Author Topic: PL: Man U 2 vs 4 Liverpool ‘10 Fern ‘34 Jota ‘45+3 ‘48 Si Senor ‘68 Rash ‘90 Mo  (Read 41649 times)

Online Red_Rich

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Smashed 4 past the fuckers, too.


Great isn't it.

I can remember us smashing 4 past them on 3 occasions now...  1990, 2009 and yesterday (two at OT as well!)

I can only think of one time they've scored 4 against us (mid-noughties?)

United used to win titles on easy street, time for us to take over that real estate

Offline 12C

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I was just thinking of something similar that happened to us in the early 90s. We were given a penalty in front of the Stretford End, and the referee put the ball on the spot. Michael Thomas got into position to take the penalty but when he started his run up, the ref stopped him. Suddenly United had a free kick in their only area.

Running battles outside back to Warwick Road where our lot were taking it out on everyone. But their fans knew how we felt.

A few years earlier down at the Annie Road, Barnes was hacked down, no penaly. But the ref knew he'd made a mistake that he wasn't going to get away with. So five minutes later we get a penalty after Barnes gets blown over by a gush of wind.

The point is, this type of thing has always happened when we've played them, sometimes it goes against us and sometimes against them. And VAR hasn't done anything to change that, it has made football very boring though.

Howard Webb giving a penalty when Gerrard exhaled on a Manc?
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Great isn't it.

I can remember us smashing 4 past them on 3 occasions now...  1990, 2009 and yesterday (two at OT as well!)

I can only think of one time they've scored 4 against us (mid-noughties?)

My Uncle often tells me about a time in the late 60s when they smashed four past us. Bobby Charlton smashed one in from 20 yards, a rare sight back then. By all accounts he was given a standing ovation by the whole ground. Fast forward ten years and were throwing golf ball with nails hammered through them at each other.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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These were all given against us. Yet people still insist that we are tin hat wearing conspiracy theorists







Yup, none of those were penalties
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline Billy Elliot

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Howard Webb giving a penalty when Gerrard exhaled on a Manc?

Exactly, and if it happened now they'd probably still get the penalty after looking at VAR for ten minutes. But sometimes it goes against them. 1983 League Cup Final and Grobbelar takes out McQueen close to the half way line with a two footed tackle. A red card any day of the week, even back then, except when we're playing United cos shit happens and ref's get things wrong.

No conspiracy, just the way it's always been.
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Offline John C

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So it was a foul because he followed through, except it's not really a foul because he took the ball first. So it's a foul that shouldn't really be a foul.

'as a poster' :) I'm not being snide Billy, but you're all over the place with that entire post mate.

Offline El Lobo

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I’ve made this point as infinitum but the fact that they allow their own biases to affect their performances IS EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE SHIT AT THEIR JOBS.

There are several groups which think that there is a clear unified favouritism of Manchester United, many of those people (including numerous on this forum) have thrown around various explanations for this, last season it was to get them into Europe as pre-lockdown that was unlikely (for the CL at least), this season it was because they ‘wanted a title race’ (which didn’t really happen as it was done in terms of a competition by March) - thinking that groups of people have combined together to dishonestly influence something to achieve a certain (favourable for them) result is a conspiracy theory.

In terms of your point about referees being subject to bias etc etc, i totally agree and a quick search of my posts will show I’ve being banging that drum for months. The good referees are less influenced by those points and they just do the job.

People with an enormous emotional investment in a football match and (in most cases) a complete hatred of Man United posting on a footy forum claiming that United are beneficiaries of favourable decisions isn’t evidence of anything other than the tribalistic nature of football fans.

I’ll leave it at that as we won’t agree.

Well if it is a conspiraceh it’s a pretty shit one considering they’ve won nothing for 3 years and have been in and out of the top four in that time.

The lizard people or whoever it is that’s paid for this conspiraceh should be asking for their money back as it clearly hasn’t worked.

The bit in bold really is just laughable. An admittance that referees are biased and apparently that doesn’t suggest dodgy referees but....just being shit at their jobs. I’d love that as a defence in court. Maybe see if we can get some people who have committed fraud off because getting caught shows they’re shit at their job, and not that they’ve committed fraud!

Another couple of posts there over the last six months or so where you’ve gone quite hard at people suggesting dodgy refereeing.

And you seem to have this constant idea of ‘well they can’t be biased towards United can they?’ and then trotting out some odd reasoning. ‘They didn’t mount a title challenge’. ‘Why did he give the penalty initially?’. As if a referee who is biased towards a certain side needs to be more blatant for it to be true. Bit like that bloke who got caught cheating on who wants to be a millionaire. Just coughing. If he was really cheating surely his plant would have just shouted the right answers at him. If you somehow managed to become a referee and somehow managed to get a Liverpool game by saying you’ve always been a Southport fan, I can’t imagine you’d go big and send four opposition players off and award Liverpool seven penalties the first time you refereed us?

At this point, it’s hard to know what more you need. Short of some fake sting operation, you’ll always have the same answer. They’re just rubbish. Move along, nothing to see here. No ‘conspiraceh’. No bias towards a specific team. Just shit at their jobs and inconsistent. There’s mounting evidence showing certain teams being refereed differently to others. You’ve been given the stats for touches in the opposition area and how many penalties that has led to, but that’s just irrelevant information. You need some ‘how many touches have resulted in a player going down’ metric, which I’m sure you know doesn’t exist. And more to the point, you don’t even need metrics! You don’t need stats, of which there are plenty. You can literally just use your eyes at how Salah and Mane are treated by referees.

People have piled on Andy for years, but VAR has provided a system which gives the referees on hiding place anymore. As shit as it may be. And again there is too much evidence over the last couple of seasons to write this off as ‘oh they’ve just rubbish at their jobs’
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Online Ghost Town

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I’ve made this point as infinitum but the fact that they allow their own biases to affect their performances IS EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE SHIT AT THEIR JOBS.
And the fact that they let their biases affect them, often consistently, and the fact that the current refereeing set up and leadership allows this, without scrutiny and accountability, is really all anyone is claiming, because absent hand-written, signed confessions, that's all we can know. And it's a very big thing, which you seem to be trying to dial down. 'Oh it's only that they are shit at their jobs'. As if that weren't monumentally unacceptable.

You are probably never going to get the 'evidence' that you, and some others, seem to require. Maybe it's "just" shitness, maybe there is more to it for certain individuals. Who knows? The outcome is the same and that's the important bit, not whether you can absolve yourself that you didn't agree with a 'conspiracy theory'.

And one should not let oneself get too distracted by the way people express their anger and frustration. For example:

Quote
There are several groups which think that there is a clear unified favouritism of Manchester United, many of those people (including numerous on this forum) have thrown around various explanations for this, last season it was to get them into Europe as pre-lockdown that was unlikely (for the CL at least), this season it was because they ‘wanted a title race’ (which didn’t really happen as it was done in terms of a competition by March) - thinking that groups of people have combined together to dishonestly influence something to achieve a certain (favourable for them) result is a conspiracy theory.
All sorts of suggestions get thrown about as people try and understand why very bad refereeing is allowed to go on. No one is really making specific and detailed claims about an organised conspiracy, and therefore the 'conspiracy thoerist' putdown is unwarranted and is usually used to try and shut down the conversation because some people find it awkward, or they are afraid 'other fans' will take the piss and so on. 

And while we're on the subject it's not true that groups have to combine together to have pretty significant affects. There only needs to be a general notion in the air - for example if it was voiced early on by, say the broadcasters, in one of the interminable meetings, that they really hope there's a more equal title race this year and Liverpool don't run away with it again, then it wouldn't need anything more for, for example, an individual ref to think that he agreea and to do what he can to make this happen. No collusion needed, though of course people, even refs, talk to each other and we all influence each other. Quite noticeable affects can occur by accident, so to speak, (or maybe by seeding an idea if you take a propaganda-led view of the media - are we allowed to do that?). The world, in other words is complex. Looking the other way and insisting there's no-one behind the curtain rarely leads to truths. This applies as much to the trivialities as it does to the biggest and most urgent areas of life because, I repeat, people are people.

Quote
In terms of your point about referees being subject to bias etc etc, i totally agree and a quick search of my posts will show I’ve being banging that drum for months. The good referees are less influenced by those points and they just do the job.
The point here, though, is that the refereeing structure currently in place does not even acknowledge this possibility or have protocols in place to ensure proper scrutiny, constant accountability, training and re-training and so on. Instead it's mostly a bunch of guys in a private organisation allowed to do what they want and covering each others' backs, while earning telephone number salaries, while a strangely complaisant media looks on. This would be unacceptable even if there were no noticeable consequences, and is well worth shouting about over and over again, even if yer mates do take the piss.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 12:21:03 am by Ghost Town »
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Offline PaddyPaned

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Yup, none of those were penalties

And the earth is flat, the moon landings never happened, the Soviets, LBJ, the Mafia and the Masons killed JFK, Philip killed Diana, 9/11 was an inside job, Covid-19 is a George Soros coup. This conspiracy nonsense is driving me insane - we are where we are in the league because of poor performance. Stupidly back luck with injury, clearly, but this IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST US. It is really bad luck, nothing more, nothing less.

Offline RedSince86

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Poor excuse. If Oliver was unavailable, they should have picked another non-Manchester referee. We trashed the bastards, but that still doesn't change the fact that we were denied 2 penalties ...
Manchester based Taylor and Tierney could have done the Arsenal Chelsea match and we got the officials from that game for Thursday.

It was Mike Riley's doing, he knew exactly what he wanted to happen, sadly for him we won the game.
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Offline El Lobo

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I’ve got a lovely sarcy comment about referees obviously not mixing outside of football ready, but can’t find a photo of Atkinson, Friend, Coote and Marriner with some young Thai women that isn’t from a rag so you’ll have to imagine that

Oh fuck and we haven’t even talked about Mike Riley, the holy grail of ‘just shit at his job, not biased at all’ referees
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline RedSince86

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I’ve got a lovely sarcy comment about referees obviously not mixing outside of football ready, but can’t find a photo of Atkinson, Friend, Coote and Marriner with some young Thai women that isn’t from a rag so you’ll have to imagine that

Oh fuck and we haven’t even talked about Mike Riley, the holy grail of ‘just shit at his job, not biased at all’ referees
"Since its purchase by the sheikh of Abu Dhabi, Manchester City has managed to cheat its way into the top echelon of European football and create a global, immensely profitable football empire, ignoring rules along the way. The club's newfound glory is rooted in lies."

Online Ghost Town

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And the earth is flat, the moon landings never happened, the Soviets, LBJ, the Mafia and the Masons killed JFK, Philip killed Diana, 9/11 was an inside job, Covid-19 is a George Soros coup. This conspiracy nonsense is driving me insane - we are where we are in the league because of poor performance. Stupidly back luck with injury, clearly, but this IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST US. It is really bad luck, nothing more, nothing less.
Lol, just think about what you are writing for a moment. You are literally inventing a 'conspiracy theory' in order to deny it (I won't say 'refute' it because there's rarely any attempt that that) and absolve yourself. In many ways this is far more interesting a psychological insight than the other
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Offline Billy Elliot

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'as a poster' :) I'm not being snide Billy, but you're all over the place with that entire post mate.

I'm all over the place trying to understand rules that used to be simple. And I'm also over the place cos I've had a bit of vodka.

But back in the day - if you took the ball first, it was never a foul. Simple.

But now it's a foul when you take the ball but follow through. Shit rule, it used to be a contact sport, but a rule never the less.

Except it's not the rule when we play United, because he clearly took the ball and followed through but no penalty.

Without VAR we'd have got the penalty because at full speed he seemed to take the leg before the ball, or maybe we wouldn't because ref's have always got it wrong when we've played them. So what difference does VAR make? Rhetorical question, of course.
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Offline Jm55

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The bit in bold really is just laughable. An admittance that referees are biased and apparently that doesn’t suggest dodgy referees but....just being shit at their jobs. I’d love that as a defence in court. Maybe see if we can get some people who have committed fraud off because getting caught shows they’re shit at their job, and not that they’ve committed fraud!

Another couple of posts there over the last six months or so where you’ve gone quite hard at people suggesting dodgy refereeing.

And you seem to have this constant idea of ‘well they can’t be biased towards United can they?’ and then trotting out some odd reasoning. ‘They didn’t mount a title challenge’. ‘Why did he give the penalty initially?’. As if a referee who is biased towards a certain side needs to be more blatant for it to be true. Bit like that bloke who got caught cheating on who wants to be a millionaire. Just coughing. If he was really cheating surely his plant would have just shouted the right answers at him. If you somehow managed to become a referee and somehow managed to get a Liverpool game by saying you’ve always been a Southport fan, I can’t imagine you’d go big and send four opposition players off and award Liverpool seven penalties the first time you refereed us?

At this point, it’s hard to know what more you need. Short of some fake sting operation, you’ll always have the same answer. They’re just rubbish. Move along, nothing to see here. No ‘conspiraceh’. No bias towards a specific team. Just shit at their jobs and inconsistent. There’s mounting evidence showing certain teams being refereed differently to others. You’ve been given the stats for touches in the opposition area and how many penalties that has led to, but that’s just irrelevant information. You need some ‘how many touches have resulted in a player going down’ metric, which I’m sure you know doesn’t exist. And more to the point, you don’t even need metrics! You don’t need stats, of which there are plenty. You can literally just use your eyes at how Salah and Mane are treated by referees.

People have piled on Andy for years, but VAR has provided a system which gives the referees on hiding place anymore. As shit as it may be. And again there is too much evidence over the last couple of seasons to write this off as ‘oh they’ve just rubbish at their jobs’

The thing is I stand by those posts though?

I seem to remember you making a post (I think) after the Fulham away game, I may be wrong about that but the post was made nevertheless where you claimed that a conversation had happened where it wa s decided that there couldn’t be another runaway title winner and that perhaps explained how we’d been on the receiving end of numerous bad decisions. That’s what I’m disputing, I just don’t think that has happened.

I have said, numerous times, I am sure SOME refs either consciously or subconsciously favour man United.

I think you get me wrong in my attitude towards this, I was at old Trafford for that ridiculous Berbatov penalty I KNOW they get decisions. What frustrates at times is the constant agenda from some people that everything is part of some agenda to fuck us over, which it clearly isn’t.

Your statistics for touches in the box prove very little. They certainly do little to combat the point I made that prior to Solskjaer a arrival they were getting roughly a quarter of their current penalties per season. Why have the reds suddenly started favouring them when Solkjaer got the job?

Our players rarely go down in the area, theirs go down like feathers, tjag is one very plausible explanation as to why it hey could have a large amount of penalties compared to us. It’s only an offer of an answer, of course you don’t have to accept it but it is nevetheless a valid point.

Offline Black Bull Nova

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And the earth is flat, the moon landings never happened, the Soviets, LBJ, the Mafia and the Masons killed JFK, Philip killed Diana, 9/11 was an inside job, Covid-19 is a George Soros coup. This conspiracy nonsense is driving me insane - we are where we are in the league because of poor performance. Stupidly back luck with injury, clearly, but this IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST US. It is really bad luck, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not a believer in conspiracy either, just commenting on my opinion of those incidents, in line with what I had already said about Bailly's tackle not being a penalty either. As someone who watched Rugby League, I have a higher threshold of what constitutes what in effect is a 75% chance of a goal based on what it probably a situation of around a 1% chance.

I think it's one of the things that helped ruined football and referees (who I don't rate) struggle with it as a consequence. I just think Liverpool, for many years, have tended on the more honest side and suffer as a consequence. Teams like United and others see penalties as a means to an end.
aarf, aarf, aarf.

Offline El Lobo

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The thing is I stand by those posts though?

I seem to remember you making a post (I think) after the Fulham away game, I may be wrong about that but the post was made nevertheless where you claimed that a conversation had happened where it wa s decided that there couldn’t be another runaway title winner and that perhaps explained how we’d been on the receiving end of numerous bad decisions. That’s what I’m disputing, I just don’t think that has happened.

I have said, numerous times, I am sure SOME refs either consciously or subconsciously favour man United.

I think you get me wrong in my attitude towards this, I was at old Trafford for that ridiculous Berbatov penalty I KNOW they get decisions. What frustrates at times is the constant agenda from some people that everything is part of some agenda to fuck us over, which it clearly isn’t.

Your statistics for touches in the box prove very little. They certainly do little to combat the point I made that prior to Solskjaer a arrival they were getting roughly a quarter of their current penalties per season. Why have the reds suddenly started favouring them when Solkjaer got the job?

Our players rarely go down in the area, theirs go down like feathers, tjag is one very plausible explanation as to why it hey could have a large amount of penalties compared to us. It’s only an offer of an answer, of course you don’t have to accept it but it is nevetheless a valid point.

Well no, not claimed. More my suspicion, which I’m pretty happy with to be honest. That Liverpool running away with the league title again wasn’t great for the league. And the thing is, there’s again things people have said in the past that don’t make it particularly outrageous. The Chief Exec of the PL once said it was bad for the PL if United weren’t in the CL. And he said that officially. You seem to have this image of all the referees and the PL and broadcasters sat around a big table plotting their schemes. That’s really not what people think. These people mix outside of football, much of what they say is in private. Do I think conversations have been had at some point around that subject which has then influenced how we’ve been refereed this season? Sure. And nothing I’ve seen all season would make me think I’m wrong on that, because I don’t buy the ‘they’re just rubbish at their job’ shtick. We’ve had numerous decisions go to VAR this season, got catastrophically wrong, and shrugged off with no explanation. When you’re getting close to double figures for that sort of thing, often by the same officials, you can’t just brush it off as people being bad but inconsistent at their jobs.

The statistics for touches in the penalty area don’t need to prove anything to be honest. They are what they are. What they show is that an attacking team like us, who spend more time in the opposition area, get far fewer penalties than a side like United. I can then use my eyes and match that up with what I’ve seen with us and United. You shouldn’t need a stat to literally write the whole story for you, and in this instance there really aren’t any that will do that. For example you can have the stats on how often a player is fouled. Pretty meaningless in isolation, but Mo Salah is nowhere near the top. Match it up with how many touches a player has in the opposition penalty area. Top is Mo Salah. Match that up with what you actually see with Mo, and it’s pretty obvious that referees seem actively keen to avoid giving fouls on him. But for you, that’s just people being bad at their job.

And why did they start favoring them under Solskjaer...? I think we all know that’s not the case. But again can refer you back to the previous comment from Scudamore about United being out of the CL? The continued influence of the govan tramp? Media influence?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Bobinhood

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we never get any penalty's because our screaming's piss poor.

Contrast our level with this clip of Allison trying to deal with the injured Fernandes cluttering up his box and its clear we need to up our game substantially.

https://youtu.be/Xe2OaOrvmOU?t=39
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Offline newterp

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Speaking of Bruno - did we ever figure out why he went down screaming untouched before Bobby’s header?

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Love to be on the same pitch as him, it would be a game he would never forget.

Yes. He’d never forget the day a competition winner slowly chased him around the pitch only to get absolutely nowhere near him for 90 minutes.

In my uni years, I played with and against ex-Serie C player, and England ladies international and a lad who played for the Japanese 5-a-side team. I have only ever played at Sunday league level, but none of us (even the Uni first team lads) could get anywhere near any of them apart from the woman but only because she was so much slower than the men. Technically she was on another planet. 

It was a good laugh though. Fun to see up close how much better proper players are. I can only imagine how badly a PL player would have run us all ragged.
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Yes. He’d never forget the day a competition winner slowly chased him around the pitch only to get absolutely nowhere near him for 90 minutes.

In my uni years, I played with and against ex-Serie C player, and England ladies international and a lad who played for the Japanese 5-a-side team. I have only ever played at Sunday league level, but none of us (even the Uni first team lads) could get anywhere near any of them apart from the woman but only because she was so much slower than the men. Technically she was on another planet. 

It was a good laugh though. Fun to see up close how much better proper players are. I can only imagine how badly a PL player would have run us all ragged.
Whilst what you say is true and the crappest of pro players are light years ahead of non pros, I don't think that's what mike meant; I don't think he was planning on beating Fernandes with his skill, pace and technique. I suspect a different kind of beating was in mind...
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Offline farawayred

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Speaking of Bruno - did we ever figure out why he went down screaming untouched before Bobby’s header?
So that we can get the foul from which Bobby scored. Bruno is a secret Klopp admirer. That's one theory. The other- he's a c*nt.
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Offline Persephone

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Speaking of Bruno - did we ever figure out why he went down screaming untouched before Bobby’s header?
Shit house tactics, it's a great way to make sure the break away doesn't happen. He's so used to refs giving it for every little touch on him.

Oh and he's a little rat cheater.
I’ve plenty links to the clubs playing and backroom staff as many on here know thank you very much. Fair enough, I admire your optimism. But you’re absolute ostriches if you think this squad, even with 2 or 3 new, “cut price” players with potential get us anywhere close

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am pretty amazed they let bobby's goal in the first half stand as well

the "foul" and pressure on pogba was obvious. should have gone to var that. ;D

bobby obviously didn't get the message that they aren't suppose to breathe near any of the man u players lest they all going to fall like the pile of shit that they are.


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I mean this season the Mancs got a penalty after the final whistle ffs. That would never happen to another PL team. Theres an establishment in this country and they are obviously part of it. We on the other hand have been pissing off said establishment for decades.

To paraphrase George Carlin it’s a big club... and we aint in it.

Offline Penfold78

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Really disappointed with the state of some RAWK threads to be honest. I missed the game so came on here to get some good analysis on how we played but all I’m reading is tabloid stuff about dodgy refs and what Gary Neville says. Can we up our game a little? RAWK’s strength lies in its great insights, opinion and analysis of our players, tactics and performances.

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Really disappointed with the state of some RAWK threads to be honest. I missed the game so came on here to get some good analysis on how we played but all I’m reading is tabloid stuff about dodgy refs and what Gary Neville says. Can we up our game a little? RAWK’s strength lies in its great insights, opinion and analysis of our players, tactics and performances.
Why not watch the full game - links in the Audio/Video Thread - and then get the ball rolling yourself?

I missed the game as well, so I went and watched it back. Well worth a watch.
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Offline mickeydocs

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Really disappointed with the state of some RAWK threads to be honest. I missed the game so came on here to get some good analysis on how we played but all I’m reading is tabloid stuff about dodgy refs and what Gary Neville says. Can we up our game a little? RAWK’s strength lies in its great insights, opinion and analysis of our players, tactics and performances.

Tabloids and misogynist comments. We won. We won well. Yes United got more than their share of decisions that could have altered the game. However we seem to be finding some form. Bobby scored two and looked like Bobby. Trent is about to go to the next level. So much to be positive about.
It’s easy to believe when it’s going well.

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Really disappointed with the state of some RAWK threads to be honest. I missed the game so came on here to get some good analysis on how we played but all I’m reading is tabloid stuff about dodgy refs and what Gary Neville says. Can we up our game a little? RAWK’s strength lies in its great insights, opinion and analysis of our players, tactics and performances.

I do think it’s slightly funny that after such a magnificent win there’s so much focus in the negatives, but we’ve been robbed by dodgy decisions so many times this season that I guess people are conditioned to it now.

My take on the game was that Trent was the pivot - everything good seemed to go through him, so much creativity and skill. Such a joy to watch. Also really impressed by Jota - it was his constant harrying, never allowing the United defence a moment’s peace that really set the tone of the game (Jota, Robbo and Trent must have covered a huge distance between them). Thiago and Wijnaldum ensured we had total control of midfield for most of the game, and on the rare occasions they did threaten us, Fabinho was there to break them up. Philips made a howler for their first goal and a couple of other lesser errors, but he was magnificent apart from that, and made some superb blocks and tackles and headers, and it was his determination and some real skill that set up our first goal. Williams was also more solid at the back than many had feared he would be. But we were also helped by United getting their tactics all wrong and having no apparent shape to their team - they were headless chickens, and all Solskjaer could do was watch in a bewildered state. Bringing on Greenwood seemed to give them a bit more focus but it wasn’t long before we reasserted our dominance. Basically, it was our best performance at OT for some years, and the result was thoroughly deserved.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 08:03:57 am by smutchin »

Offline Penfold78

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I do think it’s slightly funny that after such a magnificent win there’s so much focus in the negatives, but we’ve been robbed by dodgy decisions so many times this season that I guess people are conditioned to it now.

My take on the game was that Trent was the pivot - everything good seemed to go through him, so much creativity and skill. Such a joy to watch. Also really impressed by Jota - it was his constant harrying, never allowing the United defence a moment’s peace that really set the tone of the game. Thiago and Wijnaldum ensured we had total control of midfield for most of the game, and on the rare occasions they did threaten us, Fabinho was there to break them up. Philips made a howler for their first goal and a couple of other lesser errors, but he was magnificent apart from that, and made some superb blocks and tackles and headers, and it was his determination and some real skill that set up our first goal. Williams was also more solid at the back than many had feared he would be. But we were also helped by United getting their tactics all wrong and having no apparent shape to their team - they were headless chickens, and all Solskjaer could do was watch in a bewildered state. Bringing on Greenwood seemed to give them a bit more focus but it wasn’t long before we reasserted our dominance. Basically, it was our best performance at OT for some years, and the result was thoroughly deserved.

 :D

Thanks.  Sounds a bit like RB Leipzig where their tactics played straight into our hands. Great on the one hand hand but perhaps over inflates our performance? What made Thiago and Gini so effective? Good performances or poor opposition?

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Trent was certainly the spiritual and fiery heart of the game. Coming full circle from his first 'thrown-into-the-deep-end' introduction all those years ago as a gawky teenager, where he did quite well and showed great promise, to coming back having grown into an absolute boss. He outplayed every one of their mob and had an aura about him all game.

He and Thiago were everywhere, running the game, owning the pitch, showing the goblin king's men how it's done.
 
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:D

Thanks.  Sounds a bit like RB Leipzig where their tactics played straight into our hands.

No I don't think it was the same. It wasn't their tactics playing into our hands it was our players not letting them have a moment to compse themselves. And we played with a freer, 'shackles-off' energy and drive. We trusted the ball and the pass and the run in a way we seem not to have done much of in recent months, and it came off for us. We played with a confidence and a determination, and didn't let the early setback get us down, as we maybe have done at times this season.

This was a game of character.

Quote
Great on the one hand hand but perhaps over inflates our performance?
They're shite so any half decent performance will nobble them.

Quote
What made Thiago and Gini so effective? Good performances or poor opposition?
Both
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Offline free_at_last

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Taylor in bottling big decisions shocker, the McTominay one was a fucking joke. He did at least not fall for United’s constant hitting the deck everytime they got touched which made a pleasant change, if a ref wants to fuck us then blowing everytime we touch an opposition player will cause more damage than the odd VAR debacle as it completely blunts us, we went through a phase of it happening weekly in January/February but it seems to have improved now.
Taylor has been doing it to us for years(constantly blowing up for soft fouls) and he also did it last night.
 Whether a ref is actually biased or not is always debatable. What I can’t understand is how he is allowed to ref our games given his manu background. A scouser or even Mike Dean wouldn’t be allowed to ref a Liverpool-manu game. Are the premier league so ignorant of the real(tribal) world that they can’t understand that allowing it devalues their competition and their product - surely we should be allowed to watch the football match without having one eye on the referee because of his manc background.

Offline Jm55

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Well no, not claimed. More my suspicion, which I’m pretty happy with to be honest. That Liverpool running away with the league title again wasn’t great for the league. And the thing is, there’s again things people have said in the past that don’t make it particularly outrageous. The Chief Exec of the PL once said it was bad for the PL if United weren’t in the CL. And he said that officially. You seem to have this image of all the referees and the PL and broadcasters sat around a big table plotting their schemes. That’s really not what people think. These people mix outside of football, much of what they say is in private. Do I think conversations have been had at some point around that subject which has then influenced how we’ve been refereed this season? Sure. And nothing I’ve seen all season would make me think I’m wrong on that, because I don’t buy the ‘they’re just rubbish at their job’ shtick. We’ve had numerous decisions go to VAR this season, got catastrophically wrong, and shrugged off with no explanation. When you’re getting close to double figures for that sort of thing, often by the same officials, you can’t just brush it off as people being bad but inconsistent at their jobs.

The statistics for touches in the penalty area don’t need to prove anything to be honest. They are what they are. What they show is that an attacking team like us, who spend more time in the opposition area, get far fewer penalties than a side like United. I can then use my eyes and match that up with what I’ve seen with us and United. You shouldn’t need a stat to literally write the whole story for you, and in this instance there really aren’t any that will do that. For example you can have the stats on how often a player is fouled. Pretty meaningless in isolation, but Mo Salah is nowhere near the top. Match it up with how many touches a player has in the opposition penalty area. Top is Mo Salah. Match that up with what you actually see with Mo, and it’s pretty obvious that referees seem actively keen to avoid giving fouls on him. But for you, that’s just people being bad at their job.

And why did they start favoring them under Solskjaer...? I think we all know that’s not the case. But again can refer you back to the previous comment from Scudamore about United being out of the CL? The continued influence of the govan tramp? Media influence?

The problem with all of this is the sheer lack of consistency.

Manchester United have been in and out of the European cup since Ferguson left so why has the intention to get them back into Europe just begun now? under Solskjaer they are getting roughly 4 times as many penalties per season as they were prior to his arrival. That is a fact. You may argue it’s coincidence, I’d argue it’s him telling them to dive.

On the touches in the opposition box, Leicester have had the same number of penalties as Manchester United this season and have had less touches in the area (865 vs 965,), Brighton even less (619 which is the fewest in the division and they have 9 penalties to United and Leicester’s 10) are the referees favouring them as well? Clearly the answer to that is no as a quick glance at a table showing VAR decisions for and against clubs in the division has Brighton at the bottom of it.

I’ve no issue with anyone holding a certain opinion over referees but it almost always relies on taking stats and incidents in isolation and ignoring the wider points which call that theory into question, the touches inside the penalty area thing is a really good example of it.

Offline El Lobo

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The problem with all of this is the sheer lack of consistency.

Manchester United have been in and out of the European cup since Ferguson left so why has the intention to get them back into Europe just begun now? under Solskjaer they are getting roughly 4 times as many penalties per season as they were prior to his arrival. That is a fact. You may argue it’s coincidence, I’d argue it’s him telling them to dive.

On the touches in the opposition box, Leicester have had the same number of penalties as Manchester United this season and have had less touches in the area (865 vs 965,), Brighton even less (619 which is the fewest in the division and they have 9 penalties to United and Leicester’s 10) are the referees favouring them as well? Clearly the answer to that is no as a quick glance at a table showing VAR decisions for and against clubs in the division has Brighton at the bottom of it.

I’ve no issue with anyone holding a certain opinion over referees but it almost always relies on taking stats and incidents in isolation and ignoring the wider points which call that theory into question, the touches inside the penalty area thing is a really good example of it.

With all due respect if that was true you wouldn’t have spent the last 7 months mocking anyone and everyone who has a problem with officiating in this country :duh
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Jm55

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With all due respect if that was true you wouldn’t have spent the last 7 months mocking anyone and everyone who has a problem with officiating in this country :duh

I’ve mocked people who come out with wild theories with no evidence to back them up in exactly the same way that I’d mock someone who tries to tell me that the earth is flat, or, more particularly, Manchester City fans a year ago who were coming out with very similar stuff - except that season there was apparently a campaign to win us the title. I’ve engaged in lots of reasoned posts with people who have highlighted issues that they’re not happy with in terms of refereeing, I think you’re deliberately ignoring that because it’s highly likely you’ve seen at least some of them.

As I say, with this sort of thing (and I’m taking generally rather than specifically about refereeing) it’s quite easy to make a reasonably compelling case to back your point up if you ignore the contextual facts surrounding it. You can make an argument for United’s number of penalties vs touches in the box whilst ignoring Leicester and Brighton having a more favourable ratio in that regard, you can make a point about the referees changing due to a rearranged fixture whilst ignoring the fact that Oliver couldn’t have reffed it anyway, you can talk about the numerous ridiculous decisions that have gone against us this season whilst not noting the (albeit fewer) ones which have gone our way and ignoring the fact that an ESPN journalist has enough material to do a weekly VAR thread explaining nonsensical decisions such is the level of frustration with this ridiculous form of refereeing.If we’re being refereed differently why does Wilson’s goal get disallowed in the Newcastle game when it’s the easiest thing in the world to give it?! Why does Taylor give the penalty in the first place as he has no idea whether VAR will intervene?

There’s tonnes of holes in it and that’s where my issue lies, I almost never see someone make a compelling case with a balanced argument acknowledging the points which go against that argument, it’s almost always cherry picking the bits which back it up.



Offline Arrowsmith

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Speaking of Bruno - did we ever figure out why he went down screaming untouched before Bobby’s header?
Maybe the ugly bastard caught sight of his own reflection.
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'as a poster' :) I'm not being snide Billy, but you're all over the place with that entire post mate.

it is one of the most informative, uninformative posts ever. I personally think there should be more like it.
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Offline PaddyPaned

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Lol, just think about what you are writing for a moment. You are literally inventing a 'conspiracy theory' in order to deny it (I won't say 'refute' it because there's rarely any attempt that that) and absolve yourself. In many ways this is far more interesting a psychological insight than the other

I don’t think I’m inventing a conspiracy theory when so many threads on here fixate on the minutiae of every single refereeing decision and imply - implicitly and often explicitly - that the powers that be will do all they can to stop Liverpool being successful. A considerable portion of every pre-match thread focuses on the officials, not just talking about their inadequacies (and the debate about the standard of officiating is a perfectly valid one) but often portraying them as peculiarly anti-Liverpool. Many people stated that the Old Trafford protests were exclusively a plan to fuck Liverpool over. The kernel of a conspiracy theory is certainly there - it doesn’t need to be invented. And if it wasn’t there, why would you demand that I refute it? Ultimately, it is natural that fans feel aggrieved when everything seems to go wrong for their team and usually so right for others. We are all susceptible of that - it is a natural instinct when Pickford cripples VVD without sanction, or when VAR seems to mess up repeatedly, or when Man Utd get another penalty. But if you want a refutation - if there really is some kind of anti-Liverpool agenda, it has been poorly-run given our recent successes! I try to avoid writing really lengthy posts, so there must be quite a lot of psychological insights here. ;)

Offline JRed

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And the earth is flat, the moon landings never happened, the Soviets, LBJ, the Mafia and the Masons killed JFK, Philip killed Diana, 9/11 was an inside job, Covid-19 is a George Soros coup. This conspiracy nonsense is driving me insane - we are where we are in the league because of poor performance. Stupidly back luck with injury, clearly, but this IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST US. It is really bad luck, nothing more, nothing less.
Bad luck? You mean we’re just unlucky that the refs are conspiring against us?

There have been far too many clear cut decisions given against us that should not have been for it to be just bad luck. There is a very clear bias against us.