Author Topic: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell  (Read 444641 times)

Offline redtel

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #80 on: August 15, 2016, 11:57:05 am »
Examining the game and who made mistakes is just looking at the small picture.

Who is challenging Moreno for his place?  He needs competition to make him improve his game and to take in what he is being taught. I see no improvement from the end of last season.

Milner can only be a short term answer to our LB position.

Why has nobody been brought in after we allowed the two challengers to either be sold or loaned.

Anyone care to shed light on what our plan is for this position?  Is it Moreno and Milner in rotation because Milner is surplus in midfield and yet has a hefty contract?

We have tried to get a young promising player in Chilwell but no bid for an experienced defender.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #81 on: August 15, 2016, 11:58:39 am »
My thoughts exactly. Lucas got booed because he wasn't Alonso or Gerrard but he's was never a liability in the way Moreno, Konchesky or Paulsen were. And I genuinely think Moreno is in that category of player.

If Moreno is that bad a player, why does Klopp keep on picking him?

Beyond a 19 year old inexperienced player, why have we not targeted a left back from the end of last season? Our entire transfer strategy so far this summer suggest Klopp is happy with Moreno starting at left back.

I'm not trying to say Klopp can do no wrong. However, there's got to be reasons why Klopp thinks Moreno should be persevered with. What do you (and others) think they are? Why don't you think we've gone for a more defensive minded left back this summer?
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2016, 11:58:49 am »
I will say one thing, whether Moreno won the ball or not for the penalty, it all stemmed from him clearing the ball across his own box on his weaker foot instead of out of play. You can't unteach that level of stupidity. The first rule you learn as a defender is to never blindly play the ball across the defense.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2016, 12:04:23 pm »
If Moreno is that bad a player, why does Klopp keep on picking him?

Beyond a 19 year old inexperienced player, why have we not targeted a left back from the end of last season? Our entire transfer strategy so far this summer suggest Klopp is happy with Moreno starting at left back.

I'm not trying to say Klopp can do no wrong. However, there's got to be reasons why Klopp thinks Moreno should be persevered with. What do you (and others) think they are? Why don't you think we've gone for a more defensive minded left back this summer?


Isn't that why there is such a raging debate. Because nobody quite understands what Klopp is doing here.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2016, 12:09:52 pm »
Moreno will get more stick and harsher comments than most because people *still* dont want to say anything remotely negative about Klopp and his unwillingness to take him out of the team and/or replace him.

So Moreno will get all of the criticism he deserves for being shite, as well as some extra which should be put at Klopp's door because he keeps picking him in the face of overwhelming evidence that he's not good enough.

Hopefully Jurgen see's sense in the next two weeks because the lack of urgency in getting another player for this position is bollocks.

Which shouldn't be the case. That's the beauty of having fans forums because people can share their opinions even if it differs from someone else. Forums would be pretty dull if everyone agreed on things.  Klopp isn't perfect. No one is. People should be allowed to criticise him or a player providing they don't overstep the mark and start being disrespectful
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:11:23 pm by SkySportsNews »

Offline redmark

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2016, 12:16:01 pm »
Isn't that why there is such a raging debate. Because nobody quite understands what Klopp is doing here.

I think the one thing we can conclude about Klopp's view is that tactically, Moreno is doing pretty much what he wants him to do - or he wouldn't keep picking him, he would have put a higher priority on signing a LB. We still get posts about wanting a more 'solid' player at LB, who doesn't get forward or doesn't do so so early in a move. But we don't see Klopp go beserk on the touchline when Moreno starts sprinting right at the start of a counter attack.

On a related note, we saw Clyne yesterday playing quite differently than he did for much of last season in possession - much more regularly simply taking on his opponent for pace rather than stopping and laying the ball inside. The indications from that might be, comparing the two fullbacks, that Klopp wants Clyne to be more positive, rather than getting Moreno to be more cautious.

Moreno has good ball skills and top class speed, agility and stamina in that role (for which those are key attributes). He's - very - prone to certain types of mental error - switching off, losing his man, rash challenges. He made some progress in addressing those last season, but reverted at the end of last and the start of this.

So essentially I think Klopp wants a LB like Moreno; but with better focus, concentration and consistency. It seems he still has some belief that Moreno might improve further on those qualities, but certainly knows he needs competition and has been looking to sign the right player (not any player) to do that in the long term.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2016, 12:17:25 pm »
Isn't that why there is such a raging debate. Because nobody quite understands what Klopp is doing here.

I think it's because Klopp is more interested in a full back's attacking contribution than his defensive lapses. I'm pretty sure Klopp will apportion exactly 0% of the blame for the first goal to Moreno. In fact, I'd say Moreno was exactly where Klopp would have wanted him to be when Lallana lost the ball.

Both Clyne and Moreno clearly have orders to push forward as soon as we gain possession, Klopp won't blame Moreno for obeying his instructions.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2016, 12:17:43 pm »
I think the one thing we can conclude about Klopp's view is that tactically, Moreno is doing pretty much what he wants him to do - or he wouldn't keep picking him, he would have put a higher priority on signing a LB. We still get posts about wanting a more 'solid' player at LB, who doesn't get forward or doesn't do so so early in a move. But we don't see Klopp go beserk on the touchline when Moreno starts sprinting right at the start of a counter attack.
If Milner hadn't been injured there was every possibility he would have started ahead of Moreno.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2016, 12:19:04 pm »
If Milner hadn't been injured there was every possibility he would have started ahead of Moreno.

Sure - but if Klopp shared the view of Moreno with Carragher, Gary Neville and most of RAWK, we'd have bought any half decent LB who was available this summer. We haven't.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2016, 12:20:26 pm »
A mate of mine avid gunners supporter said to me after the game. You need a new left back and a keeper. I think Klopp is fully aware of the situation, but at present no replacement fits the bill. I expect us to solider on maybe in the January transfer window one will be found. What i see is plenty screaming for a replacement, but know one is coming up with a realistic option.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2016, 12:21:14 pm »
It's partly a hangover from the Sevilla game. The penalty was daft from him. The goals weren't his fault though yesterday.

The narrative is set now though that he's our weak link and he will be targeted by media and opposition managers. The fans at Anfield will be on his back as well.

We've made a bit of a mess of providing competition and cover for the full backs. Flanagan got a new contract and went into the season ostensibly as left back and right back cover and then a week before the season gets loaned out to leave us with no senior cover bar a makeshift midfielder.

If Klopp didn't think Flanagan was up to it this year then he has to sign someone who is. Even Smith and Randall have gone.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:26:29 pm by Bitter Mug »
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2016, 12:24:09 pm »
Sure - but if Klopp shared the view of Moreno with Carragher, Gary Neville and most of RAWK, we'd have bought any half decent LB who was available this summer. We haven't.
Yeah that's a fair point, although Klopp does appear to rate Milner as a better full-back than any of the other options out there.

I'm also unsure Moreno is doing exactly what Klopp has instructed him to do as others have mentioned. If he's pushing up early under orders does that mean Clyne isn't following orders by holding his run until he feels it's necessary. I remember a goal we conceded last season from Moreno going AWOL and in Klopp's post match interview he said he had no idea where our left was.
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Offline leiva-pool

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2016, 12:24:45 pm »
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2016, 12:24:57 pm »
Sure - but if Klopp shared the view of Moreno with Carragher, Gary Neville and most of RAWK, we'd have bought any half decent LB who was available this summer. We haven't.

Swap out Klopp for Wenger, and Moreno for Wilshere/Flamini/any other substandard DM he picked for too long because he wouldnt invest/address a clear flaw in the team and you start to see things in a different light.

Klopp clearly has identified the need for a new LB, we pursued Chillwell for how many months? And yet here we are with the season starting and our current LB still not good enough without anyone else through the door and the one that we were chasing having signed a new contract with his club because we wouldnt pay the (not too extravogant) fee they wanted.

Its Wenger esq and I'm personally hoping it doesnt become a trend that the manager is too concerned with value over fixing problems which need sorting out.

2 weeks to fix this one, hopefully we will do.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2016, 12:29:41 pm »
Swap out Klopp for Wenger, and Moreno for Wilshere/Flamini/any other substandard DM he picked for too long because he wouldnt invest/address a clear flaw in the team and you start to see things in a different light.

Klopp clearly has identified the need for a new LB, we pursued Chillwell for how many months? And yet here we are with the season starting and our current LB still not good enough without anyone else through the door and the one that we were chasing having signed a new contract with his club because we wouldnt pay the (not too extravogant) fee they wanted.

Its Wenger esq and I'm personally hoping it doesnt become a trend that the manager is too concerned with value over fixing problems which need sorting out.

2 weeks to fix this one, hopefully we will do.

It goes back to last summer when Rodgers made a real hash of providing full back cover for Moreno and Clyne and we ended up with Gomez at left back and then he got injured leaving us to play over 60 games with no cover bar Klopp bringing back Smith who Rodgers released. We got lucky Clyne and Moreno stayed fit.

For it not to be addressed this summer is also negligent.  I'd have expected even as a last option Klopp would go back for Schmelzer or someone.  You'd think someone like Rodriguez would have been on the list rather than faffing round for months over Chilwell.

We're a Clyne injury away from a full back crisis.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:31:46 pm by Bitter Mug »
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2016, 12:31:28 pm »
It goes back to last summer when Rodgers made a real hash of providing full back cover for Moreno and Clyne and we ended up with Gomez at left back and then he got injured leaving us to play over 60 games with no cover bar Klopp bringing back Smith who Rodgers released. We got lucky Clyne and Moreno stayed fit.

For it not to be addressed this summer is also negligent.

Klopp's had two windows to address it, this isnt at Rodgers' door. It needs sorting in the next few weeks.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2016, 12:33:09 pm »
Klopp clearly has identified the need for a new LB, we pursued Chillwell for how many months? And yet here we are with the season starting and our current LB still not good enough without anyone else through the door and the one that we were chasing having signed a new contract with his club because we wouldnt pay the (not too extravogant) fee they wanted.

Its Wenger esq and I'm personally hoping it doesnt become a trend that the manager is too concerned with value over fixing problems which need sorting out.

So essentially I think Klopp wants a LB like Moreno; but with better focus, concentration and consistency. It seems he still has some belief that Moreno might improve further on those qualities, but certainly knows he needs competition and has been looking to sign the right player (not any player) to do that in the long term.

If he wants a starting LB as a matter of urgency, he wouldn't only be pursuing a 19 year old with eight Championship appearances under his belt.

The Wenger-esque stuff isn't exploring what Klopp might be thinking, but you concluding that Moreno isn't upto it therefore Klopp must have a blindspot if he doesn't agree. Which might be accurate, but not really the point I was talking about (or generally a very interesting way of debating stuff on RAWK).
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2016, 12:33:14 pm »
Klopp's had two windows to address it, this isnt at Rodgers' door. It needs sorting in the next few weeks.

I said it goes back to last summer but Klopp should have addressed it by now.

If we can't find a left back then even sign a right back and play Clyne there.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #98 on: August 15, 2016, 12:37:36 pm »
I just read the thread title and laughed.

U WOT M8

Grown man earning thousands and thousands of pounds to play for one of the worlds top clubs.....but playing badly for a significant amount of time.......needs more support? From who?? Let's leave the 'support network' stuff to the manager and the staff.

How about....needs to be given strong competition for his place at LB in order to drive home the message that he is a poor LB?

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #99 on: August 15, 2016, 12:37:36 pm »
The lad will never be a left back in a four simple as that. Constantly out of position to the degree that all his challenges both inside and outside the box are made from behind after the player is past where Moreno should be.

He needs a team that plays with wing backs in a five to have the faintest chance of coming away from a game unscathed.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #100 on: August 15, 2016, 12:38:37 pm »
He's reckless and switches off all the time. To say he wasn't at fault for the first yesterday, is a ridiculous comment.

Our last two competitive games he has made (in my view) three critical errors. No witch here hunt, but he is a liability at the moment. 


Not completely at fault for the first. Where was Klaven? Henderson or any other midfielder? Answer: Folowing the ball over on the right side. rewatch that goal. It was poor to lose the ball and it was a poor reaction from a few players, not just Moreno.
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Offline lessthanmatt

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #101 on: August 15, 2016, 12:39:15 pm »
You can see that technically he's a good player, but he's just soooooo brainless. You can't iron that out in a few games or a few weeks. He's just soooo stupid, in a footballing sense. Positioning, decision-making and the like - woeful
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #102 on: August 15, 2016, 12:40:27 pm »
If he wants a starting LB as a matter of urgency, he wouldn't only be pursuing a 19 year old with eight Championship appearances under his belt.

The Wenger-esque stuff isn't exploring what Klopp might be thinking, but you concluding that Moreno isn't upto it therefore Klopp must have a blindspot if he doesn't agree. Which might be accurate, but not really the point I was talking about (or generally a very interesting way of debating stuff on RAWK).

Ive not said starting LB, but *clearly* its now a given that we were looking at someone, right? And that someone was Chillwell, who we were priced out of going for.

All the signs were that we were very keen not only to fill that spot, but to fill it with Chillwell and that he also wanted to come here. The sticking point was Leicester's asking price.

So what other conclusion is there other than Klopp pulling out of it because he didnt think it represented value, and subsequently (so far) leaving us short on both the option to remove Moreno completely becuase he's shit (IMO, but in reality too) and also just to have some genuine cover.

Apparently the defence for Klopp keeping faith with Moreno is that he needs specific things from a fullback, he needs them to be able to stay wide, get up and down and be a threat going the other way.

And yet people also seem to be content with him thinking that the right footed James Milner and/or Joe Gomez neither of whom are even fullbacks let alone attacking left footed fullbacks are adequate cover for the flakey one we're currently starting.

It doesnt add up.


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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2016, 12:42:16 pm »
All players deserve our support I'd say as it might make them play better and in turn might make us win games. Yet supporting them during games doesn't mean turning a blind eye to their faults. He was caught out twice resulting in two huge chances for Arsenal to make the game a whole lot more difficult, one of which they took and those mistakes need to be cut out asap as we're not going to score four every week, realistically..
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #104 on: August 15, 2016, 12:43:25 pm »
Happy to support him. There is a good player there that will improve.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #105 on: August 15, 2016, 12:46:25 pm »
When Moreno is selected & in the starting line up-get behind the lad regardless of your opinion on him.

We can analyse his game afterwards.

No player is immune to criticism.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #106 on: August 15, 2016, 12:48:00 pm »
I just read the thread title and laughed.

U WOT M8

Grown man earning thousands and thousands of pounds to play for one of the worlds top clubs.....but playing badly for a significant amount of time.......needs more support? From who?? Let's leave the 'support network' stuff to the manager and the staff.

How about....needs to be given strong competition for his place at LB in order to drive home the message that he is a poor LB?


I just read the bit in bold and decided not to read the rest of your post   :)
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #107 on: August 15, 2016, 12:48:21 pm »
Babu explained perfectly the reason Jurgen keeps picking him and/or not replacing him a few days ago but most just argued the toss with him rather than try to understand the tactics being used.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #108 on: August 15, 2016, 12:48:27 pm »
When Moreno is selected & in the starting line up-get behind the lad regardless of your opinion on him.

We can analyse his game afterwards.

No player is immune to criticism.

I wasn't at the game and don't know if he suffered abuse from our fans but I thought what you said was a given for any of our players?
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2016, 12:52:14 pm »
Babu explained perfectly the reason Jurgen keeps picking him and/or not replacing him a few days ago but most just argued the toss with him rather than try to understand the tactics being used.
Please can you post that post here then.

Seems like a good enough place to.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2016, 12:53:42 pm »
I just read the bit in bold and decided not to read the rest of your post   :)
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2016, 12:54:35 pm »
I wasn't at the game and don't know if he suffered abuse from our fans but I thought what you said was a given for any of our players?

Yep it is,and there is no witch hunt.
Moreno is getting criticism because of his performances.
Migs has been there too recently & has been praised for a good performance yesterday.
If Moreno played well I'd be the first to congratulate the lad.
Funny fickle 'ol game eh
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #112 on: August 15, 2016, 12:57:33 pm »
You can see that technically he's a good player, but he's just soooooo brainless. You can't iron that out in a few games or a few weeks. He's just soooo stupid, in a footballing sense. Positioning, decision-making and the like - woeful

Just like Jose Enrique.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #113 on: August 15, 2016, 12:57:35 pm »


The narrative is set now though that he's our weak link


It's not a narrative. It's the reality.

He played two finals for us last season. He cost us one of them and got hauled off and replaced by a centre midfielder in the other after being at the scene of the crime for the goal in that game as well.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 12:59:17 pm by King Klopp. »
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #114 on: August 15, 2016, 12:59:38 pm »
I wasn't at the game and don't know if he suffered abuse from our fans but I thought what you said was a given for any of our players?

No, he wasn't given any major abuse by our own fans inside the stadium. (not that I could hear anyway) and rightly so.  Naturally there were moans and groans but that's just par for the course and can happen to any player if they make mistakes.

Just internet hysteria and media outlets comparing Moreno's sins to them off a Banana Republic dictator.

Klopp seems to like him and I reckon Alberto just needs a decent bit of competition at LB

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #115 on: August 15, 2016, 01:01:03 pm »
And yet people also seem to be content with him thinking that the right footed James Milner and/or Joe Gomez neither of whom are even fullbacks let alone attacking left footed fullbacks are adequate cover for the flakey one we're currently starting.

It doesnt add up.

If you think Moreno is on the Konchesky level, then no, it doesn't add up - because we'd have bought a LB (and a more experienced one than Chilwell) on the 1st July. But those conversations go round in circles until the player suddenly proves people wrong, or gets replaced. What I think is more interesting to discuss and responded to was the point about what is Klopp thinking, based on what he's doing and saying - because certain points (picking Moreno, pursuing a 19 year old who's never played at the top level, being apparently content to start a season with Moreno/Milner) suggest that Klopp doesn't put Moreno in the Konchesky bracket, even if isn't convinced he's the perfect answer.

Now, as Moreno's brain farts continue, that suggests two points regarding Moreno specifically and a 'Moreno-type' player, generally:

- Klopp thinks Moreno can reduce the frequency of the brain farts (and arguably did, for a spell last last season)

- Moreno isn't generally disobeying orders; so while Klopp did criticise him last season (I think the one Funky Gibbons is referring to was defensively chasing the ball into the centre circle needlessly, rather than bombing forward in attack) for a specific 'out of position' failure, it implies he doesn't regard - for example - the first goal yesterday as being such a glaring example of it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 01:02:37 pm by redmark »
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #116 on: August 15, 2016, 01:01:59 pm »
Please can you post that post here then.

Seems like a good enough place to.

I'm on my phone and no idea how to but it's in the shit chat thread.  I'll post it when I'm on my laptop unless someone else finds it first.

There's also a brilliant piece from an analyst on the tactics Jurgen uses and how Moreno fits them somewhere too.

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #117 on: August 15, 2016, 01:02:25 pm »
It's not a narrative. It's the reality.

He played two finals for us last season. He cost us one of them and got hauled off and replaced by a centre midfielder in the other.

I said going into the season he's our weak link (pre Karius injury) so its not a narrative I disagree with but I don't see how he recovers from it while continuing to be a starter. He hasn't got a Mascherano to babysit him either.

He can't suddenly learn how to defend properly anymore than Carragher could learn how to bomb forward like Roberto Carlos all game when he played there. We could tell him to stop bombing forward but that's what he's good at.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 01:04:53 pm by Bitter Mug »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #118 on: August 15, 2016, 01:02:26 pm »
No, he wasn't given any major abuse by our own fans inside the stadium. (not that I could hear anyway) and rightly so.  Naturally there were moans and groans but that's just par for the course and can happen to any player if they make mistakes.

Just internet hysteria and media outlets comparing Moreno's sins to them off a Banana Republic dictator.

Klopp seems to like him and I reckon Alberto just needs a decent bit of competition at LB

You could be right about competition but my hunch is that he just can't play there. The mistakes and decisions he makes are basic and he's not improved or learned from his mistakes.
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Re: Alberto Moreno: Ghost in the Shell
« Reply #119 on: August 15, 2016, 01:02:46 pm »
Klopp clearly has identified the need for a new LB, we pursued Chillwell for how many months? And yet here we are with the season starting and our current LB still not good enough without anyone else through the door and the one that we were chasing having signed a new contract with his club because we wouldnt pay the (not too extravogant) fee they wanted.

Agree with this.

I've no problem with Moreno getting another season, if Klopp sees something in him worth persevering in then fine.  But he needs competition, even if it's a young player like Chilwell, someone who knows the position and is ready to come in and challenge for a place.  Shoehorning James Milner in there feels like papering over the cracks rather than trying to find a real solution to  the problem.

All players deserve our support I'd say as it might make them play better and in turn might make us win games. Yet supporting them during games doesn't mean turning a blind eye to their faults. He was caught out twice resulting in two huge chances for Arsenal to make the game a whole lot more difficult, one of which they took and those mistakes need to be cut out asap as we're not going to score four every week, realistically..

Yep.

I support Moreno as I do every Liverpool player, I want him to do well here as I have done since the day he walked through the door. 

But supporting him doesn't preclude criticism/discussion if and when he makes mistakes.  And Moreno makes too many mistakes.  The media can say what they want, that doesn't bother me, but I don't think there's any witch hunt amongst supporters