Topic: Graeme Souness brands Celtic 'the unacceptable face of Scottish football'

[Son of Spion]

In my opinion it is the people holding all the power who need to offer the olive branch, not sure where offering an olive branch gets the downtrodden.

I totally understand where you're coming from and in a perfect world there would be no need for anyone to show disrespect to anyone else, but we don't live in one unfortunately.

I can't argue with any of that.

[ScottishGoon]

I'm Irish, if you need a further explanation that's on you not me.

I perhaps wrongly thought the queen herself gained some respect for trying to help out the peace process in recent history. I'm really uneducated on the subject and I haven't had to live it though so I apologise for that.

I did find it quite amusing when I found out that Celtic won a 4 team British tournament in 1953 called the Coronation Cup, that was organised to celebrate the coronation of the Queen, beating Hibs in the final in front of 117k fans.

They also didn't seem to mind their stadium being used for the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth games in Glasgow in 2014.

[FlashGordon]

I perhaps wrongly thought the queen herself gained some respect for trying to help out the peace process in recent history. I'm really uneducated on the subject and I haven't had to live it though so I apologise for that.

I did find it quite amusing when I found out that Celtic won a 4 team British tournament in 1953 called the Coronation Cup, that was organised to celebrate the coronation of the Queen, beating Hibs in the final in front of 117k fans.

They also didn't seem to mind their stadium being used for the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth games in Glasgow in 2014.

Maybe 1% less hatred. That's being generous.

[ScottishGoon]

Maybe 1% less hatred. That's being generous.

So was it not perceived as someone of power offering that olive branch like you mention in your previous post?

Again, I mean no disrespect, genuinely just trying to educate myself so thanks for the replies.

[FlashGordon]

So was it not perceived as someone of power offering that olive branch like you mention in your previous post?

Again, I mean no disrespect, genuinely just trying to educate myself so thanks for the replies.

An olive branch would be returning the 6 counties she still occupied. We can then start to talk about reparations for the 900 years of oppression.

[Indomitable_Carp]

Maybe 1% less hatred. That's being generous.

I don´t know if thats entirely true to be honest mate.

I am no fan of the Royals (in fact I´m a republican), paid no interest in the Queens mourning period, and have zero interest in the Old Firm cycle of hatred. But I have spoken to plenty of Irish people who don´t ´hate´ the Queen.

I´m sure amongst the more Republican-minded Irish the hate is strong. But that doesn´t speak for everyone. Thankfully. Because at the end of the day hate begets hate. Hate the institution by all means. I don´t think Queeny did so much to be hated on a personal level.

[ScottishGoon]

An olive branch would be returning the 6 counties she still occupied. We can then start to talk about reparations for the 900 years of oppression.

Ok, thanks for showing patience at my questions and answering what I know is a very touchy topic. Don't want to derail the thread any more, just genuinely interested in different views.

[Fromola]

It's the reality of Rangers and Celtic that the religion/politics are more important than the football for many.

Their reaction to the Queen's death a clear example.

[Terry de Niro]

It's the reality of Rangers and Celtic that the religion/politics are more important than the football for many.

Pure hatred of one another.

[steampie]

As John Oliver said (I'm paraphrasing here), 'perhaps instead of just condemning any booing/chanting, we should ask why they felt the need to do so in the first place.'

Honestly, I have lived here for 18 years and was (clearly naively) gobsmacked at the unrelenting torrent of GRIEF AND SADNESS AND MOURNING that was practically mandated by every politician, journo, etc.

edit: and Graeme can kindly gtfo with those stupid comments.

[Indomitable_Carp]

As John Oliver said (I'm paraphrasing here), 'perhaps instead of just condemning any booing/chanting, we should ask why they felt the need to do so in the first place.'

Honestly, I have lived here for 18 years and was (clearly naively) gobsmacked at the unrelenting torrent of GRIEF AND SADNESS AND MOURNING that was practically mandated by every politician, journo, etc.

edit: and Graeme can kindly gtfo with those stupid comments.

I think thats a slightly different issue though. Honestly, I don´t actually care whether or not Celtic fans booed the minutes silence. Anyone who knows anything of the history of the club and the identity that it entails, it was invetible - so I don´t know why they bothered to hold the silence in the first place.

But the point is, booing the national anthem as the representation of the Monarchy is one thing and entirely legitimate. I´ve booed it myself, and would boo it again. But booing a minutes silence for some recently died is distasteful. You make a good point : "Why do they feel the need to do so in the first place?". But when it comes to booing a minutes silence for someone dead, I would suggest is not a matter of politics, but a matter of personal charecter. I think the same about our lot who disturbed the minutes silence (as few of them as there were)

[FlashGordon]

I think thats a slightly different issue though. Honestly, I don´t actually care whether or not Celtic fans booed the minutes silence. Anyone who knows anything of the history of the club and the identity that it entails, it was invetible - so I don´t know why they bothered to hold the silence in the first place.

But the point is, booing the national anthem as the representation of the Monarchy is one thing and entirely legitimate. I´ve booed it myself, and would boo it again. But booing a minutes silence for some recently died is distasteful. You make a good point : "Why do they feel the need to do so in the first place?". But when it comes to booing a minutes silence for someone dead, I would suggest is not a matter of politics, but a matter of personal charecter. I think the same about our lot who disturbed the minutes silence (as few of them as there were)

Hard to separate the human element from the institution element. I'm sure Elizabeth the person may have been a nice lady. What she represented though is something entirely different. People have emotions, they act irrationally, not always making decisions that are logical to people removed from the situation.

I'll leave it here as well as we're going around in circles really and people's views on the matter are entrenched.

[Macphisto80]

He's getting increasingly controversial and embarrassing at times, but I'd still rather watch him and the various lot on RTE have a heated debate (even if they're all equally gobshites) than the utterly nauseating panel of Lineker, Jenas, Richards et al you see on MOTD and Carragher/Neville/Ferdinand on Sky.

I'd rather listen to RTE than the latter group of tossers.

Souness I actually don't mind too much. He can just put a foot in it at times. He's certainly done so here. Just a little bit more thought with his statements and he'd be OK. Then again, how many can you say that about.

[Macphisto80]

As I said, though, I think everyone knows why they did it. ''Cause'' might have been the wrong word, but the bottom line is it did them no real favours. In essence, it comes over as disrespectful people disrespecting other disrespectful people. Basically, a sad, sorry sight that further compounds division.

I hated a couple of ours disrupting the silence at Anfield. We are better than that, and 99.9% attending on the night proved it too. Sadly, 100% of Liverpool fans will now suffer the ''well you booed the Queen, so we'll boo your Hillsborough'' shouts everywhere we go, because of that 0.01%. 

Decency and dignity can attract green shoots of sympathy and empathy. Hate simply attracts more hate in return, and on it goes...

Do you think that will be the case, or already is, SoS? I've fucked the likes of Twitter off and haven't been watching any news lately for obvious reasons. This is basically the only place I come to keep up with anything to do with the club, and to be honest.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

Two cheeks of the same arse.

[DonkeyWan]

[Son of Spion]

Do you think that will be the case, or already is, SoS? I've fucked the likes of Twitter off and haven't been watching any news lately for obvious reasons. This is basically the only place I come to keep up with anything to do with the club, and to be honest.

I don't have Twitter or Facebook either, but lots of things pop up and I do follow certain stories and links then come across comments. I think there has always been those who would throw Hillsborough in regardless, but there are others who seem to need an excuse before they do. I've seen plenty of comments from people who now feel it justified to play the Hillsborough card since the disrupted silence. Apparently, we showed no respect, so deserve none in return. The fact it was only a few selfish morons makes no difference it seems.

[Elmo!]

Two cheeks of the same arse.

This

[Linudden]

Celtic fans do have free speech even if many people won't agree with them. That's all.

[So… Howard Philips]

Celtic fans do have free speech even if many people won't agree with them. That's all.

The other side of the coin will be when Rangers fans undoubtedly sing the National anthem at Anfield.

[Pistolero]

Legend.

[darragh85]

It's how people like him expect the whole world to respect the British royal family.

The hypocrisy is bizarre also. They have been preaching black lives matter for the past 2 years and now it's pay your respects to the head of a monarchy that has no place in a modern civilisation and remains as a stark reminder of the root cause of Alot of evils and prejudices that exist in the world today including racism. Makes me sick

[TipTopKop]

Not with Souness on this one.

[Macphisto80]

It's how people like him expect the whole world to respect the British royal family.

The hypocrisy is bizarre also. They have been preaching black lives matter for the past 2 years and now it's pay your respects to the head of a monarchy that has no place in a modern civilisation and remains as a stark reminder of the root cause of Alot of evils and prejudices that exist in the world today including racism. Makes me sick

Spot on.

[Barneylfc∗]

I wonder what Souness thinks of Rangers and Kilmarnock legend Kyle Lafferty going round saying 'pack of fenian bastards' and whether that contributes towards the unacceptable face of Scottish football?

[KillieRed]

I wonder what Souness thinks of Rangers and Kilmarnock legend Kyle Lafferty going round saying 'pack of fenian bastards' and whether that contributes towards the unacceptable face of Scottish football?

Not his first contribution to peace & fraternity, whilst at either club. Hopefully Killie will get shot of him.

[Terry de Niro]

I wonder what Souness thinks of Rangers and Kilmarnock legend Kyle Lafferty going round saying 'pack of fenian bastards' and whether that contributes towards the unacceptable face of Scottish football?

Not his first contribution to peace & fraternity, whilst at either club. Hopefully Killie will get shot of him.

Fair play to Northern Ireland for sending him packing.

[Ghost Town]

Celtic fans do have free speech even if many people won't agree with them. That's all.

Yep. This is my position as well. Freedom of conscience and speech means hearing or seeing people say/do things we may not personally find tasteful, or may have done differently, but continuing to defend their right to do so anyway.

Otherwise it stops being free speech and becomes 'wot I think is OK speech'.

Humanity is a broad canvas, despite attempts to homogenise it, and long may that last.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Legend.

You spelt dickhead wrong.

[Mister Flip Flop]

It's how people like him expect the whole world to respect the British royal family.

The hypocrisy is bizarre also. They have been preaching black lives matter for the past 2 years and now it's pay your respects to the head of a monarchy that has no place in a modern civilisation and remains as a stark reminder of the root cause of Alot of evils and prejudices that exist in the world today including racism. Makes me sick

This

[SouthDerryLaggo]

My in laws are Celtic season ticket holders from Motherwell and to be honest have a significant dose of plastic paddy syndrome. I am an Irish Catholic and a nationalist, I do not like the royals, however I was able to stand for a minutes silence the other week because a human being had died, a foreign head of state. The in laws think what Celtic did was funny and "fuck the queen, we are unrepentant to the core"
I can't agree with it and think they made a bit of a show of themselves, lowering themselves to rangers level as It is exactly what I would have expected rangers fans to do if the pope had died. Its all ridiculous and a lot in Ireland have grown up and moved on from the old firm leaving a lot of the "Irish" Scots to live in the past.

[Billy The Kid]

The in laws think what Celtic did was funny and "fuck the queen, we are unrepentant to the core"
I can't agree with it and think they made a bit of a show of themselves, lowering themselves to rangers level as It is exactly what I would have expected rangers fans to do if the pope had died.

That's the Celtic/Rangers rivalry in a nutshell though, isn't it? Two fanbases whose entire identities revolve around sectarian provocation. All whilst lacking the self-awareness to recognise how infantile they appear to the outside world. I'm only speaking for myself here, but the impression I've always gotten of Celtic is they seem to revel in portraying themselves as this whiter-than-white force for good, who only ever engage in sectarian bickering as a response to Rangers provocation. According to Celtic fans, a halo would beam proudly above Park Head if they weren't routinely dragged into the gutter by the persecuting evils of the Crown

Whereas Rangers don't hide it. They've no problem admitting who and what they are to the outside world. They'll do you the courtesy of openly revealing their true worldview, and won't waste your time pretending to be something they're not. Their stance is very much lick our balls and fuck right off if you don't like us, we don't give two fucks either way. Still painfully childish, but I'd rather you gave me that than Celtic's thinly veiled angelic gimmick

[TepidT2O]

Controversial comment in the bagging area!

At Rangers of course, Souness basically told sectarians to fuck off …. Took balls that

[Flaccido Dongingo]

How about this hypothetical scenario, if the Pope happened to pass away one day before an Old Firm game at Parkhead, would the Rangers lot respect a minutes silence?, would they fuck.

[Wabaloolah]

Yep. This is my position as well. Freedom of conscience and speech means hearing or seeing people say/do things we may not personally find tasteful, or may have done differently, but continuing to defend their right to do so anyway.

Otherwise it stops being free speech and becomes 'wot I think is OK speech'.

Humanity is a broad canvas, despite attempts to homogenise it, and long may that last.

presumably you don't mind it when Chelsea fans boo the Hillsborough silence or when United fans do the victims and murderers chants as despite it being distasteful, it is their right to freely express their opinion?

[Wabaloolah]

Controversial comment in the bagging area!

At Rangers of course, Souness basically told sectarians to fuck off …. Took balls that

wasn't he the first manager to sign a "Catholic" player for the club? Mo Johnson I think?

[Barneylfc∗]

presumably you don't mind it when Chelsea fans boo the Hillsborough silence or when United fans do the victims and murderers chants as despite it being distasteful, it is their right to freely express their opinion?

I've seen this quite often on various platforms since she died.
I have to say I am flabbergasted that anyone, not least our own fans, think the unlawful killing of 97 innocent football fans is in any way comparable to her.

Chelsea, Man United and any other fans that boo the silence, or sing those songs are doing it because they are utter filthy scumbags. People that voice their displeasure at the queen or the regime generally have a reason to do so.

[TepidT2O]

wasn't he the first manager to sign a "Catholic" player for the club? Mo Johnson I think?

Yes…

[B0151?]

To be fair the much loved Ally McCoist said similar I understand

The unacceptable face comment is unnecessarily harsh. But it's the type of comment you'd expect a blues fan to say about us (or dare I say, we might say that about our rivals also). So you have to view it through that lens imo. But if we're talking about freedom of speech, he's certainly entitled to condemn it if that's how he feels.

[classycarra]

To be fair the much loved Ally McCoist said similar I understand

The unacceptable face comment is unnecessarily harsh. But it's the type of comment you'd expect a blues fan to say about us (or dare I say, we might say that about our rivals also). So you have to view it through that lens imo. But if we're talking about freedom of speech, he's certainly entitled to condemn it if that's how he feels.

It's not unnecessarily harsh, it's not even harsh. Only mistake is that he doesn't mention that Rangers are too.

Celtic are followed by their fair share of dickheads and the club itself are quick to point fingers at bigotry from Rangers, but don't apply the same principles to their own supporters (just look at how they labelled Rangers fans pathetic for their chants to the japanese player - and yes, they are pathetic - but then when their own fans are partaking in antisemitic stuff targeting their own israeli player bitton, they don't even investigate it. I guess they weren't getting enough kicks and 'personality' from sectarianism 1.0 that they felt they needed to expand to a new second front. Billy the Kid is spot on about how celtic like to act as if they're a virtuous fanbase. They're not