Poll

Tory Christmas Party

Nothing like a good old knees up!
They should apologise and come clean
Johnson should resign
The front bench should resign
The entire party should resign
The entire party should be put in an Elon Musk rocket and fired off to jupiter with 2 packets of hula hoops and a pot noodle
I LOVE cheese!

Author Topic: Doesn't matter who you vote for as long as it's for the right reasons!  (Read 1157744 times)

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18280 on: May 9, 2021, 12:52:19 pm »
Sounds a bit benign that. Are you sure? Surely there is some kind of Machiavellian shape-shifting puppet master in the background!?
I wish there were…..
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18281 on: May 9, 2021, 01:05:00 pm »
I wish there were…..
We definitely need to see much more talent - across all the parties. I've suggested before that MP salaries need to be dramatically increased to do this. My fear, though - without a better educated public - is that exactly the same people would be elected, only rewarded more for their ineptitude. Still, something has to change. If we go back 40 years (or even 20), even though there were plenty of idiot MPs (especially within the Tory party), there was much more talent all round - I think. Or, maybe I've entered old-codgerhood and things were just as bad then.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18282 on: May 9, 2021, 01:08:29 pm »
The public is the best educated it’s ever been.

“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18283 on: May 9, 2021, 01:09:21 pm »
The first step to questioning why the Tories have allowed the NHS to rot would be to highlight the good position it was in during the last Labour government. A significant portion of the Labour party would rather have perpetual Tory government than admit that the last Labour government did good things.

I think Starmer is running scared of what would happen if he questioned why the NHS and the care homes has been broken down into a position where a supposed welfare state like Britain got a higher death rate than countries in the dire straits of Italy and Spain and why the NHS was in such a shape where the Danish mixed tier 1/2 like strategy couldn't be permanently applied.

What would then happen is that Bozo and Hancock would go on a rampage in the media about Starmer attacking (!) the NHS and insulting the doctors and nurses (!!) when he was just wanting to improve it. Basically a bit like the Republicans attacking leftists about 'hating 'Murica' if they want universal healthcare. It's advanced virtue-signalling by a government that is a bunch of opportunistic snakes taking advantage of playing that game. Hancock really is a piece of work as far as British politicians go. That twat has utterly failed at this job and still uses the hard-working doctors and nurses as human shields for his incompetence, taking zero responsibility for Britain being miles worse off than any comparable countries.

I think Starmer is afraid of that media backlash and is not willing to venture out of his comfort zone to really take the Tories on. I'm always of the position that it's better to go down swinging if you feel you're in the right. The career means nothing if you'll be remembered as a Tory doormat.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 01:19:03 pm by Linudden »
Linudden.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18284 on: May 9, 2021, 01:15:16 pm »
The public is the best educated it’s ever been.
They appear to be less able to discern fact from fiction. And the traditional gatekeepers of information have been pummeled by social media. So yes, maybe they are 'better educated', but if the tools for misinforming and misleading people have moved even more forward (which they undoubtedly have done), the required general level of education (ability to reason) have fallen behind what is now required.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 01:16:53 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18285 on: May 9, 2021, 01:16:28 pm »
The public is the best educated it’s ever been.

I don't think it is the people recently educated that are the issue.

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18286 on: May 9, 2021, 01:16:31 pm »
As an experiment, I'll add the odd poll in here for topical stuff.

Added a left/right one for the time being which I'll remove after a few days.

If people want other Polls adding, send me a PM and I'll bung it on there for a few days then remove it..
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18287 on: May 9, 2021, 01:20:11 pm »
I don't think it is the people recently educated that are the issue.
I think younger people - unsurprisingly - are better at understanding the nature of social media. Which I think is the root cause of the present problems.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18288 on: May 9, 2021, 01:21:31 pm »
Sounds a bit benign that. Are you sure? Surely there is some kind of Machiavellian shape-shifting puppet master in the background!?
Why do people have to keep bringing Mandelson into it.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18289 on: May 9, 2021, 01:22:02 pm »
I think younger people - unsurprisingly - are better at understanding the nature of social media. Which I think is the root cause of the present problems.

It's no coincidence things really started turning to shit when older people started joining Facebook (or maybe it is, I can't actually prove it  ;D)

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18290 on: May 9, 2021, 01:22:34 pm »
Ive never followed politics, don't understand it and yes I'm one of those who feel they're all as bad as each other.

I read this thread every day in the hope that it'll educate me or give me the understanding I crave but nope, it's all still gobbledegook.

All the different factions, labels, left this, right that, blue, red, culturalists, centrists etc nothing computes.

Social equality has to be the aim surely, not all this godforsaken childish bickering and name calling.

If someone, anyone, started talking about that and how they would go about delivering it I'd listen, I'd get behind it and I'd fight like hell to help make it happen.

Maybe a name change would help those of us not politically savvy, I mean what the fuck is "labour" to most people.

The pain of childbirth?  A skivvy that does all the heavy graft on a building site?  Who the hell wants to be associated with that!

I'll keep reading but I don't hold out much hope of understanding why the party built on unity and mutual support is intent on ripping itself apart whilst other political parties prosper.


Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18291 on: May 9, 2021, 01:27:23 pm »
I don't think it is the people recently educated that are the issue.
Implying the elderly are ignorant isn’t helping either…

I think younger people - unsurprisingly - are better at understanding the nature of social media. Which I think is the root cause of the present problems.
And I’m not convinced  by this at all.

Brexit and Trump played social media like a veritable fiddle.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18292 on: May 9, 2021, 01:28:14 pm »
We are not helping ourselves though. We have turned into professional snipers as a party who just spend endless time criticising the government on social media yet not putting forward anything alternative. I like my MP Angela Eagle for example , but all she does all day seemingly is find anti-government posts and retweets them. We need to be seen doing more than that.

Kinda feel this too. I ask myself what is the point of these endless meme's and stuff on social media, who is the audience that people are seeking to engage with this. Is it just to have a good old moan with like minded people? If so thats fair enough, all got to let off steam somehow.

If its intention is to engage undecided/apathetic voters its kind of self defeating. If the answer to any question about government policy is "they are evil, this must be wrong" why would any nonpartisan person seeking information on a subject go to that hyper partisan friend? They already know what they will say.

Offline Commie Bobbie

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18293 on: May 9, 2021, 01:31:00 pm »
Social equality has to be the aim surely, not all this godforsaken childish bickering and name calling.

Half the problem is that those in left-behind towns do not want social equality for the other. They just don't.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18294 on: May 9, 2021, 01:32:33 pm »
Implying the elderly are ignorant isn’t helping either…
And I’m not convinced  by this at all.

Brexit and Trump played social media like a veritable fiddle.

I didn't imply that at all, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

You said we are more educated than ever - that has come from educating young people. The largest cohort of voters of voters - boomers - haven't been educated in the recent past (of course some have done education but generally speaking).

It is a pretty widely reported phenomenon of older people that haven't grow up using the internet (instead growing up on traditional media which on the whole you could trust without verifying) being much more vulnerable to believing fake news and conspiracy theories on the internet.

Offline reddebs

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18295 on: May 9, 2021, 01:33:37 pm »
Half the problem is that those in left-behind towns do not want social equality for the other. They just don't.

So they want to remain downtrodden?

Offline Byrnee

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18296 on: May 9, 2021, 01:33:45 pm »
The big problem for Labour is that they're playing the popular vote game rather than the constituency one. Starmer is bound to give them landslides in London and university cities but judging by what happened in Hartlepool and Tees Valley they might actually really lose the north for the first time in 2024. In effect, having fewer seats than the Tories if the NW, NE and YH are combined. The NW is still going to be Labour because of GM and Merseyside but along with urban Yorkshire and Newcastle these areas are set to be red islands in a sea of blue if this keeps up.

Now Labour have abandoned the economic populism that still rendered good numbers in the rural north in 2015 then okay in 2017 and now appear to be fishing for Lib Dem voters and suburban Tories more than anything else. Their problem is that unlike in the US, suburban voters departing the right-wing can choose red or yellow in Britain and vote splitting will be a serious issue in more than one place.

They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I looked at the London Tory constituencies and there's no reason why Labour can't pick up 8-10 of those in the next election. The problem though is that at the same time the Tories may pick up even more than that considering there are nine seats in Barnsley, Chesterfield, Doncaster, Hull (E & W), Rotherham, Stockton (N), Sunderland and the final remaining seats in Walsall (S) and Wolverhampton (SE) where the Labour vote share is crash landing. That'd mean all those gains are offset immediately. Then add that Yvette Cooper's seat along with other rural mining belt areas are destined to go the way of Bolsover sooner rather than later and the results are obvious. There are also specific "Brexit seats" in Bradford (S) and Sheffield (SE) in danger.

Unless Labour find a way to balance economic leftist populism without falling down the Momentum path they are in a hopeless spot. Already in 2017 the required PV lead for the Tories to gain a majority was at 4 points and that will further lower in the future at this rate. Especially if Scotland leaves. If that happens then the Tories might lose the PV and still gain a majority like Labour did if England was a separate entity in 2005. Actually a landslide in spite of fewer votes! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_Kingdom_general_election_in_England)

That's another big elephant in the room: if Labour win power it will be through a confidence and supply deal with the SNP for a minority cabinet and a triumphant Sturgeon would then be more likely to win the referendum if Scottish Labour unionists have been thrown under the bus by the Prime Minister. Then Scotland get independent in the middle of parliament and a Tory PM gets installed by default.

From a political strategy standpoint Labour are in a deep trap right now and it's very hard to see it ending well for them. The Tories control the constituency boundaries and they won't change what works for them. They are also doing it in the very core areas that carried Blair in three elections back when much of the Midlands and nearly all of the north were safe Labour territories.

Some people here are bullish about Labour going on the attack in the south, but let's be honest here. The south is right-wing economically when outside of inner cities. There's a reason Lib Dems have done better than Labour in those areas in the past. Reading West to go Labour eventually? Probably. Still, looking at Labour getting battered in both seats in Bournemouth and having lost Stevenage by 15 points last time is a reminder of how far they have to climb in the south to make up ground. They can gain some in between Brighton and Southampton but besides that there's not much in the south to pick up.

In 2024 the Tories will have been in power for 14 years. Labour managed 13 before people got bored and fancied a change. When the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow fails to materialise these constituencies will start to fall. It won't help when Boris leaves either. As much as I loathe him, like Trump people have an unexplainable fondness for the c*nt. Gove, Sunak, Raab and the rest have the charisma of a plant pot.

Labour will be fine, as people start to see the shitshow the Tories have wraught. But it will take time, and in 2024 just cutting the majority to a more reasonable level will be progress. Something where the Tories can't bulldoze everything they want through parliament. Coming close to hung parliament after the last few years would be remarkable.

But if people still can't see in 2024 past the Tories that won't be a huge surprise, they have an electoral and media advantage.

But we need the left to stop proving the definition of hypocrisy and get on board. In the US they mostly came around (save for some shitbags who just like the sound of their own voice). They understood they need to get power first then move the party left and implement leftist policies rather than kicking off because
their man wasn't allowed another public vote to lose.

However the difference there was their man (Bernie) also understood this and got on board.

Corbyn would never do right, he's too busy with his sycophants complaining happily on the sidelines while the country goes to ruin.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 01:42:34 pm by Byrnee »
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18297 on: May 9, 2021, 01:42:37 pm »
Why do people have to keep bringing Mandelson into it.
Not sure if joking or serious. (Did I do that right?)

Anyway, I was referring to comments such as these:
Nandy’s for the chop and all apparently.
They're gonna get the band back together aren't they.
Reeks of Mandelson.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18298 on: May 9, 2021, 01:43:32 pm »
I didn't imply that at all, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

You said we are more educated than ever - that has come from educating young people. The largest cohort of voters of voters - boomers - haven't been educated in the recent past (of course some have done education but generally speaking).

It is a pretty widely reported phenomenon of older people that haven't grow up using the internet (instead growing up on traditional media which on the whole you could trust without verifying) being much more vulnerable to believing fake news and conspiracy theories on the internet.
Apologies if that wasn’t your intent.


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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18299 on: May 9, 2021, 01:44:22 pm »
Implying the elderly are ignorant isn’t helping either…
And I’m not convinced  by this at all.

Brexit and Trump played social media like a veritable fiddle.
Yes, and older people disproportionately fell for it.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18300 on: May 9, 2021, 01:47:17 pm »
So they want to remain downtrodden?

I don't even think its that. Its the 'if I can't have it, they can't have it' mentality. My mother and sister feel resentful to myself who likes to go abroad, or go to other parts of the country - and rave about just how much more open and inclusive other cities are - its a very acute narrow-mindedness.

Its not just a left-behind attitude in regards to economics, the way some councils bend over backwards for their older population down here and in other seaside resorts is absurd.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 01:49:26 pm by Commie Bobbie »
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18301 on: May 9, 2021, 01:50:28 pm »
I didn't imply that at all, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

You said we are more educated than ever - that has come from educating young people. The largest cohort of voters of voters - boomers - haven't been educated in the recent past (of course some have done education but generally speaking).

It is a pretty widely reported phenomenon of older people that haven't grow up using the internet (instead growing up on traditional media which on the whole you could trust without verifying) being much more vulnerable to believing fake news and conspiracy theories on the internet.

Yep. Older people are used to consuming their news via trusted gatekeepers of information (largely in the past now). In the main, this means the traditional printed press. Young people have grown up with the Internet and understand (better) how it is an unreliable source for information - or its limitations at least (because it can be brilliant too). Older people are, on the whole, less able to discern the good from the bad.
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 01:52:42 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18302 on: May 9, 2021, 01:51:51 pm »
Apologies if that wasn’t your intent.
I'm sure it wasn't. I did not read Elmo's comments that way at all.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18303 on: May 9, 2021, 01:52:24 pm »
Yep. Older people are used to consuming their news via trusted gatekeepers of information (largely in the past now). In the main, this means the traditional printed press. Young people have grown up with the Internet and understand (better) how it is an unreliable source for information - or its limitations at least (because it can be brilliant too). Older people are, on the whole, less able to discern the good from the bad.

I'm in my late 30s - but I genuinely can't remember the last time I read a newspaper - admittedly though I'm on the Guardian on a daily basis!
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18304 on: May 9, 2021, 01:55:58 pm »
I don't even think its that. Its the 'if I can't have it, they can't have it' mentality. My mother and sister feel resentful to myself who likes to go abroad, or go to other parts of the country - and rave about just how much more open and inclusive other cities are - its a very acute narrow-mindedness.

Its not just a left-behind attitude in regards to economics, the way some councils bend over backwards for their older population down here and in other seaside resorts is absurd.

Resentful because they can't afford to or because you like places that are open and inclusive?

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18305 on: May 9, 2021, 01:58:05 pm »
I'm in my late 30s - but I genuinely can't remember the last time I read a newspaper - admittedly though I'm on the Guardian on a daily basis!
The problem is those who rely upon Facebook and the like for their information. Information from the Internet is not inherently poor of course, just some (or large) parts of it are terrible and plain dangerous. So, yeah, The Guardian online is fine of course. And all the online versions of traditional broadsheets (with the usual caveats).
« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 02:05:50 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18306 on: May 9, 2021, 02:04:26 pm »
Resentful because they can't afford to or because you like places that are open and inclusive?

They can afford it! They just don't choose to - which has been quite frustrating!
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18307 on: May 9, 2021, 02:44:52 pm »
Ive never followed politics, don't understand it and yes I'm one of those who feel they're all as bad as each other.

I read this thread every day in the hope that it'll educate me or give me the understanding I crave but nope, it's all still gobbledegook.

All the different factions, labels, left this, right that, blue, red, culturalists, centrists etc nothing computes.

Social equality has to be the aim surely, not all this godforsaken childish bickering and name calling.

If someone, anyone, started talking about that and how they would go about delivering it I'd listen, I'd get behind it and I'd fight like hell to help make it happen.

Maybe a name change would help those of us not politically savvy, I mean what the fuck is "labour" to most people.

The pain of childbirth?  A skivvy that does all the heavy graft on a building site?  Who the hell wants to be associated with that!

I'll keep reading but I don't hold out much hope of understanding why the party built on unity and mutual support is intent on ripping itself apart whilst other political parties prosper.



Hi Debs - to see where you might lie in all this, might be worth taking this quiz;


Edit - it's a bit American that one - I'll dig a better one out


Ok I think this is a good one;  https://www.politicalcompass.org/test

« Last Edit: May 9, 2021, 02:49:56 pm by Camping in a pub in Allerton »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline reddebs

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18308 on: May 9, 2021, 02:46:09 pm »
They can afford it! They just don't choose to - which has been quite frustrating!

So that's choice not a lack of opportunity which is what I meant.

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18309 on: May 9, 2021, 02:50:21 pm »
Watching the Bristol results, one of the Welsh Greens pointed something interesting to it. Labour's vote is much the same as always, it's that Tories and Lib Dems are switching to Greens which is making the difference in wards Greens are winning there.

Curious world.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18310 on: May 9, 2021, 02:55:51 pm »
I just did that Political Compass again myself and it's funny because I honestly think that I'm a centrist and yet I get this when I honestly answer;




I think I'm just a knobhead :D
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18311 on: May 9, 2021, 02:57:16 pm »
I’m pretty sure it’s a Gen-X thing.

“We” are in charge now so the Keiths, Karens, Sharons & Traceys are the objects of derision.

Fuck the Darrens too.

Thing is the people coining these names are called Tarquin and Jemima.

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18312 on: May 9, 2021, 02:58:49 pm »
I’m pretty sure it’s a Gen-X thing.

“We” are in charge now so the Keiths, Karens, Sharons & Traceys are the objects of derision.

Fuck the Darrens too.
Generation Xtremely ducking stupid… as we were once called… ;D

Who are the Keiths, Karens, Sharon’s and Traceys?
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18313 on: May 9, 2021, 03:06:18 pm »
Generation Xtremely ducking stupid… as we were once called… ;D

Who are the Keiths, Karens, Sharon’s and Traceys?

Keiths drive white vans and Karen, Sharon and Tracey dance around their handbags.

The subject of much sneering by the over educated and under employed.

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18314 on: May 9, 2021, 03:12:25 pm »
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1390973418372222977?s=20

Well at least John McDonnell has gone back to his usual game within the party...

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18315 on: May 9, 2021, 03:19:53 pm »
Also talk from the left of the party of a vote of no confidence and a leadership challenge. Wonder if those who were critical of Owen Smith doing it on here will also be critical of it now?

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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18317 on: May 9, 2021, 03:22:55 pm »
Johnson would love Starmer to get the heave-ho.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18318 on: May 9, 2021, 03:23:43 pm »
They appear to be less able to discern fact from fiction. And the traditional gatekeepers of information have been pummeled by social media. So yes, maybe they are 'better educated', but if the tools for misinforming and misleading people have moved even more forward (which they undoubtedly have done), the required general level of education (ability to reason) have fallen behind what is now required.

Education does not determine intelligence.
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Re: The RedGlen obviously titled Politics Thread. Politics? In here, son..
« Reply #18319 on: May 9, 2021, 03:30:26 pm »
https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1391383166569664521?s=20

An example of an MP that makes you lose all respect for the actual job. Not that I had much respect for this parliament anyway, utter dog shit.