Author Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)  (Read 925854 times)

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2017, 08:37:50 am »
Again i dont think its a tiredness but a form thing. Everyone was begging for Firmino to get a rest but he has seemed to played through his poor form.
I said in my post it's a combination of form/fitness, but you're using one player as an example of the rest of the team not being tired, even then it's a poor example as Firmino has had more poor games over the last few weeks than good. When we drew with Sunderland it wasn't because the players were out of form, it was because it was our second game in two days and we played the same players. 

Form often follows fitness, when players are tired they start to make mistakes, loose passes, poor control etc. The zip and spark that was in our game earlier in the season has gone. Combined with opposition teams altering their tactics against us we're looking slow and sluggish.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2017, 08:48:57 am »
I said in my post it's a combination of form/fitness, but you're using one player as an example of the rest of the team not being tired, even then it's a poor example as Firmino has had more poor games over the last few weeks than good. When we drew with Sunderland it wasn't because the players were out of form, it was because it was our second game in two days and we played the same players. 

Form often follows fitness, when players are tired they start to make mistakes, loose passes, poor control etc. The zip and spark that was in our game earlier in the season has gone. Combined with opposition teams altering their tactics against us we're looking slow and sluggish.


The zip has gone but ultimately whats cost us is too many players being hampered or out. Firmino has done well in the last two games but Lallana's form has dropped and as has Henderson, which is not surprising as he is still injured. Hopefully we can manage him through from next week.

But lets not downplay our issues. Clyne injured, Matip injured, Mane gone, Coutinho as always takes a few games to get back into it. Its just too much to cope with for us.

Look at Spurs. They were hardly the team they are now when Alli was off form and Kane was injured. We need to work through this and I am certain we will. The problem is somehow limiting the damage in the meantime.


Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2017, 08:56:17 am »
The zip has gone but ultimately whats cost us is too many players being hampered or out. Firmino has done well in the last two games but Lallana's form has dropped and as has Henderson, which is not surprising as he is still injured. Hopefully we can manage him through from next week.

But lets not downplay our issues. Clyne injured, Matip injured, Mane gone, Coutinho as always takes a few games to get back into it. Its just too much to cope with for us.

Look at Spurs. They were hardly the team they are now when Alli was off form and Kane was injured. We need to work through this and I am certain we will. The problem is somehow limiting the damage in the meantime.
Which once again is something I covered in my post, our first eleven is very good but the back-up is poor or hasn’t been used enough.

Lallana was arguably one of our best players up until a few weeks ago but once mane left, he’s been moved from pillar to post to try and fill the Mane shaped hole. It was ridiculous to move him from where he was performing so well and now his form has suffered. We should have had a Mane replacement lined up as soon as January started instead of upsetting the balance of the team.

But Lallana has also been posting some incredible distance numbers, highest distance covered, most sprints etc etc even through the Christmas period. He’s knackered and as I said above, form often drops and mistakes start to happen when fitness drops.   
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Offline SteveLFC

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2017, 09:12:11 am »
Oh what I would give for a Steve Mcmanaman type player in this current squad. Someone who can dribble passed players and get through packed defences with incisive pass and move. It would give us the plan B we lack. For plan C it we need a Xabi Alonso type player who can sit and stop opposition attacks and make killer passes forward.

Offline HeartAndSoul

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2017, 09:50:28 am »
Should Klopp have a rethink about gegenpressing in England? In Germany I know they have a 2 week winter break and I very much doubt they have such a demanding run of games in December like we have over here. As the season has went on, our pressing has been less and less effective; whether that's the players totally burnt out or teams setting up differently but we're hardly winning the ball higher up as we used to do, take yesterday for example Southampton broke through our press quite easily and played right through us.

Maybe playing at 100mph at the start of the season for the first 15 games or so is coming back to haunt us and maybe we should have an alternative style of play and pick and choose who to play the high press against?

Or maybe we're just missing Mane  ;D

Online AndyMuller

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2017, 09:57:43 am »
Why have we resorted to crossing it so much lately?

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2017, 10:02:09 am »
Why have we resorted to crossing it so much lately?
Probably because teams are so narrow against us so we have space down the wide areas plus having no threat in behind without Mane.
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Online JackWard33

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2017, 10:13:34 am »
Probably because teams are so narrow against us so we have space down the wide areas plus having no threat in behind without Mane.

He wasn't a threat in behind most games anyway because most teams sit deep - but one of the great things about him is he doesn't cross. Very rarely does it - much more interested in carrying the ball into the area or playing 1-2s with players inside

It was depressing how much we crossed last night agianst set competent defenders - especially from full back (Milner 14 / Trent 8).... teams have figured out they can funnel us wide and we're currently stupid enough to take the bait and loft it in.
Wasn't happening before Christmas - needs to be changed now 

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2017, 10:17:50 am »
He wasn't a threat in behind most games anyway because most teams sit deep - but one of the great things about him is he doesn't cross. Very rarely does it - much more interested in carrying the ball into the area or playing 1-2s with players inside

It was depressing how much we crossed last night agianst set competent defenders - especially from full back (Milner 14 / Trent 8).... teams have figured out they can funnel us wide and we're currently stupid enough to take the bait and loft it in.
Wasn't happening before Christmas - needs to be changed now
They're clearly being told to cross, if not they wouldn't be doing it. Mane was a constant threat with his pace, we don't have anyone in our front line capable of that in recent games.
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Offline BER

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2017, 10:18:39 am »
We were a finely tuned machine. Can and Sturridge undermine that whole dynamic sadly. And it's been obvious nearly every time they've played this season. Unbelievable to me the performances Can has been getting away with.

Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2017, 10:22:03 am »
Yep we've been crossing loads. Can't understand it either.  But like Funky said, our Full backs are being given so much space to run into, and aren't the types to drive into the box, that all they've got left to do is cross.  If we had an overlapping runner getting deep to the bye-line or dribbling into the box, it would be a different story, but without Mane we don't have that penetration.
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Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2017, 10:23:40 am »
We were a finely tuned machine. Can and Sturridge undermine that whole dynamic sadly. And it's been obvious nearly every time they've played this season. Unbelievable to me the performances Can has been getting away with.

I was amazed Can got the nod over Gini.  Only thing I can think is he was being rested.  Our best midfield 3 by a country mile is Hendo - Gini - Lallana.  Klopp must know this and we don't have info that he does.
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2017, 10:27:41 am »
I was amazed Can got the nod over Gini.  Only thing I can think is he was being rested.  Our best midfield 3 by a country mile is Hendo - Gini - Lallana.  Klopp must know this and we don't have info that he does.
Wijnaldum hasn't exactly been penetrative so far this season, I thought Can did OK last night, especially second half when he created some of our best goal scoring chances. I think he got the nod to give us an aerial threat in the box when we crossed.
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Offline gatcliffe

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2017, 10:31:43 am »
The team was functioning ok up to Bournmouth away and the wheels have come off since . JK is getting what he can out of the players he has, one has to ask if he is trying to get blood out of a stone at times.
What worries me is that if things are not sorted a CL place goes by the wayside perish the thought.
The way the team is playing at the moment no one is grabbing a game by the horns, they all seem to just let the games pass them by.
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Online JackWard33

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #94 on: January 26, 2017, 10:32:43 am »
Yep we've been crossing loads. Can't understand it either.  But like Funky said, our Full backs are being given so much space to run into, and aren't the types to drive into the box, that all they've got left to do is cross.  If we had an overlapping runner getting deep to the bye-line or dribbling into the box, it would be a different story, but without Mane we don't have that penetration.

If they don't have options they should be holding the ball and recycling possession - crossing is close to a back pass for the oppposition in terms of effectiveness with our line up
Early in the season Milner and Coutinho on the left and Mane and Clyne on the right - usually joined by Lallana - were expected creating overloads for fun and passing their way through teams who couldn't handle the movement.
We have to get back to that and we have to restore some patience and intelligence to our attacks.
We've gone from being one of the most effective attacks in the country to barely creating a big chance

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #95 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:00 am »
They're clearly being told to cross, if not they wouldn't be doing it. Mane was a constant threat with his pace, we don't have anyone in our front line capable of that in recent games.

As I said in the post match thread, if only TAA had Benteke's head to aim at, we would have won by a landslide. On a side note, I often have this thing in my head where we signed Rudy Gestede to be a bench warmer, who would come on the last 10 minutes whenever we were chasing a game, just pushing the little maggots away to head the ball into the net. That would be a sight to see.

Seems like Klopp likes his tall players, I imagine that's why we've been chasing Brandt all this time. He's trying to increase our average height just so we can improve our set pieces, and also give another option in the box. I think that's why we've been having a hard time trying to find suitable targets that are available. Big strong hard working players who can also play technically are really hard to come by.


We were a finely tuned machine. Can and Sturridge undermine that whole dynamic sadly. And it's been obvious nearly every time they've played this season. Unbelievable to me the performances Can has been getting away with.

It's almost like every thread now is a take a dump thread type of deal. Can't you take your dump in the post match thread?

Offline Chris~

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #96 on: January 26, 2017, 10:34:11 am »
The team was functioning ok up to Bournmouth away and the wheels have come off since .
We won 4 drew 1 of our next 5 after the Bournmouth game. Wasn't until the start of January that we really dipped.

Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #97 on: January 26, 2017, 10:35:22 am »
If they don't have options they should be holding the ball and recycling possession - crossing is close to a back pass for the oppposition in terms of effectiveness with our line up
Early in the season Milner and Coutinho on the left and Mane and Clyne on the right - usually joined by Lallana - were expected creating overloads for fun and passing their way through teams who couldn't handle the movement.
We have to get back to that and we have to restore some patience and intelligence to our attacks.
We've gone from being one of the most effective attacks in the country to barely creating a big chance

Yep, agree completely, the pass and move and innovation is just missing.  Tempo has gone, the lightning quick - pinging it around passing that was happening with amazing movement has just dropped right off.  We need it back and fast! 
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #98 on: January 26, 2017, 10:43:01 am »
Yep, agree completely, the pass and move and innovation is just missing.  Tempo has gone, the lightning quick - pinging it around passing that was happening with amazing movement has just dropped right off.  We need it back and fast!
Teams aren't setting up against us to allow us to do that anymore, they're getting everyone behind the ball and leaving us the wide areas. It's too easy to say we need x, y and z players back and to start to pass and move again but when teams are defending so narrow against us we haven't got that space. Even Plymouth were able to come to Anfield and look comfortable against us using those tactics.

It looks to me like Klopp has recognised this and is trying to tweak the way we play. I'm not sure crossing the ball more is the answer although both goals against Swansea came from crosses and our best chances last night did too.
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Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #99 on: January 26, 2017, 10:45:50 am »
It's almost like every thread now is a take a dump thread type of deal. Can't you take your dump in the post match thread?

Mate I'm as positive as anyone, but the reason all the threads are degenerating the way we are is because we're playing shite and not winning!  We're all searching for answers and hoping the form turns around.
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Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #100 on: January 26, 2017, 10:48:09 am »
Teams aren't setting up against us to allow us to do that anymore, they're getting everyone behind the ball and leaving us the wide areas. It's too easy to say we need x, y and z players back and to start to pass and move again but when teams are defending so narrow against us we haven't got that space. Even Plymouth were able to come to Anfield and look comfortable against us using those tactics.

It looks to me like Klopp has recognised this and is trying to tweak the way we play. I'm not sure crossing the ball more is the answer although both goals against Swansea came from crosses and our best chances last night did too.

Interesting, we just don't seem to have the personnel to play that way, although like you say Firmino scored twice from crosses the other day.  Do you think defences are playing so differently now to when we were cutting teams apart earlier in the season?
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Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #101 on: January 26, 2017, 10:54:37 am »
Interesting, we just don't seem to have the personnel to play that way, although like you say Firmino scored twice from crosses the other day.  Do you think defences are playing so differently now to when we were cutting teams apart earlier in the season?
I think teams are looking to frustrate us for as long as possible by defending deep and narrow and looking to hit us on the counter attack. Mourinho did it but Moyes did also with a shitty Sunderland and frustrated us for long periods of that game before we scored quite late. I think that performance gave other teams encouragement and since then we've won 3 drawn 2 and lost 2 at home.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #102 on: January 26, 2017, 10:57:25 am »
We were a finely tuned machine. Can and Sturridge undermine that whole dynamic sadly. And it's been obvious nearly every time they've played this season. Unbelievable to me the performances Can has been getting away with.

Sake man. Did you not watch the Watford, West Brom and Palace games when we played our best football of the season? Guess who started those games alongside Lallana and Hendo in midfield? Emre Can.

What about the only time Chelsea haven't won a home game this season? Or when we smashed Leicester 4-1? Or when we turned it around against Swansea? Guess who started (or in the case of Swansea, played from 20 minutes) those games? Daniel Sturridge.

If football was that simple then we wouldn't need to be paying Jurgen Klopp however many million pounds a year. Just get our best team out every week and we'll smash everyone, yeah?

Can't you see it goes way beyond a couple of individuals you don't happen to like very much (and who were also two of our better performers in the second half last night anyway)?

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2017, 10:58:31 am »
Mate I'm as positive as anyone, but the reason all the threads are degenerating the way we are is because we're playing shite and not winning!  We're all searching for answers and hoping the form turns around.

I like the fact that specific threads are there to talk about specific things. I think it is allowed that people do get upset and complain, because at this point in time it is called for. But what does how crap Emre Can is doing have anything to do with tactics?

If this all descends into anarchy I'm not sure what the difference is between this forum and the multitude of other forums out there who let their members do whatever they want.

Offline me76

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #104 on: January 26, 2017, 11:01:56 am »
I like the fact that specific threads are there to talk about specific things. I think it is allowed that people do get upset and complain, because at this point in time it is called for. But what does how crap Emre Can is doing have anything to do with tactics?

If this all descends into anarchy I'm not sure what the difference is between this forum and the multitude of other forums out there who let their members do whatever they want.

Yeah fair enough, I think perhaps the central point to the Emre discussion is that our midfield/team doesn't look as fluent with him in it, and he hasn't played especially well this year, despite the results some people have pointed to with him in the side.  Our best performances have come without him in the team, and including him forces one of our very best players (Lallana) out of position.  I think that's the tactical discussion.
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #105 on: January 26, 2017, 11:10:00 am »
We're decent enough at retaining possession but tonight we barely laid a glove on Southampton. Can's shot aside we didn't trouble their keeper with them playing a second string CB pairing. Too much side to side passing and far too ponderous in possession. Milner keeps having to go inside  even when out on the touchline. Serious lack of width and pace. Never threatened to get in behind Southampton yet they were able to get through us with 3/4 passes on the break. We badly need a proper sitting defensive midfielder.  Because teams park the bus at Anfield we need to be able to get in around the back of the house. The rare occasion we got decent crosses into the box we caused them problems. I know we have Mane coming back but you need a lot more pacy players than just Mane.
If we go 1-0 up we are perfectly set up to hurt teams at our best. We have intelligent players like Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino. But when asked to pick a lock we can be stumped too easily. Pass and move will only tire the opposition out if it's quick, and incisive. We were neither tonight.
Klopp is a very shrewd manager and it's still early in his tenure. I'm confident he will get it right.

I have you spot on, with all your points.

Add to this, we will need to upgrade the attacking skills of BOTH full backs, long term, in my opinion - if we want to go toe-to-toe with the Chelsea's and Man Cities of this world (they will be back) must have attacking full-backs
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Offline andy07

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #106 on: January 26, 2017, 11:21:52 am »
Again i dont think its a tiredness but a form thing. Everyone was begging for Firmino to get a rest but he has seemed to played through his poor form.

It is defo form rather than fitness, coupled with the lack of a couple of key players and an inability to vary tactics.   
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #107 on: January 26, 2017, 11:22:02 am »
Yeah fair enough, I think perhaps the central point to the Emre discussion is that our midfield/team doesn't look as fluent with him in it, and he hasn't played especially well this year, despite the results some people have pointed to with him in the side.  Our best performances have come without him in the team, and including him forces one of our very best players (Lallana) out of position.  I think that's the tactical discussion.

I think tactics are more than individual players, but rather a collective issue. We have players who have played poorly for us on and off over the last few games, but holding them all individually accountable for our tactical failures misses the point entirely. I actually agree that Can has been, on average, playing quite poorly for us, because he's just not intelligent enough with his play. But I think that type of complaint misses the mark, because it's now a man management issue, not a tactical issue.

On another note, TAA I imagine has been told to cross the ball constantly once he gets down to the byline, I imagine not because Klopp thinks crosses into the box are a great idea, but he probably didn't want him to lose the ball in compromising positions which will expose us to the counter with an ailing Henderson and Matip as his cover. Is this the case? I am not sure, but it's worth discussing simply because I find it odd that we would be pumping so many crosses in there with Sturridge (instead of Origi) as our spearhead. We had the same issue the last few months when Rodgers was in charge, and now it is rearing its ugly head again.

Offline Adam_LFC

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #108 on: January 26, 2017, 11:27:58 am »
We have resorted to crossing a lot as well as a lot of long balls to beat the first press of teams. I am afraid that teams have 'figured us out' in terms of being able to nullify our best attributes. Then it is a case of catching us on the break or getting a chance against our less than stellar defense.

Firmino is our best striker and he really isn't a natural striker, that say's it all. He is the only front man on form (except Mane but you know..) and we are shifting him about all over the place. Keep him as the pinnacle and he will score goals and make it hard for the opposition. But then that brings up the other issue of who plays either side of him? The squad is really thin, and we have only one genuinely good wide option in Mane, who isn't even available.

Starting with Henderson AND Can at home or against 'weaker' sides is redundant as well.

Is there any substance in Klopp's possibly naivety in training/assembling the side for preparation over the winter period? Is it a coincidence this form dip has happened during the period where he would usually have his feet up?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 11:32:16 am by Adam_LFC »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #109 on: January 26, 2017, 11:37:34 am »
We have resorted to crossing a lot as well as a lot of long balls to beat the first press of teams. I am afraid that teams have 'figured us out' in terms of being able to nullify our best attributes. Then it is a case of catching us on the break or getting a chance against our less than stellar defense.

Firmino is our best striker and he really isn't a natural striker, that say's it all. He is the only front man on form (except Mane but you know..) and we are shifting him about all over the place. Keep him as the pinnacle and he will score goals and make it hard for the opposition. But then that brings up the other issue of who plays either side of him? The squad is really thin, and we have only one genuinely good wide option in Mane, who isn't even available.

Starting with Henderson AND Can at home or against 'weaker' sides is redundant as well.

Is there any substance in Klopp's possibly naivety in training/assembling the side for preparation over the winter period? Is it a coincidence this form dip has happened during the period where he would usually have his feet up?

No. Seems like a bollocks and lazy argument. We have had plenty of possession and plenty of rest. 2 games ago firmino needed a rest but he has been our best attacker since. Dont buy the media hype.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #110 on: January 26, 2017, 11:43:55 am »
I think tactics are more than individual players, but rather a collective issue. We have players who have played poorly for us on and off over the last few games, but holding them all individually accountable for our tactical failures misses the point entirely. I actually agree that Can has been, on average, playing quite poorly for us, because he's just not intelligent enough with his play. But I think that type of complaint misses the mark, because it's now a man management issue, not a tactical issue.

On another note, TAA I imagine has been told to cross the ball constantly once he gets down to the byline, I imagine not because Klopp thinks crosses into the box are a great idea, but he probably didn't want him to lose the ball in compromising positions which will expose us to the counter with an ailing Henderson and Matip as his cover. Is this the case? I am not sure, but it's worth discussing simply because I find it odd that we would be pumping so many crosses in there with Sturridge (instead of Origi) as our spearhead. We had the same issue the last few months when Rodgers was in charge, and now it is rearing its ugly head again.

Yeah its a good point about TAA.  Seems like a crazy tactic when we don't have an imposing striker to get on the end of crosses, despite Firmino's recent exploits.  We've become so susceptible to teams breaking quickly that perhaps crossing it ensures a clearance gives us a chance with a second ball.  I don't know what the solution is to the low block, other teams (chelsea in particular) seem to be able to break it down, it's perplexing that we can't.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2017, 11:46:19 am »
We need a solution quick because I can see Chelsea coming and setting up exactly the same as Swansea and Southampton have done. Chelsea would happily walk away with a 0-0 and a point. We need the win more than they do.

I don't think we've looked tired, I think we've looked a bit clueless. When a team sits and doesn't press it kills the tempo and we've played at their tempo too often. When we raised the tempo to what we want to play at we opened Swansea and Southampton up.

Carraghers verdict on Sturridge last night was brutal but realistic. Someone mentioned we had 42 crosses last night, stick Origi in. Least he's tall enough and willing enough to compete.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #112 on: January 26, 2017, 11:49:42 am »
No. Seems like a bollocks and lazy argument. We have had plenty of possession and plenty of rest. 2 games ago firmino needed a rest but he has been our best attacker since. Dont buy the media hype.

Plenty of possession maybe. But you can't tell me we have been playing with the same intensity we have earlier in the season. Which may be impossible to maintain, fair enough. But there needs to be contingency for when that happens, or an altering in style to increase the longevity.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #113 on: January 26, 2017, 12:49:57 pm »
Teams aren't setting up against us to allow us to do that anymore, they're getting everyone behind the ball and leaving us the wide areas. It's too easy to say we need x, y and z players back and to start to pass and move again but when teams are defending so narrow against us we haven't got that space. Even Plymouth were able to come to Anfield and look comfortable against us using those tactics.

It looks to me like Klopp has recognised this and is trying to tweak the way we play. I'm not sure crossing the ball more is the answer although both goals against Swansea came from crosses and our best chances last night did too.

We can still play the incisive, quick passing, even with the space more restricted. We're playing too many horizontal passes and we've lost confidence (or lose confidence during the game when we don't see immediate results). There were a few moments yesterday when the ball was fizzed into the front man and we looked a threat (shots got blocked, but we broke the initial block).  We can still do pass-and-move even in restricted spaces. So, what can we do to improve? I would suggest this:

1. Play more vertical passes
2. Increase the tempo and intensity
3. More 3rd man running

To expand on the 3 points:

1. In the final third, we need more vertical passes into the front man (be it Sturridge, Origi or Firmino). The key here is playing the pass even when there is little space and they have a defender up their backside. The idea being to by-pass the first block of opposition players. I wouldn't expect the front man to then turn, or do something magic with the ball, I just want him to take a good touch and bring another player into the game (the 3rd man runner preferably). I noticed yesterday that whenever this pass was played, Sturridge was closer to the first block of players than the second block - that for me, is the mistake. This pass has to be played beyond the first block. It takes confidence and bravery to play that pass as the space is limited and the player WILL be pressed. I've heard Klopp mention numerous times in interviews about being brave in possession, this is an example of that.

2. Pretty self explanatory - everything is too slow at the moment. Too many touches, no zip, and we're not mentally affecting the opposition at all. It's more like the training ground, attack vs defence, as opposed to a seige mentally. Again the horizontal passes stifle the tempo. Of course, I understand why we're moving the ball from one side to another, but on the transition, or next phase, the speed has to be increased.

3. I think this is killing us. There's no 3rd man running off the ball. It's static. We play a pass and watch it, play a pass and watch it. There's some elementary, school boy stuff we're not doing. Can anyone remember "follow your pass"? If Hendo, Can, Gini, Lallana or the fullbacks do this, it will force the first block of players to make a decision - Do we press the runner? Do we back off? Do we attack the ball? At the moment, no-one follows their pass, so it's all in front of them, no energy consumed, no disruption to their set mentality, so it's easy. This isn't even 3rd man running, it's just very basic movement in football. The 3rd man running should tie in with point 1, the ball hits the front man and the 3rd man is running onto him to either pick up the ball or drag the opposition out of position. Lallana does it, but it's been less frequent. Gini did it vs Swansea, we score. We have enough bodies in that area to consistently do it.

 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #114 on: January 26, 2017, 01:34:21 pm »
Not sure that Can has much football intelligence. He does all the showy/flashy bits well which is why I think supporters rate him highly. However, his decision making and game nous from what I've seen is pretty poor. I think this is the reason that Hendo is the deeper of the two. Hendo, for all his problems, is still quite an intelligent footballer and is usually positioned better than Can is.

I wonder if our movement has suffered a little bit from having a small squad and a crowded recent schedule. Because of these 2 factors, our key players are probably more likely to have a period of recovery/rest after games. Even Klopp said that during this period, they don't train all that much. I wonder if that means the understanding between players has just degraded a little. It may well come back once we have a less crowded fixture schedule and more time to prepare for games tactically.

I totally disagree about Can.  If you look at last year, when he was playing as the deepest CM, he was fantastic and everyone was raving about the performances he was putting in.  His skillset is made for that deepest CM position.

I also think the players obviously look absolutely exhausted which is the biggest reason that we are struggling at the moment.  Klopp hasn't used his squad enough especially over the Christmas period and it's a major influence to how we are playing now. 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #115 on: January 26, 2017, 01:37:13 pm »
Again i dont think its a tiredness but a form thing. Everyone was begging for Firmino to get a rest but he has seemed to played through his poor form.

The result of fatigue is poor form.  It's likely not the only reason for our dip but I think it's definitely one of the reason's. 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #116 on: January 26, 2017, 01:52:05 pm »
We can still play the incisive, quick passing, even with the space more restricted. We're playing too many horizontal passes and we've lost confidence (or lose confidence during the game when we don't see immediate results). There were a few moments yesterday when the ball was fizzed into the front man and we looked a threat (shots got blocked, but we broke the initial block).  We can still do pass-and-move even in restricted spaces. So, what can we do to improve? I would suggest this:

1. Play more vertical passes
2. Increase the tempo and intensity
3. More 3rd man running

To expand on the 3 points:

1. In the final third, we need more vertical passes into the front man (be it Sturridge, Origi or Firmino). The key here is playing the pass even when there is little space and they have a defender up their backside. The idea being to by-pass the first block of opposition players. I wouldn't expect the front man to then turn, or do something magic with the ball, I just want him to take a good touch and bring another player into the game (the 3rd man runner preferably). I noticed yesterday that whenever this pass was played, Sturridge was closer to the first block of players than the second block - that for me, is the mistake. This pass has to be played beyond the first block. It takes confidence and bravery to play that pass as the space is limited and the player WILL be pressed. I've heard Klopp mention numerous times in interviews about being brave in possession, this is an example of that.

2. Pretty self explanatory - everything is too slow at the moment. Too many touches, no zip, and we're not mentally affecting the opposition at all. It's more like the training ground, attack vs defence, as opposed to a seige mentally. Again the horizontal passes stifle the tempo. Of course, I understand why we're moving the ball from one side to another, but on the transition, or next phase, the speed has to be increased.

3. I think this is killing us. There's no 3rd man running off the ball. It's static. We play a pass and watch it, play a pass and watch it. There's some elementary, school boy stuff we're not doing. Can anyone remember "follow your pass"? If Hendo, Can, Gini, Lallana or the fullbacks do this, it will force the first block of players to make a decision - Do we press the runner? Do we back off? Do we attack the ball? At the moment, no-one follows their pass, so it's all in front of them, no energy consumed, no disruption to their set mentality, so it's easy. This isn't even 3rd man running, it's just very basic movement in football. The 3rd man running should tie in with point 1, the ball hits the front man and the 3rd man is running onto him to either pick up the ball or drag the opposition out of position. Lallana does it, but it's been less frequent. Gini did it vs Swansea, we score. We have enough bodies in that area to consistently do it.

Certainly agree with points 1 and 3.  As has been debated to death in his thread, one of the limitations of Hendo is that he doesn't look to play those vertical passes either in to the CM's or into the front players.  If you look at the pass maps of our games you will see that the majority of his passes go out to the fullbacks with most of them going out to Milner.  We had been doing a great job of combining out on the flanks with the fullback, CM, and wide forward but that hasn't been happening as of late because, as you mentioned in point 3, there is very little movement off the ball.  The 3rd man running, as you put it, was a staple of the first part of our season with Lallana and Wijnaldum looking to get beyond our forward line and into the box.  Even when they don't get the ball that movement opens up more space for others specifically Firmino when he played as the central striker. 

Obviously, we've had injuries, had to move players around, and are suffering from quite a bit of tiredness.  The result of the injuries, moving players around, fatigue has resulted in our movement not being as sharp which slows down the tempo of our attack.  It's a vicious cycle and hopefully after the Chelsea match the manager will be able to give the team a few days off to rest and recover and, if we don't pick up any more injuries, we'll be able to get our best players back in their best positions and will start playing better again. 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #117 on: January 26, 2017, 02:43:09 pm »
Tactically what this team desperately needs is more dribbling ability.

We need that even more than pace because due to our quality 90% of games we are involved in are against low-block teams who compress the central space and push us wide, there's hardly any space to exploit behind their backline so it would make much more sense to get a really, really good dribbler to receive the ball in wide areas and look to dribble past players which then creates space elsewhere and opens up a lot of possibilities.

The profile of the player that would benefit us more than any other profile is somebody like a peak Arjen Robben, somebody who can routinely take players out of the game with their dribbling, draw fouls, win free-kicks in dangerous areas. So when teams like Soton and even Swansea (who intentionally let Clyne be free in possession in order to maintain their compactness in the middle) want to leave spaces open in wide areas again with this kind of profile we would be able to punish them for it and make it impossible for them to choose just one area of the pitch to defend - it would be really make us almost impossible to defend against.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #118 on: January 26, 2017, 02:51:56 pm »
Tactically what this team desperately needs is more dribbling ability.

We need that even more than pace because due to our quality 90% of games we are involved in are against low-block teams who compress the central space and push us wide, there's hardly any space to exploit behind their backline so it would make much more sense to get a really, really good dribbler to receive the ball in wide areas and look to dribble past players which then creates space elsewhere and opens up a lot of possibilities.


Quote

Agreed- both on the wings and down the middle. Henderson and Can lack that quality (they do not have a feel for the ball in the same way so many south american players do.). I know that it is risky to to dribble in midfield and that they should circulate. However, they are too conservative-too may horizontal and too few vertical passes. The need to follow their vertical passes as suggested.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 02:53:45 pm by nico 8 »

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #119 on: January 26, 2017, 03:31:35 pm »
Tactically what this team desperately needs is more dribbling ability.

Couldn't disagree more.  We already have players with dribbling ability in Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana, and Mane.  What we're missing at the moment, and what has changed from earlier in the season, is movement off the ball and midfielders running past our front 3.