Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[SamLad]

What? I posted the stats I had and the stats are correct, while the interpretation was not accurate, I didn't mean to mislead.

I said,

Doesn't this clearly mean, I conceded the flaws in the interpretation? I made a suggestion, you can choose not to research.

This is a math thing. I'm not great at math, but this is what I know

Percentage success won't change whether or not you make it per 90 minutes or for the entire set of games. It's a success percentage, meaning number of tackles won/number of tackles contested * 100.

Aerial success rate is the ratio of Aerial duels won to the total Aerial duels contested, which also will not change if you make it to per 90 minutes or whatever. It's a ratio.

Think about it.

I also said this

Let me give you an example - If you're in court

1) There is an accusation on person A that he stole a necklace
2) Someone provides an alibi for person A as evidence for not stealing
3) The evidence was rejected after research

The above doesn't imply that person A is now automatically guilty since that particular evidence was rejected, it means the case is still up in their air, unless one of the two sides provide an evidence to prove their stand. Unless there is an evidence, that he did actually steal, he will not be called guilty.

You calling out that the stats are misleading doesn't automatically show that the opposite of what I said was true, it just implies that that particular set of stats was not sufficient, to which I asked for the stats from those who believe in the contrary.

If you didn't say Keita was better, fair enough, but if those who claim Keita deserves a regular starting spot over Hendo don't have anything to back it up, then it doesn't count as an informed opinion, and I'd rather believe in what the manager is doing. Hence, I said, if there are such numbers per 90, backing Keita, I'd be happy to change my opinion.

That's not the same as what you're claiming I said. Lesson that people try to put words into others' mouths during discussions

I imagine all that is quite cogent, and potentially interesting ... but I dozed off part-way through.


joking - joking! 

I'm not having a dig, mate, it's just that I find a lot of footie stats drain the enjoyment of the game to the point it becomes more of a math / stat quiz than anything else.

e.g. watching Trent effortlessly ping multiple inch-perfect 60 yard passes around the pitch loses some of its magic if I see a ton of stats related to the effectiveness of what he does and how it compares to anyone else.  I just love seeing it, and don't need it analyzed.

peace, amigo.

[Knight]

Bad argument. Thiago is progressive, but not downright creative as some of you are clamoring for. He plays a lot of progressive passes, but as I said, to the wide or to the attackers dropping deep, rather than looking to create goals or effect the final third himself. Also, Thiago offers a lot defensively, he's an 8 as well, a deep lying playmaker, not a No. 10 at all.

Thiago has played in 35 PL games so far (both last season and this combined 2020-21 and 2021-22) and here are his numbers for all of those games

Games - 35
Goals - 2
Assist - 1
Passes per match - 67.86 (similar to Hendo, who averages around 65 passes)
Big Chances created - 4 (Hendo has created 4 in 2021-22 alone in 20 appearances)
Through-balls - 6 (Hendo has 7 in 2021-22 alone in 20 appearances)

Are these the stats of someone affecting our final third heavily?

On the contrary, look at his defensive stats

Tackle success - 61%
Interceptions - 37
Recoveries - 215
Duels won - 193
Duels lost - 176
Aerial Battles won - 46
Aerial Battles lost - 36

These are the stats of someone battling hard in midfield and recycling the ball - signs of a perfect Klopp midfielder.

We've been talking at cross purposes a little because you think 'creative' = creating chances and goals and I've been talking about being 'progressive' quite intentionally. Thiago has never been a 'creative' player in your definition of the word but has always been world class at progressing the ball. Klopp looked at our midfield and decided he wanted someone better on the ball, someone superior to Gini at progressing the ball. Any discussion of 'Klopp's preferred midfield' has got to take this into consideration. Yes he wants off the ball ability but he clearly wanted more from the centre of the pitch in terms of ball progression, hence the move from Gini to Thiago. He even accepted a downgrade in phsicality in order to have a massive upgrade in technical ability. Thiago's addition demonstrates that the narrative that Klopp doesn't want technical ability from his players is wrong. He got ball recycling and battling hard from Gini, he wanted ball progression and he gave up some degree of 'hardness' in terms of pace and strength, to get it.

[spider-neil]

Absolutely. Naby has always had all the tools to be a really top class midfielder. Unfortunately, this is his fourth season here and he has still not shown his abilities consistently, nor been reliable, one way or the other. He has still remained only a promise at Liverpool. Whichever way you want to see, whether you want to put it all down to injuries, he has scored 6 goals and 5 assists and has created 9 big chances in 3 and a half seasons, and for a player who was expected to be a lock picker and a creative midfielder, who was supposed to improve us to incredible heights when we bought him, those numbers are extremely disappointing. Forget the money spent on him.

I wouldn't go as far as calling him waste of money or use any kind of hyperbole like that, he has played his part at times, but he hasn't been reliable for 3 and 1/2 years, and expecting him to suddenly become that reliable, consistent midfielder in our side is quite simply far-fetched and not realistic. At 27, and being only a promise is not someone whom we can bank on in the future unfortunately.

I think it's fair to say what midfielders were and how they are utilised in a Klopp midfield is totally different. Look at Gini's attacking output for Holland compared to Liverpool. Up until this season, Klopp has used midfielders to shield the defence and recycle the ball first and foremost. You mention the 6 goals and 5 assists but (excluding penalties) it's not as if the other midfielders are tearing up the scoring charts. Keita has been used in a different way to how he was used at Leipzig and if Klopp wasn't happy with his output he would have been shipped out long before now.

[Knight]

Oh and if we're going to use stats properly, everyone go to this page, https://fbref.com/en/squads/822bd0ba/Liverpool-Stats#all_stats_defense . per90 stats from this season. Just compare Henderson and Keita's defensive stats and decide for yourself. The sample size for Keita is small so it comes with an obvious caveat.

[PoetryInMotion]

I imagine all that is quite cogent, and potentially interesting ... but I dozed off part-way through.


joking - joking! 

I'm not having a dig, mate, it's just that I find a lot of footie stats drain the enjoyment of the game to the point it becomes more of a math / stat quiz than anything else.

e.g. watching Trent effortlessly ping multiple inch-perfect 60 yard passes around the pitch loses some of its magic if I see a ton of stats related to the effectiveness of what he does and how it compares to anyone else.  I just love seeing it, and don't need it analyzed.

peace, amigo.

I absolutely love the romantic part of the game mate. I love it when our players suddenly play one touch passes, flicks, back-heels, the beauty of which cannot be recorded in stats.

But sometimes, enjoying the beauty of the game and looking at stats aren't mutually exclusive, it's good to look into stats to see if it's actually true what you're understanding from the images on the screen, because 10 people can look at the same thing and come into 10 different conclusions. But yes, stats are only as helpful as the context they are used, I agree with that.

The truth is, I would be absolutely delighted if the eye test said Naby was putting in consistently good performances, being the creative midfielder we thought we were getting and being defensively stable, which is needed in our system, but it's not saying that. Who wouldn't want our big signing talented midfielder to be a success/have been a success? If he had been a success, most fans wouldn't be asking for midfield signings though.

[Dave McCoy]

Speak for yourself. Don't presume to speak for others.

Hah. I'm a Naby fan and want him to still succeed here but when the discourse even to this day was "I though we were getting a Kante" then the writing is on the wall for me.

[Knight]

I absolutely love the romantic part of the game mate. I love it when our players suddenly play one touch passes, flicks, back-heels, the beauty of which cannot be recorded in stats.

But sometimes, enjoying the beauty of the game and looking at stats aren't mutually exclusive, it's good to look into stats to see if it's actually true what you're understanding from the images on the screen, because 10 people can look at the same thing and come into 10 different conclusions. But yes, stats are only as helpful as the context they are used, I agree with that.

The truth is, I would be absolutely delighted if the eye test said Naby was putting in consistently good performances, being the creative midfielder we thought we were getting and being defensively stable, which is needed in our system, but it's not saying that. Who wouldn't want our big signing talented midfielder to be a success/have been a success? If he had been a success, most fans wouldn't be asking for midfield signings though.

The stats show he's been LOADS better defensively than Henderson when he's been on the pitch this season.

[PoetryInMotion]

I think it's fair to say what midfielders were and how they are utilised in a Klopp midfield is totally different. Look at Gini's attacking output for Holland compared to Liverpool. Up until this season, Klopp has used midfielders to shield the defence and recycle the ball first and foremost. You mention the 6 goals and 5 assists but (excluding penalties) it's not as if the other midfielders are tearing up the scoring charts. Keita has been used in a different way to how he was used at Leipzig and if Klopp wasn't happy with his output he would have been shipped out long before now.

Yep, this was absolutely my initial point in this thread, a few posts above. Thanks for that.

It puts to bed that consistent appearances from more attack minded midfielders like Keita, Ox, Elliot will somehow result in better attacking output from a Klopp midfield, despite evidence to the contrary for what, 5 years now?

[spider-neil]

I absolutely love the romantic part of the game mate. I love it when our players suddenly play one touch passes, flicks, back-heels, the beauty of which cannot be recorded in stats.

But sometimes, enjoying the beauty of the game and looking at stats aren't mutually exclusive, it's good to look into stats to see if it's actually true what you're understanding from the images on the screen, because 10 people can look at the same thing and come into 10 different conclusions. But yes, stats are only as helpful as the context they are used, I agree with that.

The truth is, I would be absolutely delighted if the eye test said Naby was putting in consistently good performances, being the creative midfielder we thought we were getting and being defensively stable, which is needed in our system, but it's not saying that. Who wouldn't want our big signing talented midfielder to be a success/have been a success? If he had been a success, most fans wouldn't be asking for midfield signings though.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think Keita has been good when selected this season. There have been times this season when (IMHO) he should have been selected on merit. For me, he should have started both Chelsea games. As for fans wanting signings that will always be the case till the end of time.

[spider-neil]

Yep, this was absolutely my initial point in this thread, a few posts above. Thanks for that.

It puts to bed that consistent appearances from more attack minded midfielders like Keita, Ox, Elliot will somehow result in better attacking output from a Klopp midfield, despite evidence to the contrary for what, 5 years now?

Despite the 'heavy metal' perception, Klopp is a pragmatic manager. Our midfield serves a specific role of shielding the defence, blocking passing lanes, recycling the ball and applying pressure as high up the pitch as possible. The low scoring midfield isn't an accident as that isn't their primary role. This season has been different, midfielders are more often finding themselves ahead of the ball and (IMHO) it is leaving us more open for the counter-attack. This season is reminding me of 17/18 where we were wide open in midfield and we could win 5-0 or just as easily lose 4-3.

I have a problem with Keita's injuries because it doesn't matter how good a player is if he can't get on the pitch but I think when he has been selected he has done okay. Obviously, people are wanting and expecting better than just 'okay' for a player that cost over 50m but form and consistency are going to be very difficult to maintain when you are constantly picking up injuries. There is a decision to be made this summer with regards to Ox and Keita because both are out of contract next one. I can't see both being sold in the summer but I also can't see both of them getting an extension.

[PoetryInMotion]

We've been talking at cross purposes a little because you think 'creative' = creating chances and goals and I've been talking about being 'progressive' quite intentionally. Thiago has never been a 'creative' player in your definition of the word but has always been world class at progressing the ball. Klopp looked at our midfield and decided he wanted someone better on the ball, someone superior to Gini at progressing the ball. Any discussion of 'Klopp's preferred midfield' has got to take this into consideration. Yes he wants off the ball ability but he clearly wanted more from the centre of the pitch in terms of ball progression, hence the move from Gini to Thiago. He even accepted a downgrade in phsicality in order to have a massive upgrade in technical ability. Thiago's addition demonstrates that the narrative that Klopp doesn't want technical ability from his players is wrong. He got ball recycling and battling hard from Gini, he wanted ball progression and he gave up some degree of 'hardness' in terms of pace and strength, to get it.

I don't disagree with any of this.

I'm not equating being progressive = creative, I'm doing the exact opposite of trying to separate between the two. Many people have been asking for a creative midfielder for a long time and think that if we start Keita/Ox/Elliot or someone who can dribble, we will suddenly become more creative from midfield, which is not exactly true. The thing is that even they will have primary defensive responsibilities.

We signed Thiago for his ball progression, absolutely agree, but we wouldn't have signed Thiago if he wasn't tactically intelligent defensive positioning wise, or if was going to buckle out of challenges. Thiago makes a lot of recoveries, wins many challenges, both in the ground and in the air. I don't think Thiago is that inferior to Wijnaldum defensively at all. The thing is Klopp may allow a marginal trade-off in defensive stability to create chances, but he's not going to convert our No. 8s into No. 10s. This is one of the reasons, why Klopp tried Shaqiri and it didn't really work out, because Shaqiri was a No. 10 and he didn't know where to play him. He couldn't play Shaqiri in midfield, and we even tried 4-2-3-1 in some games to accommodate him, but Klopp went back to 4-3-3 and froze him out.

Thiago is still a No. 8, not a No. 10, whereas some people want 1 or 2 of our CMs to act as our No. 10, who are creative, create chances themselves, record assists and score a few goals. Our CMs are not going to do that primarily. My post was to clarify on those lines.

For example, we wouldn't have signed Ozil or De Bruyne to play them as CMs in our system, just because they have progressive and creative abilities. De Bruyne only contested 14 aerial duels in the whole of last season having started 25 games, and lost 10 of those duels. Whether if we did sign them and then change the system to suit them is a different question. I think the clamor for playing No. 10s as CMs come from watching City and their overall attacking success, without the understanding that we and City play entirely differently.

To clarify - I would absolutely love for us to get another progressive CM, within the Klopp framework, where they can hold their own defensively (ala Thiago), but I wouldn't expect this player to create chances, assist or score frequently, just like I don't expect Thiago to do all that.

[PoetryInMotion]

The stats show he's been LOADS better defensively than Henderson when he's been on the pitch this season.

Great for doing that in 6 League games he started.
Hopefully he gets to show more of that in the pitch for the rest of the season, and more?

Edit: On a second look, it also shows that Milner makes the 2nd highest number of the defensive actions listed per 90, in the whole team, and ahead of Fabinho. So, Milner is LOADS better defensively than Fabinho.

[PoetryInMotion]

Despite the 'heavy metal' perception, Klopp is a pragmatic manager. Our midfield serves a specific role of shielding the defence, blocking passing lanes, recycling the ball and applying pressure as high up the pitch as possible. The low scoring midfield isn't an accident as that isn't their primary role. This season has been different, midfielders are more often finding themselves ahead of the ball and (IMHO) it is leaving us more open for the counter-attack. This season is reminding me of 17/18 where we were wide open in midfield and we could win 5-0 or just as easily lose 4-3.

True, agree with that. We are also not recycling the ball as well as we can at different game states. The return of Thiago should help and probably some focus on our game management in training.

I have a problem with Keita's injuries because it doesn't matter how good a player is if he can't get on the pitch but I think when he has been selected he has done okay. Obviously, people are wanting and expecting better than just 'okay' for a player that cost over 50m but form and consistency are going to be very difficult to maintain when you are constantly picking up injuries. There is a decision to be made this summer with regards to Ox and Keita because both are out of contract next one. I can't see both being sold in the summer but I also can't see both of them getting an extension.

Fair points regarding his availability and having to do more than 'okay'. On one hand Milner will leave this season, and on the other hand Jones and Elliot can step up and we may sign other midfielders. Remains to be seen, how the club will plan the futures of these two players.

[RedG13]

This is such a confusing misuse  "statistics" I genuinely don't know where to start with it

First of all everything needs to be per 90- not per game played in or cumulative... if you want to do that then we can go through them
Apart from not using per 90 which is essential you've managed to completely absent any on ball statistics, misread your own recovery numbers and leave out pressures and successful pressures

Finally if you're using last years numbers you should be aware Hendersons games at centre back and playing the 6 vs where he's currently playing will affect his numbers a lot (positively and negatively depending on the metric)

Agreed per 90 is the fairest. Also Keita has won 57% of his ground duels in the PL this year. Henderson is at 40%. Keita is currently the only MF with a ground duel rate over 50%.
https://fbref.com/en/players/f25c8e3a/Naby-Keita Keita Per 90 stats in the last 365 days
https://fbref.com/en/players/935e6b8f/Jordan-Henderson per 90 stats from the last 365 days

[spider-neil]

Great for doing that in 6 League games he started.
Hopefully he gets to show more of that in the pitch for the rest of the season, and more?

Edit: On a second look, it also shows that Milner makes the 2nd highest number of the defensive actions listed per 90, in the whole team, and ahead of Fabinho. So, Milner is LOADS better defensively than Fabinho.

It just proves stats alone aren't enough and that context also needs to be applied. Just like your initial stats were posted without the context of per 90 games.

[spider-neil]

True, agree with that. We are also not recycling the ball as well as we can at different game states. The return of Thiago should help and probably some focus on our game management in training.

Fair points regarding his availability and having to do more than 'okay'. On one hand Milner will leave this season, and on the other hand Jones and Elliot can step up and we may sign other midfielders. Remains to be seen, how the club will plan the futures of these two players.

This is going to be dependent on how much money we have in the bank. We've shown that we're more than happy to let midfielders leave on a free. Can, Gini, Milner (almost certainly). So potentially Ox and Keita will be allowed to walk for free next summer. There seems to be a perception that we're eager to get rid of both players but I've seen no indication that we are actively trying to get rid at all. Sure, if a big enough offer came in for either we'd probably move them on but that applies to all but a handful of players in the squad. Keita is 26 so 2 years off his prime. He was scouted for a long time, knows the systems and performs well when plays so the decision isn't clear cut.

This summer is pivotal with regards to extensions because next summer, Keita, Ox, Mane, and Firmino can leave on a free. If Liverpool takes up the option of another year on Origi he'll also leave in 2023 (if not Origi leaves on a free this summer). So there are a lot of big decisions to be made.

[Knight]

Great for doing that in 6 League games he started.
Hopefully he gets to show more of that in the pitch for the rest of the season, and more?

Edit: On a second look, it also shows that Milner makes the 2nd highest number of the defensive actions listed per 90, in the whole team, and ahead of Fabinho. So, Milner is LOADS better defensively than Fabinho.

These are really great posts from you poetryinmotion thanks for taking the time to engage in such depth with multiple people, it’s conversations like these, and quality posters like you, that make this such an enjoyable place to discuss football.

I totally agree about limited minutes from Keita, I did say that in another post where I provided the fbref link. Milner and Fabinho typically take up slightly different positions so Fabinho having less defensive actions is no surprise. Keita and Henderson are both front footed 8s out of possession so it’s a little different. However we think Keita is doing the stats certainly show a worrying decline from Henderson defensively by the way.

[Knight]

I don't disagree with any of this.

I'm not equating being progressive = creative, I'm doing the exact opposite of trying to separate between the two. Many people have been asking for a creative midfielder for a long time and think that if we start Keita/Ox/Elliot or someone who can dribble, we will suddenly become more creative from midfield, which is not exactly true. The thing is that even they will have primary defensive responsibilities.

We signed Thiago for his ball progression, absolutely agree, but we wouldn't have signed Thiago if he wasn't tactically intelligent defensive positioning wise, or if was going to buckle out of challenges. Thiago makes a lot of recoveries, wins many challenges, both in the ground and in the air. I don't think Thiago is that inferior to Wijnaldum defensively at all. The thing is Klopp may allow a marginal trade-off in defensive stability to create chances, but he's not going to convert our No. 8s into No. 10s. This is one of the reasons, why Klopp tried Shaqiri and it didn't really work out, because Shaqiri was a No. 10 and he didn't know where to play him. He couldn't play Shaqiri in midfield, and we even tried 4-2-3-1 in some games to accommodate him, but Klopp went back to 4-3-3 and froze him out.

Thiago is still a No. 8, not a No. 10, whereas some people want 1 or 2 of our CMs to act as our No. 10, who are creative, create chances themselves, record assists and score a few goals. Our CMs are not going to do that primarily. My post was to clarify on those lines.

For example, we wouldn't have signed Ozil or De Bruyne to play them as CMs in our system, just because they have progressive and creative abilities. De Bruyne only contested 14 aerial duels in the whole of last season having started 25 games, and lost 10 of those duels. Whether if we did sign them and then change the system to suit them is a different question. I think the clamor for playing No. 10s as CMs come from watching City and their overall attacking success, without the understanding that we and City play entirely differently.

To clarify - I would absolutely love for us to get another progressive CM, within the Klopp framework, where they can hold their own defensively (ala Thiago), but I wouldn't expect this player to create chances, assist or score frequently, just like I don't expect Thiago to do all that.

This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced . If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.

[spider-neil]

This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced . If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.

More than likely but would be even more open in midfield than we are this season? I thought we were too open against Chelsea and Henderson was drifting over to the right far too often despite having a starting position on the left. If Elliot is going to be a fixture in the team and Fab is a fixture in the team (as he must be) then IMHO Henderson has to drop out of the team.

[PoetryInMotion]

This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced . If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.

We have to wait and see if Elliot affects the game in the manner you say. However, our overall attacking game, even without him has been brilliant. We are outscoring City, and we are creating lots of chances game after game. The thing is that, our attacking game is not broken, and there is no need to fix it, whether that is in midfield or in attack. We can add options, and rotate between those options obviously, but we don't need to poke and mend.

But, our weaknesses, especially in midfield has been in shielding the defense. If Elliot is the answer to that problem, I'd be very happy, mate.

[RedG13]

More than likely but would be even more open in midfield than we are this season? I thought we were too open against Chelsea and Henderson was drifting over to the right far too often despite having a starting position on the left. If Elliot is going to be a fixture in the team and Fab is a fixture in the team (as he must be) then IMHO Henderson has to drop out of the team.

In the game with Hendo/Naby/Elliot starting per understat XG againist Liverpool was .69 with one shot over .1 xg and that was 94 minute shot by Barnes that was saved with an xg of .32. Leed Xg against finished at .65 nothing big created Elliott was hurt there and vs Chelsea when Elliott started was .57, Chelsea going to 10 min had an impact but they scored and super low XG corner.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Happy Birthday Naby Lad

[markedasred]

I feel bad bringing the dilemma up on his birthday, but is English is sufficiently poor for me to doubt he comes in here. Several players mention he is always the outstanding player in training. There are a few others who would be assumed to dominate in that arena. So why does that not translate more fully to games?. I mean he is good, but presumably not as good as in training to elicit the comments from the team mates.

[Cormack Snr]

That performance from Diaz the other night was the type of display we have been waiting to see from Keita since he arrived, I know they are in different positions but Keita has done next to nothing for a player of his so-called qualities.

[Szemerényi]

Do we really need this discussion AGAIN? 

[Sangria]

That performance from Diaz the other night was the type of display we have been waiting to see from Keita since he arrived, I know they are in different positions but Keita has done next to nothing for a player of his so-called qualities.

Keita is highly capable. He's just obsolete in our system.

[spider-neil]

That performance from Diaz the other night was the type of display we have been waiting to see from Keita since he arrived, I know they are in different positions but Keita has done next to nothing for a player of his so-called qualities.

So this thread has been bumped to knock the player. Why bother?

[El Lobo]

So this thread has been bumped to knock the player. Why bother?

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=27041

[Knight]

Keita is highly capable. He's just obsolete in our system.

Yeah a player with elite high pressing is obsolete in a high pressing team.

[Schmidt]

People are so easily led by these weird and inaccurate narratives that follow players around; Keita has had some incredible games for us, anyone who disagrees should go watch us demolish united 5-0 again and then come back before posting any more criticisms. He definitely also has understated games, much like Gini did for us, but even then his numbers are really strong and we tend to perform really well as a team with him there.

I guess a lot of it stems from those 2(?) games where he got subbed off early and the number of injuries he'd had, but the idea that he's not frequently tearing it up when he's fit is just wrong.

[number 168]

Yeah a player with elite high pressing is obsolete in a high pressing team.

Precisely. Besides how anyone can use 'obsolete' to describe him is ridiculous. How can he be 'out date' when the team's function hasn't really altered since he arrived, and he has retained all his abilities and improved his positional awarenes and disciplne? Naby has been incredibly unlucky with injuries and he looks great for the most part when he plays. He has had a few indifferent games but generally he oozes class and shows something which our forwards want - forward passes. He might fall victim to Jurgen's wish to upgrade the midfield but I for one look forward to seeeing him play when he's named on the teamsheet.

[Sangria]

Yeah a player with elite high pressing is obsolete in a high pressing team.

Keita is elite at pressing and progression, which was what he was signed for. Then we got Trent and Robertson into the team, and the focus of our play changed, and our CMs are less required to do that and more required to cover for our CBs. Same with Ox, who got injured just as Trent was emerging (and Keita himself got injured as Robertson was emerging). With our progressive CMs out, we went full on with the stylistic switch to attacking FBs and covering CMs.

[JackWard33]

Keita is elite at pressing and progression, which was what he was signed for. Then we got Trent and Robertson into the team, and the focus of our play changed, and our CMs are less required to do that and more required to cover for our CBs. Same with Ox, who got injured just as Trent was emerging (and Keita himself got injured as Robertson was emerging). With our progressive CMs out, we went full on with the stylistic switch to attacking FBs and covering CMs.

This is a pretty obsolete view im afraid that might have been true a couple of years ago but isn’t this season
Thiago progresses (passing + carries per 90)  the ball more than either full back
Think Keita is 3rd or 4th from memory and suspect Elliot and Jones will be up there too

[Yorkykopite]

I wonder if he'll play v Burnley. You might instinctively think "No, not little Naby against those clodhoppers." But actually his best game for Liverpool remains the one he played at Turf Moor in his first season. He was outstanding that day. 

[spider-neil]

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=27041

Bumping a thread to have a go at a player when a player has had a bad game, I get it, I don't condone it but I understand it. Keita didn't play midweek but despite that, the poster still bumped the Keita thread to have a go. Whatever.

[spider-neil]

I wonder if he'll play v Burnley. You might instinctively think "No, not little Naby against those clodhoppers." But actually his best game for Liverpool remains the one he played at Turf Moor in his first season. He was outstanding that day. 

He was also quite good in the home against Burnley game this season. I actually think Keita has been decent in nearly every game he has been selected for this season. The exception (for me) was getting dribbled past twice in one game but a) Atletico are a good team so getting dribbled past can happen and b) the team failed to press as a unit to help him out.

[Sangria]

This is a pretty obsolete view im afraid that might have been true a couple of years ago but isn’t this season
Thiago progresses (passing + carries per 90)  the ball more than either full back
Think Keita is 3rd or 4th from memory and suspect Elliot and Jones will be up there too

Is that because Thiago is elite enough at what he does and not deficient enough in the essentials to be sidelined? A more pertinent example to look at might be Elliott, who is more of a progressive than covering CM, but that doesn't really make the case for Keita either. Looking at transfermarkt, Keita has played just over 1000 minutes this season across all competitions, a quarter of them in AFCON.

[JackWard33]

Is that because Thiago is elite enough at what he does and not deficient enough in the essentials to be sidelined? A more pertinent example to look at might be Elliott, who is more of a progressive than covering CM, but that doesn't really make the case for Keita either. Looking at transfermarkt, Keita has played just over 1000 minutes this season across all competitions, a quarter of them in AFCON.

Sure - was more talking about the system and what we’re trying to do with our midfield, it’s clearly changed this season. He’s started at least one ball progressing midfielder every game (apart from a couple when they were all out)

[spider-neil]

Is that because Thiago is elite enough at what he does and not deficient enough in the essentials to be sidelined? A more pertinent example to look at might be Elliott, who is more of a progressive than covering CM, but that doesn't really make the case for Keita either. Looking at transfermarkt, Keita has played just over 1000 minutes this season across all competitions, a quarter of them in AFCON.

The more important thing is being available for selection. You can only field 11 players.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I wonder if he'll play v Burnley. You might instinctively think "No, not little Naby against those clodhoppers." But actually his best game for Liverpool remains the one he played at Turf Moor in his first season. He was outstanding that day.

My brother in laws a Burnley fan and a decent player in his day. He was at that game and said he stood out a mile.