Poll

The incoming Tory Tax Cuts..

Brilliant! With everyone struggling at the moment, a few hundred quid would be most welcome
Maybe a small one, but money should be spent on failing public services
I am an egg and I like cheese and fluffy squirrels called Bob. Bob the Fluffy squirrel is my fave babes.
There shouldn't be a tax cut when public services are already so broken. Keep spending what we are
Far more investment is needed in this country. Spend the money where it's needed now and fuck this stupid Austerity shite.

Author Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES  (Read 1295817 times)

Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15120 on: September 29, 2022, 01:14:07 pm »
She doesn`t strike me as the sort to take advice.

She had an affair in 2006 with another Tory MP

I believe he advocates the low tax economics we're seeing implemented now.
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Offline Black Bull Nova

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15122 on: September 29, 2022, 01:17:35 pm »
That's probably insulting to an A Level student  :D

If you're passionate about a certain subject, you can probably educate yourself to a very good level and go into a fair amount of detail. Just not deliver a presentation to a room of true experts on the subject.

Truss is the kid trying to explain a book to class based on what she read off the back cover cause she was too lazy to actually read it.


Very much so, it is the economics of those who find thinking and listening hard.


What I would say is that it is not impossible in theory for tax cutting to stimulate growth, it is more complicated than that, for the sorts of reasons like;


-Much of what is released back to individuals in terms of cash often leaks from the UK into foreign holidays, property abroad etc, if that money is to have any effect in this country it would have to be spent on UK goods and services. Obviously a proportion of it will but much of it won't. If you spend money building a motorway and use a UK construction company, the majority of the first wave of money stimulates growth in this country, the degree to which any further growth occurs depends on how the income from the first wave is spent etc.  In other words you can have greater impact with capital spending than tax cuts. (see New Deal 1930s)


-If you believe that tax cutting will stimulate people into starting business, well, that may be true, but not at a time when people are spending less because of other reasons (public sector cuts, inflation, anxiety etc). Tax cutting in a recession takes a long time to have any impact, it's not a quick fix.




Most advisors and officials will know this because that is their job to know it. Truss and Kwarteng are clueless because they are acting out of ideology and prejudice rather than intelligence. There is a small % they are right because the world economy as well as the UK economy are very unpredictable and who knows what might happen but then it would only be because a broken clock is right twice a day regardless of how fundamentally useless it is.


Massive, massive against the odds gamble, bit like gambling on Leicester City winning the league (next year)

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15124 on: September 29, 2022, 01:33:40 pm »
This makes no sense to me, she has a degree in PPE, so she should have some grasp of what’s going on and why or is the PPE syllabus weighted more towards the PP and less towards the E?
economics is a dismal science at the best of times, and people who do PPE at oxford are not smart (in the way i'd define it) or self aware or empathetic people

did once say this at work and a colleague nearby piped up that they did it. it made sense. luckily was able to avoid offending them, without backtracking, because as i said they are a bit 'head in the clouds'
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 01:35:29 pm by Classycara »

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15125 on: September 29, 2022, 01:36:02 pm »

Very much so, it is the economics of those who find thinking and listening hard.


What I would say is that it is not impossible in theory for tax cutting to stimulate growth, it is more complicated than that, for the sorts of reasons like;


-Much of what is released back to individuals in terms of cash often leaks from the UK into foreign holidays, property abroad etc, if that money is to have any effect in this country it would have to be spent on UK goods and services. Obviously a proportion of it will but much of it won't. If you spend money building a motorway and use a UK construction company, the majority of the first wave of money stimulates growth in this country, the degree to which any further growth occurs depends on how the income from the first wave is spent etc.  In other words you can have greater impact with capital spending than tax cuts. (see New Deal 1930s)


-If you believe that tax cutting will stimulate people into starting business, well, that may be true, but not at a time when people are spending less because of other reasons (public sector cuts, inflation, anxiety etc). Tax cutting in a recession takes a long time to have any impact, it's not a quick fix.




Most advisors and officials will know this because that is their job to know it. Truss and Kwarteng are clueless because they are acting out of ideology and prejudice rather than intelligence. There is a small % they are right because the world economy as well as the UK economy are very unpredictable and who knows what might happen but then it would only be because a broken clock is right twice a day regardless of how fundamentally useless it is.


Massive, massive against the odds gamble, bit like gambling on Leicester City winning the league (next year)

Aye. I'm no expert, but I would say the best tax cut to stimulate an economy would be a reduction in VAT.  People are more likely to save/hoard with the current economic uncertainty, so tax savings will be squirrelled away for emergencies.
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Offline Circa1892

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15126 on: September 29, 2022, 01:37:35 pm »
She had an affair in 2006 with another Tory MP

I believe he advocates the low tax economics we're seeing implemented now.

There's been rumours in the past she had an affair with Kwarteng haven't there?

Mark Field - the one she did have an affair with - was the one who assaulted that protestor. Nice guy.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15127 on: September 29, 2022, 01:40:43 pm »
My energy supplier said they's included the new price cap, but excluded the £400 government support on their prediction. No idea if they all do that, but it makes sense as the £400 might be paid differently, depending on how you pay your bill.

Ditto - they sent me a separate letter telling me how they were spreading it and that it would just come off each month's DD but haven't changed the bill price. Presume they don't want people to accidentally deduct it twice in their budgeting then come up short

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15128 on: September 29, 2022, 01:46:54 pm »
There's been rumours in the past she had an affair with Kwarteng haven't there?

Mark Field - the one she did have an affair with - was the one who assaulted that protestor. Nice guy.

Takes a lot to make John Major shagging Edwina Curry seem not too bad.
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Offline Red Viper

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15129 on: September 29, 2022, 02:00:43 pm »
Listening to some of the clips from the radio interviews. Yikes.

Couldn't even answer the most basic of questions on stuff that she's had days to prepare for. Also, why did she keep saying that she's ensured no household will pay more than £2500 a year on their energy bills when anyone conducting the most basic bit of research would know that just isn't true. Does she not understand how the energy bill cap works or is she just wilfully misrepresenting how it works?

Offline Machae

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15130 on: September 29, 2022, 02:03:05 pm »
Listening to some of the clips from the radio interviews. Yikes.

Couldn't even answer the most basic of questions on stuff that she's had days to prepare for. Also, why did she keep saying that she's ensured no household will pay more than £2500 a year on their energy bills when anyone conducting the most basic bit of research would know that just isn't true. Does she not understand how the energy bill cap works or is she just wilfully misrepresenting how it works?

Dont know why they just didnt press her on why they discounted a levy on windfall tax, which would have gone some way in preventing the financial collapse we are experiencing now

Offline cornishscouser92

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15131 on: September 29, 2022, 02:03:59 pm »
Redfield and Wilton poll out at 5, huge labour lead apparently (12% was the last poll they did)
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15132 on: September 29, 2022, 02:04:42 pm »
No leccy cars or heat pumps  :'(

Ive know the |£2500 ewas average use.  They got my bill from average use

Would a smart meter help?
I've never bothered as no ones ever been able to explain the advantage to me beyond not having to send meter readings - which takes me about 2mins per month.

If I were you I'd look at what appliances you have and understand the cost of them. The general rule is that if it moves or heats up, it'll cost a fair bit.
e.g. a power shower is about 8-12000Kwh, so at 33p per Kwh, even an 8Kwh shower is £2.64 per hour at full power, which adds up if you've got older kids living with you.
A leccy oven may be around 5kwh at full power, so even at half power its over 80p per hour.
You've then got washers/dryers/dishwashers. Electric heaters are a killer too.
When the kids were around we'd regularly do 600 Kwh per month which we thought was a lot, but even on post October prices that's only around £230 a month. It sounds like they may have got their sums wrong.

Sorry to veer off topic, but I don't like it when people have bills that high. It helps keep my mind off the shitshow going on too.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 02:07:03 pm by Charlie Adams fried egg »

Offline thaddeus

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15133 on: September 29, 2022, 02:07:41 pm »
That's probably insulting to an A Level student  :D

If you're passionate about a certain subject, you can probably educate yourself to a very good level and go into a fair amount of detail. Just not deliver a presentation to a room of true experts on the subject.

Truss is the kid trying to explain a book to class based on what she read off the back cover cause she was too lazy to actually read it.
I'm going to give Truss the benefit of the doubt and believe she would put in the hours and make the effort to inform herself.  The problem is that without a really broad knowledge of the subject - deciding the relative merits of Keynesian or Monetarist economics, for example - she's likely to just lap up whatever she reads first.  Keeping in mind who surrounds her I think we can imagine which economic theories she will have been encouraged to read about.

Everything people say about Truss suggests she's much more committed and hardworking than Johnson (low bar!) but that doesn't mean she's any better placed.  As others have said, Johnson was too idle to have any strong beliefs so leant more on experts, for good or bad, whilst Truss will likely believe she is the expert.

Offline reddebs

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15134 on: September 29, 2022, 02:11:51 pm »
I wonder if all those radio broadcasts have been archived for future reference so people can sue her for disinformation when they get a huge bill this winter!!

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15135 on: September 29, 2022, 02:17:46 pm »
I've never bothered as no ones ever been able to explain the advantage to me beyond not having to send meter readings - which takes me about 2mins per month.

If I were you I'd look at what appliances you have and understand the cost of them. The general rule is that if it moves or heats up, it'll cost a fair bit.
e.g. a power shower is about 8-12000Kwh, so at 33p per Kwh, even an 8Kwh shower is £2.64 per hour at full power, which adds up if you've got older kids living with you.
A leccy oven may be around 5kwh at full power, so even at half power its over 80p per hour.
You've then got washers/dryers/dishwashers. Electric heaters are a killer too.
When the kids were around we'd regularly do 600 Kwh per month which we thought was a lot, but even on post October prices that's only around £230 a month. It sounds like they may have got their sums wrong.

Sorry to veer off topic, but I don't like it when people have bills that high. It helps keep my mind off the shitshow going on too.

Thanks fotr the reply.  Redbyrdz has written a good post on smart meters too.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15136 on: September 29, 2022, 02:27:54 pm »
I just think they’re also really dumb

The problem with our national media is that it is recruiting from an ever decreasing pool of talent. To get to be a national journo you need to have connections to get an internship  and enough money in the trust fund or bank of pater and mater, to cover the costs of that internship when you get one.
Henry, Allegra, Julian, Rupert, Jemima, Clarissa and Penelope all went to public school and their parents are “something in the city” hence they were able to get that internship. They then get asked to write about recipes and house prices as a starter.
One of them wrote that earning £100k a year doesn’t make you rich, because you have to pay a mortgage of £2k a month, and having a wife at home is expensive…
Fuck off
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Offline 12C

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15137 on: September 29, 2022, 02:34:08 pm »
I disagree with the latter part. These presenters have been hearing about the cost of living crisis from their listeners every day, they're not part of the cosy Westminster lobby clique, and are not going to be fobbed off by the usual mateyness. They also have their own local issues that are important to them but not to Conservative central office so I doubt if Truss was briefed on their importance. It's not John Humphrys smirking at her and wondering when their next dinner party is going to be in any case.

Either way, it's another catastrophic miscalculation from Truss.

They aren’t bothered about access. They aren’t going to be like LauraK or Bobby Pesto, smiling and laughing with the likes of Johnson, scared that their gravy train might get derailed if they ask hard questions.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15138 on: September 29, 2022, 02:38:43 pm »
It really is astonishing Truss won an election.

Even among the Tory members. She's a fundamentally poor speaker and communicator. Ignoring everything else it's madness.

They literally just voted for a cosplay Thatcher. It'd be the equivalent of us putting that bloke who dressed up as Klopp on the piss and duped GMB in the Euros as our next manager.

Loved the description
Margarine Thatcher.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15139 on: September 29, 2022, 02:40:28 pm »
40% of mortgage products taken off the market since the mini budget last Friday, so 1,621 products taken off the market leaving only 2,340 products left on sale.

Empty mortgage shelves wasn’t on the Brexit benefit list
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15140 on: September 29, 2022, 02:40:34 pm »
Loved the description
Margarine Thatcher.


I can’t believe she’s not better.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15141 on: September 29, 2022, 02:42:41 pm »
It really is astonishing Truss won an election.

Even among the Tory members. She's a fundamentally poor speaker and communicator. Ignoring everything else it's madness.

They literally just voted for a cosplay Thatcher. It'd be the equivalent of us putting that bloke who dressed up as Klopp on the piss and duped GMB in the Euros as our next manager.

Daily Mail were cheerleading for Truss as well. They're wrong about absolutely everything and yet are still taken seriously.

I made the point at the time that the Thatcher fetishism that pervades the golf club bores in the membership, will vote for any woman who can resemble that witch. She even wore the same clothes as her in the leadership debates.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15142 on: September 29, 2022, 02:43:56 pm »
I can’t believe she’s not better.

Her and Kwarteng are like pigs in clover though.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15143 on: September 29, 2022, 02:49:08 pm »
They aren’t bothered about access. They aren’t going to be like LauraK or Bobby Pesto, smiling and laughing with the likes of Johnson, scared that their gravy train might get derailed if they ask hard questions.

Holly and Phil getting a selfie with Boris during a chummy pre election interview. Of course they grilled Corbyn like they were Paxman. Our media are a disgrace and a big part of why we are where we are.

And all these media types who cheered the Tories for 12 years (not least as they kept top tax rates down) are now panicking about their mortgage, house price, pensions, interests rates a nd inflation. Same with Middle England generally.
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15144 on: September 29, 2022, 02:51:32 pm »
I wonder if all those radio broadcasts have been archived for future reference so people can sue her for disinformation when they get a huge bill this winter!!

Exactly what I was thinking, wonder if anyone with a bill over £2500 can sue her. Surely if it comes from the PM, it must be right?
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15146 on: September 29, 2022, 03:01:12 pm »
Thanks fotr the reply.  Redbyrdz has written a good post on smart meters too.

Probably already said, but a smart meter does help take the guess work out of what your actual usage is.

I also think seeing what you're spending in an hour/day focusses the mind onto what you might not need to be switched on or used.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15147 on: September 29, 2022, 03:03:16 pm »
Daily Mail were cheerleading for Truss as well. They're wrong about absolutely everything and yet are still taken seriously.

I made the point at the time that the Thatcher fetishism that pervades the golf club bores in the membership, will vote for any woman who can resemble that witch. She even wore the same clothes as her in the leadership debates.

Cant quite put my finger on it, but i believe there is something about Sunak that your elderly typical tory member might not like.


Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15148 on: September 29, 2022, 03:06:10 pm »
Exactly what I was thinking, wonder if anyone with a bill over £2500 can sue her. Surely if it comes from the PM, it must be right?
Has she been repeating this line today?

If so I suggest we all go back to our energy providers and refuse to pay a penny more.

Offline red_Mark1980

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15149 on: September 29, 2022, 03:10:43 pm »
It really is astonishing Truss won an election.

Even among the Tory members. She's a fundamentally poor speaker and communicator. Ignoring everything else it's madness.

They literally just voted for a cosplay Thatcher. It'd be the equivalent of us putting that bloke who dressed up as Klopp on the piss and duped GMB in the Euros as our next manager.

Take a look who she was up against and who was voting....

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15150 on: September 29, 2022, 03:14:02 pm »
Holly and Phil getting a selfie with Boris during a chummy pre election interview. Of course they grilled Corbyn like they were Paxman. Our media are a disgrace and a big part of why we are where we are.

And all these media types who cheered the Tories for 12 years (not least as they kept top tax rates down) are now panicking about their mortgage, house price, pensions, interests rates a nd inflation. Same with Middle England generally.

If any of them had extracted their heads from their arses they would have noticed the damage and destruction being inflicted upon those further down the chain, which was evident from early on in the Tories reign (well, evident in any Tory reign). But it didn't hurt them personally, so they weren't remotely bothered.

Political journo's have been laughing it up brunching with Tory comms teams' every week or so for years, thinking they were somehow doing political journalism by leaking tittle-tattle, Westminster gossip and partisan bullshit and patting themselves on the back for 'gaining access' - ignorant or uncaring of the fact they were just being used. Cummings basically admitted he could get any old shit plastered all over the media and none of them would ever question any of it or dig a millimetre beneath the surface.

Offline Red Raw

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15151 on: September 29, 2022, 03:15:28 pm »
Lizz Truss' husband is an economist...
Pity her chancellor isn't...

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15152 on: September 29, 2022, 03:15:34 pm »
i guess we have to remember that boris was a bumbling buffoon and unfortunately his popularity turned from people laughing at him to people laughing at the tory party

it seems they have gone with the antithesis of bojo

that's the only reasoning i can think of
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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15153 on: September 29, 2022, 03:16:11 pm »
Take a look who she was up against and who was voting....

And who was getting positive media coverage and who wasn't:


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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15154 on: September 29, 2022, 03:16:17 pm »
Has she been repeating this line today?

If so I suggest we all go back to our energy providers and refuse to pay a penny more.
Her wording was typically clumsy.

Truss: "we are making sure that nobody faces energy bills of a typical, more than a typical, £2,500 from this weekend" (from roughly five minutes in on this clip https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0d3d7b8)

I'm pretty sure you couldn't sue the government if you spent £10k on gas/electric next year based on that statement but I still think it's misleading.

Offline Stubbins

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15155 on: September 29, 2022, 03:22:50 pm »
Cant quite put my finger on it, but i believe there is something about Sunak that your elderly typical tory member might not like.



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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15156 on: September 29, 2022, 03:25:28 pm »
Her wording was typically clumsy.

Truss: "we are making sure that nobody faces energy bills of a typical, more than a typical, £2,500 from this weekend" (from roughly five minutes in on this clip https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0d3d7b8)

I'm pretty sure you couldn't sue the government if you spent £10k on gas/electric next year based on that statement but I still think it's misleading.

Horrendously articulated, but agree with you, I think you'd struggle based on that. The use of typical provides enough ambiguity.

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15157 on: September 29, 2022, 03:30:03 pm »
I'm going to give Truss the benefit of the doubt and believe she would put in the hours and make the effort to inform herself.  The problem is that without a really broad knowledge of the subject - deciding the relative merits of Keynesian or Monetarist economics, for example - she's likely to just lap up whatever she reads first.  Keeping in mind who surrounds her I think we can imagine which economic theories she will have been encouraged to read about.

Everything people say about Truss suggests she's much more committed and hardworking than Johnson (low bar!) but that doesn't mean she's any better placed.  As others have said, Johnson was too idle to have any strong beliefs so leant more on experts, for good or bad, whilst Truss will likely believe she is the expert.

If we go with this theory then I would say her biggest problem is that she doesn't know what she doesn't know, which is still pretty bloody awful and dangerous as there's nothing worse than someone who thinks they know what they're talking about but actually doesn't.

As far as media coverage is concerned, I think Tories in general and Truss in particular have already lost the media war.  It won't matter how their pet zealots try to spin this. The British people are passive and easily mugged, but they're also really fucking angry right now. Angry people are motivated people - angry enough to discern a lot of what they're being told by the government and their media backers is a bagfull of sweaty scrotums.

You can control a docile electorate, but too much has happened too fast and I think it's woken a lot of people up.
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Offline Red Raw

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15158 on: September 29, 2022, 03:32:33 pm »
She had an affair in 2006 with another Tory MP

I believe he advocates the low tax economics we're seeing implemented now.
   :-X

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Re: Conservatives: wholly-owned subsidiary of the ERG and 55 Tufton Street
« Reply #15159 on: September 29, 2022, 03:33:03 pm »
i guess we have to remember that boris was a bumbling buffoon and unfortunately his popularity turned from people laughing at him to people laughing at the tory party

it seems they have gone with the antithesis of bojo

that's the only reasoning i can think of

Bozo was playing a part. His bumbling act was intended to disarm people and put them to sleep. He was deliberately trying to come across as harmless and fun and not be seen as a threat. Truss really IS an idiot though.
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