Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1189635 times)

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13680 on: December 27, 2010, 03:49:58 pm »
La Maisa: Where Barca's stars are produced.

Xavi Hernandez, the world's finest midfielder, remembers the advice he received when, at age 10, he made a first tentative journey to La Masia, the 18th century farmhouse in the shadow of the Camp Nou where Barcelona school their youngsters.

"My coach said, 'Watch how Pep Guardiola plays. He is perfect in his position - your position.' And he was right. If Pep was still playing he'd be in the side ahead of any of us."

Xavi's progress meant he eventually played alongside Guardiola, now the first La Masia graduate to coach the first team.

"For three years I played with Pep in the first team and I kept on learning," he said.

"In the game and after the game. He's an obsessive, like me. We're both fans off the pitch. We still talk about teams, players and tactics every day."

Xavi, 30, is famed graduate of Barca's hugely successful youth system, which takes boys as young as seven and turns them into world-class footballers.

"FC Barcelona is a school and I've been privileged to be a student," he said. "It doesn't just educate you to be a good footballer, but a good person, too. It's a good environment which also teaches respect, a working mentality and discretion."

Xavi and Guardiola are not the only ones.

Barca's first team, generally considered to be the best in the world, regularly contains seven or eight players who came through La Masia. Lionel Messi, Carles Puyol, Xavi and Andres Iniesta are just a few of the players who came through La Masia and did not cost Barca one euro in transfer fees, products of a system which produces more top-level footballers than any other and which takes as long as 15 years to develop a player.

"We don't tend to sign a player at 17 or 18 because it's almost impossible for them to make it," said Quique Costas, a Barca teammate of Johan Cruyff in the 1970s and an experienced youth coach. "They won't have been taught to play the Barca way."

The "Barca way" is not the stuff of myth, but a methodology inspired by Cruyff, the Dutch legend and Barca hero, which has delivered sustained success.

"Players have to think quickly and to play with intelligence, always knowing the next pass," Guardiola said. "It is how we have all been taught and how the public expects us to play."

Cruyff introduced the system when he became coach in 1988.

To this day foreign coaches are accommodated at Barca's new training ground on the southern fringes of the city to study the Cruyff-inspired training methods and philosophies. They watch the kids, the youth teams who live at La Masia, the reserves and the first team.

Tommy Wilson, coach of the reserve team for the Scottish club Rangers recently returned from studying Barcelona's methods.

"The Barca B team is fourth in the second division in Spain. That gives them flexibility. A player from the B team can go up and play in the first team and a first-team player can come down and play in the B."

Wilson would like to see a radical shake up of Scottish football so reserve teams can play against senior sides.

Guardiola, though proud of Barca's system, has a more prosaic view.

"Other youth academies in Spain are also doing a very good job but the difference is that we give our youth players a chance," he said.

But there are other key differences.

"We teach the young kids that winning is not everything," said the coach of the eight-year-old boys.

"First, they have to play fair, then play offensive, then they have to win. Winning is important but not before the first two are accomplished."

The Barca youngsters playing in front of him as he speaks are, however, demolishing their opponents, to the delight of admiring parents who hope their sons are the next Messi or Iniesta. Unlike in other countries where the biggest boys tend to excel at youth football, Barca's boys are not big for their age.

They exhibit all the virtues of the first team, with the vanquished opponents barely touching the ball.

Nor are the boys in the famous maroon-and-blue stripes arrogant or conceited.

At the final whistle they applaud their parents from a distance, much like Messi and Co do to supporters.

Then they speak to their coaches for a post-match analysis and an interview with a journalist from Barca's website. They are media-trained before they turn 10.

"Talent and hard work is important for these boys," the coach said, "but in the long term hard work is more important." Not every aspect is a success. La Masia has never, for example, produced a top striker. Not in 30 years.

"The way we play doesn't require a striker," Costas said.

"And when the club feel they need a striker they go out and buy the best. With so many players developed already, we can afford it."

Barca's current roaming front three of Messi, Pedro and David Villa are nominally wingers, and even Villa, the "striker" brought in from Valencia, often plays in a wide position. This ensures that the goals are spread through the side.

żżż

Cruyff rightly gets much of the credit for Barca's vaunted academy, but Laureano Ruiz was the club's youth coach in the 1970s and introduced the 4-3-3 or 3-4-3 system for youth footballers. Barca won five Spanish youth titles under him.

Ruiz was promoted by Cruyff, the pair working together to develop Barca's "dream team" which would later win the 1992 European Cup.

Now 73 and in charge of his own coaching academy in northern Spain, Ruiz said: "There are two reasons why Barca had three Ballon d'Or nominees" in 2010 in Messi, Xavi and Iniesta.

"First, what happened in my time, which was later improved by Johan Cruyff. And then the Guardiola factor."

Several of Barca's current crop, the club's best yet, come from La Masia's class of 1987, the year of their birth.Despite being taught that winning was not everything, Gerard Pique, Lionel Messi and Cesc Fabregas would routinely win games by eight, nine or 10 goals.

"I have never come across a group as ambitious and competitive," said Alex Garcia, the long-serving coach of Barca's youth teams.

"Not just in matches, either, but almost more so in practice. Sometimes I had to apply the brakes.

"They treated practice sessions as if they were finals."

Much of Barca's strength resides in the shared experience from when they roomed and ate together at La Masia, their attitudes and lifestyles honed to that of professional sportsmen. They developed routines on and off the field, too, at a club whose institutional pride is tied up with the Catalan identity.

Not all the young players live in the dormitories of La Masia, which is like an upmarket youth hostel. Xavi, for example, commuted from his home in nearby Terrassa.

Typically, boys from outside Barcelona will move there at 14. Players like Iniesta recall being homesick. Thankfully, he soon settled.

By 14, players train for six hours a week and play one full 90-minute game at the weekend. A typical weekday begins with the players being bussed to a local school. They return at 2pm for lunch and a siesta, then train from 5pm to 6.30pm.

First-team players regularly drop by, heroes and inspirations on their doorstep. And with that solid foundation, Barca build for the future, always from the bottom, always upwards like the always popular human towers in Catalunya.

sports@thenational.ae

http://www.thenational.ae/sport/football/la-maisa-where-barcas-stars-are-produced?pageCount=0

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A good article about the Barca model.
Note the point about buying players at 17/18. They try not to because they fail to have the Barca way. Also the need to develop that Ideal rather than the physical, and the point about hard work more important. 

They also combine they youth level with big buys.

I can't help to think buying players like Arsenal do isn't  a complete model. To truly teach the pass and move the players need to highly involved in the theory of the game. Skill just isn't enough. Quick passing isn't enough nor is great movement. The complete model is highly intense and complex and needs years to develop.

I understand Degs point about Bolton ect. playing good football. I think he is forgetting Liverpool and Valencia often played good football under Rafa. More importantly i think Bolton would be destroyed in the Cl. You need quality to play great football at the highest level, otherwise to compete there you need to be able to stop those teams. Rafa did that, but in doing it he was giving up some of better football that we wanted. Until as a club we start producing or buying the best quality we will not succeed in both area's.
Under Rafa we needed the Cl money and as a result put that ahead of our league form. Once we did that we needed to implement the ideal into the club that would help produce top players. Five years too late Rafa was allowed that. It's impossible to judge the man on his complete footballing ethos until he either joins a club that has it already in place of is allowed to build it at a club.

P.s
It's nice to talk about football again.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 03:51:51 pm by Not funny reecehenebry »
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13681 on: December 27, 2010, 04:18:16 pm »
That's an excellent article.
We're in an urban area has a population of only approx. 800,000 of that around 15% is children under 15, of that half are boys which gives you about 6,000 lads that we can choose from.

Despite this relatively small selection you can now see in the Premier League:

Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, Martin Kelly, Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell, Victor Anichebe, Leon Osman, Tony Hibbert, Leighton Baines, Ryan Taylor, Kevin Nolan, Joey Barton, Scott Dann, Gary Taylor-Fletcher, Stephen Warnock, Danny Murphy

All playing in the Premier League so the talent is there.  Never mind the next generation like Andre Wisdom for us and Ross Barkley for Everton.

Offline Ambrosia

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13682 on: December 27, 2010, 05:28:22 pm »
I like this quote from the article

"FC Barcelona is a school and I've been privileged to be a student," he said. "It doesn't just educate you to be a good footballer, but a good person, too. It's a good environment which also teaches respect, a working mentality and discretion."

I think Premier League academies forget to teach their footballers those things. Imagine how far Gerrard could have gone had he been taught a less "me, me, superman" attitude.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13683 on: December 27, 2010, 08:52:30 pm »
I think barca have a local area of 100 odd miles from the city from which they(and espainol could pick). Bloody huge compared to what we have.

They also have the benefit of being a better option for Latin kids from South America.

Not saying it cannot be done. But Barca have utilized quite a bit they have in their favor.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13684 on: December 27, 2010, 09:33:57 pm »
I think barca have a local area of 100 odd miles from the city from which they(and espainol could pick). Bloody huge compared to what we have.

They also have the benefit of being a better option for Latin kids from South America.

Not saying it cannot be done. But Barca have utilized quite a bit they have in their favor.
I wrote one on it:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267176.0

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13685 on: December 27, 2010, 10:15:00 pm »
I wrote one on it:
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267176.0
Ah i read that one and *sheepishly forget it was your article.

Fair play.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline b_joseph

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13686 on: December 27, 2010, 10:16:26 pm »


I think Premier League academies forget to teach their footballers those things. Imagine how far Gerrard could have gone had he been taught a less "me, me, superman" attitude.
He got pretty fucking far with that apparent ''me me me'' attitude. I agree that players need to know those things but the player you highlighted is the wrong start.
How about we start with the likes of Pennant..a player who had worlds of ability but nothing upstairs.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13687 on: December 27, 2010, 10:18:07 pm »
He got pretty fucking far with that apparent ''me me me'' attitude. I agree that players need to know those things but the player you highlighted is the wrong start.
How about we start with the likes of Pennant..a player who had worlds of ability but nothing upstairs.
It goes for both. Gerrard could have been the best in the world. The very best.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline b_joseph

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13688 on: December 27, 2010, 10:22:44 pm »
It goes for both. Gerrard could have been the best in the world. The very best.
I agree but being one of the top 4 or 5 midfielders in your generation. That isnt exactly a sign of failure on his behalf.

Gerrards issue for the most part was who he played with in the early years and less on how he was coached. If he consistently player with great players when he broke into the team, he would have found a way to adapt his mentality. But because he was needed to play out of his skin from 2000 thru 2007, it took him on a path that he maybe wouldnt have gone down if he played for...for example Man United.
Well thats how i feel anyway.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 10:24:36 pm by b_joseph »

Offline Des Equilibrante

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13689 on: December 27, 2010, 10:33:35 pm »
I would have thought Gerrard's me me me attitude made him half the player he is today any way. It takes a certain type of arrogance to play how he does, grabbing the team by the scruff of its neck when the going gets tough.

His mememe attitude is probably the best and worst part of his game.
Some say he haunts Rawk threads.

All we know is, he's called Des Equilibrante

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13690 on: December 27, 2010, 10:37:59 pm »
I agree but being one of the top 4 or 5 midfielders in your generation. That isnt exactly a sign of failure on his behalf.

Gerrards issue for the most part was who he played with in the early years and less on how he was coached. If he consistently player with great players when he broke into the team, he would have found a way to adapt his mentality. But because he was needed to play out of his skin from 2000 thru 2007, it took him on a path that he maybe wouldnt have gone down if he played for...for example Man United.
Well thats how i feel anyway.
I think the Liverpool way of pass and move has been lost within the club since the bootroom lapsed with Souness. The youth trainers that Gerrard was schooled under didn't play that kinda football. Add to that Houllier was more interested in pumping Gerrard at times than making him the best player he could be. Gerrard should have never been given the armband. He is not a leader of men, more an example for leaders to help them motivate other players. Ged made Gerrard the best player that he could be considering the style of play he wanted.

he could have been the best. Had it all. Just needed the right philosophy and grounding as he started and came through into the first team.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Zeb

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13691 on: December 28, 2010, 07:52:12 am »
Do you think something like Watford are doing would work in Liverpool Degs? http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/17/england-world-cup-watford

Promise the parents and kids the best education the club can afford to give them while providing the facilities and intensive training?

Downside to the model is that it can cause a lot of hassle at a very young age moving kids out of a programme like this once they're in it.
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Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13692 on: December 28, 2010, 08:15:23 am »
Thanks, and thanks for the reply I'll go through it now.

I'm a football coach for under 8s, been up to Kirkby and Finch Farm and have seen/had my team against the excellent, excellent, youth teams that both Liverpool and Everton have.  The problem though is that the players you mention Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta would have had the odds massively stacked against them if they had been born in Walton and the reason for this is height. 

I see players getting let go at 10 because they are "too small". Making pass and move the philosophy at our club should stretch right down to the 7 year olds we sign.  We are far too concerned with churning out a physical specimen than enshrining a style of football.  If your football gets you into our Academy the thing most likely to get you out of it is your body type. 


This is close to criminal.. If I haven't misunderstood you, players being part of LFC's youth set-up are being let go at the age of 10 cause they are too small ?

I am involved with coaching in my local club and we have about 50 boys in the 8-9-10 bracket. I'd say 2 of those 50 could be heading for something and they're probably two of the smallest we have. One is a proper tiny little fella, but he's got the brains and skills of someone 3-4 years seniors his age and is a joy to watch..

If LFC's coaches still focuses on using muscles to beat the neighbours, its like being stuck in a time machine..
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13693 on: December 28, 2010, 11:58:22 am »
This is close to criminal.. If I haven't misunderstood you, players being part of LFC's youth set-up are being let go at the age of 10 cause they are too small ?

It's not just us either, I'm not even going to tell you how they find out how tall a kid is going to grow.
The odd small lad can fit through if he scores 10 a match (think Michael Owen) but he has all the odds against him.

Do you think something like Watford are doing would work in Liverpool Degs? http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/17/england-world-cup-watford

Promise the parents and kids the best education the club can afford to give them while providing the facilities and intensive training?

Downside to the model is that it can cause a lot of hassle at a very young age moving kids out of a programme like this once they're in it.

Ours is already like this in that there is a school on site and the lads are given a proper education. The only difference is they don't live on site but they really don't need to as most of the lads will be local at ages 10-15.  Liverpool is a tiny city geographically and you'll never be more than 1 hour away from the Academy. After all even Xavi didn't move into the Barca digs he just got a lift everyday.

The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.


Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13694 on: December 28, 2010, 12:04:30 pm »
It's not just us either, I'm not even going to tell you how they find out how tall a kid is going to grow.
The odd small lad can fit through if he scores 10 a match (think Michael Owen) but he has all the odds against him.


Finding out the height of the parents and use the std formula I assume..

Measuring head size I believe is limited to infants ;-)
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13695 on: December 28, 2010, 12:06:12 pm »
Finding out the height of the parents and use the std formula I assume..

Measuring head size I believe is limited to infants ;-)
No. I'm not saying what it is because I've been told we do and don't use it by 2 different people.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13696 on: December 28, 2010, 01:22:18 pm »
The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.

It's another reason to look to bulk up the squad from the lower leagues. Look for the clubs who traditionally play good football, pick out a player, offer a good deal in return including loans of promising players, and let them keep one or two of these youngsters with buy back and sell on clauses.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13697 on: December 28, 2010, 04:19:44 pm »
It's another reason to look to bulk up the squad from the lower leagues. Look for the clubs who traditionally play good football, pick out a player, offer a good deal in return including loans of promising players, and let them keep one or two of these youngsters with buy back and sell on clauses.
Would it be allow for Liverpool to sign other teams as feeder clubs.

I.e have first option on youth with us sending loan players to them?
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Ambrosia

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13698 on: December 28, 2010, 08:22:52 pm »
I would have thought Gerrard's me me me attitude made him half the player he is today any way. It takes a certain type of arrogance to play how he does, grabbing the team by the scruff of its neck when the going gets tough.

His mememe attitude is probably the best and worst part of his game.
I think in the 08/09 season he combined his "me me" attitude with team play very well. I just feel sad that we didn't get many more seasons like that from him, although i suppose that was the best side he played in so that may well have been the reason why he so consistently dominated matches rather than having world class"moments".

Regarding the coaching he received, i don't think anyone can deny that there is a certain trait amongst players that have come through the academy in that they have a divine right to play in the first team, especially if they're English. It's selfish, and if encouraged, it leads  to a hierarchy within the squad. Looking at the Barca squad there's an harmonious atmosphere where no player is superior than the other (even if they've come through the Barca ranks) and players willing accept that they may occasionally have to be benched for the benefit of the team. They've been coached to have the right mentality and been taught about team work. English/premier league players haven't which is why we see players having tantrums when not played/subbed, although admittedly that has lessened now that there is a more foreign presence in the league.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13699 on: December 28, 2010, 08:39:44 pm »
Would it be allow for Liverpool to sign other teams as feeder clubs.

I.e have first option on youth with us sending loan players to them?

There's no claim to a right to do anything. What it is is a mutually supportive arrangement, where the lower division club sells one of their players Liverpool find useful, and Liverpool include in the deal one or two players the lower division club finds useful. I'm not sure what kind of a forward Charlie Austin is, but he's a tall young striker who's currently scoring prolifically for Swindon. If he can be brought in to provide competition for Ngog, and in return, Swindon gets players like Darby, Mavinga or Palsson, on loan or in a permanent deal with buy back and sell on clauses, both sides gain, as do the players. Which areas of the squad are Ipswich currently chronically lacking in? Offer to fill out these areas as part of a deal for Wickham.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13700 on: December 28, 2010, 08:57:39 pm »
There's no claim to a right to do anything. What it is is a mutually supportive arrangement, where the lower division club sells one of their players Liverpool find useful, and Liverpool include in the deal one or two players the lower division club finds useful. I'm not sure what kind of a forward Charlie Austin is, but he's a tall young striker who's currently scoring prolifically for Swindon. If he can be brought in to provide competition for Ngog, and in return, Swindon gets players like Darby, Mavinga or Palsson, on loan or in a permanent deal with buy back and sell on clauses, both sides gain, as do the players. Which areas of the squad are Ipswich currently chronically lacking in? Offer to fill out these areas as part of a deal for Wickham.
I though that was already being done. Man utd have had other clubs in thier pockets by loaning players to be. Some of the players have been up to 22 years of age. then they sell them. Clearly they are sugaring other clubs up.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13701 on: December 28, 2010, 09:21:06 pm »
I though that was already being done. Man utd have had other clubs in thier pockets by loaning players to be. Some of the players have been up to 22 years of age. then they sell them. Clearly they are sugaring other clubs up.
They had a feeder club arrangement with Sporting Lisbon which eventually led to the Ronaldo deal.
This was soured by Querioz though and now City are "partners" with Lisbon leading to them having first pick on the likes of Tobias Figueredo, who is now City bound.

The Mancs have Fluminese in Brazil and Royal Antwerp in Belgium as "real" feeder clubs that players move between.

They have tended to keep it close to home lately, loaning to Ferguson's bum chums:
Bruce got Welbeck, Darren Ferguson got De Laet, Allardyce got Diouf.

Whereas we have to fight it out with Hull over the back pages when we send a lad out on loan.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13702 on: December 28, 2010, 09:46:08 pm »
They had a feeder club arrangement with Sporting Lisbon which eventually led to the Ronaldo deal.
This was soured by Querioz though and now City are "partners" with Lisbon leading to them having first pick on the likes of Tobias Figueredo, who is now City bound.

The Mancs have Fluminese in Brazil and Royal Antwerp in Belgium as "real" feeder clubs that players move between.

They have tended to keep it close to home lately, loaning to Ferguson's bum chums:
Bruce got Welbeck, Darren Ferguson got De Laet, Allardyce got Diouf.

Whereas we have to fight it out with Hull over the back pages when we send a lad out on loan.

I really don't understand the point in publicly berating Hull over mistreatment of Ayala. Mistreating his injury may have resulted in a few more weeks out, but keeping open the channels would maintain the possibility of giving some more young players good experience, and a developing relationship would mean Liverpool's advice on treatment of injuries would be listened to next time round. Some people are talking about making a point that Liverpool won't bend over for other clubs, but this is Hull we're talking about here. In any argument between the clubs, it's Liverpool who will have all the cards, and Hull begging for favours, so there's little to be gained in acting the silverback.

I think the way to go is to maintain good relationships with as many lower league clubs as possible, in particular those with a tradition of passing football. Rather than demand some kind of dominant-subordinate relationship, try to work out some arrangements that are reasonable and gainful for both. There is little to be gained from acting the bully, while there are short, medium and long term benefits to offering carrots and only showing the stick.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13703 on: December 28, 2010, 10:54:29 pm »
I really don't understand the point in publicly berating Hull over mistreatment of Ayala. Mistreating his injury may have resulted in a few more weeks out, but keeping open the channels would maintain the possibility of giving some more young players good experience, and a developing relationship would mean Liverpool's advice on treatment of injuries would be listened to next time round. Some people are talking about making a point that Liverpool won't bend over for other clubs, but this is Hull we're talking about here. In any argument between the clubs, it's Liverpool who will have all the cards, and Hull begging for favours, so there's little to be gained in acting the silverback.

I think the way to go is to maintain good relationships with as many lower league clubs as possible, in particular those with a tradition of passing football. Rather than demand some kind of dominant-subordinate relationship, try to work out some arrangements that are reasonable and gainful for both. There is little to be gained from acting the bully, while there are short, medium and long term benefits to offering carrots and only showing the stick.
Roy needs to supply quotes to the media, it's what his career is based on.
Why are you looking past this season?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13704 on: December 29, 2010, 06:52:18 am »
hold up.  has the level 3 thread started again?  you go on holiday for a month and blimey....

limited internet access until we back at the start of january but well done chaps.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13705 on: December 29, 2010, 09:00:51 am »
Steven Gerrard, Jamie Carragher, Martin Kelly, Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell, Victor Anichebe, Leon Osman, Tony Hibbert, Leighton Baines, Ryan Taylor, Kevin Nolan, Joey Barton, Scott Dann, Gary Taylor-Fletcher, Stephen Warnock, Danny Murphy

All playing in the Premier League so the talent is there.  Never mind the next generation like Andre Wisdom for us and Ross Barkley for Everton.
Hi Degs, great posts of late.

Just a quick point on the players mentioned above.  It's great we have a long list but even though we could make a team of them, it's the same problem as the England side.  It seems as though English players are developed in order to play in the Premier League rather than as a team.  They lack certain fundamental qualities which are generally made up for by foreign players in the PL.

As you say young players are being let go based on size.  I speak to parents who have children playing in youth teams and there is a consistent theme in that clubs are after tall, quick players.  The physical side is hugely important to clubs.

I'd say one of the key issues is the huge money gap.  The money generated from TV revenue needs to be filtered down to the lower leagues.  The lower leagues need to have a incentive to produce top quality talent which the PL clubs will find attractive.  At the moment most of the money is just going abroad and almost none of it is being seen by the lower leagues.

For example, I read recently that the average PL club earns £45m per season from TV revenue while the average Championship club earns £1m.  That is a huge gap and one that needs to be bridged.  Also on a side note, PL survival is deteriorating the level of football.  The potential financial loss from relegation is almost forcing teams to play 'not to lose'.  This needs to be corrected.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13706 on: December 29, 2010, 09:07:24 am »
The 'mememe' attitude applies equally to Torres, who had the same influences on his mindset; it is forever over-played on RAWK. You want leaders; you don't want me-me-me players. The 08-09 season was our finest of recent years because we rediscovered our true identity in the latter half of it - we became 'relentless' again. When JH was talking about this, my mind flew to those crucial matches where we became a hungry beast on the field, and Rafa was bemoaning five goals against AV because we could have had more. Is level 3 football relentless football by another name, or is relentless football level three football with an added mental edge?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13707 on: December 29, 2010, 11:14:50 am »
It's not just the Mancs who have done it when it comes to the youngsters going on loan to top Championship and mid to low table Prem sides. Look at Arsenal, they've sent a huge number of players out on loan over the past few years from Bendtner to Wilshere at Bolton last season. This is inspite of the attribute that inspires Wenger to fill his team with inexperienced kids.
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13708 on: December 29, 2010, 12:30:57 pm »
The 'mememe' attitude applies equally to Torres, who had the same influences on his mindset; it is forever over-played on RAWK. You want leaders; you don't want me-me-me players. The 08-09 season was our finest of recent years because we rediscovered our true identity in the latter half of it - we became 'relentless' again. When JH was talking about this, my mind flew to those crucial matches where we became a hungry beast on the field, and Rafa was bemoaning five goals against AV because we could have had more. Is level 3 football relentless football by another name, or is relentless football level three football with an added mental edge?
You will find the "me me me" attitude in any great player, for me it is hand in hand with ambition.
Giving Gerrard the captaincy was the best thing Houllier did after signing Hyypia.

Gerrard used to go missing in games that we weren't winning, he was like Torres is now - when we were playing great he was the best around, when we were playing poorly you'd forget he was on the pitch.  He was also very petulant, throwing bad tackles in and generally acting like a big kid. When he got the captaincy the change was almost immediate and I remain convinced that without the captaincy we wouldn't have seen the performances we have from Gerrard, with the captaincy comes responsibility and he has delivered in the FA Cup Final, the Champions League Final to name but 2.

The only problem we have is that we can't have 11 captains, Rafa obviously took this into account when buying players.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13709 on: December 29, 2010, 03:06:10 pm »


I think Premier League academies forget to teach their footballers those things. Imagine how far Gerrard could have gone had he been taught a less "me, me, superman" attitude.

just on that point i don't think SG was always like that, i think his football style developed into that under the GH years simply because he was miles ahead of everyone else in terms of ability, it took him a while to adjust under rafa and he began to trust players like Xabi with the ball and later torres, but his problem is as soon as we're behind he gets inpatient and ill disciplined . . . in fairness he often pulls it off but its doesn't help the players around him

i remember the times when SG or torres were out of the side, we actually won some big games and played good football, simply because the likes of kuyt, benyoun etc, would take the reponsibility of creating on themselves rather then just passing to the stars at the 1st opportunity

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13710 on: December 29, 2010, 10:53:05 pm »
The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.



I get the impression (if I'm really bored one day, I might do the research) that most big clubs (the Mancs and ourselves included) only loan out players who a) aren't thought likely to make it at the club, or b) are foreign and may need a bit of 'home' time in their development. A player like Gerrard or Owen isn't going to get loaned out.

Even on that basis, I still don't like loans. I'm yet to be convinced that the "experience" gained outweighs the loss of involvement with the club and, by definition in the majority of cases, a lower standard of coaching and players being trained with.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13711 on: December 29, 2010, 11:31:28 pm »
I get the impression (if I'm really bored one day, I might do the research) that most big clubs (the Mancs and ourselves included) only loan out players who a) aren't thought likely to make it at the club, or b) are foreign and may need a bit of 'home' time in their development. A player like Gerrard or Owen isn't going to get loaned out.

Even on that basis, I still don't like loans. I'm yet to be convinced that the "experience" gained outweighs the loss of involvement with the club and, by definition in the majority of cases, a lower standard of coaching and players being trained with.


I think that's a big problem with our youth system though is that if a player isn't ready to step into the first team at 16-18 they are thought of as having no place in the side.

The worst example of recent times being Mikel San Jose who we loaned out and let go at the age of 20 - now he starts every game for Atletico Bilbao and we brought in Kyriagkos.  I know who I'd rather have.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13712 on: December 30, 2010, 04:19:46 am »
I think that's a big problem with our youth system though is that if a player isn't ready to step into the first team at 16-18 they are thought of as having no place in the side.

The worst example of recent times being Mikel San Jose who we loaned out and let go at the age of 20 - now he starts every game for Atletico Bilbao and we brought in Kyriagkos.  I know who I'd rather have.


its all about transitions i suppose.  and the fact we made a net profit of 3 mill on san jose when holed below the waterline. 

sorry for short responses.  looking forward to getting stuck back into this when back in blighty.

happy new year y'all.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13713 on: December 30, 2010, 01:10:42 pm »
It's difficult, though redmark the top teams don't just loan out players who won't make it.

Many of their stars have been out on loan and have made it, from last season Wilshere at Bolton is a great example, now a regular in the first XI at Arsenal and England squad appearances.

I guess it's hard to quantify improvement gained from experience at a shite club when on loan to improvement gained by staying at the home club. However the old adage is that there is no better experience than 'game time' and if you're not getting that at the home club, regardless of whether your training at La Masia or not, it's more beneficial to be playing on loan.

This is why the Spanish league has an advantage, you can continue to train with your home club and use the wise coaches and pristine facilities whilst facing 2nd tier opposition every week only a division down from the first team.

It will never happen here, but it looks very likely it will in Scotland, I can see the benefits too.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13714 on: December 31, 2010, 04:16:19 pm »
It's difficult, though redmark the top teams don't just loan out players who won't make it.

Many of their stars have been out on loan and have made it, from last season Wilshere at Bolton is a great example, now a regular in the first XI at Arsenal and England squad appearances.

I guess it's hard to quantify improvement gained from experience at a shite club when on loan to improvement gained by staying at the home club. However the old adage is that there is no better experience than 'game time' and if you're not getting that at the home club, regardless of whether your training at La Masia or not, it's more beneficial to be playing on loan.

This is why the Spanish league has an advantage, you can continue to train with your home club and use the wise coaches and pristine facilities whilst facing 2nd tier opposition every week only a division down from the first team.

It will never happen here, but it looks very likely it will in Scotland, I can see the benefits too.

Many? Honestly I can only think of Wilshere, and regardless of his undoubted potential he hasn't 'made it' yet. I don't think stars get loaned. Not by Ferguson, at any rate - Wenger, perhaps.

I think that's a big problem with our youth system though is that if a player isn't ready to step into the first team at 16-18 they are thought of as having no place in the side.

The worst example of recent times being Mikel San Jose who we loaned out and let go at the age of 20 - now he starts every game for Atletico Bilbao and we brought in Kyriagkos.  I know who I'd rather have.


I agree absolutely. One of my criticisms of Rafa (and Houllier) at times was the 'need' to fill a few fringe places in the squad with journeymen (maybe a small transfer fee, signing fee and higher wages than an academy product) at the expense of a few youngsters. Players don't necessarily have to be potential world beaters to be a decent squad option occasionally, and I believe you only ever really see what a youngster might bring to the club, at the club. This has been discussed before, but a player (like Guthrie, or Spearing, for example) doesn't need to be a potential Gerrard - what about a potential Darren Fletcher? A minor squad player until he was 23-24, but a useful one now: and one that cost nothing, low wages etc for most of that time.
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Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13715 on: December 31, 2010, 05:01:02 pm »

Many? Honestly I can only think of Wilshere, and regardless of his undoubted potential he hasn't 'made it' yet. I don't think stars get loaned. Not by Ferguson, at any rate - Wenger, perhaps.
O Shea was loaned out as was Brown I think. It's more a case they really haven't produced any really class youngster's in the last ten years. Flecther would be the last to step up and he didn't go out on loan.
I agree absolutely. One of my criticisms of Rafa (and Houllier) at times was the 'need' to fill a few fringe places in the squad with journeymen (maybe a small transfer fee, signing fee and higher wages than an academy product) at the expense of a few youngsters. Players don't necessarily have to be potential world beaters to be a decent squad option occasionally, and I believe you only ever really see what a youngster might bring to the club, at the club. This has been discussed before, but a player (like Guthrie, or Spearing, for example) doesn't need to be a potential Gerrard - what about a potential Darren Fletcher? A minor squad player until he was 23-24, but a useful one now: and one that cost nothing, low wages etc for most of that time.

Rafa did play the youths that were at the club when he came. Mellor and Warnock come to mind. I think it was a case of not really having the players to do it with.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13716 on: December 31, 2010, 07:06:12 pm »
O Shea was loaned out as was Brown I think. It's more a case they really haven't produced any really class youngster's in the last ten years. Flecther would be the last to step up and he didn't go out on loan.
O'Shea? Hmmm, not sure that doesn't prove my point for me :). Brown was never loaned out - which fits with Ferguson's (and many pundits) expectations of him at the time being a rising star.

Rafa did play the youths that were at the club when he came. Mellor and Warnock come to mind. I think it was a case of not really having the players to do it with.

Yes, he did it when he arrived, but that's indicative of the problem. Following that, we signed some real journeymen (who were never going to get more than a couple of games a season anyway) rather than seeing if the youngsters could handle it. False economy I think, especially as it was a drain on already meagre finances.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13717 on: December 31, 2010, 09:06:29 pm »
Ours is already like this in that there is a school on site and the lads are given a proper education. The only difference is they don't live on site but they really don't need to as most of the lads will be local at ages 10-15.  Liverpool is a tiny city geographically and you'll never be more than 1 hour away from the Academy. After all even Xavi didn't move into the Barca digs he just got a lift everyday.

True that Degs, but I was thinking more of the advantages of bringing kids from anywhere to stay as boarders. It allows for some degree of subverting the current restrictions on bringing players in only when they're in their mid to late teens. Which is possibly a bit too late for some of them if you want to inculcate a whole philosophy which goes from under-8s all the way to the first team.

Quote
The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.

In fairness, I think some attempt was made to do this under Rafa wasn't it? We had/have a decent relationship with Hull, Forest and Swansea with regards to loaning out players and weren't attempts made to link up with some of the smaller Spanish clubs to provide some foreign experience? The Mancs have something of an advantage in that they've got decent relationships with managers and chairman at a couple of clubs - Mr.Ferguson was reflecting on his good relationship with Wigan when discussing recalling the lad they've got out on loan there today.

You're right about the big jump from youth to senior level - though wasn't Borell's critique that we were producing teams but not individuals recently? It's one of the things that he who shall not be named goes on about for a bit in his section on youth coaching - it's not about winning as a team in youth football (nice though that is) but to develop the individuals as they progress through the ranks.

Very much agree with you about ensuring young players have an opportunity on the big stage without being set up to fail. Mind, the treatment of some of our younger players has been pretty shocking by elements of our fan base in the recent past, and if the team isn't playing well it seems like most managers won't throw young talents into the team in case it sets them up to fail. (Thinking of what Fowler said about Souness' reluctance to play him at times amongst others).

Appreciate you taking time to put out your thoughts Degs. I'm struggling to see how one reinvents the wheel at the moment, so it's good to get the perspectives offered by posters like yourself.

Have a good new year guys.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13718 on: December 31, 2010, 09:41:08 pm »
True that Degs, but I was thinking more of the advantages of bringing kids from anywhere to stay as boarders. It allows for some degree of subverting the current restrictions on bringing players in only when they're in their mid to late teens. Which is possibly a bit too late for some of them if you want to inculcate a whole philosophy which goes from under-8s all the way to the first team.

Well we are only allowed to sign players within 1 hours drive of the club to begin with, our "catchment area".
If we find players outside that we can "persuade" the family to move to Merseyside and put them up near the club (this doesn't really happen though).

As for international transfers they're going to be near enough banned soon by FIFA.

Quote
In fairness, I think some attempt was made to do this under Rafa wasn't it? We had/have a decent relationship with Hull, Forest and Swansea with regards to loaning out players and weren't attempts made to link up with some of the smaller Spanish clubs to provide some foreign experience? The Mancs have something of an advantage in that they've got decent relationships with managers and chairman at a couple of clubs - Mr.Ferguson was reflecting on his good relationship with Wigan when discussing recalling the lad they've got out on loan there today.

You're right about the big jump from youth to senior level - though wasn't Borell's critique that we were producing teams but not individuals recently? It's one of the things that he who shall not be named goes on about for a bit in his section on youth coaching - it's not about winning as a team in youth football (nice though that is) but to develop the individuals as they progress through the ranks.

Very much agree with you about ensuring young players have an opportunity on the big stage without being set up to fail. Mind, the treatment of some of our younger players has been pretty shocking by elements of our fan base in the recent past, and if the team isn't playing well it seems like most managers won't throw young talents into the team in case it sets them up to fail. (Thinking of what Fowler said about Souness' reluctance to play him at times amongst others).

Appreciate you taking time to put out your thoughts Degs. I'm struggling to see how one reinvents the wheel at the moment, so it's good to get the perspectives offered by posters like yourself.

Have a good new year guys.

Rafa was never interested in that cup winning side because it was run by Heighway and the 2 were enemies with Rafa eventually getting Heighway sacked the reason being the "Good sides not good players" argument while Heighway thought winning 2 successive Youth Cups was as clear a point as any he was doing his job right.

If we are getting rid of players though I'd love for us to do what Real Madrid do and insert buy-back clauses in the agreements.  It'd mean we could buy back talents like Adam Hammill for dirt cheap and even if he wasn't going to make the grade here we could sell him on again for a bigger fee than we first got.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13719 on: January 4, 2011, 04:44:21 pm »

As for international transfers they're going to be near enough banned soon by FIFA.

Rafa was never interested in that cup winning side because it was run by Heighway and the 2 were enemies with Rafa eventually getting Heighway sacked the reason being the "Good sides not good players" argument while Heighway thought winning 2 successive Youth Cups was as clear a point as any he was doing his job right.


Is the bolded the way we signed Suso(& Arsenal signed Fabregas)?

As for the youth teams, how many players made it in the Premiership? I can only think of Warnock & Guthrie(maybe Stephen Wright). I would have thought Hobbs & Hamill will get there eventually , but are there anymore?