Topic: Brexit. the Con continues

[TheShanklyGates]

  Corbyn became relevant when you tried to re-write history trying to claim Starmers Labour are hard Brexiteers. am setting the record straight.
 Do you understand the conditions of being in the Single Market?
It means you have to agree and accept all EU rules and regulations. the hard left opposed this on principle, Corbyn argued we should be free to decide our own laws, that can only mean a hard Brexit as a soft brexit means accepting EU rules and regulations.

I understand the difference between a hard Brexit and a soft Brexit. a simple definition is we should be back in the single market which is basically a ready made deal you don't need to negotiate but there are other ways of achieving a soft Brexit, agree to as many EU rules and regulations as possible which will make trade between the UK and EU more reliable, cheaper and faster. your taking away the trade barriers,  that's impossible under the hard lefts policy on Brexit.

You're not setting the record straight at all. Hard Brexit meant leaving the single market and customs union, Starmer's Labour support staying out of the single market and customs union. Soft Brexit meant staying in the single market and customs union. Discussion is impossible when you keep changing the meaning of words.

I don't give a fuck what Corbyn's views are, and even if I did they're irrelevant because he isn't a Labour MP.

[oldfordie]

You're not setting the record straight at all. Hard Brexit meant leaving the single market and customs union, Starmer's Labour support staying out of the single market and customs union. Soft Brexit meant staying in the single market and customs union. Discussion is impossible when you keep changing the meaning of words.

I don't give a fuck what Corbyn's views are, and even if I did they're irrelevant because he isn't a Labour MP.

If you go back to 2016 till say 2019, a soft Brexit was a Norwegian deal,  being a member of the EEA, your in the single market but no representation at the EU, maybe a Swiss deal, views back then were any other deal was a hard  Brexit, we have accepted we are out the EU and no Norwegian ready made deal, we now have to negotiate our own deal,  you can only judge this by a sliding scale as all the ready made deals are off the table. we can agree to all EU rules and regulations and have no say or vote at the EU if we want; that's 100% a soft Brexit, so it's a matter of how soft or hard we want Brexit to be.
Starmer has made no secret of is intentions, he will  negotiate close alignment, that means he wants a Brexit far softer than we have now. theres no way anyone can claim Labour are hard Brexiteers.

[TheShanklyGates]

If you go back to 2016 till say 2019, a soft Brexit was a Norwegian deal,  being a member of the EEA, your in the single market but no representation at the EU, maybe a Swiss deal, views back then were any other deal was a hard  Brexit, we have accepted we are out the EU and no Norwegian ready made deal, we now have to negotiate our own deal,  you can only judge this by a sliding scale as all the ready made deals are off the table. we can agree to all EU rules and regulations and have no say or vote at the EU if we want; that's 100% a soft Brexit, so it's a matter of how soft or hard we want Brexit to be.
Starmer has made no secret of is intentions, he will  negotiate close alignment, that means he wants a Brexit far softer than we have now. theres no way anyone can claim Labour are hard Brexiteers.

For the last time -

Hard Brexit = out of the single market and customs union.
Labour policy = out of the single market and customs union.

I'll leave it at that because it's a basic fact that you seemingly won't accept so any further discussion is pointless.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

For the last time -

Hard Brexit = out of the single market and customs union.
Labour policy = out of the single market and customs union.

I'll leave it at that because it's a basic fact that you seemingly won't accept so any further discussion is pointless.

Labour want closer ties with the EU. In 2016 Corbyn was as much a part of the problem as all the other hard Brexiters.

The Tories would drum up all sorts of nutters that voted for Brexit by re-making it as a political hot potato.

In your view, would it be better for Labour to be 100% honest and possibly leave the Tories in power for the next 14 years? What would happen with the EU then? I can guarantee absolutely that under the Tories, the Brexit would get harder and include stuff like leaving more stuff and more rights being stuffed - Human Rights is the tip of the Iceberg. Just look at what shitheads like Truss and Frottage have been up to recently.

And there are still plenty of dickheads in this country that believe they were right who would turn against Labour again in a heartbeat if Labour pledged to tell everyone in the world that these dickheads are fucking stupid - which would be what they would be voting on should Labour announce a full reversal.

[oldfordie]

For the last time -

Hard Brexit = out of the single market and customs union.
Labour policy = out of the single market and customs union.

I'll leave it at that because it's a basic fact tha-Customs ut you seemingly won't accept so any further discussion is pointless.

You want to claim any deal Starmer makes with the EU shows he wants a hard Brexit as he refuses to argue we should join the single market and customs union. we all know he history 2016-2020 on what took us here, we all know why Labour cant argue to re-join the Single market right now. 


Brexit has evolved
You can't judge Brexit like that now. you can't class every EU deal all the same as it makes no difference, every deal is a hard Brexit as we are out of the SM+CU, that tells us nothing.

It's about being able to judge how soft or hard we want Brexit to be now until we re-join the SM+CU.
It's about being able to judge and show the difference between a ERG Hard Brexit relationship with the EU and Labours softer Brexit relationship.

Ive explained this as well, the more EU rules and regulations we agree too the more the trade barriers come down, more reliable, more cheaper. less red tape= more trade with the EU and growth. that's a softer type Brexit compared to the other end of the scale, the ERGs perfect Brexit, no EU regulations, red tape increases, costs go up for UK company's, less reliable,= less trade with the EU, Growth stagnates even further, that's a hard Brexit.



Starmers Labour never put us in this mess, he has to clean it all up.



.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

You...

Spoiler

want to claim any deal Starmer makes with the EU shows he wants a hard Brexit as he refuses to argue we should join the single market and customs union. we all know he history 2016-2020 on what took us here, we all know why Labour cant argue to re-join the Single market right now. 


Brexit has evolved
You can't judge Brexit like that now. you can't class every EU deal all the same as it makes no difference, every deal is a hard Brexit as we are out of the SM+CU, that tells us nothing.

It's about being able to judge how soft or hard we want Brexit to be now until we re-join the SM+CU.
It's about being able to judge and show the difference between a ERG Hard Brexit relationship with the EU and Labours softer Brexit relationship.

Ive explained this as well, the more EU rules and regulations we agree too the more the trade barriers come down, more reliable, more cheaper. less red tape= more trade with the EU and growth. that's a softer type Brexit compared to the other end of the scale, the ERGs perfect Brexit, no EU regulations, red tape increases, costs go up for UK company's, less reliable,= less trade with the EU, Growth stagnates even further, that's a hard Brexit.

[close]

Starmers Labour never put us in this mess, he has to clean it all up.



.

[oldfordie]

 Am begining to think 1 or 2 Reform d/head MPs might not be a bad thing when it comes to Brexit.
It's nearly 8 yrs since the referendum but any calls to rejoin the SM+CU are met with not respecting the result of the referendum.  how Labour have never respected the result of the referendum, that's the argument Reform and the ERG make to stop any calls to rejoin the SM+CU, it's not about them proving Brexit is good thing it's always about respecting democracy and the result of the referendum.
It's actually boll... as well. Brexit wasn't defined when we voted to leave the EU back in 2016. nothing on the ballot slip said anything other than leaving the EU.
The definition of Brexit accepted now came at least 4 months after the referendum when Theresa May laid down those disastrous red lines, every chance of a softer Brexit was gone when Labour were forced to change their stance and support Mays red lines. I still believe those Red lines came from the ERG, they forced May to accept them to hold the Tory party together, May and Corbyn didn't understand the implications of those red lines, Johnson never understood them 3 yrs later either, reports say he said we are f... when they were explained to him.
Those red lines made a good deal that limited the damage of Brexit impossible

So that's the problem Labour have, they can't argue to re-join the SM +CU right now as the not respecting democracy attacks will come flying in from Reform and the ERG nutters. it won't be about whether Brexit is a success it will be about respecting democracy.

Ive heard Frottage say we might as well be back in the EU as we are still following EU rules and regulations, that's brilliant. exactly what's needed to get Brexit re-join argument acceptable without the democracy attacks kicking off. let the Brexit nutters say we might as well be back in the EU.
Starmer will negotiate closer alignment, I hope a few brexit nutters shout we might as well be back in the EU, we need another referendum. I expect Frottage to say this as that will make him relevant again. a few Reform MPs calling for it in Parliament will be great,  it will be a different ball game then.
Reform wont be able to say Labour want another referendum shows they don't respect democracy as they will have called for a referendum themselves, it will be about voting on whether we should re-join or go for the hard Brexit, there will be some nutters who will support Reforms Brexit but the vote to re-join will be overwhelming. maybe make it a election issue rather than a referendum at the following election if we are confident.

[Robinred]

Am begining to think 1 or 2 Reform d/head MPs might not be a bad thing when it comes to Brexit.
It's nearly 8 yrs since the referendum but any calls to rejoin the SM+CU are met with not respecting the result of the referendum.  how Labour have never respected the result of the referendum, that's the argument Reform and the ERG make to stop any calls to rejoin the SM+CU, it's not about them proving Brexit is good thing it's always about respecting democracy and the result of the referendum.
It's actually boll... as well. Brexit wasn't defined when we voted to leave the EU back in 2016. nothing on the ballot slip said anything other than leaving the EU.
The definition of Brexit accepted now came at least 4 months after the referendum when Theresa May laid down those disastrous red lines, every chance of a softer Brexit was gone when Labour were forced to change their stance and support Mays red lines. I still believe those Red lines came from the ERG, they forced May to accept them to hold the Tory party together, May and Corbyn didn't understand the implications of those red lines, Johnson never understood them 3 yrs later either, reports say he said we are f... when they were explained to him.
Those red lines made a good deal that limited the damage of Brexit impossible

So that's the problem Labour have, they can't argue to re-join the SM +CU right now as the not respecting democracy attacks will come flying in from Reform and the ERG nutters. it won't be about whether Brexit is a success it will be about respecting democracy.

Ive heard Frottage say we might as well be back in the EU as we are still following EU rules and regulations, that's brilliant. exactly what's needed to get Brexit re-join argument acceptable without the democracy attacks kicking off. let the Brexit nutters say we might as well be back in the EU.
Starmer will negotiate closer alignment, I hope a few brexit nutters shout we might as well be back in the EU, we need another referendum. I expect Frottage to say this as that will make him relevant again. a few Reform MPs calling for it in Parliament will be great,  it will be a different ball game then.
Reform wont be able to say Labour want another referendum shows they don't respect democracy as they will have called for a referendum themselves, it will be about voting on whether we should re-join or go for the hard Brexit, there will be some nutters who will support Reforms Brexit but the vote to re-join will be overwhelming. maybe make it a election issue rather than a referendum at the following election if we are confident.

That’s how I see it too OF. It appears however, that those folk who believe Starmer and Reeves have ditched their Remain credentials cannot countenance the possibility that they’re ’keeping their tinder dry’ - for blatantly obvious reasons.

[oldfordie]

That’s how I see it too OF. It appears however, that those folk who believe Starmer and Reeves have ditched their Remain credentials cannot countenance the possibility that they’re ’keeping their tinder dry’ - for blatantly obvious reasons.

Yep. I wouldn't mind but the Torys ran over the last leadership and forced them to change their stance on Brexit, they forced them to agree with Mays definition of Brexit which was we have to leave the SM+CU to achieve Brexit. Labour leadership was arguing in support of a SM Norwegian deal only weeks before, they put is in this position in the first place and it's caused all the problems. it's caused all the anger over not respecting the result of the referendum.
If they are going to argue we must respect the result of the referendum then we have to define what people actually voted for when they voted in the referendum. not what May and the Torys definition was months after the referendum.
The Norwegian deal was a big part of the argument on the day of the referendum, that was thrown out the window once Mays red lines were accepted as what needs to happen to respect the result of the referendum months after the referndum.
 
It still pisses me off watching that video of Frottage laughing at Ann Soubry straight after the referendum telling her he doesn't want a Norwegian deal, it shocked her for obvious reasons, Frottage had been praising the Norwegian deal as a good example of a successful Brexit, all we heard for years was, Wouldn't it be bad to be like Norway. ohh no it wouldn't, Norway are out of the EU, they are successful. the EEA are a rebel group of countries who refuse to be in the EU, they have a vote at the big table which was a deliberate attempt to mislead ignorant voters.
Frottage was laughing because he had got what he wanted, he had conned millions to vote for something he never intended to support. Frottage is no different from Trump. he doesn't respect his supporters, he thinks they are d/heads. anyone who looks you in the face and tells you lies that insult your intelligence must think you are a d/head.
All this has to be put on the back burner for now, get a majority Labour government in power first, we haven't got a prayer of turning this around without this happening first.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Absolute fucking scum. How these fuckers can even walk about is incredible. They have fucked this country.


Surely young people can see how much these c*nts are fucking them over. This should be the end of them as a party.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68848046


Tory Nazi Scum reject EU free movement for young people offer

The UK has rejected a EU offer that would make it easier for people aged between 18 and 30 to study and work abroad in the wake of Brexit.

The European Commission had said the deal would be a limited arrangement, not a restoration of free movement.

But No 10 has rejected the offer, stating "free movement within the EU was ended".

The UK already runs schemes with some non-EU countries to allow people to come to the UK for up to two years.

It says it is open to extending that to individual EU member countries, rather than throughout the EU.

"We are not introducing an EU-wide youth mobility scheme - free movement within the EU was ended and there are no plans to introduce it," a government spokesperson said on Friday evening.

Downing Street said it prefers country-by-country deals to an agreement that would apply across all 27 member states.

And Labour has said it has "no plans for a youth mobility scheme" if it wins the general election later this year.

A party spokesperson said it had already pledged "no return to the single market, customs union or free movement" if it takes office.

It added it wanted to improve the UK's relationship with the EU by agreeing new arrangements for recognising work qualifications, trading food and agricultural products, and touring performers.

The EU's free movement rules were a key part of the 2016 Brexit referendum, with the Leave campaign pledging to exit them to give the UK greater control over immigration.

The proposed EU scheme would not exactly replicate the regime, as the freedoms would be time limited and UK participants would only be able to stay in the EU country that accepted them.

But it would significantly reduce immigration controls on young people moving between the UK and EU, with the commission suggesting no quotas on overall numbers.

In a policy document, the European Commission said it was stepping in after the UK approached several unnamed EU countries last year to discuss individual deals.

It said this risked "differential treatment" of EU citizens, and instead there should be a bloc-wide deal to ensure they are "treated equally".

Instead, the commission wants to negotiate a new international agreement, tagged on to the post-Brexit trade deal with the UK, which came into force in 2021.

It would be the first such mobility deal the bloc has struck with any country outside the European Economic Area (EEA), except Switzerland.

Fee cut urged

Any decision to open negotiations with the UK would ultimately be a decision for EU governments, which would also have to agree on the terms to be negotiated. A date for them to discuss the proposal is yet to be set.

The UK already has a youth mobility scheme visa allowing young people from 10 countries including Australia, New Zealand, and Canada to study or work in the UK for up to two years. However, it is not open to EU applicants.

The European Commission is proposing an EU-UK deal that would go further, lasting up to four years with no restrictions on time spent working, studying, training or volunteering.

It also says EU applicants should not have to pay the annual UK charge towards the NHS, which ranges from £776 for students and under-18s to £1,035 for workers.

And EU students should pay the same tuition fees as UK students, rather than the higher fees they have had to pay since Brexit, and have rights to reunite with family members, under the proposals.

'Valuable route'

In a statement, the Home Office said its existing youth mobility programmes had been "successful" and it remained "open to agreeing them with our international partners, including EU member states".

"Our agreements provide a valuable route for cultural exchanges providing partner countries are also willing to offer the same opportunities for young British people," the department added.

Levels of immigration from the EU to the UK have declined since freedom of movement rules ended in 2021, requiring EU citizens to get a visa to live the UK, study, or get a job.

The deal proposed by the commission is likely to have an impact on official immigration figures, with immigrants living in the UK for longer than a year showing up in the official statistics.

The UK turned down an offer to continue participating in the EU's Erasmus student exchange scheme after Brexit, and has put in place a replacement, called the Turing Scheme.

[killer-heels]

Been turned down by both parties. Nobody is touching that with a barge pole.

[Red-Soldier]

Been turned down by both parties. Nobody is touching that with a barge pole.

You can just see the headlines, if one of them agreed to it.

[Kenny's Jacket]

You can just see the headlines, if one of them agreed to it.

Agree its tricky but do they not even try, especially given their lead

[redbyrdz]

Can't have freedom of movement for the kids, they might like it.

Also can't have any clever kids coming to the UK, they'd show up the gammons.

[thejbs]

Surely young people can see how much these c*nts are fucking them over. This should be the end of them as a party.

I doubt the majority have any interest in working or living in mainland Europe, though. And a good portion of them will have been indoctrinated against foreigners and the EU.

[LuverlyRita]

Been turned down by both parties. Nobody is touching that with a barge pole.

This is so depressing. Our democracy is being paralysed by extremist ideologies. Brexit never gets discussed, the myriad of problems are ignored, any solutions to said problems proprosed by The EU are dismissed without debate and Frottage is still allowed to spout his poison via mainstream media