Topic: I'm really genuinely concerned...no rant intended

[MatthewRedBlood]

By this logic, I take it we should praise Moores and Parry for winning the Champions League and FA Cup and absolve Roy from any blame for how shite we were under him because it was the owners/CEOs who employed them or does this only apply to FSG and Kenny

High five.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

There's a difference between saying "I think Kenny made a mistake signing this player" and "I think Kenny should go because of these signings".

I don't know why you'd think we have an oversized squad, it wasn't big enough to cope with three competitions last year so with the addition of Europe we're still short. We needed another full back, defensive midfielder, wide player and striker last season - after Maxi, Dirk, Aquilani, Carroll, Bellamy all gone/rumoured to be going how does that leave us with dead weight? If we held onto all those players, we'd still have a comparable squad to the others in the top end of the table.

Our squad size was alright last season we just didn't have alot of players who were of the required level at the time.

[Finn Solomon]

Not employed Comolli. A mate of mine laughed his bollocks and was told he would fuck up the club.

Kenny's targets may have been average, but the money spent on them is what is crippling us because at present, money appears to be our issue. That's down to whoever employed Comolli.

I have no problem with them shifting Aquilani and Carroll etc. in an effrot to recoup funds but that scramble is largely a result of them employing a proven mug to negotiate their transfers.

They've learned, now they're not hiring any Directors or Transfer gurus at all.

[tomred]

Not employed Comolli. A mate of mine laughed his bollocks and was told he would fuck up the club.

Kenny's targets may have been average, but the money spent on them is what is crippling us because at present, money appears to be our issue. That's down to whoever employed Comolli.

I have no problem with them shifting Aquilani and Carroll etc. in an effrot to recoup funds but that scramble is largely a result of them employing a proven mug to negotiate their transfers.

Question for you Johnny. How do you break down responsibility for that between Kenny and Comolli, given Kenny's public statements that the buck lied with him?

[SMD]

Correct. I have my opinion, the only one that matters really is that of the owners and we know which one it was. They clearly expected more of their money (You'd be a liar if you said you were happy with how the money was spent).

And by what metric do the owners know whether or not their money has been spent well? Berbatov was signed for £30m, unbalanced United's front line and was generally average for them compared to Tevez in his first season. Second season was slightly better but third season he was phenomenal, their best striker and helped them win the league.

[tomred]

but I think to suggest the Suarez affair played no part at all in him leaving is wrong.

Is there anyone suggesting that?

[Johnnyboy1973]

Question for you Johnny. How do you break down responsibility for that between Kenny and Comolli, given Kenny's public statements that the buck lied with him?

As I say, Kenny identified average targets, but Comolli paying well over the odds is what is crippling us because not only does it make the pot smaller but it makes said players impossible to shift with incurring a loss.

[Fat Scouser]

Any proof of that?

Henry stated Kenny was removed because during this calendar year (19 league games) we were sat in 17th place. Now I don't care who is manager of this club, that is simply unnacceptable and is a 100% valid reason for sacking any manager of this club, especially one given the financial backing he was given. To say he was sacked because of the Suarez incident is absolute guesswork.

Okey Doke

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

except Kenny was never part of their plans in the long term so would he still be here?

Had the players performed better it far too simplistic, Kenny was a plaster on a massive gash in the club and between the fans at the time, he put back together  the fanbase and most of the club, now they have removed the plaster and chucked it in the bin job done go back to plan A the young coach!

On the first point, Kenny was never their choice but the results after 6 months convinced them to stick with him and back him in the market. They did that and soon decided it wasn't working.

The rest of what you say just screams BS to me

[MatthewRedBlood]

Not employed Comolli. A mate of mine laughed his bollocks and was told he would fuck up the club.

Kenny's targets may have been average, but the money spent on them is what is crippling us because at present, money appears to be our issue. That's down to whoever employed Comolli.

I have no problem with them shifting Aquilani and Carroll etc. in an effrot to recoup funds but that scramble is largely a result of them employing a proven mug to negotiate their transfers.

Maybe they were naive employing Comolli but at essence they gave football people money to make football decisions. Yes they may have made a mistake employing Comolli, but would you prefer it the other way around, have a world class scouting network, manager and DOF and give fuck all.

Being blamed for our misgivings in the window, in my opinion is excuse making to cover the back of Mr Kenny Dalglish, who completely fucked our biggest transfer budget in my lifetime. Had we bought better, we'd of played better, and not a single person would question the owners, because we'd have a good team. Conversely, we got given it, fucked it up, and now people are spitting their dummies out because they won't hand over another 100 million. Yes it's a football club but we're a business, and handing over 100m net now, given our previous dealings, is something they're never going to do. They've had their hands burnt, so i've no idea why people are so shocked they don't want to ante up again.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

He was sacked before the Carling Cup final.

Why did he go to Boston then?

Is there any proof or are we supposed to just believe you

[MatthewRedBlood]

And by what metric do the owners know whether or not their money has been spent well? Berbatov was signed for £30m, unbalanced United's front line and was generally average for them compared to Tevez in his first season. Second season was slightly better but third season he was phenomenal, their best striker and helped them win the league.

In a different class to Carroll, and was Premier League top scorer in his time at United. Had Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney and Henderandez for competition. Was a superb player at spurs, maybe not worth 30 million, but easily worth 20. Are you saying that all our signings will come good? Wishful thinking if you are.

[And Could He Play]

Why did he go to Boston then?

Is there any proof or are we supposed to just believe you

its true.

[Gnurglan]

Exactly. Problem is, people always need to point the finger. Can you blame Kenny for buying the players? It makes you a bad fan apparently so it's not his fault.

It's a good month until the end of the transfer window, we've had a lot of departures, and i think people are panicking thinking "FSG are tearing the club apart". Whereas i see that it's fairly obvious we'll be seeing new people come in towards the deadline day.

If they did it the opposite way for instance, done all the business at the start of the window, and had a massive over sized squad, Brendan and the owners would be accused of hanging onto dead weight, and not being ruthless enough.

Some people you just can't please

FSG backed Kenny on transfers. They gave him lots of money and they allowed players to be signed early. We can't fault them for that. I wasn't impressed with the way we handled the Suarez/Evra thing, but I'll put that aside.

That Kenny and Comolli could be sacked was a given. It wasn't necessarily the right choice, but there was a clear case for it. Where things get a bit strange is after they were sacked. Not even a double cup win would have saved Kenny, but will the same be true for Rodgers? And when Comolli came, he was going to be central to everything. We then realised he did too much. So did we offer him help? No we sacked him and abandoned the structure we had in mind. Why? Because probably the least experienced manager we spoke with said so. We gave Rodgers the powers we were not willing to give Kenny, nor Capello, van Gaal, AVB, Benitez etc. Will we now expect Rodgers to finish top four, or have we lowered our expectations? We shall soon see. Either way, we've put ourselves in another corner.

When it comes to the departures this summer, I don't panic because we have seen two-three exits. It's the choice of players we have parted with that I question and how little money we have gained (or rather, that we have managed to lose money on their exits). With them gone, if that's our new standard, then we have many players left to sell. I just don't think it will happen. We'll keep them.

When I then apply a critical eye on things, it may be that 2+2=7, but still, I'm beginning to wonder if we are not seeing a structured lowering of expectations. Where we accept that mid-table is where we are going to be for a while. I don't see much evidence that we're moving in the right direction.

[Fat Scouser]

I'm not doubting you FS. Just asking the question. I think your view that Kenny's sacking was motivated by the Suarez affair needs to be backed by evidence. I'm saying so in a non-confrontational way.

It's a website mate. Names can't be named. If they were, there'd be mutiny. If they aren't, people will scream bollocks and ask for proof. But you will never find 100% proof of anything on here. So, whether I knew something or not, in the end, you have to look at all the evidence, weigh everything up and make a decision. It's not my job to make anyone's mind up. I have a view of people that manage hedge funds and invest in business's that they know nothing about. FSG are such a company. I know what I think of them. I've stated it on here many times. And like I said, when this lot go it's more than likely the next lot will be exactly the same. In fact, they could be far worse as I don't think stewardship of the  club will be FSG's main concern when they do eventually go.

[Eeyore]

The fans were signing for Kenny when Roy was in charge.

Roy got sacked.

Kenny got put in. I think it's fair to say everyone was happy.

Kenny manages to reinvigorate the squad, and we pick up the second most points of anyone in the second half of the season.

All is well. Kenny is given an extended deal.

Kenny as an absolute fucking disaster in the window spending massive amounts of money on average players, the team finish 8th.

Kenny is shown the door

Liverpool fans on RAWK then blame the owners for A. Appointing Kenny in the first place because he wasn't the owners choice despite doing this to please the fans, and avoid potential riots had he not been appointed. B. Sacking Kenny and other staff for the deals they made with money given to them.

I'm astounded at how fucking stupid this thread is.

We need people in charge who make the right decisions not the popular decisions.

The people in charge of the Club are supposed to be the knowledgeable ones, fuck me how stupid can you be to try and blame the fans. If you listened to the fans then you would take half your team outside and shoot them after every defeat.

Players play, managers manage and Directors provide direction they don't pander to the fans otherwise you would have twenty managers a season. 

[Mutton Geoff]

They've learned, now they're not hiring any Directors or Transfer gurus at all.

they were right up to rogers telling the media they were not, check Ayres face!

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

As I say, Kenny identified average targets, but Comolli paying well over the odds is what is crippling us because not only does it make the pot smaller but it makes said players impossible to shift with incurring a loss.

It goes both ways mate, if we had got the right target when we had the money to spend we'd be alright

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

its true.

It's not, it's really not

You've got Kenny and Clarke watching games all over Europe, why would he do this is he had already been sacked? Why would he go to all the way to Boston when his fate was already decided.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Sorry, but that sounds like a sentimental argument designed to give Kenny a pass and lay the blame on Comolli no matter what. I'm not in the business of defending Comolli but we have to be fair about this.

How is it giving Kenny a pass? I've said his targets were poor. But, Comolli paid over the odds for them. He negotiated the fees. It's thats simple, just ask the fat fuck at the barcodes. It's no suprise though, Comolli was proven to be shite. The ultimate idiot is whoever employed him.

[Mutton Geoff]

It's not

whats this pantomime season?

A few here happy to sail with FSG given the vitriol they used against a legend after every draw last season!

[Johnnyboy1973]

It goes both ways mate, if we had got the right target when we had the money to spend we'd be alright

But, if you negotiate properly and it turns out you have identified the wrong target then you will lose little if any when selling.

[Eeyore]

It's not

It is true mate there where plenty of us who knew and more than enough PM's to confirm it.

[Fat Scouser]

I will buy your book tomorrow BTW. I'm in Japan so I guess I'll take a hit on P&P but that's ok.

I haven't even read the rest of your post yet... don't do it. There'll be a downloadable version in a week or so. I'm getting it done so people outside the UK don't have to pay P&P.

[Melbred]

But, if you negotiate properly and it turns out you have identified the wrong target then you will lose little if any when selling.

In other words, I think it can be established that they were both clearly at fault.

[MatthewRedBlood]

--------------------------Reina-----------------------

Johnson--------Skrtel-----Agger----------Enrique    (decent for the money)

--------------Lucas-------(16 million on a CM)----

(20 million for a winger)----Gerrard-----Suarez

-----------------35 million for a forward-----------


I can't even be fucking bothered listing the amount of players we could put in those places for the amount of money we spent FM style. But look at it. The basis of the team is ok, and it's ironic the areas we need to improve now, are all the ones Kenny/Comolli spent in. Think what that money could of done. Think where we could of ended. I wish we had that budget now.

[Eeyore]

--------------------------Reina-----------------------

Johnson--------Skrtel-----Agger----------Enrique    (decent for the money)

--------------Lucas-------(16 million on a CM)----

(20 million for a winger)----Gerrard-----Suarez

-----------------35 million for a forward-----------


I can't even be fucking bothered listing the amount of players we could put in those places for the amount of money we spent FM style. But look at it. The basis of the team is ok, and it's ironic the areas we need to improve now, are all the ones Kenny/Comolli spent in. Think what that money could of done. Think where we could of ended. I wish we had that budget now.

The problem is that 5 of those players FSG inherited.

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

I admit, the same could be said about me. I hate rich fat cats and thieving businessmen. I have no time for anyone that has hedge fund mentioned in the same sentence as them. I have no time for FSG (whoever that may be). I have no time for Henry, Werner or Ayre.

But just take a step back and look at the big picture. Take your emotions out of it. Stop being so entrenched in one camp or another. Look at FSG's arrival and time spent here from a nuetral perspective. I know what I see. I think the whole thing is pretty obvious, and I don't think it takes a Mystic Meg to see where it's headed. Once again, I admit, my mind is already made up when it comes to capitalism and capitalists. But I'm looking at this through the common sense of a 55 year old man that cut his teeth in The Boy's Pen... FSG couldn't give a fuck about anything but money. They'll sell up when they think the time is right for maximum profit. The next lot in behind them won't be any different.

This is modern day football. If I wasn't 55 years old and hadn't cut me teeth in The Pen, I'd turn me back on it, never look back and not give a fuck. I've actually tried to do just that, but the club is ingrained in me and I'll never be able to just stop caring. These fuckers are ruining our club and our game, in just the same manner as they have fucked everything else. LFC/Football means nothing to these people. The bottom line is the almighty dollar. Anyone denying that and defending them is either daft or devious. The sooner the whole thing collapses and the rebuilding starts, the better.

Agree 100% with this. The leeches are everywhere. Turning away is very hard though. Hasta la revolucion. Nothing means anything to these people. Not football, not Liverpool, not life, nothing, as you say, except the almighty dollar.

[MatthewRedBlood]

The problem is that 5 of those players FSG inherited.

By that you're saying they're hell bent on having their own team away from the Rafa era? Ironically they're still all our best players + Suarez. everyone bought since is average compared with what we have/what we had previous.

[Fat Scouser]

I will buy your book tomorrow BTW. I'm in Japan so I guess I'll take a hit on P&P but that's ok. I don't agree with your point above at all by the way, but that's by the by. I am still asking why you think the Suarez thing was the main factor. As for hedge fund managers, they are no more or no less wankers than the rest of us, but that is a philosophical argument about class that has no place in this thread and that you could easily have me lynched for. By the way I am not a hedge fund manager.

That's the difference. I do think there's room for this philosophical discussion in any and every discussion, let alone football or LFC. As for hedge fund managers and bankers in general, I blame them for just about every ill in the world. Of course, there's other villians in the piece, but to my mind, the bankers are the absolute root of all the world's woes. So, I don't think you'll be enjoying anything I wrote, let alone a 400 page book that basically wants to hang all bankers.

 

[Melbred]

The problem is that 5 of those players FSG inherited.

How is that even remotely a problem? That we had a strong basis to build upon? Bloody ridiculous.

They made the money available so that we could build around the strong foundation we already had, and the money was spurned by Kenny/Comolli.

[Mumm-Ra]

--------------------------Reina-----------------------

Johnson--------Skrtel-----Agger----------Enrique    (decent for the money)

--------------Lucas-------(16 million on a CM)----

(20 million for a winger)----Gerrard-----Suarez

-----------------35 million for a forward-----------


I can't even be fucking bothered listing the amount of players we could put in those places for the amount of money we spent FM style. But look at it. The basis of the team is ok, and it's ironic the areas we need to improve now, are all the ones Kenny/Comolli spent in. Think what that money could of done. Think where we could of ended. I wish we had that budget now.

Sickening and true. You've made some top posts here today by the way.

[Something Awful]

We need people in charge who make the right decisions not the popular decisions.

The people in charge of the Club are supposed to be the knowledgeable ones, fuck me how stupid can you be to try and blame the fans. If you listened to the fans then you would take half your team outside and shoot them after every defeat.

Players play, managers manage and Directors provide direction they don't pander to the fans otherwise you would have twenty managers a season.

And yet you want fan ownership.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

But, if you negotiate properly and it turns out you have identified the wrong target then you will lose little if any when selling.

With the fees and wages we were ready to pay we should have been shopping at a very different market

[Fat Scouser]

Ok, thanks. I'll hold off.

After me last post, you might want to swerve it completely.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

It is true mate there where plenty of us who knew and more than enough PM's to confirm it.

Yeah, easy to say that now isn't it. It simply isn't true. Was he just watching targets for fun after that?

[Redeo]

It's a website mate. Names can't be named. If they were, there'd be mutiny. If they aren't, people will scream bollocks and ask for proof. But you will never find 100% proof of anything on here. So, whether I knew something or not, in the end, you have to look at all the evidence, weigh everything up and make a decision.

Ha! Gold FS, gold!

[Johnnyboy1973]

With the fees and wages we were ready to pay we should have been shopping at a very different market

True, but if we paid the relevant fees and wages for the market we ended up shopping at we wouldn't be looking at taking the hit we will on Carroll.

The owners ultimately only have themselves to blame for employing the wrong people in key positions. Let's hope they have been better judges this time.

[Fat Scouser]

Alright. If you're genuinely interested in having this discussion count me in. I can do it here or wherever the mods deem appropriate. I'll have some views that you won't agree with--but what I am certain of is that you'll listen to them and respond rationally. For starters I think your view that bankers and their ilk are the root of all woes is hugely simplistic, and again I'm not a banker.

Of course, it's simplistic. I'm a simple man. Football's a simple game. The money men are ruining it, much like they ruined every other form of working class entertainment. And I'll certainly discuss you on that any time, any where. But you're probably right that this isn't the right place to discuss the evils of capitalism and it's money making system. I'm up for it though, but first of all I need to call me nephew back who's just called me and then, if you want, we can talk about the robber barrons that are fucking this planet up, never mind it's best game.

[Solomon Grundy]

i think you and others need to separate comments about FSG from backing the manager most fans will back Rogers win, lose or draw, except for the after match clowns,  its what we do, he isn't FSG he took on a great opportunity for him so no blame there, and it is possible to support the club and the manager and not support FSG.

Thats fine if you do that, but there are still some on here waiting for BR to fail so they can I say 'I told you so' because they never wanted him here and will take every opportunity to winge and moan like fuck about the owners hiring him in the first place.