Topic: The Anfield Wrap

[Big Bamber]

Sorry, yes the pod about Naby yesterday. A collation of interviews.

[-HH-]

Think it's the special they did a few months ago, presume they've reposted it after the unveiling yesterday.

Ah OK. That makes sense as I didn't see a Naby pod yesterday.

[Cheshire_Cat]

Might be just my podcast app, but did anybody else lose the end of the Burnley review?

These reviews are brilliant by the way!

[hollger]

Might be just my podcast app, but did anybody else lose the end of the Burnley review?

These reviews are brilliant by the way!

Yep, it cuts off before the end (49 mins or so?). I use the website player not any kind of app. A bit disappointing, was enjoying that one too! Hopefully can be fixed, I doubt there's much been cut off but it'd be nice to hear the end/summation part.

[Dench57]

Never thought I'd see the day where people were upset by not hearing more about Burnley 

[Adamski LFC]

Really enjoyed the special on Xherdan Shaqiri hearing from a variety of sources on the lad.

Not sure about the player but this format was brilliant and if we could have it for new players as well that would be brilliant.  A rounded view of the player is a great listen

[Fitzy.]

Really enjoyed the special on Xherdan Shaqiri hearing from a variety of sources on the lad.

Not sure about the player but this format was brilliant and if we could have it for new players as well that would be brilliant.  A rounded view of the player is a great listen

Yes. There's occasionally a danger that received wisdom spreads around TAW. Getting outsider views is good way of realigning perspectives.

[red_Mark1980]

While I was glad they addressed the autocup scheme, slightly weird they got Gibbo to give his overview.

Not a criticism of Gibbo, but hes a STH and I know Neil said he gave him no time to pull it together.

Yes everyone got boxed , but there was a real scramble. I got lucky in that I got in with a five minute wait. If I'd been unable to get online at 10am (entirely possible as at one point I was going away for work on Monday) my mate had over a one hour wait.

Plenty of others weren't as lucky as I was. I thought the lad who was also on the show (forgive me as I couldn't remember his name) gave a members view as he's actually a member. It's a farce and there was a bit of an air of "everyone will get one so it's OK"

Also one last time, I know STH have always been able to jump the queue. Doesn't make it right

[Jookie]

I thought the GK chat on last Monday's pod was a good one but disagreed with parts of Gibbo and Dan Austin's bits. I understand that people don't want Karius starting the season. I thought Gibbo's points about Karius and the difficulties he faced were fair. What I can't get my head around is bit were he was going on about ' the growing part of powerlessness that fans feel towards what happens at football clubs' and how that relates to Karius. I understand that feeling of loss of influence in general but that has very little to do with influencing manager's decisions on who he picks. We've never had, or probably even wanted, fans to have an influence on the manager's selection decisions

I've been going the match for over 30 years and as a supporter and can think of only very, very few situations (Alonso sale, Bowyer purchase) where the fans have strongly tried to influence what the manager does. This was all around keeping a well liked player or not buying someone who many thought didn't fit with the ethos of the club. Klopp picking Karius 1st game of the season is in no way related to this. John asked the question "what can we do if Karius starts that 1st game of the season?' I really want us to buy a GK this summer but the right answer to that Q is get behind the team and the manager. Anything else will hurt the team and the manager (situations like Hodgson and H&G are a million miles removed from a manager picking a player in who made 2 mistakes in his last game).

Thought Rob G was excellent as per usual.

[Fitzy.]

I thought the GK chat on last Monday's pod was a good one but disagreed with parts of Gibbo and Dan Austin's bits. I understand that people don't want Karius starting the season. I thought Gibbo's points about Karius and the difficulties he faced were fair. What I can't get my head around is bit were he was going on about 'the growing part of powerlessness that fans feel towards what happens at football clubs' and how that relates to Karius. I understand that feeling of loss of influence in general but that has very little to do with influencing manager's decisions on who he picks. We've never had, or probably even wanted, fans to have an influence on the manager's selection decisions

I agree - wasn't sure what he meant by this really. I get that fans should be interested in the running of the club and that owners should understand that fans are paying customers so should be considered in how the club operates. However, never really has this translated to the team selection and transfers. In fact, I am delighted that fans are 'powerless' when it comes to influencing a manager's selections. Ever since Klopp arrived fans have been ritually wrong about so many team-related matters.

While the internet is a valuable tool for fan interaction and fan causes, it has also given a platform to a certain type of fan entitlement that has elevated fans' own belief in what they should be able to influence. Team selection is not on the list of what fans should be anywhere near.

On the Karius issue, I guess we should see how it plays out before losing it.

[Ipcress]

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306090-jurgen-klopp-loris-karius-concussion

I'm curious as to Gibbo's take on that.

[Rush 82]

I agree - wasn't sure what he meant by this really. I get that fans should be interested in the running of the club and that owners should understand that fans are paying customers so should be considered in how the club operates. However, never really has this translated to the team selection and transfers. In fact, I am delighted that fans are 'powerless' when it comes to influencing a manager's selections. Ever since Klopp arrived fans have been ritually wrong about so many team-related matters.

While the internet is a valuable tool for fan interaction and fan causes, it has also given a platform to a certain type of fan entitlement that has elevated fans' own belief in what they should be able to influence. Team selection is not on the list of what fans should be anywhere near.

On the Karius issue, I guess we should see how it plays out before losing it.

Hear, hear

[red_Mark1980]

Hear, hear

Agreed. Are we at the point where we start picking and choosing when to trust Klopp and when not To?

Klopp knows Karius. He sees him all the time and I think it's childish to compare it to Hicks and Gillett. It not only belittles what SOS and others did at the time, it's a bit of an insult to Klopp and indeed Karius.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I agree - wasn't sure what he meant by this really. I get that fans should be interested in the running of the club and that owners should understand that fans are paying customers so should be considered in how the club operates. However, never really has this translated to the team selection and transfers. In fact, I am delighted that fans are 'powerless' when it comes to influencing a manager's selections. Ever since Klopp arrived fans have been ritually wrong about so many team-related matters.

While the internet is a valuable tool for fan interaction and fan causes, it has also given a platform to a certain type of fan entitlement that has elevated fans' own belief in what they should be able to influence. Team selection is not on the list of what fans should be anywhere near.

On the Karius issue, I guess we should see how it plays out before losing it.

Agree with all this.
Once we are past issues such as ownership which is clearly not in the interests of the club and fan issues (which team selection isn't) we have to let those best placed to make decisions get on with it. For the first time in ages, I'm confident in the ability of those in charge to make the right decisions.

[lorenzo]

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306090-jurgen-klopp-loris-karius-concussion

I'm curious as to Gibbo's take on that.

Him and his mates are going start a protest I guess.

[nellpatel]

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/306090-jurgen-klopp-loris-karius-concussion

I'm curious as to Gibbo's take on that.

Saw him and Adam Melia chatting about it on Twitter and they're not having any of it. All this chat about what fans should do on the first day of the season seems ridiculous to me. Just support him! BabuYagu's GK stats in the transfer forum highlight that Karius has performed very well in the league, his numbers being on par or sometimes bettering Alisson and Oblak. I would like a new goalkeeper and think we will get one if Migs leaves but in the meantime just support the goalkeeper we have. He has had a terrible time and he needs our support.   

[CraigDS]

All this chat about what fans should do on the first day of the season seems ridiculous to me.

What's all this about?

The transfer window closes come the first game so would be fucking ridiculous to do anything but support him. Which even if it was open would be the right thing to do if Klopp decides that's the way he is going.

[lorenzo]

Saw him and Adam Melia chatting about it on Twitter and they're not having any of it. All this chat about what fans should do on the first day of the season seems ridiculous to me. Just support him! BabuYagu's GK stats in the transfer forum highlight that Karius has performed very well in the league, his numbers being on par or sometimes bettering Alisson and Oblak. I would like a new goalkeeper and think we will get one if Migs leaves but in the meantime just support the goalkeeper we have. He has had a terrible time and he needs our support.

It's funny they are always commenting on idiots on Twitter, well they should have a good look at a few of their colleagues.

Going be really interesting to see if they get called out on throwing the dummy out of the pram.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

It's funny they are always commenting on idiots on Twitter, well they should have a good look at a few of their colleagues.

Going be really interesting to see if they get called out on throwing the dummy out of the pram.

I think this is another example of TAW needing to appreciate that they are in a position of influence.
I know they go on about having no editorial line, but when lads whose profiles are higher because of TAW are using that to influence how fans should behave simply because they disagree with something to do with team selection does not sit right with me.

As Craig said, If he's in goal, support him. Anything else is counterproductive.

[Fitzy.]

Klopp is a politician when it comes to managing human beings. The idea that he’d call out Karius for the CL defeat is ludicrous. He’d have a significant personel issue on his hands in the shape of a tall German for starters.  Let this one play out.

[Djozer]

Saw him and Adam Melia chatting about it on Twitter and they're not having any of it. All this chat about what fans should do on the first day of the season seems ridiculous to me. Just support him! BabuYagu's GK stats in the transfer forum highlight that Karius has performed very well in the league, his numbers being on par or sometimes bettering Alisson and Oblak. I would like a new goalkeeper and think we will get one if Migs leaves but in the meantime just support the goalkeeper we have. He has had a terrible time and he needs our support.

Aye, they seem to have a real downer on Karius. I mean fine, have an opinion and broadcast it but really, if you look at his season up until the final, he actually performed pretty bloody well and the defence, as a unit, was putting up title challenging/winning numbers in terms of goals conceded and clean sheets.

As with many, I still have some lingering doubts about Karius but am happy to give him another chance because he'd really won me over last season and, unless you believe the conspiracy theorists, it's highly likely that his shockers against Real can be directly attributed to a concussion. I'm not going to let one, admittedly awful, game dictate how I view a player, especially when there appears to be significant mitigating circumstances. Also, aren't we supposed to support our players? It's even there on the club crest - I get that's a little bit kumbaya and all, but I think there's a message in there that's worth paying a bit of attention to.

Like I said, we've all got our own opinions on the subject and that's fine, but a lot of TAW guys seem to take any chance they can to have a little dig at Karius. I think it's a real shame because generally they're a great bunch and tend to have a bit more perspective about players, but they actually have enough of a platform that they can influence fans' opinion a bit, and they're just stirring up the toxicity surrounding the subject. It might be inadvertent but if, as seems likely, he is our No.1 next season, then continuous dark mutterings about how they've all decided Karius is shit and they want him gone won't help anyone.

[Nosss]

I feel like The Anfield Wrap might be missing a trick not doing a special surrounding concussion to be honest (I've looked and not found one). Concussion is clearly an issue that isn't understood or delat with properly in football and the Wrap has always struck me as somewhere I can go to hear more about issues like that. Although the first announcement of Karius' test results was arguably the best time to do a podcast on it, Klopp's statement provides another chance that I hope they take.

If people at the Wrap are worried about the crowd's attitude to Karius affecting the team they have the ability to put out a piece on concussion in football that would not only help supporters understand the context of the mistakes made in that final but also maybe alleviate some of the toxicity that contributors are sure is coming Karius' way. It doesn't have to just be about Karius either - concussion is an issue in modern football that is brushed under the rug and ignored while other sports seem to be at least trying to out a spotlight on it, and surely there is more to the story around that would make for some good content.

From reading online there is a massive amount of people who simply brush off the concussion in the final as if its nothing. There does seem to be a sentiment amongst some contributors that the concussion is something unimportant as well... As someone who's experienced a number of concussions, it's quite strange seeing the disparity between what people believe a concussion is and does, and what a concussion actually can be and can do. I certainly have been thrown for a loop by the revelation and have gone from wishing for Karius to be condemned to the A-League to being willing to go into next season with him in between the sticks.

Ignore this if I've missed the podcast where concussions were discussed in depth 

[nellpatel]

I can't see them doing that. The concussion hasn't been discussed in any great depth as far as I am aware. Instead many of them have decided that they hate Karius and want him gone or replaced with an Alisson/Oblak. Even when the concussion story came out there was, by some presenters in particular, a dismissal of it and an attitude of 'Well even so he still threw two into his own net in a Champions League final...' which is dismissive and insensitive to the concerning issue of concussion in the game.

[Alf]

The Karius situation is a no brainer IMO.

Since day 1 Klopp has had a love in with his players, do you bin Karius off when his stock is the lowest and we've got nobody better to bring in.

A lot of people won't have got over losing the final and that's understandable, I felt the same after Athens for a nearly a year.

[realtarragona]

You bin him off because he’s not good enough. Like City did a year ago with theirs.

Fingers crossed we’re still doing everything we can to bring in a replacement. Wouldn’t expect Klopp to say anything else really so don’t think it necessarily means he’s going to stay as number one (could be wishful thinking though).

[jillcwhomever]

It is this idea that bringing in someone like Allison or Oblak, would be straightforward that bugs me to be honest. The fact is buying either of them is still a risk, as you can't know for sure if either of them would settle into English football. It's the hardest of all for a goalkeeper as here, they have to contend with a much more physical game, as the referees allow more. We don't know how either of them would react to that, so that makes it a genuine risk, say nothing of how much money we'd have to spend in the first place. I don't see anything wrong in continuing with Karius, his form in the latter part of the season was fine. He also played fine in the Champion's League final up until the incident with Ramos.

I actually think the game itself needs to look at concussion injuries in far greater detail. I have a hunch it happens far more often then any of us realise.

[Djozer]

You bin him off because he’s not good enough. Like City did a year ago with theirs.

Fingers crossed we’re still doing everything we can to bring in a replacement. Wouldn’t expect Klopp to say anything else really so don’t think it necessarily means he’s going to stay as number one (could be wishful thinking though).

You sure he's not good enough though? I'm not. City binned their off because they had a.mixture of Bravo and Caballero in goal and conceded 39 league goals. Karius last season conceded 14 in 19 - if you have the rate over a season you concede 28, which is a title challenging/winning number. Not saying he was the main reason for that, but he was a part of a defensive unit that perfomed far better than any any media narrative would have us believe. Why change that just 'cos of one game where he suffered a concussion?

During that period he really turned round my opinion of him - in his prior appearances I saw a dodgy keeper who had the occasional goodish game, but January onwards last year he did everything asked of him, made a few brilliant saves, had a couple of dodgy moments sure but no more than almost other keepers and in general looked decent to excellent, I thought. During that period nothing I saw screamed "him him off," right up until the final and we all know what happened there. If that January to CL final is the real Karius, as opposed to Settling in to a New Club with a Broken Hand Karius or Concussed Karius - and I tend to think it probably is - then I'm fine with him staying no.1.

[realtarragona]

I’m pretty sure yeah. I don’t think he was as good as people made out last season and was fortunate not to cost us on a few occasions. I’m certainly not prepared to gamble a season on him anyway. Also, putting aside his ability for a moment, he’s going to need to be unbelievably mentally strong to overcome this. The first mistake he makes and people will go mental (I’d say the crowd would turn on him but that would suggest they’ll be behind him which they won’t). Obviously if he stays number 1 then fair enough hope he does well and proves me wrong but I just think it’s the wrong decision to keep him there after that final. Maybe it was all down to concussion but I’ve seen him make that same error for their 3rd before (Roma) which doesn’t help. At the very least we’ll need to bring in a keeper to challenge him because if it does all go wrong, what then?

[jillcwhomever]

I’m pretty sure yeah. I don’t think he was as good as people made out last season and was fortunate not to cost us on a few occasions. I’m certainly not prepared to gamble a season on him anyway. Also, putting aside his ability for a moment, he’s going to need to be unbelievably mentally strong to overcome this. The first mistake he makes and people will go mental (I’d say the crowd would turn on him but that would suggest they’ll be behind him which they won’t). Obviously if he stays number 1 then fair enough hope he does well and proves me wrong but I just think it’s the wrong decision to keep him there after that final. Maybe it was all down to concussion but I’ve seen him make that same error for their 3rd before (Roma) which doesn’t help. At the very least we’ll need to bring in a keeper to challenge him because if it does all go wrong, what then?

So our turnaround in defensive performances was due to everyone apart from Karius then? As for gambling a season, you do you realise that buying a goalkeeper for 80 million quid, is also a gamble? There is no guarantee that either goalkeeper we are being linked with could be a definite success. Both are actually huge risks considering neither have played in England before, a place which allows a more physical style of football. But you think that is a more worthy gamble then continuing with a young goalkeeper whose statistics were as good as most in the latter part of the season. It's at times like this I am relieved that we have a fine manager who is much better placed to decide, then any of us are.

[realtarragona]

You do realise you’re quite a condescending bellend? I just have a different opinion than you and didn’t say he had zero improvement last season. But sound, I hope you’re right and I’m conpletely wrong (presuming be stays).

[thekitkatshuffler]

Loved Ben Johno's World Cup Show.  Can we have the same show for the Premier League next season?

[Dench57]

Loved Ben Johno's World Cup Show.  Can we have the same show for the Premier League next season?

Wrong thread mate, this is the Karius thread








_{as are 90% of other threads}

[jillcwhomever]

You do realise you’re quite a condescending bellend? I just have a different opinion than you and didn’t say he had zero improvement last season. But sound, I hope you’re right and I’m conpletely wrong (presuming be stays).

Wow, name calling aren't you a big boy.    But to try and be constructive for a minute, you were the one who decided Karius must be binned in your original post. Okay, you think his contribution has been overexaggerated, how do you prove that, one way or another? We all know bringing in VDV brought a real stability to the defence overall, but one player cannot be the whole answer, it is the way all those players defended together, which makes the most compelling difference. Which is why I ended this on Klopp being in the best possible position to make the judgement, not because I think you're wrong and I'm right.

[Djozer]

I’m pretty sure yeah. I don’t think he was as good as people made out last season and was fortunate not to cost us on a few occasions. I’m certainly not prepared to gamble a season on him anyway. Also, putting aside his ability for a moment, he’s going to need to be unbelievably mentally strong to overcome this. The first mistake he makes and people will go mental (I’d say the crowd would turn on him but that would suggest they’ll be behind him which they won’t). Obviously if he stays number 1 then fair enough hope he does well and proves me wrong but I just think it’s the wrong decision to keep him there after that final. Maybe it was all down to concussion but I’ve seen him make that same error for their 3rd before (Roma) which doesn’t help. At the very least we’ll need to bring in a keeper to challenge him because if it does all go wrong, what then?

Fair enough mate, it doesn't look like you're for turning. I'd just like to point out though, that that "error" against Roma wasn't anywhere near as bad as it was made out to be - the ball moved upwards in the air in the last couple of yards (see vid below) so I think he actually did ok to keep it out, even if I don't think it's an "amazing save" like the video title says...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/4f8Mh9eJpv4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/4f8Mh9eJpv4</a>

Think it's a fairly frequent occurrence these days with the balls being so light, and we see a fair few - it's not like it's something specific to Karius. Muslera did one just last night, for instance. England's World Class Hero Jordan Pickford the Wonderboy did it this year, a few others have too. Even very good keepers do it - seen Reina do it in the past, pretty sure Casillas has done it a couple of times from what I remember.

I'd like to believe that people will rally behind him but think you're probably right and agree that many in the crowd will go mental when he fucks up (and he will sometime, because every player does). Think it's a shame myself, but that sort of behaviour has always been there to some extent, at least in my lifetime - haven't been to Anfield for a good few years but the last time I went some dickhead behind me was slagging Lucas off literally every time he touched the ball for the entire game. Some people just love to have a go. Apparently we used to be known as one of the best, most knowledgeable, most supportive crowds around. No idea if that was ever actually true or just more of a rose tinted view, but we certainly don't seem to be that nowadays.

[Iska]

How is a goalie supposed to deal with one of those shots?  I suppose by getting his whole body behind the original trajectory and hope any late movement isn't lateral - but if it *is* late and lateral, like Muslera got last night (that ball changed trajectory twice), I'm not sure what more a keeper can do?

[thekitkatshuffler]

Wrong thread mate, this is the Karius thread

I have nothing positive to say about Karius and I thought the Radio City Show was spot on about him and his stupid video and his stupid drone and his stupid management team, so I thought I'd try to bring things back around from talking about the lad. 

[Byrnee]

Some constructive criticism - you spent a load of an episode talking about a video Karius put online and didn’t once explain what the video was. I think its important that if you are referencing something from social media or in the scouse zeitgiest that everyone in the office understands, its worth at the very least recapping what on earth you are talking about rather than assuming we all know as listeners what is being referenced. This happens a few times (talking about something on social media for example) and it takes what should be an inclusive podcast into the realms of overhearing a bunch of mates in the pub having a great laugh but without context.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

[Jookie]

I feel like The Anfield Wrap might be missing a trick not doing a special surrounding concussion to be honest (I've looked and not found one). Concussion is clearly an issue that isn't understood or delat with properly in football and the Wrap has always struck me as somewhere I can go to hear more about issues like that. Although the first announcement of Karius' test results was arguably the best time to do a podcast on it, Klopp's statement provides another chance that I hope they take.

I suggested this to Gibbo and Adam Melia on Twitter when Adam Meila suggested Klopp's statement on Karius was 'woeful'.

TAW have not been afraid to tackle big issues. Concussion and it's impact in sport is a big issue that goes beyond Liverpool. However, we have a very high profile case that has potentially hindered us. They should get a Neuroscientist on the show who has in-depth knowledge of concussion to talk through the potential impact of concussion on cognitive function. It's strange that TAW haven't done the if I'm honest.

I personally wouldn't say that a show on concussion shouldn't be made to exonerate or excuse Karius. It's everyone's prerogative to think whether Karius is good enough to start for Liverpool or not. I think we can improve on him but he's not as bad or as good as some are making out. I just think the concussion things can't be disregarded for that 1 game. Doesn't matter how important the game was, it is a potential mitigating circumstance backed up by scientific evidence. Some contributors like Adam, Gibbo and Dan Austin seem like they are completely disregarding this potential outcome despite the medical evidence that has been provided by experts. Feels a bit 'Brexit' type of opinion to me. Made their minds up on something and aren't listening to what the 'experts' are saying. Which is quite ironic given some of their comments on Brexit.
 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

If Karius genuinely did have concussion then he should consider sueing our medical team for failing to diagnose it. It shouldn't take five days in a different country, prompted by a complete outsider (Beckenbauer) in LFC terms, for that to take place.

I don't think it changes anything personally. He's shown himself to be extremely suspect in high-pressure situations on too many occasions. Those who don't consider him to be good enough aren't going to permanently cut him slack because of a knock to the head.

[Ipcress]

If Karius genuinely did have concussion then he should consider sueing our medical team for failing to diagnose it. It shouldn't take five days in a different country, prompted by a complete outsider (Beckenbauer) in LFC terms, for that to take place.

I don't think it changes anything personally. He's shown himself to be extremely suspect in high-pressure situations on too many occasions. Those who don't consider him to be good enough aren't going to permanently cut him slack because of a knock to the head.

Why are you saying if? The experts have said he had it, Klopp says he had it (26 out of 30 indicators still present 5 days later).

Do you have any evidence or expert opinion to the contrary?