Topic: Luis Suarez - FA guilty charge and LFC Statement (*)

[Prince]

Negrito might not be a reference to a person's colour at all.  I've read quite a few articles mentioning that it is a neutral term used in a manner similar to mate or pal.  I think that list of players that had nicknames with versions of the term negrito might say something.  A number of players of varying skin tones seem to have been given the nickname.  So lets get this straight, negrito may not be a reference to colour at all in Spanish.

Poyet thinks, as others have suggested, that Suarez might have used the word "negrito", and that it was misinterpreted by Evra. "In Uruguay it is a nickname for someone whose skin is darker than the rest,"

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/gus-poyet-negrito-isnt-an-offensive-term-16082510.html

[LFC when it suits]

I accept and I think everyone accepts that the word in question is not neccesarily racist. But it can be used in a racially abusive context. Which when you consider the circumstances, having an argument with Evra (and allegedly repeating the word), there's a strong chance it was used to wind him up.

How do you feel about LFC's statement asking for Evra to be charged for the comments that he has alledgly made regarding the ethnicity of Suarez?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is not entirely true. negrito is also used to refer to those that are not black but have dark features.

That's not entirely true either

In this case, the diminutive negrito is used, as a term of endearment meaning "pal", "buddy" or "friend". Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English (in the Philippines, negrito was used for a local dark-skinned short person, living in the Negros islands among other places).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

[royhendo]

Regardless of the blah blah, it'll end up in CAS.

That's about the only incident-related speculation worth bothering about for now.

Beyond that, it's about a dignified united front.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Poyet thinks, as others have suggested, that Suarez might have used the word "negrito", and that it was misinterpreted by Evra. "In Uruguay it is a nickname for someone whose skin is darker than the rest,"

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premiership/gus-poyet-negrito-isnt-an-offensive-term-16082510.html

In this case, the diminutive negrito is used, as a term of endearment meaning "pal", "buddy" or "friend". Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English (in the Philippines, negrito was used for a local dark-skinned short person, living in the Negros islands among other places).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

[LFC when it suits]

That's not entirely true either

In this case, the diminutive negrito is used, as a term of endearment meaning "pal", "buddy" or "friend". Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English (in the Philippines, negrito was used for a local dark-skinned short person, living in the Negros islands among other places).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negro

Thank you for the correction. I guess that further proves the point I was trying to make.

[Timbo's Goals]

This is where we disagree slightly, Bob. Because make no mistake - Liverpool FC and Liverpool the City have been attacked from all fucking sides for more years than I care to remember. Every year there is another attack from a new source. It's been going on since Thatcher and her Cronies and even before then. Look at the average opinion of your average 'Englishman' about Liverpool.

I'm in a different boat than some because I'm not originally from Liverpool - I'm not a Scouser, but I've lived here for 25 years.

I have lived outside Liverpool and I live in it now and I see what is flung at the City and the Club and the people is utterly unfair. In many cases it's bigoted. I can see it and be objective about it because I always remember what was said about "Scousers" and their "City".

When I first worked in Liverpool I was literally terrified. I remembered all the papers and the press more or less saying everyone there was benefit scum, would kill you if they had the chance and were basically evil. I was terrified.

And then I came across the lovliest, friendliest people I'd personally met in the UK. I came to a vibrant City proud of its past and although in trouble financially proud of its future to come. I found warmth, decency, quiet brilliance and acceptance.

And I've lived here ever since.

And yet look around even now - the same shite about 'Scousers' the same shite about the City. The same shite about Liverpool FC.

I may not be a Scouser but I'm fucking proud of this place, it's people and both Clubs. I used to live in other places in England but if they don't like us then fuck them.

This has been going on for decades.

Bravo Andy. Well in. You do talk some shite - like us all  - but your heart is most definitely in the right place.

Why not send it to the Echo? Locals will love it. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

See above. I can't show you them because they've been deleted after I reported them.

So if they've been deleted stop throwing random bits of shite around.

[Bouncer]

Only Suarez and possibly Evra would know this but seeing as LFC are publicly backing suarez. Suarez must have told them he didnt use it in a racist way and Evra also says that he believes Suarez is not a racist.

So why didn't the septic little prick and his club stop it there and then ... We will not end up the worse for this it will be te FA, Evra, the Press and Slurgoson. I imagine all of them
Are secretly cacking themselves.

[mercurial]

Still, "mate" can refer to anyone from any race whereas "negr(it)o" refers to specifically darker skinned people. It is undeniably a reference to skin colour/race. You cannot erase that from the word, Suarez would have been aware of that. Correct?

I accept and I think everyone accepts that the word in question is not neccesarily racist. But it can be used in a racially abusive context. Which when you consider the circumstances, having an argument with Evra (and allegedly repeating the word), there's a strong chance it was used to wind him up.

That part in bold is the assumption you are making. An assumption which we who do not speak spanish should not attempt. Many people here who do speak spanish have posted to say that is exactly what the word does not mean. They said in Uruguay it does not have any reference to a colour bias. Its a common term applied irrespective of your skin colour is what I understood. I would not even try to sort of understand more than that. Best left to language experts and people who have a cultural knowledge of Uruguay.

[Dr Manhattan]

Isn't this 'Prince' guy the person who someone took a snapshot of on a manc forum two days ago saying he was going to change his avatar to the very picture he's now using to wind us up?

[belfast-connection]

Still, "mate" can refer to anyone from any race whereas "negr(it)o" refers to specifically darker skinned people. It is undeniably a reference to skin colour/race. You cannot erase that from the word, Suarez would have been aware of that. Correct?

I accept and I think everyone accepts that the word in question is not neccesarily racist. But it can be used in a racially abusive context. Which when you consider the circumstances, having an argument with Evra (and allegedly repeating the word), there's a strong chance it was used to wind him up.

you're working on the same assumption that it appears the panel did that the phrase's etymology governs its current meaning

the phrase literally meant little black person when it was first coined, centuries ago, now all hispanics use it invariably in much the same way as mate

it is as far removed from being 'racist' as using the gender specific amigo and amiga is an aspect of sex discrimination

i don't tend to disagree that it can be used pejoratively in the same way that I could call you 'mate' or 'pal' in a way that would threaten or intimidate you but the word itself is of the same ilk as far as I can make out

[yes]

Believe it or not it was intended to provoke thought on the topic not to plant a landmine for me to throw myself onto. It seems I was expecting too much.

The irony is I've actually paraphrased much of the above from a discussion with a head of an ethics committee board who has published numerous articles relating to cultural awareness.  He actually used the analogy of 'would I be more wary of a gypsy knocking on my front door or an 80 year old woman'? Essentially saying how can any of us truly say we are without prejudice of some sort? It's a pity you weren't there, I'm sure you'd have been able to contribute a lot to the discussion.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

That part in bold is the assumption you are making. An assumption which we who do not speak spanish should not attempt. Many people here who do speak spanish have posted to say that is exactly what the word does not mean. They said in Uruguay it does not have any reference to a colour bias. Its a common term applied irrespective of your skin colour is what I understood. I would not even try to sort of understand more than that. Best left to language experts and people who have a cultural knowledge of Uruguay.

Correct from the sounds of it (And we have to wait for the official transcript) it sounds like a Spanish word, said in Spanish, in a Spanish conversation by a lad that speaks Spanish and little English has been compared to an English word and thus said individual has been found guilty of using a word that means something completely different but sounds a bit like a word you shouldn't use in England.


That kind of sums the FA up to be honest as well.

But we have to wait for the official transcript.

[Stussy]

Taken as given that Evra said "don't touch me you South American" (I personally find it hard to believe)

What exactly do you find hard to believe? That Evra said 'don't touch me you South American'?

Well we know that Evra has admitted to making a reference to Luis's ethnicity because the LFC statement mentions he admits to doing so - and the speculation is that he called him by the word 'sudaca', which is a bigoted and offensive term that has been likened to the 'P' word in English.

The only reason it has been transliterated as 'you South American' is because we are not familiar of the loaded, bigoted resonance of the slur.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Isn't this 'Prince' guy the person who someone took a snapshot of on a manc forum two days ago saying he was going to change his avatar to the very picture he's now using to wind us up?

He's not winding us up though. If he says something silly then he'll be banned. If he says something sensible then he will be allowed to stay. Same as any fans I would guess.

[Prince]

That part in bold is the assumption you are making. An assumption which we who do not speak spanish should not attempt. Many people here who do speak spanish have posted to say that is exactly what the word does not mean. They said in Uruguay it does not have any reference to a colour bias. Its a common term applied irrespective of your skin colour is what I understood. I would not even try to sort of understand more than that. Best left to language experts and people who have a cultural knowledge of Uruguay.

See my previous post, the quote from native Uruguayian Gus Poyet saying it refers to darker skinned people.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

What exactly do you find hard to believe? That Evra said 'don't touch me you South American'?

Well we know that Evra has admitted to making a reference to Luis's ethnicity because the LFC statement mentions he admits to doing so - and the speculation is that he called him by the word 'sudaca', which is a bigoted and offensive term that has been likened to the 'P' word in English.

I got told that it's more akin to the "S..." word used in North America to refer to Southern American peoples. Which again is an entirely racist and unacceptable term.

[Stussy]

Still, "mate" can refer to anyone from any race whereas "negr(it)o" refers to specifically darker skinned people. It is undeniably a reference to skin colour/race. You cannot erase that from the word, Suarez would have been aware of that. Correct?

Your own Manchester United player Hernandez uses the word 'negrito' as a term of friendship.

Is he racist?

If Evra used the word 'sudaca' to refer to Suarez, is he a racist?

[Jellies]

Matter of time until they tell us that Racism causes Cancer.

Racism is a problem that should be respected and acknowledged. It is widely used, especially in Europe and we shouldn't tolerate it. The problem here is that Suarez isn't racist and didn't say anything racist, the problem isn't that racism isn't an issue in the first place.

[Dr Manhattan]

He's not winding us up though. If he says something silly then he'll be banned. If he says something sensible then he will be allowed to stay. Same as any fans I would guess.

Missing the point somewhat. If he's on a Man Utd forum telling others he's about to change his avatar or rawk (to the exact picture of Evra he now has) to wind us up and finding it funny to do so then he's pretty much openly stating his intention is to wind others up, is he not?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

See my previous post, the quote from native Uruguayian Gus Poyet saying it refers to darker skinned people.

It can do - as from every definition I've read it can refer to people of any skin 'colour'.

Hence all the nicknames of the footballers (for instance) in that region regardless of their skin 'colour'.

[MikaelLFC]

I am just so fucking tired of Manc fans. I posted in my facebook a photo of our players wearing the Suarez 7 t-shirt from the last game and I wrote "Boss act from the lads the other day!" - a Manc fan responded "good that you're supporting a racist".


I told him to get bent.

[belfast-connection]

See my previous post, the quote from native Uruguayian Gus Poyet saying it refers to darker skinned people.

yeah and in spanish you call someone amigo because they're a male friend

you call someone amiga because they're a female friend

but neither term is sex discrimination - although they discriminate between genders

negrito is a term of affection, and all commentators I've seen equate it with mate or pal

repeating and repeating that it has a race connotation doesn't make it true

and an FA panel deciding that in England this peculiarly spanish / latin word will henceforth have a racist connotation doesn't make it true either

that's why the FA are currently the laughing stock of the wider football world; Blatter must be pissing his pants laughing

[yes]

So if they've been deleted stop throwing random bits of shite around.

Haha, so in other words -

"Ok, I didn't realise your point was valid and people had indeed been guilty of ignorant/racist posts but shut up anyway"

You're a corker.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Missing the point somewhat. If he's on a Man Utd forum telling others he's about to change his avatar or rawk (to the exact picture of Evra he now has) to wind us up and finding it funny to do so then he's pretty much openly stating his intention is to wind others up, is he not?

It is possible. However, if he is unreasonable or silly then he'll be removed. Perhaps he'll offer some slight input into the conversation. He's gone about as far as he can with questions after playing his apparant trump card of an analysis of one line spoken by Gus Poyet in a conversation where he clearly says it hasn't got racial connotations (He hasn't mentioned that bit yet)

[redrockydennis]

yeah and in spanish you call someone amigo because they're a male friend

you call someone amiga because they're a female friend

but neither term is sex discrimination - although they discriminate between genders

negrito is a term of affection, and all commentators I've seen equate it with mate or pal

repeating and repeating that it has a race connotation doesn't make it true

and an FA panel deciding that in England this peculiarly spanish / latin word will henceforth have a racist connotation doesn't make it true either

that's why the FA are currently the laughing stock of the wider football world; Blatter must be pissing his pants laughing

Spot on.

[81a]

Yeah, I can see Denis Smith studying this... "Sudaca - that ain't even a proper word, innit? Ignore. Oh, but this other one contains a really familiar set of letters. Oh, just so wrong! Burn him!!!"

Don't you know Dennis writes a regular column for the Staffordshires local paper the Sentinel. Owned by Daily Mail and General Trust.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I am just so fucking tired of Manc fans. I posted in my facebook a photo of our players wearing the Suarez 7 t-shirt from the last game and I wrote "Boss act from the lads the other day!" - a Manc fan responded "good that you're supporting a racist".


I told him to get bent.

I'd love it if they signed Bent

[Stussy]

Still waiting for a reply from the manc about whether the Mexican lad 'Chicarito' using the word negrito when he calls people 'mate' means he is racist, and whether if it is true that Evra referred to Suarez's ethnicity through the racist, offensive, bigoted term of 'sudaca', he also thinks that Evra used racist abuse.

[Redeo]

The truth is: if you are a foreigner in this country you are much more likely to be criticized, blamed, and used as a scapegoat. Alongside many posters around here, I first realized this by watching how one Rafa Benitez was being consistently slammed in the media for apparently horrendous things that were simply not true, while domestic managers were consistently given a pass for truly horrendous things they did.

The same is true for Suarez. However you cut it, the fact that he is from Uruguay makes him a perfect whipping boy for the supposed fight against racism. The irony, of course, is that Suarez (in contrast to all the f*cking domestic xenophobes percolating the FA and the media) actually has a genuine justification for what he said because in his culture what he said is simply not racist! That's why he admitted to saying it in the first place!!!!! (as Barnes points out). The hypocrisy is just mind-blowing.

Really good on Dalglish, this club, players, and Johnson and Barnes in particular to tell Suarez YNWA. And to tell the witch hunters to shut the f*ck up and turn the mirror onto themselves!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

yeah and in spanish you call someone amigo because they're a male friend

you call someone amiga because they're a female friend

but neither term is sex discrimination - although they discriminate between genders

negrito is a term of affection, and all commentators I've seen equate it with mate or pal

repeating and repeating that it has a race connotation doesn't make it true

and an FA panel deciding that in England this peculiarly spanish / latin word will henceforth have a racist connotation doesn't make it true either

that's why the FA are currently the laughing stock of the wider football world; Blatter must be pissing his pants laughing

That's the worry and the reaction of the Uruguayan embassy shows how pissed off they are. Spanish is a language spoken by billions (It is the #2 language spoken in the world) and most that speak this language are stunned by this ruling (If what is reported as being said is true).

The fact that Suarez openly admitted it seems to suggest that this oft used and innocent phrase was exactly what he said.

[Kidspen]

Well, yes, it can, according to a couple of my sources, who spent years in South America. This would be the more innocent interpretation.
A couple of others thought it was more offensive; however, even then "negrito" is NOT more offensive than "sudaca".
Finally, in Spain itself, "sudaca" is a full-on racist term.

PS You have to note that (if true) Evra engaged Suarez on a Spanish wavelength, Suarez answered in a similar spirit and... as soon as Evra heard it, the switch flicked, he was no longer on a Spanish wavelength and he went mental, totally ignoring the fact that... well, he kinda started it.

PPS This is based on the speculation of the actual terms used. I would very much like to see what was actually said.

We all want the see what was actually said and some of us have not contributed to this discussion for that very reason.
However in the club statement it said Suarez didn't hear the comment about "sudaca" so he could have hardly reacted to it.
There seems to be so many contradictions and the other thing we all know from experience is that you can seldom rely on the press for the "truth"
Let's wait and see.

[carra1892]

Can you tell why you made this thread? We already know that a lot of newspapers are bad. No need to stress it imo. Just another thread to talk about the whole saga. If you make a thread like this and want to show the articles, at least start a discussion imo. Otherwise response after response can be to just attack the newspaper on how shit it is (what we already know)

[MikaelLFC]

yeah and in spanish you call someone amigo because they're a male friend

you call someone amiga because they're a female friend

but neither term is sex discrimination - although they discriminate between genders

negrito is a term of affection, and all commentators I've seen equate it with mate or pal

repeating and repeating that it has a race connotation doesn't make it true

and an FA panel deciding that in England this peculiarly spanish / latin word will henceforth have a racist connotation doesn't make it true either

that's why the FA are currently the laughing stock of the wider football world; Blatter must be pissing his pants laughing

Using the diminutive suffix -ito actually makes the word friendlier and more familiar. Honestly I can't understand all this blown up bollocks about it.

[Pata]

A French mate of mine just asked a Spaniard living in South America re: relative abusive connotations of sudaca and negrito. In this lad's opinion, Sudaca >>>>>> Negrito.

[belfast-connection]

It's a highly random and broad insult is why I didn't believe it. And correct me if I am wrong, but your club's statement only mentions that Evra admits insulting Suarez; no indication of a reference to race. Surely if that allegation had legs, as soon as Suarez was charged (at the very latest), he would have made a counter claim to the FA. So I am very skeptical of that actually being the case.

maybe Suarez has more class than to go running to the headmaster telling him that the other boy made him wet his pants after the match

or maybe if you read the LFC statement right you'll see that Suarez to his credit told the panel that he didn't actually hear Evra's vile insult

[Chakan]

It's a highly random and broad insult is why I didn't believe it. And correct me if I am wrong, but your club's statement only mentions that Evra admits insulting Suarez; no indication of a reference to race. Surely if that allegation had legs, as soon as Suarez was charged (at the very latest), he would have made a counter claim to the FA. So I am very skeptical of that actually being the case.

If you read our statement it says "Suarez to his credit said he didn't hear it"

[Dr Manhattan]

It is possible. However, if he is unreasonable or silly then he'll be removed. Perhaps he'll offer some slight input into the conversation. He's gone about as far as he can with questions after playing his apparant trump card of an analysis of one line spoken by Gus Poyet in a conversation where he clearly says it hasn't got racial connotations (He hasn't mentioned that bit yet)

Livid and Johnno are the only two I've seen come on here and offer up any views on the matter which are relevant and don't fall back on the word of the press and the guilty verdict to make their points. Everyone else is solely repeating what they've heard from the media and seen in the papers and using it as fact.

[MikaelLFC]

I'd love it if they signed Bent

There aren't many times I've say it, but thank Fowler for RAWK! That Manc had me pissed off but your comment made me lighten the mood, cheers Andy!