Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General  (Read 1298649 times)

Offline Phil M

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Offline ggcc14

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #1 on: July 4, 2017, 02:53:50 pm »
It's a great idea and when implemented properly could be a godsend. unfortunately all the evidence from the trials suggests that errors are still very common, which kind of negates the purpose and just slows down the game for no good reason.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #2 on: July 4, 2017, 03:03:35 pm »
If implemented in it's current form, it'll ruin the sport.

It's godawful, currently being used to affirm refereeing decisions.

It raises questions about the statute of limitations (if there was a slight offside off the ball thirty seconds before a goal, and the video refs deem it affected the play, then do you rule out the goal? If there's a foul throw 25 seconds beforehand from the defending team, and a goal is scored does the ref follow the rules and give the attackers a throw in instead of a goal?). This technology isn't making anything clearer, it still relies on human interpretation. It seems to favour divers too (looking only for contact before a penalty winning dive, to affirm the decision, rather than the legality of the contact).

It barely works in Rugby, and has killed that as a spectator sport (you have to wait a few minutes before bothering to cheer a try), and that is a sport much more conducive to stoppage.

Technology should be limited to the binary only, such as with goal line additions (which has been seamless, and added value). You could use it more transparently and consistently for retrospective actions, like say headbutting. But rushing to implement it now would be a disaster

Offline HighSix

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #3 on: July 4, 2017, 03:15:52 pm »
Much rather a virtual reality assistant ref. Locked in a Jonny Quest like set up.

Watching it on a shitty tv monitor with half the world watching your decision helps no one. 

Offline lamonti

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #4 on: July 4, 2017, 03:21:57 pm »
If implemented in it's current form, it'll ruin the sport.

It's godawful, currently being used to affirm refereeing decisions.

It raises questions about the statute of limitations (if there was a slight offside off the ball thirty seconds before a goal, and the video refs deem it affected the play, then do you rule out the goal? If there's a foul throw 25 seconds beforehand from the defending team, and a goal is scored does the ref follow the rules and give the attackers a throw in instead of a goal?). This technology isn't making anything clearer, it still relies on human interpretation. It seems to favour divers too (looking only for contact before a penalty winning dive, to affirm the decision, rather than the legality of the contact).

It barely works in Rugby, and has killed that as a spectator sport (you have to wait a few minutes before bothering to cheer a try), and that is a sport much more conducive to stoppage.

Technology should be limited to the binary only, such as with goal line additions (which has been seamless, and added value). You could use it more transparently and consistently for retrospective actions, like say headbutting. But rushing to implement it now would be a disaster

These are all the key points. It's a disaster in football. It works better in rugby, a more phase-based game that has used it for years with clear protocols about what gets checked – and even then it's frustrating to spectators and players and breaks up games.

In cricket, a sport entirely based around discrete events, it can work, but totally reduces the taking of wickets – the biggest event in the game – into an administrative event. "Out" only means "out" if one team has no appeals left – even if the stumps are skittled down towards the wicketkeeper they still review the no ball now. And in the case that a team has no appeals left, there's still potential for a completely incorrect decision being upheld because nobody appeals it.

In both cases, there's the argument that it also makes the referees/umpires worse at their jobs as they become reliant on the technology to dig them out of any spot, rather than busting their balls to be in the right place, to have seen the key incident.

Basically, video evidence in sport sounds better in theory than it has ever been in practice. The implementation in football by FIFA is really shockingly bad, and hopefully it will be what kills it stone dead.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2017, 03:24:53 pm by lamonti »

Offline Titi Camara

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #5 on: July 4, 2017, 03:39:33 pm »
Snip
Been saying it for years, get one in! The ref can refer to him whenever he wants just like rugby and the captains both get a set of challenges each just like in cricket, three each a game or summit.

It would add maybe 2-3 minutes a game tops but most importantly it would ensure that all the major decisions were 99% correct.

Offline ggcc14

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #6 on: July 4, 2017, 03:44:16 pm »
It would add maybe 2-3 minutes a game tops but most importantly it would ensure that all the major decisions were 99% correct.
We've just seen in the Confederations cup that this is clearly not the case.
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Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #7 on: July 4, 2017, 03:44:44 pm »
Yes, but it has to be implemented and used more effectively than it currently is.


I think it should only be used for certain transgressions of the rules, and not carte blanche across the entire laws of the game. To do so takes away the effectiveness of the on pitch officials, and over time will make the officials less effective and more lazy and reliant on the technology.

Which rules it can and can't be used for, have to be clearly defined, and the on pitch officials must call the rest of them, as they do now.

Offline Big Red Richie

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #8 on: July 4, 2017, 03:53:31 pm »
Been saying it for years, get one in! The ref can refer to him whenever he wants just like rugby and the captains both get a set of challenges each just like in cricket, three each a game or summit.

It would add maybe 2-3 minutes a game tops but most importantly it would ensure that all the major decisions were 99% correct.
I'm of the opinion, that where something is debatable on the pitch, the referee should signal to a TV judge to review the footage, whilst the game is still going on.

If then the TV ref sees something, the referee blows his whistle, points to the spot on the pitch the infringement occurred, and does the TV square thing with his hands (like in rugby), so the entire stadium then knows, it's been awarded by the TV referee. You then take the game back to that point.

If as the game goes on after the infringement and something major happens, like a goal to the other side, the goal is chalked off, like an illegal goal, and the game goes back to start where the infringement occurred.

If the infringement was in favour of side A. and side A then go on to score in that minute or so the TV ref is viewing the footage, then side A have to option of taking the infringement, or the goal. Yes we all know which they'd pick.

There is no major reason that the game should be stop and start any more than it is now, if the TV ref views the footage as the game is still carrying on.

Offline Titi Camara

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #9 on: July 4, 2017, 04:00:21 pm »
We've just seen in the Confederations cup that this is clearly not the case.
Not watched any of it...but what your saying is adding an extra layer of corruption, into a sporting tournament in possibly the most corrupt country on earth didn't go very well? ::)

Not sure that's technically evidence of fuck all myself ;D
I'm of the opinion, that where something is debatable on the pitch, the referee should signal to a TV judge to review the footage, whilst the game is still going on.

If then the TV ref sees something, the referee blows his whistle, points to the spot on the pitch the infringement occurred, and does the TV square thing with his hands (like in rugby), so the entire stadium then knows, it's been awarded by the TV referee. You then take the game back to that point.

If as the game goes on after the infringement and something major happens, like a goal to the other side, the goal is chalked off, like an illegal goal, and the game goes back to start where the infringement occurred.

If the infringement was in favour of side A. and side A then go on to score in that minute or so the TV ref is viewing the footage, then side A have to option of taking the infringement, or the goal. Yes we all know which they'd pick.

There is no major reason that the game should be stop and start any more than it is now, if the TV ref views the footage as the game is still carrying on.
Take your point and that buddy, keep the game going and the stoppages to a minimum but that's just too complicated imho. There's a bit of drama in waiting for a decision (as it's likely only going to be for fairly weighty stuff) so people won't mind waiting.

Also having a goal chalked off and everything pulled back would be a right kick in the jewels!
« Last Edit: July 4, 2017, 04:03:43 pm by Titi Camara »

Offline Ashburton

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #10 on: July 4, 2017, 04:05:13 pm »
I think we expected that there would be teething problems with the implementation.  The problem with football and VAR, as has been said, is the stoppages aren't fixed in their nature - you can get players wanting to score who are 3-1 down, where the leading team delays a restart using the VAR to stoppages. 

A bigger surprise is the expectation of perfection due to technology use.  At the end of the day you still have fans in pubs, or at home, disagreeing over a decision (often on this forum).  There will be an element of subjectivity for dives, penalties and offsides (especially active/inactive).

Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #11 on: July 4, 2017, 04:07:03 pm »
No.

It's fantastic in cricket.

However, that's a very different kind of sport. A similarish sport is Rugby League. There, week in week out decisions are still wrong. It actually makes it more infuriating that they still get it wrong when it's clear as day on screen. At least as it stands (we can try to believe  ???) incorrect decisions are at least made honestly.

The reason is that bad decision makers are bad decision makers regardless of replays. The problem that needs addressing and has done for the last few decades is the declining standard of refs and linesman.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #12 on: July 4, 2017, 04:08:31 pm »
I've always said that live technology should only be used to allow/disallow goals where there is a doubt regarding a) whether it crossed the line and b) whether the attacker was in an offside position. I've seen little of VAR in its current form to change my mind.

Football is such a complex, nuanced sport that VAR is simply bound to cause major delays to the game - and we see too few minutes of actual football during matches as it is.

If it really has to be there for less crucial decisions, then have it teetering in the background. There is no reason to stop the game for the sake of deciding whether something was a foul outside the area or a red card or whatever; let the men behind the scenes make the decisions and instruct or advise the referee to carry them out when the ball next goes out of play.

Offline Rysoph76

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #13 on: July 4, 2017, 04:09:27 pm »
Football appears to have approached this whole situation with massive arrogance. The powers that be clearly never wanted it in the first place and have dragged their heels and now they appear to be doing everything they can to discredit the whole VAR system. They seem determined to prove that what works for other sports would not work for football because it is a bigger sport than the others that use it.

Video replays work so well in so many sports that it is not as if they don't have test cases to work from yet there does not appear to have been any thought gone in to how it will actually work in practice.

To me, by far the best system seems to be to allow each manager 2 challenges per half with the challenge (as in tennis and american football), the challenge being kept if they were correct.

I would have a set period of time within which the challenge would have to be used (say 15 seconds) and the decision would go upstairs to a qualified video referee (as in cricket) who would then make the call.

There would not be an automatic review of each goal as happens in american football (as far as I recall) and the goal would only be reviewed if the manager challenged. I would not allow any other player to challenge, it would have to be the referee and that should then lessen the amount of arguing from the players as either the manager challenges or you shut the fuck up.

I think they will work it out as there is too much money involved in football now for teams to lose a big match to an offside goal or a handball.
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Offline CheshireDave

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #14 on: July 4, 2017, 04:17:16 pm »
Video technology in sport for me it only works for binary decisions. Has the ball crossed the goal line? Has the batsman made his ground on a run out? Has the ball made it over the try line? Has the ball landed inside the tram lines? Etc etc

The waters become too muddy when you have a committee of video referees making judgement calls on things like how much contact was made with a player for example off the back off a video reply.
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Offline CrasherKid79

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #15 on: July 4, 2017, 04:19:46 pm »
Video technology in sport for me it only works for binary decisions. Has the ball crossed the goal line? Has the batsman made his ground on a run out? Has the ball made it over the try line? Has the ball landed inside the tram lines? Etc etc

The waters become too muddy when you have a committee of video referees making judgement calls on things like how much contact was made with a player for example off the back off a video reply.

This^

Very concisely put mate. I meant this but went off on a tangent ha!!  ::)

Offline ggcc14

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #16 on: July 4, 2017, 04:21:05 pm »
Football appears to have approached this whole situation with massive arrogance. The powers that be clearly never wanted it in the first place and have dragged their heels and now they appear to be doing everything they can to discredit the whole VAR system. They seem determined to prove that what works for other sports would not work for football because it is a bigger sport than the others that use it.

Video replays work so well in so many sports that it is not as if they don't have test cases to work from yet there does not appear to have been any thought gone in to how it will actually work in practice.

To me, by far the best system seems to be to allow each manager 2 challenges per half with the challenge (as in tennis and american football), the challenge being kept if they were correct.

I would have a set period of time within which the challenge would have to be used (say 15 seconds) and the decision would go upstairs to a qualified video referee (as in cricket) who would then make the call.


What if as a manager, my defender makes a clear obstructive foul as the oppo counter attack, i deliberately use a challenge to disrupt their counter (quick freekick to resume play). I've improperly used a challenge and prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. That doesn't seem fair.
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #17 on: July 4, 2017, 04:25:58 pm »
What if as a manager, my defender makes a clear obstructive foul as the oppo counter attack, i deliberately use a challenge to disrupt their counter (quick freekick to resume play). I've improperly used a challenge and prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. That doesn't seem fair.

Exactly, it'll end up another tool for Mourinho to use if it ends up like this.

It was wank in the Confederations Cup, that's for sure.

Allows advertising in through the back door, slows down the game, and doesn't even bring a tangible benefit from what we've seen so far.

Fuck it off.
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Offline cissesbeard

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #18 on: July 4, 2017, 04:26:48 pm »
I think its good in theory and should work without any problems for offside decisions leading to goals.

penalties are just a nightmare - plenty of times the pundits will study a penalty decision and can't agree if it was a foul / dive.

but even though there are problems I think its worth persevering with for a while

Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #19 on: July 4, 2017, 04:28:42 pm »
I want it for offside calls... but even then I don't want it to overrule decisions where, like, half of someone's left thigh is offside (well, I don't know really, but that seems really pissy and pedantic and not what the offside rule was designed for). Then again, it is probably necessary to keep it like that to maintain the offside rule as a black-and-white thing.

But I really don't want referees looking at slow motion replays to change decisions on penalties or anything like that... it's such a grey area. Unless, for instance, there was absolutely no contact whatsoever, but a penalty was still given, I don't want VAR to interfere with the on-field decision.

What I'm saying is that I'm against VAR for anything that isn't black-and-white. Goal-line technology works because there is a black-and-white criterion that can be tested matter-of-fact-ly. "Was there enough contact?", "Was the handball deliberate?"... VAR won't resolve any controversy there.
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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #20 on: July 4, 2017, 04:40:23 pm »
What if as a manager, my defender makes a clear obstructive foul as the oppo counter attack, i deliberately use a challenge to disrupt their counter (quick freekick to resume play). I've improperly used a challenge and prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity. That doesn't seem fair.

Well you could cut it to 1 challenge per half. Then the manager wouldn't risk throwing it away just to disrupt a counter attack when he might need it later in the half.

I'm not saying I am in favour of it as such, i'd rather just have better refs and to get those clowns behind the goal to actually do something but if it's going to happen (and I can't see how it won't) then i'd like them to go with this approach.

One thing I wouldn't want is what they do in rugby (both codes if my memory serves) where they check 2 or 3 different areas of the same move in one replay as that is just overkill.
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Offline Skeeve

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #21 on: July 4, 2017, 04:59:39 pm »
There should be no team-originated challenges or anything like that, simply have the refs play advantage more and have the video ref verifying things while play continues, we already see how quickly the tv coverage can bring up the replays for their viewers after all.

Offline penga

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #22 on: July 4, 2017, 05:39:47 pm »
I'm genuinely baffled by people who don't want VAR at all - either corrupt or ignorant, and especially for us Liverpool fans who without sounding biased, have been on the end of more wrong decisions than right ones over the years. It is definitely a step in the right direction and I'm rooting for the guy that wants to bring this in at FIFA. Yes it is still open to corruption and mistakes but in my opinion, much less so than it currently is one of the main points is that it assists referees on the pitch a lot by taking huge pressure off them.

Remember referees only get 1 view of a situation from 1 angle - should their angle be obscured they can easily miss something or have the wrong perception.


At the very least they HAVE to implement it for offside goal situations as that is mostly black and white. If it is genuinely too close to tell then the VAR should have the option to stick with the ref's original call (mic up their decision to the audience if needed) like for the LBWs using hawkeye in cricket - as long as the big and clear offsides are called, there should be minimal outrage (those that still cry are irrational). Think of the CL final Real Madrid vs Atletico 2 seasons ago won by a solitary offside goal or the countless offside goals Man Utd scored this season including in the League Cup final or the countless offside decisions against us this season alone. It's simply unfair. A VAR decision on offsides can be done very quickly as well and considering in my view Liverpool get the shit end of the stick more often than not, VAR will benefit us. A side point it is also easier to determine on video if someone was interfering with the sight lines of the goalkeeper from an offside position.

If the trade off is between fairness and stoppages then I'd take fairness all day. I'm not English but I doubt all you Englishmen on here would've gladly accepted Maradona's hand of god as opposed to stopping the game and checking if it was a legit goal. If not then I'm sorry to say, you are crazy. But there are ways to minimise the impact on the flow of the game that people can come up with anyway.

In my opinion there should be no challenge system as it could be open to abuse and if you use it unwisely you can still be open to getting wronged during the game by a ref decision - so leave it to the ref team. I think the best option at this stage is to go with the VAR as like a silent ref who just watches the game and looks at any possible contentious decisions on replay in necessary and alert the ref if there is something blatantly wrong. For example if Fellaini or Costa elbowed or stamped someone off the ball and the ref didn't see it, the VAR could make a decision - foul, red card or yellow card. Now there can be debate about what card should be given but it is better than the ref missing the whole incident altogether no? If a ref is unsure of what decision to give, when there is a stoppage he should have the power to stop play and have it reviewed - better than guessing. If play is continuous after the incident, the VAR just looks at it himself and perhaps 30-60 seconds later alerts the on field ref of what happened and he has the power to go back to that point in the play.

For penalty, handball and foul decisions it becomes harder obviously. At this stage I would suggest only when there is clear evidence of no contact can the VAR call no foul or simulation (or when a player clearly deliberately sticks a leg out away from what is normal to draw the foul) otherwise it's the ref's initial call. If there is clear substantial contact on review then he can call penalty.  HOWEVER, again the on field ref may not have had the best view of the situation and is unsure - and he should be able to tell that to the VAR to make the decision. So what is the problem of a trained official who knows the rules and is acting as the VAR, making a decision IF the on field ref decides he didn't have a good perception of the incident? People may still be baffled by decisions and debate it but it reduces howlers and goes towards more fairness in the end.

Offline penga

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #23 on: July 4, 2017, 05:55:18 pm »
Exactly, it'll end up another tool for Mourinho to use if it ends up like this.

It was wank in the Confederations Cup, that's for sure.

Allows advertising in through the back door, slows down the game, and doesn't even bring a tangible benefit from what we've seen so far.

Fuck it off.
It wasn't wank. They were able to verify if goals were offside or not via video confirmation at least - but it appears the linesman did good jobs at the tournament so nothing was ruled in or out to my knowledge without having followed it too closely. The use of it elsewhere wasn't the best nor most efficient but it is on a process to improve. From reports this was a test run and the staff were under-prepared/equipped and also inexperienced as this was probably the 1st time they did this. So it can only improve.

I repeat, would you be happy to accept such a blatant action as Maradona's hand of god against you team or Henry's handball that denied Ireland a historic entry into the world cup? For me the stakes are simply too high to allow such blatant wrong decisions to stand. What about a wrong decision affecting the outcome in a 200-300mil worth play-off in the championship? What if Man Utd scored one of their many offside goals to win the title or beat us? What about mistaken identity? What about a ref forgetting a player has been booked twice already and giving him a 3rd yellow (Australia vs Croatia 2006 WC)? Do you not feel more intense anger when blatant decisions go against Liverpool as they so often do?

As opposed to what stopping the game for a few seconds to review the correctness of a decision and giving the ref some help if he needs it? I dunno it just seems an irrational view to me.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2017, 05:58:09 pm by penga »

Offline Rush 82

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #24 on: July 4, 2017, 06:25:30 pm »
Yes.

Implement proper protocols

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #25 on: July 4, 2017, 07:40:00 pm »
No, pretty pointless whilst referees make the wrong decisions even with the ability to see replays. Maybe get officials that actually do there job properly first.

It's been a useful exercise though, worth it alone for highlighting how utterly shite officials are at there job.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2017, 07:49:46 pm by Upinsmoke »

Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #26 on: July 4, 2017, 08:47:09 pm »
I repeat, would you be happy to accept such a blatant action as Maradona's hand of god against you team or Henry's handball that denied Ireland a historic entry into the world cup? For me the stakes are simply too high to allow such blatant wrong decisions to stand. What about a wrong decision affecting the outcome in a 200-300mil worth play-off in the championship? What if Man Utd scored one of their many offside goals to win the title or beat us? What about mistaken identity? What about a ref forgetting a player has been booked twice already and giving him a 3rd yellow (Australia vs Croatia 2006 WC)? Do you not feel more intense anger when blatant decisions go against Liverpool as they so often do?

These things happen, the Hand of God is a legendary football incident well known around the world, its a classic football story, like it or not these imperfections are part of the game.

You should try and eliminate them where you can, but if we're going to waste 2 minutes and make the wrong bloody decision anyway (blatant Chilean red) then what's the point?

It could get better, yes. But its still a referee making a decision, human error, stuff like penalty decisions are looked at time and time again and still nobody agrees. It's also opening the door that could lead to fundamental changes in the game that will make it worse, slow it down, give more premium advertising space, etc. etc. Not a worthwhile tradeoff.

Shit decisions are shit when they go against you. Agreed. But, hey, have you seen how much the ghost goal pisses Mourinho off? ;D
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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #27 on: July 5, 2017, 12:01:26 am »
Video technology in sport for me it only works for binary decisions. Has the ball crossed the goal line? Has the batsman made his ground on a run out? Has the ball made it over the try line? Has the ball landed inside the tram lines? Etc etc

The waters become too muddy when you have a committee of video referees making judgement calls on things like how much contact was made with a player for example off the back off a video reply.


Good post. I agree with this largely. Poll result is a little tighter than i expected. Seems most want to see some sort of tech involved to help eradicate the multitude of human errors we see every season.  But it has to be done right and I'm not sure this VAR version we saw in the Confed at least is there yet.
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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #28 on: July 5, 2017, 08:29:02 am »
Video technology in sport for me it only works for binary decisions. Has the ball crossed the goal line? Has the batsman made his ground on a run out? Has the ball made it over the try line? Has the ball landed inside the tram lines? Etc etc

The waters become too muddy when you have a committee of video referees making judgement calls on things like how much contact was made with a player for example off the back off a video reply.
Further examples:


1. Was the player offside or not?
2. Was there physical contact between the players or not?
3. Did the tackler get the ball first or the man first?




Offline penga

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #29 on: July 5, 2017, 09:14:45 am »
These things happen, the Hand of God is a legendary football incident well known around the world, its a classic football story, like it or not these imperfections are part of the game.

You should try and eliminate them where you can, but if we're going to waste 2 minutes and make the wrong bloody decision anyway (blatant Chilean red) then what's the point?

It could get better, yes. But its still a referee making a decision, human error, stuff like penalty decisions are looked at time and time again and still nobody agrees. It's also opening the door that could lead to fundamental changes in the game that will make it worse, slow it down, give more premium advertising space, etc. etc. Not a worthwhile tradeoff.

Shit decisions are shit when they go against you. Agreed. But, hey, have you seen how much the ghost goal pisses Mourinho off? ;D
The bolded part is an overly simplistic view in my opinion. It's not really a good example pointing out an error/controversy with VAR in it's infancy from the Confed cup - it was basically a trial with limited time and resources. One should assume the process will improve over time.

There will always be imperfections as part of the game but it doesn't mean we should accept it in it's mediocre state which is more open to corruption than when you have video evidence. Especially as the blatant ones and offsides can be more or less eliminated how is it not worthwhile? A fairer game is a better game, especially when the stakes can be very high. Were you against any of the offside goal checks during the tournament, did the VAR arrive at wrong decisions using that? I don't think so.

If implemented properly it wont even slow down the play that much anyway. There is already a stoppage if the ref calls for penalty or red card with a good 30 seconds give or take wasted by players themselves appealing for/against the referee's decision and more for setting up to take a penalty. There's also stoppages for goal celebrations that last a good 30 seconds to one minute. If you can arrive at decision via video replay within 30 seconds to minute, how is that really slowing the play down? Even if it takes an extra 30 seconds, how is that slowing the play down to a greatly detrimental effect than getting a key decision that could greatly influence a game reviewed?

There can still be contentious decisions with VAR but I don't see why it is more controversial that a referee viewing from multiple angles and replays to make a decision from video, than an on field ref making it from 1 angle and 1 view of the incident (sometimes obscured, sometimes missed). Maybe give the VAR a set time to review it and if they can't come up with a conclusive decision then go with the on field ref's original call. You see referees miss things all the time and guess as much as they don't like to admit it. VAR if implemented to a good standard takes the pressure off them and it should definitely be available for them to use if they didn't view a situation clearly. 

All of this VAR methodology is still up for debate and improvement, rather than rejecting the notion I think fans and the higher powers controlling the game should suggest and look at the best possible way to implement it. Technology is making many other sports a lot fairer so it should be introduced in football more progressively than just goal-line tech which is already in anyway (regarding the ghost goal - and besides it would've been a penalty for us and a red card for Cech had the goal not been awarded). I remember several bad decisions against us and some good decisions for Man City in the 2013-14 season such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu_iRztg0sU which no doubt influenced the title challenge. Decisions like that could've been avoided and made for a fairer season.

As for advertisements, I highly doubt broadcasters would cut to them just because of VAR. Pretty sure the fans would want to see those contentious decisions from the same multiple angles the VAR is looking at when the stoppage occurs otherwise there would be major outrage. Imagine some guy goes down for a penalty and instead of getting replays of the incident, it cuts straight to ads - just doesn't make any sense. It's not like broadcasters now cut to adverts after a goal is scored or a penalty/freekick is awarded where there is a 30 second window to play one - no there are already replays of the immediate incident/goal and I'd assume the same would happen for a VAR stoppage. I'm pretty sure they don't cut to adverts even when there is an injury that takes minutes to resolve, so tough to pin it on VAR if it does indeed happen in the future.

Offline classycarra

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #30 on: July 5, 2017, 09:56:10 am »
I'm of the opinion, that where something is debatable on the pitch, the referee should signal to a TV judge to review the footage, whilst the game is still going on.

If then the TV ref sees something, the referee blows his whistle, points to the spot on the pitch the infringement occurred, and does the TV square thing with his hands (like in rugby), so the entire stadium then knows, it's been awarded by the TV referee. You then take the game back to that point.

If as the game goes on after the infringement and something major happens, like a goal to the other side, the goal is chalked off, like an illegal goal, and the game goes back to start where the infringement occurred.

If the infringement was in favour of side A. and side A then go on to score in that minute or so the TV ref is viewing the footage, then side A have to option of taking the infringement, or the goal. Yes we all know which they'd pick.

There is no major reason that the game should be stop and start any more than it is now, if the TV ref views the footage as the game is still carrying on.
That sounds awe inspiring-ly terrible! So you want teams to continue to play football, knowing that any goal they score might not count? If that was my team, I'd get the keeper to piss about with the centre halves while the rest of the team take a drinks break. I'm sure the opposition would too. Why bother playing?

Offline Andy82lfc

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #31 on: July 5, 2017, 10:09:37 am »
The problem with there being any responsibility with the referee is that they will be susceptible to being stubborn twats like some of them can be. Just like the ref in the Chille v Portugal match, it was a clear penalty but he waved it away as he knew best, how many times will that happen with some of our refs?

They will also have shit rats like Herrera all over them the entire game to review anything. Why not just have a few officials behind a monitor and if they see something that goes against the ref, give him the signal and thats that. Even if they have to bring the game back 15 seconds, or pause while they review, it won't matter as long as they get it right. It takes away pressure on the ref and assistants, it takes away moaning players or managers.

Am I missing something? How is that difficult?

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #32 on: July 5, 2017, 10:36:39 am »
Further examples:

1. Was the player offside or not?
2. Was there physical contact between the players or not?
3. Did the tackler get the ball first or the man first?


No.

Offside, yes potentially could use it in this. But the whole was he or she interfering with play thing muddies the water.

The other 2 examples are too ambiguous and as mentioned even with with slow mo's and various angles so called experts often cannot agree on the correct outcome of the incident.

Getting to the ball first ins't always an indicator of whether a foul has been committed or not. What if a player comes through the back of another player, clips the ball and proceeds to smash the player their tackling?
« Last Edit: July 5, 2017, 10:38:56 am by CheshireDave »
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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #33 on: July 5, 2017, 11:28:58 am »
That sounds awe inspiring-ly terrible! So you want teams to continue to play football, knowing that any goal they score might not count? If that was my team, I'd get the keeper to piss about with the centre halves while the rest of the team take a drinks break. I'm sure the opposition would too. Why bother playing?
The point being, you are not stopping the play and standing around awaiting a decision.

The play only stops to award an infringement.

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #34 on: July 5, 2017, 02:43:59 pm »
as needy would say naaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy.   Takes the controversy away, goes for you sometimes and against you others but that is the beauty of the game isnt it? that unpredictability is what keeps you on the edge.   Give me a controversial away win , last minute winner, against the mancs or the bitters any day of the week. So much sweeter with a bit of controversy (in our favour of course)
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Offline 4pool

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #35 on: July 5, 2017, 02:48:25 pm »
Posted this in the confed cup thread:


Managers are to emotional to decide when to use their one challenge or two challenges.

It works in the NFL because there is a team of coaches in the booth watching the replays and can buzz the manager to challenge a call.

There are no coaches with the ability to buzz a football/soccer manager and say challenge that one.


As an example, the call that didn't go Chile's way regarding the shove. The manager challenges, the ref looks , and the ref decides it's not a strong enough push to stop the player from going for his header, and decides he got the call right the first time.

Refs are not going to over rule themselves using VAR unless it really is a blatant thing they missed.




And posted this...

You want blatant missed calls looked at..which means every call will get looked at. Slows the match down. Constant VAR reviews, supporters in attendance getting irritated at the stoppage of play time and again, all for  most every call to stand as called on the field.

The enthusiasm will soon run out for those who go.

Those who watch on the telly or stream it won't give a shit as they're posting away it was, no it wasn't, yes it was, imho it..yada yada yada.

The game is in the stadium NOT at home or wherever else one watches.
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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #36 on: July 5, 2017, 02:56:46 pm »
Yes but not the way it's implemented at the moment, should go down the Rugby/Cricket route which is how VAR should be used, as in those sports you can hear what the Ref asks the VAR to look for, & hear the verdict from the VAR.
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Offline Rush 82

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #37 on: July 5, 2017, 03:01:22 pm »
No.

Offside, yes potentially could use it in this. But the whole was he or she interfering with play thing muddies the water.

The other 2 examples are too ambiguous and as mentioned even with with slow mo's and various angles so called experts often cannot agree on the correct outcome of the incident.

Getting to the ball first ins't always an indicator of whether a foul has been committed or not. What if a player comes through the back of another player, clips the ball and proceeds to smash the player their tackling?
What do the rules of football say? Surely that's the criterion?

Offline 4pool

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #38 on: July 5, 2017, 03:10:19 pm »
Yes but not the way it's implemented at the moment, should go down the Rugby/Cricket route which is how VAR should be used, as in those sports you can hear what the Ref asks the VAR to look for, & hear the verdict from the VAR.

Again..just so those in the crowd can hear doesn't effect the call one way or the other.

I'll go back to the Incident with Chile. The ref didn't call it. He still used VAR and still said no pen. Now loads thought it was a pen. How would hearing, not enough evidence to change the call,  is going to help?

There is and will always be debates on the ref got it wrong, even with VAR, .

You WILL be told to accept that even with VAR it won't be perfect. So if it isn't perfect, why implement it?

It is nothing more than a judgement call by------another Ref. Probably a Ref from the senior tour, aka, retired Ref. Not a panel of three current FIFA refs like at the ConFed Cup.

Do you seriously think Mike Riley or Graham Poll or another VAR ref will overturn a call against Man Utd? They will use their get out of jail card--not enough evidence.


But the final piece is, and this is why VAR will get introduced, is to get adverts into the game while the match is going on. This VAR review brought to you by BetFair...lol. Then a short 15-30 second advert spot, which comes back from the advert to a live --oh we now have the review answer ( even though it took 5 seconds).

Those at the match just suffer waiting for a call which has slowed the game down. A team on attack putting pressure on the opposition..VAR call..defending team catch a break, their manager tweaks his side, they refresh themselves with water, and now are fresh again physically and mentally as they not under the kosh.


And you will be told---you will be sold---this is all to do with getting the calls right. Even though it won't be perfect. It's not about the calls in the  match but increasing revenues for FA's and clubs.


As one wise old sage once said----Follow the money.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2017, 03:12:31 pm by 4pool »
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Offline 4pool

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Re: POLL: VAR (Video Assistant Referee) - Yay or Nay?
« Reply #39 on: July 5, 2017, 03:13:30 pm »
Oh and for the record..my answer to this poll is not no, but hell no.  ;D
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