Topic: Trent Alexander-Arnold

[CraigDS]

This from a fella who picks Maguire?

I actually wouldnt have given a fuck if TAA missed the world cup if you asked me two weeks ago

But I do worry how it will effect him.

Everybody dreams of playing in a world cup and you dont get that many opportunities, he will be bitterly disappointed not to play in it.

That is a big blow to try recover from

He'll have another chance to go to one, possibly two, and hopefully under a manager who actually has a fucking clue so he might be in with a chance of competing for the thing too - as they won't be this time round.

Southgate will be sacked by the end of the year too, so he can get his international career back on track once he's fucked off.

[thaddeus]

does anyone actually know what southgate's system is?

every england game i watch seems disjointed and looks like we're just winging it

A back four or back five, two holding midfielders, Kane up front by himself and then two or three of our over-hyped attacking midfielders/wingers tasked with providing any and all creativity.  It's pretty similar to how Tuchel set Chelsea up but a long way off where Klopp and Guardiola have taken the game to.

Imagine how different the reporting would have been though if Pope hadn't spilled that shot and gifted Germany the equaliser.  "Southgate masterclass to come from two down to beat the Germans".

[newterp]

haha - on one hand he has a manager that picks him all day long and has won all the trophies. on the other hand he has Southgate who fluked to a final and lost, and helped manage his team to relegation.

[markmywords]

He'll have another chance to go to one, possibly two, and hopefully under a manager who actually has a fucking clue so he might be in with a chance of competing for the thing too - as they won't be this time round.

Southgate will be sacked by the end of the year too, so he can get his international career back on track once he's fucked off.

No guarantee he starts ahead of reece james (or perhaps even walker), even IF southgate is replaced after the WC. 

Everyone makes mistakes, and Trent could be the best attacking FB we have seen potentially, but his lack of reaction to people running in behind him is alarming

[Machae]

Silver lining is that this setback will make him buckle down hard and produce the best form of his life. Each display will make waistcoat wearing ball sack of a manager, a bigger fool

[wemmick]

I'm not sure I understand the argument about Trent not fitting Southgate's system. National sides don't really have systems. There's not enough time, even before big tournaments, for a manager to implement a competent system. At best they choose a defensive formation and a set of attacking principles that allows the best players to play their natural game. The national team manager is more of an advisor to the players more than a trainer. That has been a key to Brazil and Germany's international success. Spain's and Croatia's, too. It's why the Dutch and England often fall apart in the end, and the U.S. substantially over or under performs tournament to tournament. Trent should be in the national side. He is one of England's best players--without question. Systems my arse. Southgate will never win a major tournament if he is picking players for his system.   

[-Willo-]

I'm not sure I understand the argument about Trent not fitting Southgate's system. National sides don't really have systems. There's not enough time, even before big tournaments, for a manager to implement a competent system. At best they choose a defensive formation and a set of attacking principles that allows the best players to play their natural game. The national team manager is more of an advisor to the players more than a trainer. That has been a key to Brazil and Germany's international success. Spain's and Croatia's, too. It's why the Dutch and England often fall apart in the end, and the U.S. substantially over or under performs tournament to tournament. Trent should be in the national side. He is one of England's best players--without question. Systems my arse. Southgate will never win a major tournament if he is picking players for his system.   

Spot on.

International management is just man management, which Southgate seems to be shit at.

[bornandbRED]

It’s just bonkers when you think about what he’s achieved in the game. Even mere comparisons with Trippier are hilarious. Southgate is an absolute oddball.

Maybe the craziest thing about football is the fickleness and lack of objectivity in football fans. You wouldn’t think Trent has won everything there is to win at club level, just been to his 3rd CL final, played in one of the best defences in Europe which helped amass 90+ points for the third time in his short career, been picked in the PFA team of the year for the third time, and made the CL team of the year if you listened to the average goblin. The whole thing is utterly bizarre and he must be baffled as to what else he has to do to even make the squad at this stage.

[Schmidt]

I'm not sure I understand the argument about Trent not fitting Southgate's system. National sides don't really have systems. There's not enough time, even before big tournaments, for a manager to implement a competent system. At best they choose a defensive formation and a set of attacking principles that allows the best players to play their natural game. The national team manager is more of an advisor to the players more than a trainer. That has been a key to Brazil and Germany's international success. Spain's and Croatia's, too. It's why the Dutch and England often fall apart in the end, and the U.S. substantially over or under performs tournament to tournament. Trent should be in the national side. He is one of England's best players--without question. Systems my arse. Southgate will never win a major tournament if he is picking players for his system.   

Southgate likes grocks in midfield/defence and Trent isn't a grock, that's all it really comes down to.

[paulrazor]

He'll have another chance to go to one, possibly two, and hopefully under a manager who actually has a fucking clue so he might be in with a chance of competing for the thing too - as they won't be this time round.

Southgate will be sacked by the end of the year too, so he can get his international career back on track once he's fucked off.

never a guarantee, time on his side but anything can happen in 4 years.

[Samie]

Trent played at the 2018 World Cup. 

[Samie]

No guarantee he starts ahead of reece james (or perhaps even walker), even IF southgate is replaced after the WC. 

Everyone makes mistakes, and Trent could be the best attacking FB we have seen potentially, but his lack of reaction to people running in behind him is alarming

I see how you got your custom title.

[markmywords]

I'm not sure I understand the argument about Trent not fitting Southgate's system. National sides don't really have systems. There's not enough time, even before big tournaments, for a manager to implement a competent system. At best they choose a defensive formation and a set of attacking principles that allows the best players to play their natural game. The national team manager is more of an advisor to the players more than a trainer. That has been a key to Brazil and Germany's international success. Spain's and Croatia's, too. It's why the Dutch and England often fall apart in the end, and the U.S. substantially over or under performs tournament to tournament.

This could all be a reason NOT to pick trent, in our system he is dynamite with henderson covering him and  robertson and in particular salah and mane proving long range passing options.  International teams (unless you have 5 if 6 from 1 club side) seems to work best when you rely on pace and people who can beat their man to open sides up, rather than orchestrated combination play, this would benefit walker over trent and perhaps james too.  When Southgate says Trippier is better allround, I'm not sure if he in part means his ability to play lb as well as RB

[Crosby Nick]

Read earlier that he’s played in more cup finals for us than he has played competitive matches for England. Pretty mad all round if so.

[El Lobo]

Read earlier that he’s played in more cup finals for us than he has played competitive matches for England. Pretty mad all round if so.

Aye

Apparently close on games he's played for us at Wembley Vs games he's played for England at Wembley (their home ground)

[CraigDS]

Read earlier that he’s played in more cup finals for us than he has played competitive matches for England. Pretty mad all round if so.

Read a stat that since Aug 2019 he's played 4 competitive 90min matches for England...and in that time has won the Super Cup, Club World Cup, Premier League, League Cup and FA Cup... and has played in 2 CL finals (having won one just before Aug 2019).

[newterp]

Read a stat that since the dawn of time that Southgate has been a shit manager

[Samie]

Read an urban legend saying the ghost of an owl resides within Gareth.

[Hazell]

I see how you got your custom title.

Seems a bit high.

[afc tukrish]

Seems a bit high.

 

[lionel_messias]

This could all be a reason NOT to pick trent, in our system he is dynamite with henderson covering him and  robertson and in particular salah and mane proving long range passing options.  International teams (unless you have 5 if 6 from 1 club side) seems to work best when you rely on pace and people who can beat their man to open sides up, rather than orchestrated combination play, this would benefit walker over trent and perhaps james too.  When Southgate says Trippier is better allround, I'm not sure if he in part means his ability to play lb as well as RB

I think it means he doesn't really understand football and footballers, to be honest. Also, Southgate is risk averse, he thinks his defensive set-up will allow England to nick matches 1-0. He may have noticed his side don't really score goals at the minute and can't stop conceding them either. You are not wrong though, he does not see the benefit is Trent's laser-like passing, as he has not encouraged or orchestrated combination play from England's forwards. You don't see England switch the play much, nor do they use long passing to find the likes of Sterling and Kane quickly to create openings. Southgate has concluded he doesn't need Trent's strengths and he prefers others who on the surface don't have his weaknesses.

In Gareth's monocrome world TAA's terrific crossing of a football, excellent long-range passing and ability with both feet are not bonuses on a football pitch, neither his ability with a set-piece (direct and indirect).

We will await with baited breath to see if Gareth takes Trent to sit around waiting for the inevitable crisis that is surely heading England's way...

[jillcwhomever]

According to the present England manager Trippier's all round game is better than Trent's. I mean even a Manc journalist has rubbished that assessment. He really is an idiot Southgate.

[keyop]

All those who are Going to play in 40 degrees heat is going to come back knackered. I hope England go all the way to the final and then lose it.

City might end up with Walker, Stones, Grealish, Phillips and Foden in the England squad, plus most of their key players are in teams that could go far (Ederson, Laporte, Cancelo, Dias, De Bruyne, Silva, Gundogan, Alvarez). If England, Brazil, Belgium, Portugal and Spain make the latter stages, then City will have a lot of tired players.

Hopefully Trent gets left out altogether rather than messed around. If Southgate thinks Walker, Tripper and James are better for his system, then fine - but don't take Trent to be a bench warmer. He can stay at home and spend 6 weeks relaxing and training with Robbo, Konate, Tsimikas, Gomez, Matip, Ramsay, Ox, Keita, Jones, Elliot, Milner, Carvalho, Diaz and Mo.

Bobby and Thiago are also not guaranteed a call up, so we could almost have a full squad together whilst most of City's are slogging it out in the desert, and Halaand's stuck in Manchester practising shots against Scott Carson.

[killer-heels]

City might end up with Walker, Stones, Grealish, Phillips and Foden in the England squad, plus most of their key players are in teams that could go far (Ederson, Laporte, Cancelo, Dias, De Bruyne, Silva, Gundogan, Alvarez). If England, Brazil, Belgium, Portugal and Spain make the latter stages, then City will have a lot of tired players.

Hopefully Trent gets left out altogether rather than messed around. If Southgate thinks Walker, Tripper and James are better for his system, then fine - but don't take Trent to be a bench warmer. He can stay at home and spend 6 weeks relaxing and training with Robbo, Konate, Tsimikas, Gomez, Matip, Ramsay, Ox, Keita, Jones, Elliot, Milner, Carvalho, Diaz and Mo.

Bobby and Thiago are also not guaranteed a call up, so we could almost have a full squad together whilst most of City's are slogging it out in the desert, and Halaand's stuck in Manchester practising shots against Scott Carson.

We have such an opportunity post the World cup, which is why our form thus far has been so frustrating. We need to really go on a decent run because we can still challenge.

[keyop]

I'm not sure I understand the argument about Trent not fitting Southgate's system. National sides don't really have systems. There's not enough time, even before big tournaments, for a manager to implement a competent system. At best they choose a defensive formation and a set of attacking principles that allows the best players to play their natural game. The national team manager is more of an advisor to the players more than a trainer. That has been a key to Brazil and Germany's international success. Spain's and Croatia's, too. It's why the Dutch and England often fall apart in the end, and the U.S. substantially over or under performs tournament to tournament. Trent should be in the national side. He is one of England's best players--without question. Systems my arse. Southgate will never win a major tournament if he is picking players for his system.   

I think that's true to a point, although many national sides tend to broadly reflect their home league's style. Germany are organised and compact, Italy defensive, Spain more about possession/tiki-taka, France more free-flowing, Holland total football, Brazil more flair/creative, etc.

England haven't really had an identity since the 80's/90's, despite having some squads with great potential down the years - especially between 2004 and 2006 which was our best crop in 40 years. If anything, the England identity has always been far more about God save the Queen, the 3 Lions/It's coming home, beer, tatoos, and the British bulldog than it has ever been about anything seen on the pitch.

[keyop]

We have such an opportunity post the World cup, which is why our form thus far has been so frustrating. We need to really go on a decent run because we can still challenge.

It's been frustrating, but fatigue from last season plus injuries have undoubtedly been a massive factor. I'd be more worried if we'd had an average 2021/22 season, a fully fit squad and a normal mid-august start, but were still looking sluggish.

That's why this unexpected and extended break plus the world cup could turn the season in our favour. What our squad needed more than anything was rest and recovery time, and Jurgen must be delighted that so many of our players aren't going to Qatar. I think it would hurt Trent more to travel and not be involved than to be left out altogether, which is why Southgate should just accept his own managerial/tactical limitations and let him stay with his club.

[TheShanklyGates]

Trent Alexander-Arnold's England omission by Gareth Southgate risks wasting a world-class talent
Adam Bate

England have some good players but not many who could be deemed world-class in their role. Trent Alexander-Arnold falls into that category having been an integral part of a Liverpool team that has won every trophy that could be won in the past four years.

Alas, he has found winning over the England manager Gareth Southgate more difficult and the result is that his chances of featuring at the forthcoming World Cup are fading. Omitted from the squad on Monday night, the verdict on his status was plain.

"The other night, we did not need the left-back cover," said Southgate. "Against Germany we did because of the way we went with the team so we needed Chilly on the bench and we had Kieran who, at the moment, I feel his all-round game is ahead."

Kieran Trippier is a fine player, a title winner with Atletico Madrid who is now impressing at Newcastle. The 32-year-old defender has Southgate's trust and boasts an impressive array of statistics of his own that prove he is capable of contributing to the attacking phase.

And yet, it still feels unsatisfactory. The feeling seems to be that Alexander-Arnold's defensive flaws are so damning that his extraordinary gifts are not enough to make up the shortfall. The conclusion is that a mixed start to the season has not helped.

But this is not really about form. Southgate's doubts about Alexander-Arnold predate a shoddy showing against Manchester United and a nightmare in Naples. He has had only three starts for England since Euro 2020 and none of them have come at right-back.

His travails with England are a new twist on an old trope. While Glenn Hoddle could not be accommodated within the straight lines of a midfield quartet, Alexander-Arnold appears to be an awkward fit for Southgate in either a flat-back four or the wing-back position.

He has introduced us to the concept of the maverick right-back.

The clue to the befuddlement that Alexander-Arnold was causing his international manager came last September when he was given a rare start against Andorra - in midfield. The experiment lasted half a game with Alexander-Arnold left confused by the position.

"That was kind of what went wrong," he acknowledged. "Being in there already, standing in there and then trying to find space rather than going in there unexpectedly and confusing the opposition and just feeling the freedom to drift in there whenever I felt was right."

Trent Alexander-Arnold's heatmap and passing sonar for Liverpool this season



That freedom is harder to grant at international level where the temptation is always there to go with a more perfunctory alternative, a ready-made fit. But the problem with the 'all-round game' argument is that it does not account for the specialist.

Perhaps it is worth recounting some of Alexander-Arnold's numbers so there can be no downplaying the significance of his exclusion. Since the last World Cup, only Kevin De Bruyne has provided more assists in the Premier League or created more chances.

Trent Alexander-Arnold's stats for Liverpool



Alexander-Arnold's total for expected assists is actually higher than De Bruyne - and everyone else. He tops the rankings for successful crosses and chances created from set plays. Elements that can be considered of particular importance in international football.

In this context, bemoaning Alexander-Arnold's weaknesses deserves the same contempt one might regard someone who focuses on Lionel Messi's heading ability or a music critic who takes the time to tell you that Jimi Hendrix was not a whizz on the tuba.

It also brings to mind the selection meeting for an England cricket tour of yesteryear when one of the key decision-makers saw fit to opine of Graham Thorpe, then the country's premier batsman: 'But what does he bring to the team other than runs?'

Jurgen Klopp recognises this instinctively.

Rather than trying to mould him into something that he is not, he has constructed a team that makes the most of his strengths, utilising that very specific skill set for maximum advantage. It has helped Alexander-Arnold be the best that he can be.



Encouraged to roam forwards, Jordan Henderson and Fabinho are there to cover for him. Nominally, Alexander-Arnold is a defender but that is not his function in the Liverpool team. Put simply, he is on the pitch to make things happen not to prevent them happening.

It is why he will flourish again in a Liverpool shirt. It is also why there might be no chance to prove Southgate wrong in an England one.

Expect Alexander-Arnold to continue to wow with his passing. He will send in the crosses from high up the pitch on that right flank and he will accumulate the assists. He might even avoid the high-profile defensive errors that have drawn such negative attention.

But he will do so in a role that does not exist with England.

And so a nation distracts itself with talk of whether Brentford's striker should be the back-up option. It explores the relative merits of a gaggle of middling goalkeepers. Meanwhile, this special footballer is likely to find himself on the outside looking in.

A solution dressed up as a problem.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12706837/trent-alexander-arnolds-england-omission-by-gareth-southgate-risks-wasting-a-world-class-talent

Thought this piece from Sky Sports was worth sharing. England's loss is Liverpool's gain.

[Ghost Town]

Not a bad job, that, from Master Bate. Better than the usual wank from Sky

[Schmidt]

The media love shitting all over Trent when he plays for us and then shitting all over Southgate when he doesn't play for England, says more about them than it does about him.

I wish they'd fuck off with the love in and move on, Trent plays so much for us with so many quick turnarounds between games, it feels like he really needs those rests around internationals. I realise it would be disappointing for him, but having him stay at the club during this pile of shit WC would be fantastic for us.

[redk84]

if they're stupid enough not to play him, better for us

He'll get his form back in the next run of games

[Too early for flapjacks?]

You can just see him putting in a stormer on Saturday.

[Knight]

Let me preface this with I hate England's dour and defensive attitude and whilst it almost worked last time it is unlikely to keep working when our CBs are a bit rubbish and we don't have a controlling midfield player. So in short, Southgate isn't very good at managing England.

That said, I can understand Southgate looking at the way our fullbacks play, thinking, 'but I want mine to be much more conservative' and not picking him. It's possible he can play the defensive right back role like Southgate wants but it's a long way from his natural game. Plus the likes of James get way more cricticism from us than is fair. James is a very good player. Walker is perfect for what Southgate wants from his fullbacks (assuming he's not losing his pace). What's more bizarre is, given Southgate already quite likes wingbacks, Trent still doesn't get opportunities. If you want to play wingbacks Trent becomes an absolutely outstanding option even for Southgate. And yet still Southgate doesn't pick him?!?

[RedForeverTT]

Let me preface this with I hate England's dour and defensive attitude and whilst it almost worked last time it is unlikely to keep working when our CBs are a bit rubbish and we don't have a controlling midfield player. So in short, Southgate isn't very good at managing England.

That said, I can understand Southgate looking at the way our fullbacks play, thinking, 'but I want mine to be much more conservative' and not picking him. It's possible he can play the defensive right back role like Southgate wants but it's a long way from his natural game. Plus the likes of James get way more cricticism from us than is fair. James is a very good player. Walker is perfect for what Southgate wants from his fullbacks (assuming he's not losing his pace). What's more bizarre is, given Southgate already quite likes wingbacks, Trent still doesn't get opportunities. If you want to play wingbacks Trent becomes an absolutely outstanding option even for Southgate. And yet still Southgate doesn't pick him?!?

Southgate likes setting up England to play with their backs to the wall. Did you see how desperate our defending was against Germany? Trent is never going to look good playing in this kind of football.

Even with the ball on Trent’s feet, he would find it completely hopeless with a static Kane as the only man up the pitch.

[CowboyKangaroo]

No guarantee he starts ahead of reece james (or perhaps even walker), even IF southgate is replaced after the WC. 

Everyone makes mistakes, and Trent could be the best attacking FB we have seen potentially, but his lack of reaction to people running in behind him is alarming

Of course there's no guarantee that he starts if there's a new manager, but not based on his quality. Its based on memetic nonsense perceptions that you yourself have fallen for. No competent England manager should have any doubt in their mind whether they start their best player.

[Morgana]

Has anyone even talked about Reese James over the last 2 seasons when Chelsea loses or ships a bunch of goals?

It has always felt to me like Trent was the scapegoat for England, and it started with the media berating him even each time  Liverpool conceded a goal over the years, even when we conceded the fewest goals and had the best defence in the league. On the rare occasions when Robertson lost a ball BT reporters would still contrive to blame Trent.

Am not saying he doesn’t make mistakes; it has always been the case that his mistakes are magnified and discussed ad infinitum while others’ get ignored and brushed away. Classic scapegoat.

[killer-heels]

Thought Klopp was a bit more measured and even handed about the Trent subject. He didnt hammer Southgate as expected and even talked about Trent having to improve in some situations.

[keyop]

The whole narrative around Trent in recent months is complete horseshit, and based broadly on two typical approaches to 'analysis' by lazy pundits and fans. Namely:

1. The need to find flaws. He is so supremely talented at passing, crossing, shooting, set pieces, vision, and assists that surely there must be something else to write about. Bad news sells, plus it has the added bonus of stoking the tribalism bullshit on social media.

2. Confirmation bias. Pundits, journalists and rival fans are actively looking for errors - desperate to find something to back up the narrative to which they're fully subscribed and committed. Highlight any mistakes and turn a blind eye to anything good. Show a clip of him jogging back instead of footage of him carving open the opposition with a pass. It's almost become fashionable to criticise him, and everyone just jumps on the bandwagon like sheep.

What we haven't seen is any proper analysis of Trent's defensive stats compared to other top defenders in the PL or Europe. Why? Because those stats would likely show that every top defender makes mistakes, every top defender is occasionally caught out of position, and every top defender loses his marker once in a while (even Virgil). But no-one else can do what Trent does going forward, so let's knock him down a peg or two to get some media engagement.

If any of the fuckwits on Sky, BT Sport, ESPN or any other media outlet could actually demonstrate that Trent's defensive stats justify the drivel they broadcast repeatedly, then I'd have a modicum of respect for their opinions. But the longer they repeat the lazy and cliched headlines (as they did with Mo and 'diving' a few years back), then it's all just hot air for clicks, and playing to your average dumb armchair fan for bantz.

We've been utterly spoilt by his brilliance for 4 seasons. Yet as as soon as he falls a little short of those incredible standards (as most of the team have - unsurprisingly after last season), or he can't get a start for an England team managed by a complete amateur, he's jumped on by braindead journalist hacks, or goons like Ferdinand, Neville or the muppetry that is Talksport. The criticism from rival fans is particularly funny, as deep down they know they can only dream of having a player of his quality in their team.

[killer-heels]

^ works for us though. I dont really want him playing for England so its great.

[lgvkarlos]

^ works for us though. I dont really want him playing for England so its great.

Yep, need to thank Southgate really.
 
If I could give Trent one bit of advice it would to start Smiling again, over the last few years he looks so moody/can't be arsed. Even when he scores he does the nonchalant celebration.

[RedBec1993]

Has anyone even talked about Reese James over the last 2 seasons when Chelsea loses or ships a bunch of goals?

It has always felt to me like Trent was the scapegoat for England, and it started with the media berating him even each time  Liverpool conceded a goal over the years, even when we conceded the fewest goals and had the best defence in the league. On the rare occasions when Robertson lost a ball BT reporters would still contrive to blame Trent.

Am not saying he doesn’t make mistakes; it has always been the case that his mistakes are magnified and discussed ad infinitum while others’ get ignored and brushed away. Classic scapegoat.

It’s been this way with Trent ever since he came on the scene, people picking holes in his game. He makes mistakes, doesn’t every player? People forget how young he still is. Everytime we concede a goal now, as klopp said it’s “where was Trent?” Even if it wasn’t down his side. It’s bizarre. He’s a phenomenal player on his day.