Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1185324 times)

royhendo

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"Pass and move" and a few other quotes from Paisley and Shanks will show you that they were always thinking of players that can do simple things that lead to brilliant things with the ball and then make more space in which to do it again.  It's a simple formula really, and if you have a team of intelligent footballers you can do things with far less effort. 

Sometimes I wonder if footballers aren't held back by the fact that they spend so much time playing football and almost zero time thinking about it, or anything else for that matter.  Steve Heighway is a good example of the intelligent player who came from out of university and into Liverpool FC showing a level of thinking and poise that comes from, in my opinion, being more rounded of a person than just a footballer.  Zidane is a highly intelligent player, and his intelligence shows on and off the pitch (most of the time, but then he never went to university did he?).. I think there are tons of intelligent footballers who get run out of the system by precociousness.  The idea that if you can't make it when you are 14 you will be useless when you are 19-30 is complete and utter bollox.  Players can learn, evolve, grow into players who far exceed earlier expectations. 

Back to the post, its hard to find players who can understand tactics on this level, let alone display them on the pitch.  Part of the problem is the system, another part is that its hard to teach people to think on the pitch when they do almost no thinking off it.  If you really want a dominant team, start a youth academy that encourages education and sports theory, coaching concepts, training the mind as well as the body.   You could get far more interesting players out of the system for it, imo.

enjoyed that mate, thanks.

It was interesting (for once) to hear Dean Saunders talk during the 1860 friendly about the messages drummed into players' heads in his time at the club.

He said something like "we were always told to pass pass pass pass pass - keep moving the ball - and eventually they'll run out of defenders and we're in".

For me that's a good description of circulation football, and we had a squad full of players who could function that way; but they could also adapt when needed and grind results out, or keep things tight and hit on the break.

Saunders came in from Derby after starting out at Oxford United. He doesn't immediately strike you as a massively intelligent man, but he did have the kind of football 'smarts' that fitted the bill at Liverpool.

I guess you could liken it to learning to drive - you can learn the highway code and the Hayes manual for the car, but if you sat your driving test with that preparation alone, you'd fail miserably. It's only with practical experience and coaching to the level where good habits become unconscious/subconscious that you truly master the skill.

I think the same applies to football. Everyone has the same basic 'wiring' inside their brains (although granted some are freaks who are just way beyond what others are capable of), so if people are coached well (and by God our players were coached as well as anyone from Shanks to Kenny), they'll learn what they need to learn in mind, heart, and gut. They don't need to be grade A students or be academically intelligent as such - possibly that overcomplicates things (Michels makes interesting points on this in his book, saying 'players have a right to know the reasons they perform each training routine', and 'spanish players are more accepting of what their coach tells them to do, whereas dutch footballers come from a culture where everyone questions the reasons' - he acknowledges the strife that's brought their national squads over the years as players opinions come to the fore).

Anyway, I don't think the players need to understand the nuts and bolts of the tactical theory; they just need to understand form and function, and gradually embody their role in the collective unit, the basic principles of the club's football (traditionally 'The Liverpool Way'), and what they're expected to do in different situations. It's complex, but it's also got to be intuitive, which is where bravery, responsibility, and mentality come in I guess.

It'd be interesting to know how much 'book learning' goes on at the Academy - wonder if Gedo could provide some insight on that front actually... might pm and ask!

anyway, great post and some really thought-provoking points.

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enjoyed that mate, thanks.

It was interesting (for once) to hear Dean Saunders talk during the 1860 friendly about the messages drummed into players' heads in his time at the club.

He said something like "we were always told to pass pass pass pass pass - keep moving the ball - and eventually they'll run out of defenders and we're in".

For me that's a good description of circulation football, and we had a squad full of players who could function that way; but they could also adapt when needed and grind results out, or keep things tight and hit on the break.

Saunders came in from Derby after starting out at Oxford United. He doesn't immediately strike you as a massively intelligent man, but he did have the kind of football 'smarts' that fitted the bill at Liverpool.

I guess you could liken it to learning to drive - you can learn the highway code and the Hayes manual for the car, but if you sat your driving test with that preparation alone, you'd fail miserably. It's only with practical experience and coaching to the level where good habits become unconscious/subconscious that you truly master the skill.

I think the same applies to football. Everyone has the same basic 'wiring' inside their brains (although granted some are freaks who are just way beyond what others are capable of), so if people are coached well (and by God our players were coached as well as anyone from Shanks to Kenny), they'll learn what they need to learn in mind, heart, and gut. They don't need to be grade A students or be academically intelligent as such - possibly that overcomplicates things (Michels makes interesting points on this in his book, saying 'players have a right to know the reasons they perform each training routine', and 'spanish players are more accepting of what their coach tells them to do, whereas dutch footballers come from a culture where everyone questions the reasons' - he acknowledges the strife that's brought their national squads over the years as players opinions come to the fore).

Anyway, I don't think the players need to understand the nuts and bolts of the tactical theory; they just need to understand form and function, and gradually embody their role in the collective unit, the basic principles of the club's football (traditionally 'The Liverpool Way'), and what they're expected to do in different situations. It's complex, but it's also got to be intuitive, which is where bravery, responsibility, and mentality come in I guess.

It'd be interesting to know how much 'book learning' goes on at the Academy - wonder if Gedo could provide some insight on that front actually... might pm and ask!

anyway, great post and some really thought-provoking points.

100% agree
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its hard to find players who can understand tactics on this level, let alone display them on the pitch.  Part of the problem is the system, another part is that its hard to teach people to think on the pitch when they do almost no thinking off it. 

Rubbish. A bit snobbish in fact. Rafa talks of 'game intelligence' and he means it as something different to IQ or 'academic intelligence'. I've seen university dons who can't judge a bouncing ball. It makes them look like a cretin. Whereas Gascoigne never quite got his Ph.D but he absolutely understood the dimensions and possibilities of what happened on a football field.

If Michels's ideas can't be coached to anyone below degree level then you'd have to throw the book at him....literally.

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Offline Xabier Alonso Olano

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Great read.

It tides in with Rafa's quotes about following Arsenal's philosophy with raising youth and implimenting a structure at Liverpool.

Patience is the lesson to be taken from the post. The most important thing that AW and Fergy have had over Rafa is TIME. Anyone that cannot see the constant development of the first team, the reserves and the changes in philosophy with the youth players, are idiotic.

AW talked about the changes he made to the Arsenal youth setup when he arrived, and said only now will they bear the benefits of the changes. He said there are now players in their academy aged 14/15 that he knows will be the worlds best when they are ready. The training structure has taken him the best part of 7/8 years to fully impliment where homegrown talent is developed to the required standard on a regular basis. On a side note, watch for Jack Wilshire, he looks a player and a half.

The total revamp of the youth setup for us, has bought us in line with the rest of the top European clubs, we may have even pushed it forward again. I can remeber seeing an article where one Piet talked about how all of the youth lads upto the ages of 16 at Liverpool before he took over had little chance of making the step up to the first team as they weren't technically good enough. This is what has hindered the progress of English youngsters in the modern game. I look to Massimo Maccarone's comments on Steve McClaren:

"Only in England would a coach whose training methods are 15 years out of date, get the chance to manage the national side".

I can see the changes the all of the top four have made to their youth policy. Chelsea's seems the least settled, but that is understandable considering the win now mentality that Romans Billions demand. Lack of Patience.

It is quite clear to see the shape and style Rafa wants for us, and how he changes that style year on year as he understands the beats of the Premiership and the weaknesses of the Premiership more and more. The post articulates that perfectly.

Il be reading it again. Making references to it too, thanks for putting it together.

royhendo

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great debate this...

now - i'd like to understand more clearly what the actual drills used are (cos i'm interested in that kind of stuff) but from what i know from reading, watching, and seeing coaching in other sports, this kind of tactical work is literally 'baked in' to players, and i guess the reason it works best with youngsters is that they've not built up bad habits beforehand that need to be undone.

When i say 'baked in', I mean the players kind of learn the right things without even realising they've learned lessons. But there are different levels of 'realisation'.

first up, you'll get a player who learns to react instinctively, but who doesn't think about it too much or feel like they 'own' their reasons for acting in a certain way. This is like a learner driver who gets a feel for the 'biting point' on a hill start, and can control the car fine to get from a to b.

These kinds of instinctive player can do a great job for you but there's another level which i get the feeling true top players and leaders need.

these players feel it's their choice to react in a certain way on the park - they 'own' the tactical information, you know?

i'm guessing here to an extent, but that hints at why rafa always works on carragher to 'analyse the play', how he holds such a high opinion of pellegrino, and so forth. these are the players capable of 'doing the manager's job out on the pitch'. i suppose generally they're the players who go on to study for their coaching badges after their playing careers end.

from what i can gather, ayesteran and rafa added to the UEFA-coached integration method (where everything's done in a game context - fitness, ball work, everything). mourinho bigs himself up on this front too - he calls it the 'guided realisation method', but it's essentially the same thing as they all learn on the UEFA course I think. You set the players out and use some way of questioning the group - you freeze the play, for example, and ask them all 'are you in the right position here? do you think if this happened, you'd be able to get in the right position to cover?'. The players learn to think about it for themselves, and quickly get to a stage where they position themselves well relative to each other and the set up of the opposing team.

Rafa apparently walks through the team with the ball in his hands doing this - there's a bit in Lloret's book about it - and as far as I know this principle is extended throughout the training to get players individually and collectively to make good choices on the park.

So no book learning as such, but some players will look more deeply into it than others and maybe those guys are the ones who don't just go from 'a to b' (to come back to the learner driver metaphor), but can handle all situations right up to the Lombard Rally, Le Mans, and InterLagos in the wet.

Type stuff...


(not sure all that makes much sense, hehey!)

Offline ajayanfielder

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For that reason, I'd call on everyone to check their expectations this year, no matter how many titles our rivals have accumulated - remember how close we are, remember how good our project is, and remember how hard it is to find talent of the sort we have at the helm of the club.

Amen to that.

Great long post.I dun reply in this forum as I dun have time to,but just a 'read only' person.
But this topic deserves an applause.

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Offline mgrlane

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I took one look and thought bollocks to that.I wouldn't understand it anyway.

Show some respect lad, hours went into this, slowly read it, its fantastic, way higher and in depth than any tabloid shite.

Respect

Offline amoh

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great debate this...

now - i'd like to understand more clearly what the actual drills used are (cos i'm interested in that kind of stuff) but from what i know from reading, watching, and seeing coaching in other sports, this kind of tactical work is literally 'baked in' to players, and i guess the reason it works best with youngsters is that they've not built up bad habits beforehand that need to be undone.

When i say 'baked in', I mean the players kind of learn the right things without even realising they've learned lessons. But there are different levels of 'realisation'.

first up, you'll get a player who learns to react instinctively, but who doesn't think about it too much or feel like they 'own' their reasons for acting in a certain way. This is like a learner driver who gets a feel for the 'biting point' on a hill start, and can control the car fine to get from a to b.

These kinds of instinctive player can do a great job for you but there's another level which i get the feeling true top players and leaders need.

these players feel it's their choice to react in a certain way on the park - they 'own' the tactical information, you know?

i'm guessing here to an extent, but that hints at why rafa always works on carragher to 'analyse the play', how he holds such a high opinion of pellegrino, and so forth. these are the players capable of 'doing the manager's job out on the pitch'. i suppose generally they're the players who go on to study for their coaching badges after their playing careers end.

from what i can gather, ayesteran and rafa added to the UEFA-coached integration method (where everything's done in a game context - fitness, ball work, everything). mourinho bigs himself up on this front too - he calls it the 'guided realisation method', but it's essentially the same thing as they all learn on the UEFA course I think. You set the players out and use some way of questioning the group - you freeze the play, for example, and ask them all 'are you in the right position here? do you think if this happened, you'd be able to get in the right position to cover?'. The players learn to think about it for themselves, and quickly get to a stage where they position themselves well relative to each other and the set up of the opposing team.

Rafa apparently walks through the team with the ball in his hands doing this - there's a bit in Lloret's book about it - and as far as I know this principle is extended throughout the training to get players individually and collectively to make good choices on the park.

So no book learning as such, but some players will look more deeply into it than others and maybe those guys are the ones who don't just go from 'a to b' (to come back to the learner driver metaphor), but can handle all situations right up to the Lombard Rally, Le Mans, and InterLagos in the wet.

Type stuff...


(not sure all that makes much sense, hehey!)
Sounds very Rafa like this. I can imagine it to be the reason the likes of Cisse, Baros, Bellamy and in my opinion Pennant won't make much of a Liverpool career, whereas a true student of the game such as Carra has excelled under him.

Offline Salty Dog

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Absolutely brilliant.  Let's all get behind Rafa so he can see his vision through to its fruition.
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Offline ScouseThommy

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awsome post.

Offline R.A.La

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Great post.

I think when Rafa took over the team we were playing some "Level one" football. Not from fear of relegation, but maybe the weight of expectations

Towards the end under Ged I think the mentality was all wrong, I allways used to say that we were "so scared of losing that we forgot how to win" and in lots of games we deffo played "backs to the wall" footy.

Maybe we still have some issues with mentality (results against the mancs in particuler would suggest this) but we have improved on this thoughout Rafa's tenure, and I hope this season we go out and show it.

Just before Pako left, wasn't part of the problem something to do with Rafa wanting to make "the next step" but Pako saying we wern't ready? (sorry couldn't be arsed to dig through all the articles from the time - I'm sure someone will know) was this the transition to level 3 football?

Anyway, once again thanks for a great insight into Rafa's thinking.






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fantastic post,

thanks for sharing that with us, just from that post alone i will be watching the lads in a different way this season.

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I think Plesis fives a great example of the situation Hamberg spoke of...where you compare the youth with their first team equivalent and if the young player is better, you get rid of the first team player (my paraphrase). After watching Plesis for the first time yesterday, he reminds me a lot of Momo Sissoko but with a bit of Xabi Alonso in him. He sprayed the ball well and seemed to have a "monster" engine. I think this would go a long way toward explaining why Momo was sold in January because IIRC it came out of the blue almost.

I also watched the way the team played yesterday and in certain phases especially in the first half, you could see some really good circulation football and also 1 touch football. A lot of the players seemed comfortable on the ball and they tried to play more adventurous football (high defense line and keeping the ball in opposition half) Although it didn't come to that much in the end, you can see Rafa's idea of football coming through and you can see that we are close to something special. I just hope that unrealistic expectations and pressure from misguided fans or ex-players with their own agenda does not derail the Liverpool project.
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Offline choi

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Can't believe i've just finished reading that!

Abslutely brilliant post. I definately think Rafa has read that book before :D

Offline thechulloran

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Awesome post!

So Level 3 teams primarily play possession football and can counter attack effectively when the opportunity arises. I once stupidly thought that a Rinus Michel would deliberatekly snob off an opportunity to counter just to play beautiful possession football.

Here is a piece I found on a Milan forum about Arrigo Sacchi(one of Rafa's influences)
http://www.milanmania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17681
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Just re-read that again and must say how embarrassed it makes me feel about my shortsightedness and drunken rants aimed towards rafa...usually after a loss or when he did'nt play the team i wanted..brilliant post
Indeed...

royhendo

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thechulloran - thanks for posting that article on sacchi. I really enjoyed it and it's got me rethinking the squad depth issue - very interesting.

for those who read it, do you think we 'press' (with 2 and 3 players) or 'force' (with 1player)?

pederzoli said rafa wants physically imposing players and the ability to close down space is paramount... 

Offline JadoBonito

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thechulloran - thanks for posting that article on sacchi. I really enjoyed it and it's got me rethinking the squad depth issue - very interesting.

for those who read it, do you think we 'press' (with 2 and 3 players) or 'force' (with 1player)?

pederzoli said rafa wants physically imposing players and the ability to close down space is paramount... 

Yeah thanks for posting the link as well as the original post!  Both fantastic reads.

I'm not sure if we truly press, I'm under the impression we merely force.  My guess is pressing would be another sign of a Level 3 team, wouldn't it?  As Rafa starts to have more confidence in our team's capacity, I'm pretty sure we'll see more pressing.

No harm trying it against the weaker teams...
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Offline jackfrancis

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enjoyed that mate, thanks.

It was interesting (for once) to hear Dean Saunders talk during the 1860 friendly about the messages drummed into players' heads in his time at the club.

He said something like "we were always told to pass pass pass pass pass - keep moving the ball - and eventually they'll run out of defenders and we're in".

For me that's a good description of circulation football, and we had a squad full of players who could function that way; but they could also adapt when needed and grind results out, or keep things tight and hit on the break.

Saunders came in from Derby after starting out at Oxford United. He doesn't immediately strike you as a massively intelligent man, but he did have the kind of football 'smarts' that fitted the bill at Liverpool.

I guess you could liken it to learning to drive - you can learn the highway code and the Hayes manual for the car, but if you sat your driving test with that preparation alone, you'd fail miserably. It's only with practical experience and coaching to the level where good habits become unconscious/subconscious that you truly master the skill.

I think the same applies to football. Everyone has the same basic 'wiring' inside their brains (although granted some are freaks who are just way beyond what others are capable of), so if people are coached well (and by God our players were coached as well as anyone from Shanks to Kenny), they'll learn what they need to learn in mind, heart, and gut. They don't need to be grade A students or be academically intelligent as such - possibly that overcomplicates things (Michels makes interesting points on this in his book, saying 'players have a right to know the reasons they perform each training routine', and 'spanish players are more accepting of what their coach tells them to do, whereas dutch footballers come from a culture where everyone questions the reasons' - he acknowledges the strife that's brought their national squads over the years as players opinions come to the fore).

Anyway, I don't think the players need to understand the nuts and bolts of the tactical theory; they just need to understand form and function, and gradually embody their role in the collective unit, the basic principles of the club's football (traditionally 'The Liverpool Way'), and what they're expected to do in different situations. It's complex, but it's also got to be intuitive, which is where bravery, responsibility, and mentality come in I guess.

It'd be interesting to know how much 'book learning' goes on at the Academy - wonder if Gedo could provide some insight on that front actually... might pm and ask!

anyway, great post and some really thought-provoking points.

Thanks for responding, and giving some positive feedback on these points I raised...

A lot of my Liverpool knowledge is hand-me-down stuff from my Dad, a Liverpool die-hard and an intellectual to boot.

The reason I mention academics, and book learning, is that I believe there is something fundamentally enlightening about education that teaches anyone, whether a serious footballer or someone who truly is an academic, things about life, sports, philosophy, the big 3 for footballers really, that can expand their world-view beyond the ups and downs of season to season performance.

One of the things that pleases me, perhaps beyond all other aspects of Rafa's approach to management, is the fact that he is continually looking for the 'next big breakthrough player'.. It's that attitude that I think is responsible for our #1 finish in the reserve league last season, and what will eventually, if Rafa stays on this course, separate us from the pack.  I think I harped on a very specific point about academy level football, a point that may or may not be apparent to the casual fan, but ultimately holds the key to success when looking at any team as a 'team' and not just a group of players who play for a club.  I in no way think Rafa is on the wrong track.. we can already see the promise of the young players he has selected, pushed, and moulded into the kind of player needed to take Liverpool to the next level in Prem football.

 I guess what I'm driving at is that, we see players come and go, develop and grow, show promise that has everyone waiting with baited breath for their 'breakthrough', but what we can't break away from is that old standby that, unless a player shows phenomenal, exceptional promise in the reserves, we can't wait for them to develop into something.. we take action on players, young players, as early as 16, 17.. and they get loaned out and watched from afar.. will they or won't they take their game to the next level?   

When you talk about the "next level" abstractly, you find yourself trying to define what cutting edge players are and aren't, very distinctly and in terms that I believe should not apply to them.  We saw Nemeth and Pacheco both show signs of brilliance vs Villareal, but neither of them did anything exceptional.  They both did things that were _almost_ exceptional, almost produced match winners.. and that is what I think should be focussed on.  A lot of fans of the oldschool mentality re reserve players would say, well, look, they didn't come up with the goods then, why should we expect them to suddenly turn around and do something different the next time they are given a chance.  And that is precisely what I think is the wrong attitude to take toward a young player, a reserve player especially.. The commentators of the Villareal game said it a few times, the flick-ons and chips they tried to beat Villareal with weren't good enough in that game to produce a moment of brilliance against a quality side.. maybe a reserve-level side... but who is to say that given another chance they wouldn't adapt and suddenly produce game winning passes, flick-ons, touches.. the stuff that you expect at the top level?

Both Pachecho and Nemeth took good solid chances, and narrowly missed producing a moment of worldbeater class.  Spearing's volley at the end of regulation was a great example of what these young players are thinking when they play.. "give me a chance, and I'll take on the world"... yet so many of them fail to produce when it comes to top level competition.  Sure we can dismiss their failures to give us match winning moments in these pre-season friendlies as an indication of their inability to perform in the prem.. or, conversely, and far less likely.. view those efforts that narrowly fail as signs that given time to adjust to better defense, better teams in general, they could raise their game to a a level that fits in with our needs.  I'm of the view that players, especially young players in the reserves, should be given more chances, more games, and more encouragement to raise their level of play. 

Why not give Nemeth, Pacheco, Spearing, et al, games against weaker opposition in the prem.   Surely it wouldn't hurt us to start these young debutantes against the likes of Hull, Derby, Sunderland.. the newly promoted, etc, in an effort to see what they are capable of given the onus of perform or be forgotten.  While we rely on getting results against these weaker sides to cement our position in the top 4, surely our veteran players can bail us out of embarrassing draws, or should be able to.  Lets cement our position as a dominant team through trial and error before we get scared of not claiming points against vastly inferior opposition..  That way, we can know 100% that we have the right players on the pitch and not second-guess ourselves when it comes to taking risks.
This is all speculation of course, but I think until we are established as a squad that provides consistent results game in and game out, we shouldn't be afraid to see who is capable of what.

royhendo

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just to open this debate up in more detail - here are a few quotes from the article on sacchi's milan (cheers again to thechulloran for a great read: http://www.milanmania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17681 ).

Quote
Paolo Maldini writes in his book, Il Calcio (Sperling and Kupfer edition, 1996), “that the Sacchi tactic was very tiring and exhausting. After a few years, we could not continue at these rhythms”. Sacchi wanted to take the pressure all the way to the penalty box of the opposition.  We would feel an enormous fatigue as a result of this tactic. A lot of players of great quality would suffer from it and dread it, others would have to adapt to the tactical demands of the Sacchiano scheme.



Quote
What differentiates one type of zone from another one? From a general point of view, it has to do with the manner to press and to apply the offside trap. One can apply pressing at about the half way line, at about ¾ of the field or close to the opposition’s penalty box. Pressings are defined “high”, “median” or “low” based on how far it is applied from the penalty box of the opposition.

The more it is applied inside the opposition’s half, the more the pressing is “high”. Of course, this type of pressing is a lot more demanding and tiring and requires more energy as it means that the whole team is required to apply it regularly. Every player does their best not to concede a goal by preventing the opposition from entering into their own half. On the other hand, if the defence is positioned on the half way line, going beyond that line without ending up offside is very difficult for the opposition. What this boils down to is to completely asphyxiate the opponents physically inside their own half by pressing them as soon as they have the ball. This type of zone is highly suggestive and almost impossible. This was the zone of the first years of Sacchi.  But it is nowadays only a romantic expression and souvenir. Impossible to achieve that type of a zone but only for a few minutes in a match.

A more human and realizable zone is Fabio Capello’s zone. The “we must absolutely do it” of Capello took place of the exhaustion of Sacchi. The team was no longer able to stand nor manage the physical demands and workload of this Sacchiano system. Capello made a lower pressing and transformed it into a type of forcing. What’s the difference between the two types of zone? Simple. The simultaneous pressing and attacking of 2 or 3 players on the carrier of the ball. If you attack the opponent who has the ball with one man, it is called forcing. The difference is considerable and it implies a game plan and model almost entirely different. Pressing man by another man is normal. The forcing is when everyone presses with aggressivity their designated opponent. Pressing the opponent who has the ball with 2 or 3 players means being in numerical inferiority somewhere else on the field, meaning that if 3 men are on this zone of the field, these men will not be on at least 2 other zones. And the numerical superiority is at the base of the goal.

If you analyse carefully each goal, you would find that the direct or indirect cause of it to be a moment of numerical superiority. This means that if the pressing is successful, you get the ball back and start a collective counter attack. If the opponent manages to pass the ball to a partner, this means that the pressing must move towards the zone where the ball is now, but because of that, the equilibrium of the game is not respected anymore. And if the opponent manages to free from the pressing, the team is immediately in great difficulty since in an obvious numerical inferiority. This necessity of not being in danger makes it imperative to use to foul, each time that a team is collectively in danger and the pressing is eliminated. This is the famous tactical foul that we see at least 30 times per game.

i'm not sure on this, but there are a few avenues i'd like to look at in more depth.

It makes me think of players like Momo and Dirk Kuyt really, and of course Masch. I guess with limited 'quality' in closing down space (people who can close things down on their own like the three above), you really need to press in groups of 2 and 3, and that wears down the squad if it's not deep enough. Saying that, though, we've seen players who still play the majority of games regardless of how knackering things get, so I have a hard time squaring that with the need for such a deep squad.

I reckon Pederzoli's words were interesting on the recruitment front.

http://aliverpoolthing.blogspot.com/2007/06/truth-behind-liverpools-italian-rumours.html

Quote
Pederzoli also reveals Benitez's fascination with Italian football. "He describes Arrigo Sacchi as the greatest manager of the modern era. Rafa often came to Italy to meet him, to study his methods.

They both have a lot of things in common: their attention to detail, the importance that they put closing down space and how they choose their players."

In fact, it is drummed into all of the club's scouts that Benitez does not want flashy players but instead disciplined ones who are physically imposing.

"He does not judge a striker simply by the number of goals that he scores. He wants players who are fair and tough. That is why Liverpool didn't have player sent off in the league."

There's a thread on it here: http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=223011.msg4480363#msg4480363%20date=1214394353

Anyway, would it be fair to say that with those 'scouting guidelines' in mind, we aim to press, and press high [level 3 in the sacchi mould] but sometimes based on available personnel, we have to 'force'?

Also, what are the best examples of times when we've 'pressed' high up the pitch in groups of two and three? (And I mean against top sides, not the Newcastles of this world...)

Edit:

Actually, it's an oversimplified view I'm taking here, isn't it? Sometimes you press, sometimes you force, but you have to pick your moments to press high. That's something that reminds me of the Mourinho point on 'resting the ball' - that one indirect goal of the game (as well as outscoring the opponent) is to use pre-determined routines that wear down the opponent physically until they're knackered. So you play something like circulation football but the idea is to make the other side chase and chase and chase.

i remember rafa commenting on gerrard when he arrived saying he'd make him a better player because he'd help him pick his runs and conserve his energy (no idea where to find the quote). i guess that's the flip side of the same coin.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2008, 08:51:09 am by royhendo »

Offline baz

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Awesome post sir! And anything that reveals the extraordinary talent that we have in Senor Rafa is worth more than its weight in its gold. It is unbelievable to think that we were close to having Rafa taken away from us.

There is no doubt in my mind that a fully backed Rafa would create a monster of a club that would dominate both English and European football for years to come. Well done Royhendo. Well done Rafa. Let the Rafalution continue!

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I read the whole post 2 days ago and was trying to find something about it on the internet - excerpts from the book and stuff.

Amazing stuff.
Top post.

I'm ordering the book off Amazon.

We're getting our very own attacking triumvirate this season - Torres, Keane, Gerrard!
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I'd also recommend linking this article to Paco Ayesteran's views on Liverpool's prospect of winning the Premier League given at the beginning of last year.  It was an affront to many of the rabid Liverpool fan's, who ascribe to the philosophy that attitude is everything (er . . . 'mentality'?) - but good food for thought when you compare the current article of Liverpool's development to what the coaching staff's overall goal is.

I've been looking for the article but i'm struggling to find it - it was the one with 4 parts on .tv wasn't it? all i can find is a one-pager from early 06...

Edit... Courtesy of FinnishRed: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/features/2007/may/FN11527070522-1105.htm

Quote
PAKO AYESTARAN: THE BIG INTERVIEW
Jimmy Rice in Athens 

 
He’s one of the masterminds of the Rafalution, yet he rarely gives interviews. But as the Reds head into their second Champions League final in three seasons, Pako Ayestaran invited liverpoolfc.tv for an end of season evaluation.

As well as looking ahead to Wednesday night, Rafa's right-hand man offered an honest assessment of Liverpool's Premiership season.
 
The Spaniard explained what he feels the club has to do to end its long wait for a title – and he revealed the one thing that really winds him up about the modern game.


 


Firstly Pako, how excited are you personally about the days ahead?
 
I am more proud than excited. I am proud of the players, of all the employees at Melwood and I am proud of Liverpool. Everyone has been important in making sure we're still in when 30 other teams have been knocked out.
 
Have you done anything differently to prepare for the final than for a normal game?
 
No, not really. The only difference is that Athens is a warm city. For this reason we went to Murcia last week. It's in south east Spain, so the conditions there were very similar to Athens. Then we came to Athens for three days. That has given us eight days to get used to the conditions.
 
What's the mood like in the camp? How confident is everyone going into the final?
 
Confidence is a word I don't like, because it has positive and negative effects. Confidence is not something you can buy in the supermarket. The better you prepare, the more confidence you will have. That is what we are working on now. The important thing is to see yourself as being ready for the challenge, not to be confident.
 
How would victory in Athens compare to the achievement in Istanbul?
 
I don't like to talk about victory when there is still so much hard work to be done. You are not ready until you have analysed the situation, the strengths and weaknesses of the other team. Victory is a long way off. It's out of our control at this very moment, so my main worry is what is happening today. I started this morning and I was not thinking about victory, all I was thinking about was hoping it wouldn't be a windy day, because it must be a clear day for us to do the tests with players. This is all I can do today. Sometimes people are too focused on the result, and you can lose sight of what is important, which is preparing yourself to win.
 
Rafa has taken a lot of plaudits for masterminding some great European victories, like the incredible result in Barcelona. What's his secret?
 
It's always the same thing. He analyses the strengths and the weaknesses of each team. Rafa is a very open-minded person and coach. He always asks his backroom staff what they think, and listens, but of course the final decision is always with him.
 
One of the main challenges tomorrow night will be stopping Kaka. Judging by his performance in the semi-final against Manchester United, is he the best player in the world right now?
 
It's very difficult to select just one player, but if you analyse the impact players have on their teams, then I think you have to look at Didier Drogba. I think Chelsea feel his absence more than any other team misses any other player.
 
Looking back on the season as a whole, Liverpool have once again been great in Europe, but things haven't gone to plan in the Premiership. What do you think is behind this?
 
They are very different. One is a knockout where you need to be at you top level for just 12 games to reach the final; the other is a competition in which you have to be at your top level for 10 months and 38 games. If you have a bad run during one or two months, you don't have the possibility of fighting for the Premiership. The second reason is the games we had at the beginning. You have to be a little bit luckier with the fixtures, I think. We played Chelsea, Bolton, Man Utd, Everton and Arsenal away from home during a stage when the team and new players were trying to mould together.
 
Both Liverpool and AC Milan have fallen short in their respective leagues. Do you think it's possible to do well in both competitions?
 
Yes, really it is possible. You need a really deep squad. We did it as well with Valencia, when we won the league and had a really good run in the Champions League – we were very unlucky to go out to Inter Milan. Yes, AC Milan and Liverpool are in the final, but it could easily have been a Chelsea versus Manchester United final, and they are doing well in the league. It is true that teams like Liverpool, without as deep a squad, can't fight for all the titles. You have to select your target. That's something we have done this year when our chance in the league was too far away.
 
So is it fair to say the club has concentrated mainly on the Champions League during the second half of the season?
 
Not concentrate, but we knew it was a more real possibility than the league.
 
 
Pako on winning the title

I think we have made the same mistakes as a team and as a club. I think still we are not ready to fight for the Premiership. You have to be realistic: if you want to be a winner, if you want to be first, you have to take all your decisions with this target in mind.

A lot was made of Rafa's rotation policy earlier in the season. Do you think rotation has played a part in the fact we are in Athens?
 
I think we selected targets and used our resources properly, and that's the reason we are where we are. I'm not just talking about the Champions League final – Liverpool have finished the season with a high level of performance. The rotation policy has helped us to arrive at this level.
 
Looking again at Rafa's rotation policy, how hard is it for you to motivate players when they're not playing week in, week out?
 
It's difficult with players who are not professional enough. If they are professional, they realise there are reasons they are not in the team. I try to get them focused on the reasons. They shouldn't use excuses. If someone is not in the squad, it's because there are things he has to improve. The way to motivate the players is to get them to look long-term and change the reasons they are not in the squad. They have to look at themselves.
 
What positives will you take from your third Premiership season, and what have you learned?
 
The positives are that in our direct confrontations with the other top four sides, we have been closer than last year. The only game we have been far away from winning was the match at The Emirates. We have won at home against Chelsea and Arsenal. The negatives, or the things we've learned? I think we have made the same mistakes as a team and as a club. I think still we are not ready to fight for the Premiership. You have to be realistic: if you want to be a winner, if you want to be first, you have to take all your decisions with this target in mind. Sometimes maybe we still are not close, as a squad and as a club as well. It's not a coincidence that Liverpool haven't won the league in 17 years.
 
What then do you think the club needs to be doing that it isn't already?
 
These are important questions. One thing is that our most expensive signing has been Djibril Cisse for £14 million. This year we haven't been able to compete with Manchester or Chelsea who can spend £20 or £30 million on a player. This doesn't mean we can't fight for the Premiership, but it's always more difficult. The only way we have to reduce the gap is to do everything better, to prepare the structure and hierarchy of the club to be more competitive. I am talking about the full structure of the club, the environment, the staff behind the players, everything. One of the things I don't like in football is when people say, 'We've done it this way for years'. My father had a Fiat but at this moment I have a BMW. You have to move on and you have to adapt to new ways.
 
So how far behind Chelsea and Manchester United do you think Liverpool are on the pitch?
 
In one game, we are really close; through the season, I think we are too far. We have lost around 60 points in three seasons. If you cheat yourself, you're not going in the right direction. We have to be fair to ourselves.
 
Do you think we might be on their level next season, or is it a longer process than that?
 
We can't say anything at all until we know what our starting point will be next season, and as well the starting points of Chelsea and Manchester United.
 
Were you surprised to see United overhaul Chelsea this season?
 
Not really. After three or four games, I said it could happen. There are two really important reasons for me. Firstly, they built a team over two or three years and then realised they were close. If you want to win the Premiership, you have to realise you are close and you are capable of winning. Then, when you are close, your self-confidence starts to build. Years ago a cyclist said to me, I want to win just one race. How was he going to win one race when he hadn't even been in the first 10 in any race?
 
Are you saying Liverpool aren't at that stage yet?
 
No, maybe we are not. Still we have finished too far from them to think we have a real possibility to win the Premiership. Manchester United didn't need to sign too many players this year. They bought Carrick, and if you look at the starting 11 they played against us this year and last, the only difference is Carrick and no van Nistelrooy. Eighty or 90 per cent of the key players were already in the team. All these things are the first reason for me why Manchester won the league. The second reason is they have used the rotation policy better than Chelsea. I remember three or four games when Manchester played with five, six or seven changes. Playing with Fletcher on the right instead of Ronaldo or with Brown at centre-back. Chelsea haven't done that.
 
United have won the league by outscoring teams. While Liverpool have once again been excellent at the back, is it the case that we need to score more goals?
 
One of our main problems is that, when you compare with the other top four teams, we haven't really scored too many goals. This is not the mistake just of the strikers. It's also for the midfielders, and also our defenders could sometimes have supported the attack better. We haven't been as aggressive going forward as we have in defending. United have also been really effective in wide areas. There are not many world-class wide players, and United have Giggs and Ronaldo. For me, Chelsea were more effective when they had Duff and Robben. With Liverpool, we have been without Harry Kewell all season. He has this kind of quality.
 
 
Pako on away form

Liverpool is the team that more than any other feels the difference when they play away. The support they feel when they play at home is so huge and important that when they play away, the difference is massive. When Chelsea play in Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea players don't really feel the support of the crowd, so the difference is not massive for them.

Alex Ferguson has stated that one of the reasons they won the league is because they got off to such a fantastic start. Liverpool didn't get out of the blocks as quickly, why do you think that was?
 
The fixtures we had at the beginning of the season were really tough, and we had them while our team was still coming together. Players needed to settle here, to learn how each other played, to get in the dressing room and join with the players already here. We didn't get our level until late November.
 
Another thing that's clear from this campaign is that Liverpool's home form has been excellent, yet points have been harder to come by on the road. What do you think is behind this?  

I remember a coach in Spain once said that Spanish girls in the 1970s and 1980s were brought up not to be on their own, but to always have someone with them. They were educated to be part of a family, not on their own. They were educated to be married and be with the children of her husband. I think something similar has happened with our team. Liverpool is the team that more than any other feels the difference when they play away. The support they feel when they play at home is so huge and important that when they play away, the difference is massive. When Chelsea play in Stamford Bridge, the Chelsea players don't really feel the support of the crowd, so the difference is not massive for them. One thing the players have to learn is to compete and have the self-confidence independent of the supporters. You need the right mental attitude when the conditions are not comfortable. It's a psychological attitude that's so important.
 
You've been in England three years now. Is the task of overhauling Manchester United and Chelsea harder than you first thought?  

Not really. You have to realise that Liverpool haven't won the league for 17 years. That said everything about how hard it is to win the Premiership. In the last 12 years, just three teams have won it. I knew it was going to be very difficult.
 
If you win the Premiership with Liverpool, how would that compare to overtaking Real Madrid and Barcelona with Valencia?
 
I think it will be more of an achievement. When we won the league with Valencia, we did it against two teams that were losing their level. Valencia had built the team the previous year and had already reached two Champions League finals. Maybe we didn't have a better starting 11 than Barcelona and Real Madrid, but we had a lot better squad and that was key. In England the situation is opposite. When we arrived here, Chelsea and Manchester United were improving their level year by year. For these reasons, it would be a massive achievement to win the Premiership.
 
Moving on to life off the pitch, how are you finding life in England?
 
I have settled in really well. One of the things which was difficult at first was the language. Day by day I'm improving, but I'm still further away than I'd like because, as crazy as it sounds, I sometimes don't feel like I'm living in England. I am at Melwood for so many hours, I don't have time to socialise. I'm always at my computer. I have two hours training with the players but it's always the same vocabulary. Another thing I had to adapt to is the different timing of the day, like the times of meals or going to bed. Now these are things I enjoy. In Spain, I'd never go to bed early or have dinner early, but it is enjoyable.
 
What do you make of Liverpool the city?
 
I enjoy the culture here; the music, theatres and cinemas. I live on the Wirral and that allows me to be in contact with nature, something I love, along with my family.
 
Do you get recognised when you go out?
 
Yes, but it's something I don't worry about. More important for me is the players and staff recognising my work.
 
Talk me through a typical day in the life of Pako?
 
That's easy. Normally I come to Melwood about eight o'clock, and so many times I don't set off home until seven o'clock. I am trying to leave earlier some days, so I can share my life with my family, take my wife for a meal, go for a walk or go to the theatre. I like to go to The Empire. Particularly in my first year, they missed me too much because I was too long here. When I'm at Melwood, it's no more than two or three hours on the pitch. The rest of the time I am planning training, analysing data from training sessions.
 
If you had to sum up your philosophy on coaching in one sentence, what would you say?
 
I can do it in just one word: professionalism. I think this word covers the most important things you do day by day.
 
Finally Pako, if there was one thing you could change about football, what would it be?
 
The lack of professionalism.
 
At Liverpool or in general?
 
In general. There are too many examples. One thing is, I can't understand when people say, 'There's nothing new to be found in football, everything has been discovered, so there is no point in analysing things.' To take the right decisions, you need to analyse a lot; you need to control of lot of data. This takes a lot of hours. As well, something I hate is when the players don't realise they lead a privileged life. They have a big responsibility to the supporters. They have to work hard not just for themselves, but for the club and the supporters who follow them everywhere. Sometimes when people say they are doing everything they can, it is not true. You can always push yourself a little bit more.
 
Okay, thanks for your time Pako, and good luck in the final...
 
Thank-you. 

it refers to squad depth directly, but other than the comments on professionalism, the only other comments that point at RM's model are the 'aggression in attack'.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2008, 11:26:15 am by royhendo »

Offline hesbighesred

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This is far too interesting not to add a few more thoughts into the mix.

With regards to 'pressing' and 'forcing', is it possible that we have something of a middle ground, and degrees of it that vary according to the players? Because I'd say we perfrom it almost like it works effectively on football manager, like each player almost has a 'zone' in which they're allowed to press. Let me try and break it down.

Torres presses all along the back 4. Our wingers press the full back, possibly one centre back, and track the winger back. One of Mash/Alonso/Lucas presses all around the midfield, one keeps his position much more.  The Gerrard role seems to have less responsibility, perhaps doubling up when others are pressing, but he tends to hold his position, and indeed Rafa has indicated one thing Gerrard needed to improve on here was almost learning how to stay still. This would make sense to me as this role is the pivot for the attack.

Also, remember what the article said about 'pressing' making the team vulnerable to a counter if it fails? Now, while there is no doubt whatsoever that we commit numerous 'tactical' fouls per game, I think it's also fair to say that we rarely get outnumbered or pulled out of position while in open play...from our own set pieces, yes, that's one of our problems, but not from open play.

This leads me to conclude that we only 'double up' when zones overlap. For example, Kuyt and Torres are often seen harrying the full back or a centre back together. This also allows the players behind to get tight on their opposite number. Gerrard may not press much himself, but will help double up in midfield and further upfield. The right back will help out Kuyt once play reaches a certain point, or tuck in and help out the centre back, if that makes sense.

I would say this is also why Torres is often taken off for that last 10 minutes, and why the 'wingers' and full backs are the most rotated. These are the players who have the most pitch to cover, and are in almost perpetual motion. The need for squad depth is also absolutely vital to this. A certain level of pressing must be maintained, and while you can often see us easing off and simply plying deep and compact and countering against poorer teams when we have a decent lead, against top teams we press constantly.

Just briefly on Momo and Dirk. I think Rafa loves these kind of players because they are very rare in being able to maintain that pressing game almost 100% of the time, without losing their basic level of performance. Unfortunately for Momo, his basic level was never consistent enough in terms of keeping the ball, and giving the ball away is a big crime in our set up. Dirk, on the other hand, may not be the most spectacular, but he is by and large pretty neat and tidy, and rarely gives the ball away needlessly. He is also capable of tracking his winger, pressing the full back, and one of the centre backs all game long every game. His stamina is quite extraordinary in this respect, and hugely underappreciated in my opinion.

Hence the wide players get rotated the most, Gerrard can be rotated the least, Torres misses the last 10 mintes (I'm no expert but I would guess that this phase also proves to be the most tiring for players, and is also, along with the wide players, one where the player must almost always be able to close down). I think this also varies a little with the quality of the opposition, we can play some players 3 times a week for normal opponents, but 3 tough games and we need to give them a rest.

One that really summed this up for me was the three Arsenal games last year. Our midfield had a whole game off, Arsenal's played all three games.

Now, while they started the Anfield leg apparently full of energy, it became obvious after our first goal that Fab and Flam were running purely on adrenaline. They simply didn't have the energy to keep up with us after that. Their equaliser came from their one truly fresh player, expoiting our weakness on the break from set pieces (as did Man Utd for Brown's goal), but we could see in the last 20 minutes just how much more energy we had. We were able to recover from that equaliser, they were not able to recover from Gerrard's penalty. They simply didn't have the energy, as was shown by the 'ease' with Babel scored our fourth.

I'd also add that this freshness is one of the big reasons why a) we often score in the last 10 minutes and b) why Rafa often seems to hold back until the last 10-15 minutes.

I do feel sometimes he should gamble more, but on the other hand I can also see a strong argument for holding back until the opponent is at their most vulnerable. Kind of like middle distance runners who, by reigning in their natural instinct to go all out at the beginning, are able to seemingly sprint away in the last 100m or 200m, when in reality they are actually maintaining a steady pace throughout, wheras their opponents are starting out quick then slowing down.

I may be totally wrong of course, but that's what it generally looks like to me. Perhaps a reason for Barry over Alonso is also to share the pressing duties more evenly between the two 'holding' midfielders, which may also help preserve Mash and reduce the chances of him getting injured/the need for him to be rested before big games.
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It's always the same thing. He analyses the strengths and the weaknesses of each team. Rafa is a very open-minded person and coach. He always asks his backroom staff what they think, and listens, but of course the final decision is always with him.

That's interesting. So much for 'Rafa the autocrat'.
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Also, remember what the article said about 'pressing' making the team vulnerable to a counter if it fails? Now, while there is no doubt whatsoever that we commit numerous 'tactical' fouls per game, I think it's also fair to say that we rarely get outnumbered or pulled out of position while in open play...from our own set pieces, yes, that's one of our problems, but not from open play.

This leads me to conclude that we only 'double up' when zones overlap. For example, Kuyt and Torres are often seen harrying the full back or a centre back together. This also allows the players behind to get tight on their opposite number. Gerrard may not press much himself, but will help double up in midfield and further upfield. The right back will help out Kuyt once play reaches a certain point, or tuck in and help out the centre back, if that makes sense.

I would say this is also why Torres is often taken off for that last 10 minutes, and why the 'wingers' and full backs are the most rotated. These are the players who have the most pitch to cover, and are in almost perpetual motion. The need for squad depth is also absolutely vital to this. A certain level of pressing must be maintained, and while you can often see us easing off and simply plying deep and compact and countering against poorer teams when we have a decent lead, against top teams we press constantly.

I like this thought, this is why in the next few transfer windows (probably not this one right now), we should have two quality players for all of the "wide positions", so we can have freshness in subsitutes at the end of the match.
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I hate to see 'doubling up' myself (it's what schoolboy footballers do before they're coached). It's like two defenders attacking the same ball. If they mess up then the opposition is probably in. A lot of attackers - wide men particularly - like to face two defenders at once because they feel they can exploit their uncertainty. If you've got pace and balance it's actually quite easy to take on two men by going between them. Neither is likely to make a full-blooded challenge. Defenders need room to tackle properly.
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I like this thought, this is why in the next few transfer windows (probably not this one right now), we should have two quality players for all of the "wide positions", so we can have freshness in subsitutes at the end of the match.

This is also why we only go for certain types of wide players too. Did you read that interview with Quaresma, where he said he turned us down because we wanted him to be more 'aggressive'?

Now, no matter how good a player is going forward, bearing in mind how important pressing is, how much more strain it puts on the team to have to move back as a unit while pressing, and the vulnerability of the system when certain players are pulled out of position, imagine the effect, tactically, when one player is effectively not there at all while we are defending, especially a wide player or a striker? Note, he doesn't have to be as good as Kuyt...just willing to do the work, like Babel is, or even Kewell was while fit, or Benayoun.

Then add to that the psychological effect to the rest of the team if they are expected to put so much work in defensively, and they see that one player does not have this responsibility at all.
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Offline hesbighesred

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I hate to see 'doubling up' myself (it's what schoolboy footballers do before they're coached). It's like two defenders attacking the same ball. If they mess up then the opposition is probably in. A lot of attackers - wide men particularly - like to face two defenders at once because they feel they can exploit their uncertainty. If you've got pace and balance it's actually quite easy to take on two men by going between them. Neither is likely to make a full-blooded challenge. Defenders need room to tackle properly.

I see what you mean, I'm pretty much arguing that we don't really do that...it only happens when zones overlap. For example, Kuyt will often chase a winger to a certain point, at which point our full back will also close in, and most likely one of the midfielders will cover the opposition full back if he's still open. Gerrard/Torres may chase a player back to a certain point in midfield, at which point Mash will also come in for a tackle.

Does that make sense? Does that square with what you see us do when we play? I certainly don't think we 'double up' as a matter of course, like the way some teams will always have two players closing down a Ronaldo or a Torres, for example. I can't remember us ever doing that. One man marker yes, albeit very rarely, but doubling up as an intentional tactic? No.
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Offline azer

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fantastic post.
Dominating a game can be sumarised to the pass and move philosophy and players who want the ball and are comfortable on it.
From that i think we have only a few players that fall into that category: finnan, agger, alonso, gerrard, keane, torres, masch. I think when these players are on the ball you always feel safe and they are all capable of doing something with it.
After that, i think we are still a bit off.
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Offline minusone

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That has to be the best post anywhere on the net, by anyone, at any time in recorded history.. that doesn't include a pair of tits.

I appreciated every bit of that article and i agree with much of it. It's something that not everyone would be aware of, through ignorance, laziness or whatever, and if only a much larger audience could understand the issues covered in this articles (press people especially) we wouldn't be seeing half the shit flung at Rafa and our club as we did last season.

I always maintain that Rafa is the right man for the job, and this is largely the reason why.

Thanks for the great read, and i have sent it to as many red men as i know.
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Offline amoh

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Some of our best examples of pressing would be Arsenal 04-05 and Juve, that night against them we were unbelieveable up until about 60-70 minutes when understandably theplayers began to feel fucked.  Second half against Arsenal in the CL we were magnificent at keeping them in their own half, watch again how many time they resorted to a long ball tob Adebayor.

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It makes me think of players like Momo and Dirk Kuyt really, and of course Masch. I guess with limited 'quality' in closing down space (people who can close things down on their own like the three above), you really need to press in groups of 2 and 3, and that wears down the squad if it's not deep enough. Saying that, though, we've seen players who still play the majority of games regardless of how knackering things get, so I have a hard time squaring that with the need for such a deep squad.
In Pako Lloret's biography of Benitez there's a passage about the crushing machine of Valencia and the effect on the opposition  - I don't have the book on hand to quote from but it was something along the lines of squeezing the opposition into their own half for a period of 5 minutes and then easing off before applying the pressure again. Mentally it wears down the opponents and causes them to make unforced errors and make your own job easier in the process. There was a quote from one of the Spanish defenders saying that playing against the Valencia crushing machine was pure attrition, you'd want to give them the ball or let them score just so they'd leave you alone for a while.

There was also a good quote from Roberto Ayala in response to Claudio Ranieri when he instructed the team to "just defend". Ayala asked him how he wanted them to defend that under the previous manager (Benitez) they had a number ways of defending in any given situation.

Once again thanks for the excellent post that kick started the topic.

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One question though Royhendo - if inculcating the framework into the players from the earliest age possible is the best way to reach Level 3 football consistently, how do we integrate our decisions to loan out youth players to other teams into this outlook?  This means depriving them of the TTTB from Melwood for significant periods of their development as players in favor of other modes of playing football with other teams.  These modes are arguably of a lower standard if they're playing in the Conference or League 1, although a case could be made that it exposes them to more styles of play than staying in the Reserves.  They will need to have the right mental capacity to process the lessons they learn on loan without the guidance from Rafa and his staff, and that seems a big gamble to take if we're banking on these youth products to get us and keep us on Level 3.
If you assemble a squad of the best youth players at the underage level then they are not going to learn Level 1/2 football because chances are they are going to dominate their opponents at that level. By going on loan the players are moved out of their comfort zone and will put into practise the theory they have learned if they are going to progress to first team level.

There are quotes from the manager and players of Accrington Stanley about the big roles that Godwin Antwi and David Martin played in keeping the club in the football league in 2007 (What better place to practise a Level 1 backs to the wall scenario?). By his second game Godwin was organising the defensive line and really impressed the manager and fans with his attitude and willingness to take responsibility.

Compare that to the approach of Le Tallec when he was put in a similar position - Sunderland fighting relegation from the Premiership in the 2005–06 season. He bitched to the press that because the players at the club were so poor that he spent almost all of his time chasing down players rather than scoring or creating goals. He clearly wasn't prepared to put in the work and yet expected to have guaranteed first team football where ever he went. It would appear that the current crop of young players see the bigger picture.

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In Pako Lloret's biography of Benitez there's a passage about the crushing machine of Valencia and the effect on the opposition  - I don't have the book on hand to quote from but it was something along the lines of squeezing the opposition into their own half for a period of 5 minutes and then easing off before applying the pressure again. Mentally it wears down the opponents and causes them to make unforced errors and make your own job easier in the process. There was a quote from one of the Spanish defenders saying that playing against the Valencia crushing machine was pure attrition, you'd want to give them the ball or let them score just so they'd leave you alone for a while.

There was also a good quote from Roberto Ayala in response to Claudio Ranieri when he instructed the team to "just defend". Ayala asked him how he wanted them to defend that under the previous manager (Benitez) they had a number ways of defending in any given situation.

Once again thanks for the excellent post that kick started the topic.


that's a great section isn't it?

here's the first bit.

Quote
A story that decribes the crushing style of their play comes from the match at the Sanchez Pizjuan stadium when they won the Championship with two weeks to spare. Pable Alfaro, the nimble central defender who played for Sevilla, was overwhelmed by the intensity of their attacks.

"What a pain in the neck they are, let them score the goal and leave us alone once and for all!" he exclaimed.

am trying to find the bit on the pressing strategy

royhendo

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some more...

Quote
This, without doubt, was one of the most thought-provoking elements that could be seen in the Valencia team under his management: that of controlling the performance of the players and regulating the intensity of their play.

In some matches it was plain to see. The team would slow down or speed up its rate of play under instruction from the coach, but always in relation to the needs of the fixture list.

i remember reading the other bits you mentioned red_z - will try and dredge them out...

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see any level 3 hallmarks from our young lads today?

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I thought the play we saw when our big guns came off yesterday was very encouraging. I sat with rangers fans on the train home and they were asking who these kids were: ngog, spearing, Insua, nemeth... they played some nice intricate stuff

Offline Timbo's Goals

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I've read through it quickly Roy. Have to say it seems even from a quick read to be a really exceptional piece of analysis/assessment. It certainly couldn't be better timed with the way things seem to be evolving right now with the squad so strong and well balanced and the youth policy seemingly starting to show such promise - purrs at Nemeth  ;D. I'll have a fullread when I've more time and get back to you more fully.

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In Pako Lloret's biography of Benitez there's a passage about the crushing machine of Valencia and the effect on the opposition  - I don't have the book on hand to quote from but it was something along the lines of squeezing the opposition into their own half for a period of 5 minutes and then easing off before applying the pressure again. Mentally it wears down the opponents and causes them to make unforced errors and make your own job easier in the process. There was a quote from one of the Spanish defenders saying that playing against the Valencia crushing machine was pure attrition, you'd want to give them the ball or let them score just so they'd leave you alone for a while.

There was also a good quote from Roberto Ayala in response to Claudio Ranieri when he instructed the team to "just defend". Ayala asked him how he wanted them to defend that under the previous manager (Benitez) they had a number ways of defending in any given situation.

Once again thanks for the excellent post that kick started the topic.
If you assemble a squad of the best youth players at the underage level then they are not going to learn Level 1/2 football because chances are they are going to dominate their opponents at that level. By going on loan the players are moved out of their comfort zone and will put into practise the theory they have learned if they are going to progress to first team level.

There are quotes from the manager and players of Accrington Stanley about the big roles that Godwin Antwi and David Martin played in keeping the club in the football league in 2007 (What better place to practise a Level 1 backs to the wall scenario?). By his second game Godwin was organising the defensive line and really impressed the manager and fans with his attitude and willingness to take responsibility.

Compare that to the approach of Le Tallec when he was put in a similar position - Sunderland fighting relegation from the Premier League in the 2005–06 season. He bitched to the press that because the players at the club were so poor that he spent almost all of his time chasing down players rather than scoring or creating goals. He clearly wasn't prepared to put in the work and yet expected to have guaranteed first team football where ever he went. It would appear that the current crop of young players see the bigger picture.

Great posts there mate.  I wasn't into football yet when Rafa was at Valencia but I like how his team is described there - harrying and wearing down the opposition, breaking them psychologically into wanting to let Valencia score to relieve the pressure.  Would love us to grind teams down like that, especially the Mancs.  Slap a bit of the swagger out of them.

Didn't know that about Antwi, he seems quite underrated on RAWK.  So our youth/reserves teams learn how to play Level 3 football first, and go out on loan to learn how to do Level 1 and 2?  I'm trying to compare that to the way Arsenal operate, where the emphasis is very much on Level 3 football but without the versatility to switch back to Level 2 or 1.  Yet they also send their players out on loan, like Vela and Bendtner.  So their players do know how to play effective/backs-to-the-wall football, but it's Wenger's inflexibility that prevents them from doing so.
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Lolzies. More chance of a wank off the pope than beating United, I'm afraid. It is beyond Benitez, apart from when they were at their lowest ebb, when we knocked them out of the FA Cup. They certainly aren't anywhere near there now.