Author Topic: Emile Heskey  (Read 74475 times)

Offline Aidan

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #200 on: July 1, 2003, 02:14:34 pm »
Aidan: it's all about opinons isn't it... ;D

You say: "He has shown flashes of all of the above, but I don't think you can argue he has done it anywhere near consistently enough. He is part of Liverpool's first choice strike force - and in my opinion, he hasn't proved himself worthy of that over the past 5 years."

So we did in fact pay 11 mil for Emile Heskey.

I would suggest to you that he has been value for the money. Can you put a price on a treble? On qualfying for the Champions League? On coming second in the League and qualifying for the CL again?  Another Cup this year? And that's monetary. I'm not even talking all the joy  for supporters those Cup runs and going to Cardiff, ect had..

But of course, Heskey doesn't score enough and Liverpool had a poor year last season, so that equates to Heskey being not worth his weight anymore... ???

 ;D ;D ;D

I can see merit in your argument - I've put the same points to people who've criticised him in the past. I'm just tired of putting forward these arguments only to see Emile not put, to my eyes, anything to his game. He just doesn't have the single mindedness or will to be the best, he seems happy to trundle along as he is.

Its time to face facts, if Liverpool Football Club are to progress, we need to improve in certain areas. I would think those areas are primarily: a right back who can bring the ball forward, which we've already addressed to some extent with the Finnan signing; creativity in midfield, which we're in the midst of addressing one way or another; and a top class striker to partner Owen - which, on the basis of the last 5 years, I don't think is Emile Heskey.

It's nothing to do with him not being worth it any more,  it's that he hasn't developed in to what he should be at this stage. He's been given every opportunity, he's been a first choice at club and country up until recently, he's been granted unbelievable patience by Liverpool fans, and yet I would say he is has not progressed, but regressed, in the last 2 years. People say he's a confidence player, well my patience is running out for him to feel confident. No one should get that liberty for the amount of time he's been given. We're still seeing the same hangdog expressions, still seeing him give up on a ball because he thinks he's been fouled. I honestly don't think he's got what it takes to better himself.

That's just my opinion. I will give him every support for as long as he plays for the club, but its my belief that if he doesn't do it next season, he's got to make way for someone else. LFC cannot afford, no more than we could for Messrs Collymore, Ince, Ziege et al, to wait around for Emile to be in the right frame of mind to want to play.

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #201 on: July 1, 2003, 02:25:37 pm »
It's nothing to do with him not being worth it any more,  it's that he hasn't developed in to what he should be at this stage. He's been given every opportunity, he's been a first choice at club and country up until recently, he's been granted unbelievable patience by Liverpool fans, and yet I would say he is has not progressed, but regressed, in the last 2 years. People say he's a confidence player, well my patience is running out for him to feel confident. No one should get that liberty for the amount of time he's been given. We're still seeing the same hangdog expressions, still seeing him give up on a ball because he thinks he's been fouled. I honestly don't think he's got what it takes to better himself.

I'm generally of the same mind as 4pool on the Heskey issue but I find it very hard to disagree with Aiden's above quote.

I don't think now is the time to sell Emile because his stock has never been lower - if the market was more buoyant and Emile not quite the national figure of ridicule that he has regrettably become I think he might well be on his way.  As it is it makes little sense to sell him as we would not get his worth and he offers something that none of our other strikers can (esp if Mellor is off on loan).

I hope that he can see this, gets a good rest this summer and comes back all guns blazing.  He has the armoury to prove his critics wrong, and I really hope he rams their words down their throats.  But I can feel myself beginning to identify with the sentiments in Aidens post...
Well, I don't know what it is, but there's definitely something going on upstairs

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #202 on: July 1, 2003, 07:31:26 pm »
I can see merit in your argument - I've put the same points to people who've criticised him in the past. I'm just tired of putting forward these arguments only to see Emile not put, to my eyes, anything to his game. He just doesn't have the single mindedness or will to be the best, he seems happy to trundle along as he is.

Its time to face facts, if Liverpool Football Club are to progress, we need to improve in certain areas. I would think those areas are primarily: a right back who can bring the ball forward, which we've already addressed to some extent with the Finnan signing; creativity in midfield, which we're in the midst of addressing one way or another; and a top class striker to partner Owen - which, on the basis of the last 5 years, I don't think is Emile Heskey.

It's nothing to do with him not being worth it any more,  it's that he hasn't developed in to what he should be at this stage. He's been given every opportunity, he's been a first choice at club and country up until recently, he's been granted unbelievable patience by Liverpool fans, and yet I would say he is has not progressed, but regressed, in the last 2 years. People say he's a confidence player, well my patience is running out for him to feel confident. No one should get that liberty for the amount of time he's been given. We're still seeing the same hangdog expressions, still seeing him give up on a ball because he thinks he's been fouled. I honestly don't think he's got what it takes to better himself.

That's just my opinion. I will give him every support for as long as he plays for the club, but its my belief that if he doesn't do it next season, he's got to make way for someone else. LFC cannot afford, no more than we could for Messrs Collymore, Ince, Ziege et al, to wait around for Emile to be in the right frame of mind to want to play.

Aidan, at least you and I agree that all players should get our support. I certainly want both Baros and Heskey to give their all and help LFC to succeed.

I also think that your line:
"It's nothing to do with him not being worth it any more,  it's that he hasn't developed in to what he should be at this stage."

Is probably the #1 opinion of Heskey that is used.
But I wonder at what point is it that supporters "expectations" is what a player should be?
Heskey is Heskey. Since he played for the Foxes and came to Liverpool he's done the same thing of providing some goals and helping the team to win.

If supporters 'think' that Heskey is supposed to score 20,25,or 30 goals..why is that Heskey's fault? Because we want it? And if we don't get it, then that means that Heskey is a failure?

Heskey is consisitent. That may be boring to many but I do remember when Super Kev Phillips was seen as someone who LFC should have went after as he was better than Fowler. Many had Kev valued at pushing 20 mil and Fowler barely worth 10. Houllier waited one more year before getting 11 mil for Robbie. How much is Super Kev worth now? Where are all his backers from the internet who were banging on and on what a great strike partner Kev would be for Owen?

Does anyone but me remember those days? ( of course I would, Robbie is my fav)..... ;D

I think Heskey is obviously undervalued for his contribution to the side. The fact that this is an ongoing battle of defending Heskey against the outcry of public opinion is something if we Reds don't do won't get done.

It's never been about Baros v Heskey. Nor should it ever be. They are both Reds. Something the Baros crowd needs to learn a lot more than the Heskey crowd does....
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Offline Tarpaulin

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #203 on: July 1, 2003, 08:11:14 pm »
while he pulls on the red shirt, he gets 100% support from me.

Offline IrishRed

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #204 on: July 1, 2003, 09:48:37 pm »
only time will tell......
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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #205 on: July 1, 2003, 10:44:27 pm »
Roper,

I don't think anyone with half a brain would disagree with that. Giving a player support, cheering their names, singing their songs and urging the team on is our job as Liverpool fans - and for me an enjoyable job it is too.
He's hardly going to play better if the fans all get on his back.
Balotelli, Falcao, Cavani...

I'll be shocked if it's anyone other Etoo. Etoo or no-one. Simples.

In fact, I'll do you all a favor and ban myself from the January transfer window forum if we get anyone other than Etoo.

Offline mercury

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #206 on: July 2, 2003, 05:40:54 am »
I am with Aidan on this and agree with his points.

I have hoped that Heskey would be a late developer and would gradually find his forte.  No one have had more joy than I when saw him charge forward and take on the opposition (except when he's one-on-one, my heart would thump with prayers for a good shot from him).   This is what I want him to do.  It is a crime for him to underuse his pure advantage as a footballer.  There would be more patience if he has shown some signs - if not trend taking into consideration his "injuries", the world cup, etc. etc. - of improvement.  Unfortunately, not only it is not the case, he actually has regressed.  :(

I am not entirely convinced that Heskey's problem is down to being played out of position or that this being a big contrbutory factor.  The manager might have tried him or have him helped out in the midfield, but this is not consistently so.  For the best part of the past two years, he was up front with Owen.

4pool, it is not a Baros vs Heskey thing either.  I'm of the opinion that Baros is not quite ready yet.   Even if Heskey has been more effective than Baros - this itself is a contentious point - the comparison is irrelevant to the fact  that both of them are not really ideal first teamers at this point in time.    It would be an improvement to us if a new, more effective partner be found for Owen.  I do not know enough about Cisse to judge but I have raised Viduka as an option who has the benefit of EPL experience of the two.

It is not a matter of being disloyal to the player or the Club.  I simply judge him not being good enough - a bit like James perhaps.  

I would be very very happy if I am proven wrong by Heskey.  However, as the matter stands now, I feel pessimistic about his future with us performance-wise.   :(

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #207 on: July 2, 2003, 12:26:46 pm »
Mercury..fair do's..

But you seem to think Liverpool will go out and get another striker. So if neither Baros or Heskey qualifies as Owens partner, what do you suggest if another striker doesn't come in?

And that can be the problem with some supporters always looking outside the team as opposed to seeing what will make the team work best with what you have.  
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Offline Millsee

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #208 on: July 2, 2003, 01:25:14 pm »
Latest from the official site:

Quote
Milan Baros will still be a Liverpool player next season, according to the player's agent.

There had been speculation that Baros could be on his way out of Anfield after several top European clubs were linked with a swoop for the Liverpool striker, but his agent Pavel Paska has insisted the Czech striker is staying on Merseyside.

Paska said: "I've talked to Liverpool manager Gerard Houllier and his stance is very clear. Milan is going nowhere.

"Houllier is counting on a Michael Owen-Milan Baros attack next season."


Owen-Baros attack? Read into that what you will.....

Offline Jason_King

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #209 on: July 2, 2003, 02:34:16 pm »
Sorry but we cant go on about Emile's contribution- it should be in goals, whether that be 30  season or 20. He plays up front FFS, lets not go on about his work ethic and tackling back(respect him for that and he doesnt just sit around up front) but I want someone tackling back and working hard I would play a defensive midfielder.

Being a confidence player is all well and good, but playing for the reds and being 1st chocie for England(more or less) doesnt give you confidence........? :-[
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Offline Jason_King

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #210 on: July 2, 2003, 04:40:17 pm »
I think if quality like Kluivert becomes available for such a price you have to be interested.

The squad we have has shown its not good enough to win the prem we need better class of players. Regardless of PK's indescretions, on a pitch he is up there in the word class bracket and we should be interested in him.

And how many players has the Granuiad linked us with ?????

We got a 60m transfer kitty now??
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #211 on: July 2, 2003, 04:52:08 pm »
Everyone knows GH wants Cisse at Liverpool, we've also been linked to Eto and Kluivert(a player I believe would form the best partnership with Owen).

So what would happen if Liverpool did bring in another striker????? Surely one would have to go, and if its not Heskey than who???Baros :o

If we regard Diouf a RM player, we "only" have 4 strikers and GH wants 5.

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Online 4pool

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #212 on: July 2, 2003, 06:08:44 pm »
Nah we shouldn't go on about Heskey's contribution to the team. Time to stop all this nonsense about contributions.

It's all about goals.... End of...... Full stop.

It's just an absolute crying shame that somehow in spite of Heskey not scoring 20 goals Liverpool F.C. went out and won a Treble. How in the world did they do that, with a farce of a striker up front, must be beyond comprehension. Forget contributions, it's about scoring goals.

Then...then...to top that off the very next season,
HE SCORES LESS. I mean ffs... come on we have a striker an he scores less and to top that off Liverpool almost won the League. Came second with a total worthy of winning the League most of the time, yet Arsenal never lost an away match which set a Premiership record.. Now how in the world did that happen?  I mean it just can't be so. Scores less and the side almost wins the League.

Yes, Liverpool F.C. can't live with success like that. it's doesn't work on Championship manager and by God it won't work in real life either..It's not about contributions and winning. It's about GOALS.

Then the next season we finally get a striker that can score goals, gets everyone excited, runs at defenders, plays Internationally for his Country, a real bonafide talent....and he scores more goals than the managers favorite...and we have the worst season in fifty years. Come 5th and miss out on the Champions League..when he starts the last two crunch matches, but he does score a GOALS. And so what if he started more League matches where Liverpool lost. He does score goals.....

Nope, by God it's not about contributions..it's about Goals.  ;) ;D ;D :wave
« Last Edit: July 2, 2003, 06:13:48 pm by 4pool »
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Offline oojason

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #213 on: July 2, 2003, 06:14:30 pm »
^ we also have Le Tellac and Pongolle - Smicer can play up front too.
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Offline smicer07

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #214 on: July 2, 2003, 06:24:17 pm »
Yeah but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't expect Le Tallec and Pongolle to be world beaters in the first team straight away, they need a good few seasons at least.

Offline KOTP

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #215 on: July 2, 2003, 06:40:42 pm »
well with ciise now probably not coming till next season it seems as if we are gonna be stuck with emile for another season.

hopefully this season he will be mainly sitting on the bench and baros will finally get a good long run in the team with owen to prove what a class player he is.

Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #216 on: July 2, 2003, 06:53:17 pm »
Thinking that the reason why we finished 5th and completely failed in the league is the "alleged" drop of Heskey (When did that happen?) and the credit given to Baros (When did that happen?) is more than a bit daft.

We lost the season in the winter, not in the last two games of the season.
« Last Edit: July 2, 2003, 06:56:20 pm by Zach17 »

Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #217 on: July 2, 2003, 06:59:19 pm »

Being a confidence player is all well and good, but playing for the reds and being 1st chocie for England(more or less) doesnt give you confidence........? :-[

And apparently getting 40,000 pounds a week doesn't make you confident either!

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #218 on: July 2, 2003, 07:02:56 pm »
I'd be confident if i got paid 1 grand a week.
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Offline Andy

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Re:Emile Heskey
« Reply #219 on: July 2, 2003, 10:24:35 pm »
good to see you're still open-minded on the subject!  ;)

Offline Millsee

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #220 on: July 2, 2003, 10:38:47 pm »
Nah we shouldn't go on about Heskey's contribution to the team. Time to stop all this nonsense about contributions.

It's all about goals.... End of...... Full stop.

Why is that? Because the facts are getting in the way of your populist opinions?

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #221 on: July 2, 2003, 11:14:19 pm »
Thinking that the reason why we finished 5th and completely failed in the league is the "alleged" drop of Heskey (When did that happen?) and the credit given to Baros (When did that happen?) is more than a bit daft.

We lost the season in the winter, not in the last two games of the season.

Zach..you must be a johnny come lately to this discussion... Liverpool lost five League matches from January to May. Which striker started every one of them?

Ohhh. but it's not the strikers fault. Ok..if you believe that, then don't blame Heskey for losing either..
Can't have it both ways.. ;)
« Last Edit: July 2, 2003, 11:17:38 pm by 4pool »
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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #222 on: July 2, 2003, 11:15:20 pm »
I'd be confident if i got paid 1 grand a week.

Only if they tossed in free ale as well... ;D :wave
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Offline mercury

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #223 on: July 3, 2003, 06:48:25 am »
Mercury..fair do's..

But you seem to think Liverpool will go out and get another striker. So if neither Baros or Heskey qualifies as Owens partner, what do you suggest if another striker doesn't come in?

And that can be the problem with some supporters always looking outside the team as opposed to seeing what will make the team work best with what you have

4pool, I deliberately did not address these questions in my last post cos I want to make my position very clear:  that both Baros and Heskey are not very ideal for us at the moment.

Note I use the word ideal, which means I do not consider them rubbish.  Far from it.  They are contributing but only not quite enough at the present point and my preference is to find or have someone step up.

However, consider all areas of need, midfield and full back positions are definitely the priority.   So if financial constraints mean that the striker position could not be addressed immediately, I'd be mildly disappointed but not upset.

Back to your no 1 question, I would place Baros above Heskey at the moment for our 2nd striker spot in a conventional 4-4-2,  if only that there is a better chance for Baros to improve to the level we need.   Baros is potentially uphill.  Heskey is potentially a continuation of downhill and having giving him 2 years I'm doubtful of his ability to revert the situation.   I do not see Mellor enough to judge but  some opportunities for him would be nice.    There are also Diouf and Smicer.  Both are not out and out striker and think they are not quite suited to play as a second striker in the conventional 4-4-2.  In any case Smicer has been too inconsistent to date to  warrant a regular place and to me is more suitable to be our super sub.

Ultimately, the decision on the Owen's partner would have to take into consideration and reflect the desired formation and tactics (which I really do not knwo enough and that's why threads such as on 4-2-3-1 or Graham yo-yo back 4-diagram are so interesting  :D), man-management approach, etc.  These are just some two pence worth of thoughts from someone who cannot kick a ball.  ;)  

Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #224 on: July 3, 2003, 09:35:28 am »
What makes the difference between Emile Heskey of 2001 and Emile Heskey of 2003? The answer is Michael Owen of 2001 and Michael Owen of 2003.

Back in the treble season Owen was a striker, but he was everything else. He dragged defenders, he drifted wide, he took men on... He was an awesome display of speed and skill.
That was Emile Heskey's best partner. He got the service, he interacted, he did all the things he knew and learned from youth and he scored goals. That was a good partnership because each striker did more to help his partner and shared the burden of deeper roles.

However, Michael Owen has changed since then. You don't see him leading attacks, burning grass like he once did. You only get flashes of it. His all around abilities haven't developed, and (the fear of) injuries paid their toll.
That hurt Emile Heskey, because now they are no longer two strikers interacting, it's now the big guy playing as a "defensive striker" ::) and trying to feed the little guy who is now more often isolated near the box trying to latch into a through ball instead of trying to take the game in his hands and make some of the plays.

Since Michael Owen changed the way he plays and has abandoned the deeper aspects of being a forward, turning into a "fox in the box" type of player, Emile Heskey has also changed his role, from a balanced striker capable of supplying AND finishing, into a suspect "burden slave" who is a non-threat, a non-striker and a non-factor in the game.

I don't know what has caused this balanced partnership to turn into a form of dependance, but it has damaged our attacking capabilites. That partnership isn't healthy anymore to any striker. It freezes the development of Owen's all around abilities and hurts Heskey's footballing abilities (If he has any left). They are not the same players anymore, it's either Owen OR Heskey for me at the moment.

So what do we do? Try to turn them back? Tell Owen to drop deep more and lead the attack, We've talked about this before and most of you have said we can't tell our 'star' what to do.

Well the other option is give Owen a partner who isn't exactly a striker, but specializes in providing. A player who is comfortable playing behind the front man and capable of creating threats near the box using his brains rather than his 'raw power'.

I think that it's time we give Jari Litmanen Vladimir Smicer a RUN (That means more than two games in a row ffs!) in the position he made his name in.

That's the only way that he can become consistent, by giving him a consistent run!
He's got the attitude, he's got the self criticism and he's got the talent. It's time we give him the chance.

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #225 on: July 3, 2003, 11:39:23 am »
Mercury and Zach: Two fine replies.

But, in my opinion, they both fail to look at what the problem at the club really is. Zach you have come the closest to putting a finger on the problem. However you isolate the strikers for your comparison of 2001 and 2003.

If you analyze those two seasons, it isn't the strikers that are the problem, it's the midfield and their supply. All season long we suffered on the left side. Did we not? Even to the point of playing Heskey there. To a lesser extent we suffered on the right side as well. Until Diouf took on the role and started to get more comfortable. Danny did well out there as well for the most part.
In 2001..did we suffer on the left and right? Not nearly.

But back to the goals thing for a minute. It's a MAJOR focus of every Heskey debate. Man Utd scored loads of goals last season, no? RVN banged them in. And their #2 striker OGS had 15 all season in all competitions. The season before Arsenal were Champions. Henry banged them in, no? And their #2 scorer was Ljungberg with 14. Is he a striker?

That's the very subtle point missing from the Heskey argument. Having two strikers score 20 goals works well on championship manager but in real football that's not exactly how it goes...it's a team thing... ;)

ps: I can kick a ball. Into row zed.... :o
« Last Edit: July 3, 2003, 11:40:15 am by 4pool »
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Offline Armin

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #226 on: July 3, 2003, 12:00:46 pm »
What makes the difference between Emile Heskey of 2001 and Emile Heskey of 2003? The answer is Michael Owen of 2001 and Michael Owen of 2003.

Back in the treble season Owen was a striker, but he was everything else. He dragged defenders, he drifted wide, he took men on... He was an awesome display of speed and skill.

However, Michael Owen has changed since then. You don't see him leading attacks, burning grass like he once did. You only get flashes of it. His all around abilities haven't developed, and (the fear of) injuries paid their toll.
That hurt Emile Heskey, because now they are no longer two strikers interacting, it's now the big guy playing as a "defensive striker" ::) and trying to feed the little guy who is now more often isolated near the box trying to latch into a through ball instead of trying to take the game in his hands and make some of the plays.

Since Michael Owen changed the way he plays and has abandoned the deeper aspects of being a forward, turning into a "fox in the box" type of player,

So what do we do? Try to turn them back? Tell Owen to drop deep more and lead the attack, We've talked about this before and most of you have said we can't tell our 'star' what to do.

 ???
Some interesting points re heskey Zach but I have to question your basic assumption that Owen has become a more limited player over the past 2 years.

Its been my impression that Michael HAS added to his game, drops deep more often, pulls out to the flanks and generally looks more of an all round player now than he did during the treble season - then he was an out and out striker, dependent on pace - now...  hmm perhaps, he seems more like a 'forward' ;)

Whatever, aside from an admittedly patchy season, in Owen's best performances he's been all over the final third of the pitch behind and on the shoulders of the defenders, both creating and scoring.  Leeds at home sticks in the mind, that was no fox in the box display.

As for your little aside about other forum member and not being able to tell our "star player" what to do, I find it a little frustrating when you refuse to address the point at the time - (in this case it was along the lines of GH having to work in the real world when dealing with Michael), and then moaning about it later in another thread.  

It makes you appear very blinkered to alternate points of view, and this of course makes me feel very sad :'(
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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #227 on: July 3, 2003, 01:55:46 pm »
It makes you appear very blinkered to alternate points of view, and this of course makes me feel very sad :'(

Don't understand why you feel this.

I was pointing out two possibilites:

1. Heskey plays and Owen starts dropping deep more often and helps Heskey out like he did before.
2. Owen plays at the top and Heskey's on the bench.

That IMO is the only way. Keeping up with today's MO&EH is not acceptable.

I'm not saying that Owen is limited, I'm saying that he hasn't shown all of what he can do and has done years before, probably because of his injury fears, I want to see more of Michael Owen. That is all.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2003, 02:19:55 pm by Zach17 »

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #228 on: July 3, 2003, 02:06:43 pm »
4pool:


I don't want two strikers who score 20 goals a season, but I want both strikers to pose threats to the opposition!

Ask yourself, is Heskey a threat in the role he plays in?

Also add, that I'm not a 4-4-2 man. I don't believe we're going to win the league with two strikers up front,
whether it's Owen&Heskey or Ronaldo&Vieri, unless both strikers take more responsibilites in deeper roles


Is our midfield really WORSE than what it was in 2001? I'd like an elaboration on that. We always had a problem there.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2003, 02:13:57 pm by Zach17 »

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #229 on: July 3, 2003, 04:33:07 pm »
Zach, bad of you to put it in two lines when I have tried to write a whole essay to explain my point!!  :( ;)

But I'll not wast my essay, here it is the shortened form:


Mercury and Zach: Two fine replies.

But, in my opinion, they both fail to look at what the problem at the club really is. Zach you have come the closest to putting a finger on the problem. However you isolate the strikers for your comparison of 2001 and 2003.

If you analyze those two seasons, it isn't the strikers that are the problem, it's the midfield and their supply. All season long we suffered on the left side. Did we not? Even to the point of playing Heskey there. To a lesser extent we suffered on the right side as well. Until Diouf took on the role and started to get more comfortable. Danny did well out there as well for the most part.
In 2001..did we suffer on the left and right? Not nearly.

But back to the goals thing for a minute. It's a MAJOR focus of every Heskey debate. Man Utd scored loads of goals last season, no? RVN banged them in. And their #2 striker OGS had 15 all season in all competitions. The season before Arsenal were Champions. Henry banged them in, no? And their #2 scorer was Ljungberg with 14. Is he a striker?

That's the very subtle point missing from the Heskey argument. Having two strikers score 20 goals works well on championship manager but in real football that's not exactly how it goes...it's a team thing... ;)

ps: I can kick a ball. Into row zed.... :o

Pool, you are really naughty, aren't u.  Keep veering the discussion to other direction every time after your questions are being addressed.    ::) 8)

Your subtle points, I guess, are that:

-  Heskey reflects the team's problem:  the lack of creativity and service from the midfield.  

The problem is true, only that, as Zach says,  whether it is worse than treble season is doubtful.  

Also, this problem seems to have affected Heskey more than other.   Compare the trend of his year on year individual scoring record with that of Owen  (a good reference point as Owen played mostly the same games, also went to Japan, had own bad spells, etc.):  Owen has maintained his goalscoring record.  Heskey deteriorated.  Doesn't that say something?

-  We do not need Heskey to be a prolific scorer.  as long as he is helping others to score, creating the spaces, that is fine.  

Even not being prolific, we need a second striker capable of scoring between 10-20 goals a year, plus contributions from the midfield.  These are GH's own words (I translated them into Chinese for a local fan site some time ago, so I remember).  

And, read my other posts carefully, i have not even start questioned Heskey's goalscoring record.  That is not upper most on my mind.  My main concern is his incapability to utilise his best gifts as a football player:  his physical presence and capaibility to run at defences (creating a threat, as Zach said) .   Remember a little story from GH in the treble season:  Babbel, tired of kept passed by Heskey in practice, resorted to jump on Heskey's back. Big Emile just continue to run on to the goal with Babbel on his back.  That is the Heskey I want to see.  Terrifying the defences - that is where his worth as a player lies, without which his ability in creating goalscoring opportunities for others would be limited.

The bottom of his problems is largely temperamental and problems in this area are most difficult for any player of any sport to overcome.   I have hoped maturity would help but so far....

So, would improved service from midfield help Heskey? Of course it would;   the question is to what extent.  I am not hopeful as Heskey's problems are far more fundmental and there is question on his ability to stay at the very top flight of football.  I'd throw down the gruntlet for him to prove me wrong.

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #230 on: July 3, 2003, 06:27:01 pm »
Mercury..i've been found out. I am naughty.. :o

Well to be honest...the problem is not Heskey which is what gets my goat. No matter how much one attempts to point this out, some bring personal preferences into the debate. You yourself keep saying what "you" want to see Heskey do.

What we are not priviledged to is what Heskey is 'told' to do. Houllier plays him because he fills the role that Ged and Thommo ask of him. Simple as that. Emile, your left wing today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to create space for Owen today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to hold the ball up today on the left. Right boss.. and so on.

I've said it earlier, we should all know Emile isn't going to get us 20 goals. Yet, inevitably any discussion of Heskey revolves around his "lack" of strike rate. He's gotten 10 to 15 goals year in year out.  And before anyone chimes in about he scored 9 last season, he would have reached his average total had he of been used as a striker all season. He scored 3 in his last 6 when used as a striker.

And i'm sorry to point out that Liverpool lost less when the Owen/Heskey partnership out did the Owen/Baros one. Facts are facts and no discussion of other reasons mitigate the fact LFC lost those matches. I realize most have trouble getting their heads around that. If you had a midfielder who supplied crosses and the team lost more when he was in v another who didn't have as many assists, don't you think the gaffer would notice? Don't you think the gaffer would sacrafice the chance of a few crosses for a better chance at winning? Why should that be different for strikers?

In the end, to me,......it's a shame so many of our own supporters underappreciate Heskey, fortunately for LFC it's not the coaching staff and his teammates who do.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #231 on: July 3, 2003, 10:47:33 pm »

What we are not priviledged to is what Heskey is 'told' to do. Houllier plays him because he fills the role that Ged and Thommo ask of him. Simple as that. Emile, your left wing today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to create space for Owen today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to hold the ball up today on the left. Right boss.. and so on.


Very true. We don't know what Heskey is supposed to do, what role he's given. What is clear however is that he doesn't "shine". That aura he had in 2001 is long gone. It's not just about the goals, he doesn't pose a threat anymore. He's given all sorts of jobs and we don't get to see the best of him. Basically, we've turned him into a loyal player who will do everything he's told to do, but in the process, he's surrendered his own game.

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Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #232 on: July 4, 2003, 03:17:52 pm »
Emile, your left wing today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to create space for Owen today. Right boss. Emile, I want you to hold the ball up today on the left. Right boss.. and so on.

Sickening thought.

Why don't you just put a big fat cow in the middle of the park, it doesn't charge 40,000 pounds a week for its services. All it needs is a bit of grass (Already on the pitch).

Seriously now, is that a legitimate reason to put a player on the pitch? A striker?! I've never seen anything like it.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2003, 03:18:11 pm by Zach17 »

Offline smicer07

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #233 on: July 4, 2003, 03:34:33 pm »
You seem to expect both strikers to score lots and lots of goals, when the fact is, how many Premiership teams have TWO strikers who score lots? Not many... in fact, I checked out the stats a while ago and I think Viduka and Kewell were the only ones who score consistently. Not even Man United (Van Nistelrooy only), Newcastle (Shearer) and Arsenal (Henry) have striking partnerships whereby both players score alot. It's called teamwork and playing off each other, and as far as I'm concerned (barring last season's nightmare, which I can safely say is a one-off) Owen and Heskey is our best working partnership up front.

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #234 on: July 4, 2003, 03:34:58 pm »
"Why don't you just put a big fat cow in the middle of the park, it doesn't charge 40,000 pounds a week for its services. All it needs is a bit of grass (Already on the pitch)."

And that's immature and disrespectful.

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #235 on: July 4, 2003, 03:38:10 pm »
you can only say heskey is owens best partner because none of our other strikers (ie baros) have been given a good run in the team with owen to be able to form a partnership with owen, given the chance i think baros and owen could be a great partnership

Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #236 on: July 4, 2003, 03:38:21 pm »
I was joking.

"Seriously now..."

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #237 on: July 4, 2003, 03:38:46 pm »
You seem to expect both strikers to score lots and lots of goals, when the fact is, how many Premiership teams have TWO strikers who score lots? Not many... in fact, I checked out the stats a while ago and I think Viduka and Kewell were the only ones who score consistently. Not even Man United (Van Nistelrooy only), Newcastle (Shearer) and Arsenal (Henry) have striking partnerships whereby both players score alot. It's called teamwork and playing off each other, and as far as I'm concerned (barring last season's nightmare, which I can safely say is a one-off) Owen and Heskey is our best working partnership up front.

Well the one main striker thing is a good point.  But take a look around and you'll see someone creative who lays on a lot of goals for the main man.
Beckham and Giggs for Man U.
Berkgkamp, Pires and Ljundberg for Arsenal.
Bellamy and Robert for Newcastle.
Heskey for us.

He has next to no assists - and scores less than all those players mentioned for the top 3 last year.

IMO he is not worth his place, and by comparison, he's woeful.
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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #238 on: July 4, 2003, 09:31:09 pm »
Ohh of the players you listed only Bellamy is a striker and I think if you checked his assists total it isn't that great either.

And as we're talking 'partnerships', the role of a partner is to see to it that the #1 scores. Owen seems to think Heskey has done well for him. But of course supporters know better. ;)

KOTP: Baros and a run of matches..well he started five of the last six and his record was 3 wins, 2 losses. But of course it wasn't his fault. Guess it wasn't his fault we won 3 either. Two of those 3 wins were when Heskey started as well. So was that the 'partnership' part that won those two matches? ;)

But as I said earlier in this thread, it's about the "team" and their performance, not an individual. The players that give us the best chance of winning, do win, then  they should stay as a unit. But I bet some wouldn't agree if that meant Baros on the bench. Better to play him than win because that's what it's all about, entertainment for the pound

Milan Baros started 9 League matches from January through May. 4 wins. 5 losses.

Now I would suggest that if Milan starts 9 matches next season in the first 12 or by Chrimbo and Liverpool lose 5 of them again regardless of why...do you think Milan will get the blame or Houllier? I bet I know the answer.
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Offline Zach

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Re:Heskey commits future........time to prove your worth Emile
« Reply #239 on: July 5, 2003, 09:15:25 am »
You have a very "1-0" way of thinking, 4pool.

Heskey spares Owen from all the dirty defensive work and tries to help him nick the goal. When Owen scores one, Heskey sits back and adds into our midfield, flicking long balls and hoofs into Owen who tries to nick another goal.


But what happens when we're down a goal, professor?

What happens when our defence can't take the pressure 90 minutes every game?
What happens if our goalie blunders?
What happens if the opposition gets a penalty after 5 minutes?
What happens if someone of ours gets sent off?
What happens if Owen is out of form and can't score?

Mission compromised, professor, let's just sit back and hope we don't get 5!
You don't win championships playing this way.
« Last Edit: July 5, 2003, 09:20:20 am by Zach17 »