmark]

As I said, I don't agree with the specifics, but it's interesting the instant response taken against it hasn't been in the principle of forming a government of national unity. Not sure Lucas' letter does anything different to anyone else proposing their fantasy cabinet line-up. It's not even cover for Labour's leadership because it's so amendable once the foundational principle has been conceded. 

The other fantasy cabinet lineups have come from commentators like Polly Toynbee rather than actual political leaders themselves proposed as possible PMs though, haven't they?

[Zeb]

The other fantasy cabinet lineups have come from commentators like Polly Toynbee rather than actual political leaders themselves proposed as possible PMs though, haven't they?

Think it's the first time an MP has written a public letter to other, named, MPs about it, yeah.

[Skeeve]

To be fair I think lucas is spot on. I think British politics needs shaking up, it's full of stuffy old men from the same background, doing and thinking the same thing. It's like a bloody gentleman's club. Her idea is wild and radical, but maybe this will ruffle a few feathers. It's not too say her idea can't be opened up to include men eventually. But maybe getting this off the ground needs new tact, a group of strong women forming a strong coherent plan is better than watching corbyn be a wet lettuce in a group trying to form a coup but no idea how to lead it, or knowing what he really wants to achieve. As for the other men within politics at the moment I can't think of many who would be good leading this country against Brexit. She may shoot herself in the foot, it might not work but by god I'm behind her for actually trying. There's very few people in politics I actually have faith or believe in anymore, but I've met lucas a few times, and I don't think she's crazy, I think she's strong and calculated at just the right times. I don't believe she'll allow men to shout her down, she'll give as good as she gets. I for one would love to see it work. At the very least it'll get people talking. I can't wait for the sexist male pigs to come out the woodwork and say a group of women running the country bless them, or who do they think they are?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, corbyn or lucas? Real tough choice there......

It needs shaking up, but her idea is flawed when you consider just how many fuckwits there are within the ranks of the female MPs, would anyone want to see the likes of Hoey, Leadsom, Dories or a return of May just because of their gender?

A bigger issue with her idea is that it allows the very sensible need of a national unity government to be sidetracked by her unnecessary addition to that plan.

[ShakaHislop]

I mean we seem to have arrived at the point whereby the environmental party in our political landscape seems to be heavily lobbying and invested in remaining inside the EU who are doing relatively little to combat climate change as Europe literally burns up around it. And also well up for inviting the pro fracking Tories inside to enable it.

But at least they're not confused about their policies as you say.

I'm glad that the Labour Party has taken the environmental baton from the Green Party and run with it.

Labour's official position was to oppose expansion, but its MPs were given a free vote.

More Labour MPs supported the government than backed their leader Jeremy Corbyn, who had opposed the expansion.

The development was supported by 119 Labour MPs, while 96 voted against the move.

Heathrow airport: MPs vote in favour of expansion

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44609898

[ShakaHislop]

Yet again, more Labour MPs voting with those Tories than against, this time on HS2.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-07-15/division/6A3441EA-EAFA-4DF5-8E96-70D52903AE3A/HighSpeedRail(WestMidlands-Crewe)Bill?outputType=Party

Jezza couldn't even be arsed to turn up for that one, although he did make the effort to vote with the boys in blue in favour of Phase 1.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-03-23/division/20917D65-544C-4305-99D0-686CD3A0F684/HighSpeedRail(London%E2%80%93WestMidlands)Bill?outputType=Party

[Zeb]

Ian Dunt on Sky setting out the options for MPs to take control of the timetable and so legislate: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1160914601665581057 (twitter video)

Essentially, it's still very possible through a few routes. As said before, problem comes when MPs get to what they want to do once legislating. May didn't play hardball with the Commons with Cooper's bill and negotiating an extension as she didn't want to exit without the Withdrawal Agreement. Johnson has every incentive not to be even that accommodating.

[Team Sleep]

All well and good but if the appetite to make meaningful change at the expense of enriching its member states isn't there from the EU (as certainly appears to be the case) then what use is the membership to the green party?

Not being able to influence climate change policy is a hot new take on leaving the EU. Definitely something we could better influence from the outside as our absence gives more space to right wing populist regimes to drive climate change policy. Yup. Uh huh.

Could I interest you in leaving to save the whales and polar bears too?

[Banquo's Ghost]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

There is an interesting counterpoint to the idea which is that the only two female prime ministers of the UK have both been amongst the very worst occupants of that position. Personally, I'd attribute that to them being Tories, but it is demonstrable that being a woman does not automatically mean you will be a good politician. Further, both were tyrannical and anti-Cabinet, rather undermining the thesis of the letter that women are better at forging consensus.

[Team Sleep]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

I thought the point of the people she reached out to was that they were the most senior or active women advocating for Remain or People's Vote across the other parties. The onus should be on those parties to explain themselves, not Lucas.

That said, there's no denying the naivety of how an all woman list would be received, even after accounting for how the typical Corbyn outriders would respond. Just pick the best people regardless of gender and give people less reason to snipe.

[ShakaHislop]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

There is an interesting counterpoint to the idea which is that the only two female prime ministers of the UK have both been amongst the very worst occupants of that position. Personally, I'd attribute that to them being Tories, but it is demonstrable that being a woman does not automatically mean you will be a good politician. Further, both were tyrannical and anti-Cabinet, rather undermining the thesis of the letter that women are better at forging consensus.

The last leader of a party to unite the country behind him and win a majority was a man. The coalition formed in the midst of an economic crisis was brokered by two men.

[Zeb]

[No-one agreeing about a government of national unity] does not change simply by suggesting an all-female-reboot for the idea, as Caroline Lucas, the Greens’ sole MP, has done. But it’s a clever way to keep the Green party in the headlines by emphasising some of its different credentials. Although the party is not constitutionally obliged to have joint co-leaders, it has had a run of them for close to four years, and its candidate for the London mayoralty, many of its most highly-rated MEPs, its sole member of the House of Lords (and, I’m told, its second member of the House of Lords, nominated by Theresa May in her resignation honours but not yet officially cleared by the new regime) are all women.

The idea reflects an underrated element of Lucas’ political skillset: keeping her party in the headlines through eyecatching measures – a tax on meat was one, and this was another – that reiterate the party’s key messages.

Stephen Bush

[ShakaHislop]

Stephen Bush

But it’s a clever way to keep the Green party in the headlines by emphasising some of its different credentials.

Someone tell political journalists not every move a politican makes is some 4D chess move, particularly when they're mostly thick as shit.

[Zeb]

Someone tell political journalists not every move a politican makes is some 4D chess move, particularly when they're mostly thick as shit.

Hardly 4d chess to be seen as waving more to voters and potential voters when you post a public letter to the Guardian though?

[ShakaHislop]

Hardly 4d chess to be seen as waving more to voters and potential voters when you post a public letter to the Guardian though?

Who's going to be won over by what she said? Corbynites already have their own women in their party (Thornberry, Pidcock, Rayner etc) to get behind. Everyone else bar some people who are already voting Green just view it as looney left stuff surely?

[Zeb]

Who's going to be won over by what she said? Corbynites already have their own women in their party (Thornberry, Pidcock, Rayner etc) to get behind. Everyone else bar some already Greens just view it as looney left stuff surely?

If Greens hold onto what they're currently polling then it's treble their vote share from 2017 and more clout when negotiating seat arrangements under the proposed Remain alliance. I don't see too much difference to her doing it, the act rather than the details - which are a nonsense but here we are, than, say, Swinson putting out her letter to Corbyn about a VoNC. Or even Labour MPs agreeing to be quoted by name about cross-party discussions on a government of national unity, even those who only want to say it's jolly hard but they're trying.

[Ghost Town]

Ha ha, been away so just catching up.  It would never have happened anyway, so 'keeping her party in the public eye' or not, it was a dumb thing to suggest.

[TheShanklyGates]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

one group you are missing out is labour MPs effectively binning off the front bench to form a national unity govt, only realistic hope left really

[TheShanklyGates]

one group you are missing out is labour MPs effectively binning off the front bench to form a national unity govt, only realistic hope left really

First rule of politics is being able to count and all that. There probably isn't the numbers for a national unity government anyway but there certainly isn't without the Labour front bench.

[Alan_X]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

[Brissyred]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

It was like the monty python argument sketch.

[leroy]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

A patient, patient man.

[24/7]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

Best summary I've seen for a while. Thanks. Can I use it elsewhere please?

[Red-Soldier]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

You can't discuss with stupid.

[Qston]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

At least Madeley brings the wine

[Cpt_Reina]

Not being able to influence climate change policy is a hot new take on leaving the EU. Definitely something we could better influence from the outside as our absence gives more space to right wing populist regimes to drive climate change policy. Yup. Uh huh.

All i'm saying is that the EU seem to pay little more than lip service to environmental issues and climate change, its membership is still ultimately concerned with filling its pockets rather than tackling these issues in any real way, I mean is this even debatable?

You can say 'greater influence from the inside' but to what end? There still appears to be no real appetite within the EU to properly move in this direction at the expense of its existing systemic practices which are ultimately at odds with the end goal of becoming carbon neutral. They're giving themselves what, 30yrs to attempt to get there? Thats no more ambitious than the fucking Tories and also no more believable.

What is the green party if not the party of sustainability? The EU, clearly, isn't aligned to these values. Are they now simply a party of middle class remainers looking to feel better about themselves as they continue to not give a toss about meaningful sustainability or environmental issues? Sounds more like the Lib Dems.

[Riquende]

All i'm saying is that the EU seem to pay little more than lip service to environmental issues and climate change, its membership is still ultimately concerned with filling its pockets rather than tackling these issues in any real way, I mean is this even debatable?

You can say 'greater influence from the inside' but to what end? There still appears to be no real appetite within the EU to properly move in this direction at the expense of its existing systemic practices which are ultimately at odds with the end goal of becoming carbon neutral. They're giving themselves what, 30yrs to attempt to get there? Thats no more ambitious than the fucking Tories and also no more believable.

What is the green party if not the party of sustainability? The EU, clearly, isn't aligned to these values. Are they now simply a party of middle class remainers looking to feel better about themselves as they continue to not give a toss about meaningful sustainability or environmental issues? Sounds more like the Lib Dems.

Have you tried voting Green MEPs into the European Parliament?

Complaining that a particular political institution isn't behaving in the way we'd like doesn't make it a monolithic entity immpossible to change.

[Cpt_Reina]

Have you tried voting Green MEPs into the European Parliament?

Complaining that a particular political institution isn't behaving in the way we'd like doesn't make it a monolithic entity immpossible to change.

It doesn't, but I'm pretty sure the greens have criticised the excessive influence of the European Commission in the past so I mean... even they acknowledge their ability to reshape and reform is kept at arms length.

*Believing* you can change the EU and bend it to be more Green centric doesnt necessarily make it so, no more than believing you can make a go of leaving with no deal makes it so.

[filopastry]

It doesn't, but I'm pretty sure the greens have criticised the excessive influence of the European Commission in the past so I mean... even they acknowledge their ability to reshape and reform is kept at arms length.

*Believing* you can change the EU and bend it to be more Green centric doesnt necessarily make it so, no more than believing you can make a go of leaving with no deal makes it so.

Nobody is saying the EU is perfect, but what is the alternative, being ruled by a Frottage/Johnson axis while we cosy up to Trump.

A few years of that and you may find out the EU is a lot more environmentally aware than you appreciate.

Equally a lot of it reflects the general public, most people believe climate change is real and they think something should be done, they just don't want to incur many SIGNIFICANT costs themselves.

Until that changes on either a UK/EU or global level don't expect radical change.

[filopastry]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

I'm still not convinced there is a majority for any kind of government of national unity, I can't see any meaningful number of Tory rebels backing a Corbyn led government, (especially when they will have to fight a GE just afterwards justifying why they did it), and equally I think the Labour front bench won't support anyone but Corbyn, and there aren't enough potential Tory rebels to overcome that hefty deficit (plus some Labour backbenchers won't vote to extend the Art 50 deadline as they are batshit crazy Brexiteers)

Sadly if MPs can't see the possibility of a victorious outcome on this in the endgame I could even see a lot of Tories opposed to Johnson not voting against in a VONC, careerists won't want to be on the losing side of that argument. Tories in Remain supporting areas might be more amenable but I wouldn't think there are all that many of them anymore.

If we are depending on a Government of National Unity to get out of this mess I would prepare for disappointment, we can only hope another route is found.

[Cpt_Reina]

Nobody is saying the EU is perfect, but what is the alternative, being ruled by a Frottage/Johnson axis while we cosy up to Trump.

A few years of that and you may find out the EU is a lot more environmentally aware than you appreciate.

Equally a lot of it reflects the general public, most people believe climate change is real and they think something should be done, they just don't want to incur many SIGNIFICANT costs themselves.

Until that changes on either a UK/EU or global level don't expect radical change.

This is not the discussion I'm having though, what I'm saying is that leave/remain has become such a dominant conversation that it seems to muddy the waters of near enough all other policies proposed.

The Greens are pro remain to try and put themselves within the conversation, remainers are lapping that shit up...fine, but lets not pretend that it doesn't also eat in to the 'niche' they had carved themselves prior to making that decision to heavily back remain.

The Greens were (as far as I saw it) a party advocating quite radical change in a number of different ways, and slowly they are more and more becoming the party of the status quo. Remain is shaping their identity to such an extent that surely you have to wonder whether they still represent the same values to the same extent.

Weren't they anti big business anti big government? Rallying against the system we have put in place which is doing more damage than good. Nothing supports that foundation like being desperate to remain within the EU ay.

But hey, they're pro remain so thats good enough?

[filopastry]

The problem for the Greens from an electoral point of view, is that I would guess people who give a shit about the environment probably overlap to a significant degree with people who are socially liberal, a group that also tends to be strongly pro-Remain.

The Greens can go full pro Leave if they want but it will hurt their support levels, I think they would probably end up losing their one MP.

We aren't remotely at a point where the Greens are going to get massive support under FPTP for Green issues alone, a lot of people "care" they just don't care that much yet.

Not saying any of this as a Green supporter myself, but electorally it makes sense and I don't think there are many likely scenarios that mean leaving the EU leads to the UK becoming a more environmentally responsible country than it would have been staying in the EU

[classycarra]

This is not the discussion I'm having though, what I'm saying is that leave/remain has become such a dominant conversation that it seems to muddy the waters of near enough all other policies proposed.

The Greens are pro remain to try and put themselves within the conversation, remainers are lapping that shit up...fine, but lets not pretend that it doesn't also eat in to the 'niche' they had carved themselves prior to making that decision to heavily back remain.

The Greens were (as far as I saw it) a party advocating quite radical change in a number of different ways, and slowly they are more and more becoming the party of the status quo. Remain is shaping their identity to such an extent that surely you have to wonder whether they still represent the same values to the same extent.

Weren't they anti big business anti big government? Rallying against the system we have put in place which is doing more damage than good. Nothing supports that foundation like being desperate to remain within the EU ay.

But hey, they're pro remain so thats good enough?

If by status quo you mean remaining in the EU, then yes it's probably doing more good than damage to their credibility - especially in terms of trying to attract voters from the apparently less 'status quo' labour party, whose radical policy appears to be to leave the EU and inflict economic turmoil and decline while pointing at the tories.