Topic: The Level 3 Thread

[fowlerisgod96]

And I would'nt be surprised if many of you now got your wish - albeit in circumstances you didn't want.

Agger I would suggest, is nailed on for a few starts.

At who's expense I'm less sure...

I wish he was, just cant see it.

[-Sad Fuck-]

Last night I said something along the lines of 'If there was room for him here, I'd have Lucho in an instant'.

That really came and bit me on the backside. Martinez would be nice, but I can't see him leaving.

[Mimi]

As much as he's about tackling, how many times a match do you see Masch drive past an opponent in the centre and carry the ball forward with a bit of pace?

Yep.

I know you and others might not agree with me but for this very reason, we need another CM. If Gerrard has a bad game and/or played behind Torres, or Masche is not available (and already taxed with defensive duties), we're screwed in the middle. It's too predictable. Smashing longballs for Riera or Kuyt to run onto is not taking the game or the initiative to the other team. 

One thing I like about Chelsea's game was how the shepherded our attackers to the side. We did that in our best games this season. This time we were on the receiving end.

Both the Chelsea backs had good games, and did a good job of protecting their CBs. Were Alex or Terry under any pressure today? We've struck fear into other top defenders by going straight down the middle. Where was that directness today? The one time we did it was when Arbeloa was allowed to cut inside and assist for Torres's goal. It's not like they were not making mistakes. They left a lot of space in the top of their box. That one chance that was created by Gerrard heading the ball onto Torres's path, ended up being saved by Cech. Lampard turned the ball over a few times just inside their own half.  We just weren't pressing enough to take advantage of it. By the end of the game, their backline was just strolling around because they didn't have to worry about being pressed.

Chelsea also did a good job of exploiting the space between our backs and CBs. How many of their attacks were directed at the space between Carra and Aurelio. And between Arbeloa and Skrtel on the right. Our defenders suffered because they were not protected by the guys who tracked back. Chelsea shielded Terry and Alex very well. We couldn't do the same for ours. Mascherano would have been useful in this because he is very good at helping the left/rightback shepherd and isolate their attacker. I think Alonso and Lucas did this quite well in the first half. But it's tough to keep it up all game especially when the left side was bad throughout. It also taxed them and made it difficult for them to help in our attack beyond launching longballs.

The only thing I would ask next Tuesday and I think they will deliver is a bloody good effort. It's not about making the next round, but about what that date means to this club and its supporters.

[Hank Scorpio]

I'm not denying Chelsea set up much like we do at our best, but there's a difference. Players who  had space at times and options found themselves finding touch or a Chelsea player with their passes. Torres on another day makes it 2-0 when he robs Lampard. They were gifted two goals.

We made it easy for them and we're a better team than we showed tonight. It's not all down to Hiddink and Chelsea. We are culpable.

I do like Hiddink but yeah, I'm in the camp that says that performance last night was NOT a tactical masterclass.  Rafa did not get Rafa'd.

Chelsea played very, very well, possibly better than we were expecting at this stage of the season and especially after going 1 goal down early.  What we need to remember is that their side if full of talented individuals who have every chance of putting in a display like the one they did yesterday.  Despite this, their opening two goals came from set pieces and clear errors on our side.  It wasn't a case of a wicked delivery or towering header, just the fact that we allowed the space for the headers.  The 3rd goal would never have arrived without the first two going in (as stupid as that sounds).

I think Benitez wanted to finish the tie yesterday bearing in mind the title challenge.  It was a possiblity after 6 minutes but Chelsea responded strong and credit to them. 

I think we need to remember that the team has put in so much over the last month or so.  There has been tremendous collective effort and to expect them to maintain such performance, especially when facing a side which plays that well, is perhaps a little unkind.

It is now Benitez's job to make sure the side is lifted before the weekend.  Morale is most likely to be low but this is where the leaders in the staff and squad need to take over.

P.S

It was difficult for Gerrard last night but what he sometimes needs to do is sacrifice himself for the team.  If Essien is going to stick to him then take him into areas where he will be ineffective (out wide, deep) and create space for others.  It will probably mean Gerrard is taken out of the game, like he was anyway, but he will take Essien with him.

[killer-heels]

P.S

It was difficult for Gerrard last night but what he sometimes needs to do is sacrifice himself for the team.  If Essien is going to stick to him then take him into areas where he will be ineffective (out wide, deep) and create space for others.  It will probably mean Gerrard is taken out of the game, like he was anyway, but he will take Essien with him.

He actually did that I think a couple of times. One was that incident in the first half where Xabi Alonso ran into and tried to play a through ball to Torres but kind of messed it up.

I think the worry is that in such tight matches we need someone from out wide or a much more deeper position to provide something special. Unfortunately, even though Torres and Gerrard were well marshalled, so were Riera, Alonso and Lucas. Only the Dirkster and Arbeloa got some joy down their side.

By the way, i saw these comments from Hiddink on another thread:

"It is not so difficult to know where the weapons and arms are in Liverpool. It is Torres and Gerrard and the triangle with Dirk Kuyt and the right-back Alvaro Arbeloa. This is what you have to disarm and Essien was key in this."

I think it can be perceived that he isnt holding us in high regard but I dont think that is the case. Alot of our play does come down the right and Gerrard manages to forge a much better understanding with Arbeloa and Kuyt than Riera and Aurelio. Im not sure what the assist figures are but I would think that the right side out weighs the left (although I appreciate that Kuyt and Arbeloa probably have played more games than Riera and Aurelio).

Just another aspect to improve on I guess. Watching Kuyt in the big games made me believe that he should be certain starter for every big match for the next few years. He gives us alot and makes a telling contribution in the team for these big games. I guess having him allows us the freedom to look for another match winner or flair player who can get close to Gerrard and Torres' match winning ability. We are all crying out for someone who plays on the right, but maybe its the left we need to look at, seeing as we have a good coach recognising the threat we have down the right.

Also, in terms of improvement, I agree with JL's and Mimi's suggestion of a midfielder with energy and dare I say, drive, who can press high up and get the team moving forward.

[Hank Scorpio]

He actually did that I think a couple of times. One was that incident in the first half where Xabi Alonso ran into and tried to play a through ball to Torres but kind of messed it up.

I think the worry is that in such tight matches we need someone from out wide or a much more deeper position to provide something special. Unfortunately, even though Torres and Gerrard were well marshalled, so were Riera, Alonso and Lucas. Only the Dirkster and Arbeloa got some joy down their side.

A couple times is not enough.

We did look vunerable but I thought Chelsea also looked vunerable, especially earlier on.  We had chances; Torres dispossessing Lampard, Kuyt 1 v 1 and in the 2nd half Torres from the left hand side of the area and near the end also.  This is all despite Chelsea playing very well.  Chelsea are still nowhere near as solid as they were a couple of seasons ago.  They let you have some chances here and there.  On another day Torres would have made it 2-0 or Kuyt would have made it 2-1.  Fine margins decide these games.

[b_joseph]

Tactical masterclass? Fuck that.

Yesterday was just one of those days when the team just had a complete stinker all at the same time.
The passing was off, the tackling/emotion wasnt there....everything that could go wrong, went wrong and Chelsea played the best I have seen them play in years.

People talk about how this player is crucial and that player is crucial. Fucking Mascherano was crucial....that bastard would have been snapping off crunching tackles here there and everywhere last night. How much of a piss take is it that he gets suspended because he kicked the ball away against Madrid...GRRRRRR.


But, this is sports and sometimes your planning doesnt go the way you thought it would go and you get beaten. But how you bounce back from being beaten shows how much progress has been made.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Tactical masterclass? Fuck that.

Yesterday was just one of those days when the team just had a complete stinker all at the same time.
The passing was off, the tackling/emotion wasnt there....everything that could go wrong, went wrong and Chelsea played the best I have seen them play in years.

People talk about how this player is crucial and that player is crucial. Fucking Mascherano was crucial....that bastard would have been snapping off crunching tackles here there and everywhere last night. How much of a piss take is it that he gets suspended because he kicked the ball away against Madrid...GRRRRRR.


But, this is sports and sometimes your planning doesnt go the way you thought it would go and you get beaten. But how you bounce back from being beaten shows how much progress has been made.

I don't know whether it was a tactical masterclass by Hiddink but Chelsea really did seem to identify our weaknesses last night. But we still could, and probably should, have been 2 up before they got their first. For whatever reason we dropped off, and they stormed their way through the rest of the match. They hit us very quickly on the break and we payed for it. Skrtel was a rock against Drogba last season but this time he was completely dominated.

But the main problem was the absence of Mascherano. I don't think Lucas did too badly, but it was evident that we needed someone pressing frantically in our third of the pitch. Neither Lucas or Alonso can give us this. Chelsea seemed so much fitter than us for long stretches. Having Mascherano in their, I doubt we would have lost the match. We may have even won it. No way would they have got so many clear cut chances with him shielding our back four.

Winning by 3 goals is a massive ask and probably beyond us. But Rafa will really look into it and analyse how to break down Chelsea so there's a small glimmer of hope. That and the return of Mascherano will be key to any chances we have.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Actually in terms of zonal marking, the system obviously wasn't implemented well, but Chelsea did very well to expose it for the first. The second goal was just a total lack of effort on our part and should never have happened. The first goal, however, was very well executed. Ivanovic broke forward and then moved continuously between two of our players, and we seemed a bit confused by it. It really did show a weakness in the system - which I'm sure can be rectified - in that rapid and chaotic movement between two zones is difficult to deal with.

[BazC]

Mimi- I agree with your post above, but it wasn't like that the whole match. In first half we were creating almost as many chances as them. The game was just way too open- something I was saying during the match- but people around me (couple of neutrals) were loving it.

In the 2nd half is when I think they turned the screw and stopped us playing- by then Torres was completely out the game (when previously he was as much a terror to their defence as Drogba was to ours).

Now that I've slept on it and the excess alcohol's out the system, I'm of the belief there's a glimmer of hope. This is nothing but a 7 point defecit with away goals down, 3-0 down at half time... Mascherano will be back, Rafa knows what he's up against (and from where I was sitting, Hiddink did take full advantage of our shortcomings) and Gerrard will be on a mission.

Zonal marking will certainly be better implemented- or you'd hope so anyway. Well, it was the part zonal part man to man marking we've been employing since last third of last season (when we were looking very vulnerable at every set piece- Rafa changed it to part man to man I think). Yesterday both aspects of that failed- Xabi's man to man marking wasn't tight enough (perhaps he got caught on his heals with Ivanovic's run, but he should have been ready), and when Ivanovic runs straight into Skrtel's zone- at the point where Xabi can't do anything he just runs in front of Skrtel and nods it in- Skrtel should have been attacking that. Same criticism of Gerrard for the 2nd- didn't attack it.

We tighten those areas up and we have a chance. We'll need luck for them to miss some of their chances- they will create them- but most of all I hope we can create them. They're well capable of just sitting back and watching us take the game to them- they've got strong athletes in key areas of the pitch so they have got that fight about them. We just need to identify their weaknesses now (Hiddink has them well organised compared to the last time we played them)- we have got the players to make the most of them.

 

[Degs]

That really came and bit me on the backside. Martinez would be nice, but I can't see him leaving.

He's only been at Bilbao for 3 years, and they would snap your hand off for about 10 million.

When I see him he's the player Lucas should be, every pass is forward, every time he gets the ball he runs, he's big, he's strong, he'd be perfect and he's only 20.

But for me we need to sort out the first 11 before we go strengthening the squad.  We still need a right winger, a centre forward, and a right back that can challenge Arbeloa.

But if we were looking out for a centre mid I'd want us to seriously look at Martinez, a true box to box player.
And while I hate 2 second YouTube videos (they can make anybody look world class) here's one of the moments it slapped me accross the face how good he is.

(He's the number 24 in the middle)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iI-v9Vvb9A8&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iI-v9Vvb9A8&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

[abhred]

I guess having him allows us the freedom to look for another match winner or flair player who can get close to Gerrard and Torres' match winning ability. We are all crying out for someone who plays on the right, but maybe its the left we need to look at, seeing as we have a good coach recognising the threat we have down the right.

Ideally, if we could get someone who could play both sides. Ribery, or more realistically, Simao.

Agree that Kuyt is a must in these big games. The flick to Arbeloa was brilliant. Far more impressive than what Rooney did for Tevez's goal.

Though I don't blame either for the loss, but if we had someone who was more imposing than Riera and Lucas, we'd have done much better. Because they were the players who were left. Chelsea concentrated on our right side, and Alonso. You'd expect the other midfielder, and the left side to step up but didn't. Lucas, Riera, and Aurelio especially, had stinkers. Kalou got the better of Aurelio in so many games.

In the end, I'll take it as a one off. Don't expect  it to ever happen again in the near future. It was a game, where we didn't play well, made small mistakes in marking, and were subsequently dominated by a team, that exploited our weaknesses very well on the day.

I'll still not give up. I just won't. Terry's out, and Carvalho, hopefully will miss. Ivanovic and Alex are good, but they just won't be able to deal with Torres-Gerrard if they are on song. No defense can, and with Masch back, we'd hopefully have much better control of the field. I'd also play Yossi on the left, because he's our 3rd best attacking player IMO.

Get an early goal, and it's on. Certainly, we attack best when we have to chase the game. We've got nothing to lose. Throw the kitchen sink. Believe!

[Mimi]

We are all crying out for someone who plays on the right, but maybe its the left we need to look at, seeing as we have a good coach recognising the threat we have down the right.

 A lot of our play does come down the right and Hiddinck's not the first to identify the Kuyt/Arbeloa/Alonso triangle.

But in all our best games this season, we've had our creativity be provided from our left. Mainly Aurelio playing very all in our big games. And then you usually get pretty decent contribution from Riera or whoever is wide left. The movement on our right is predictable most of the time--- Kuyt heads down or receives the pass to his feet and looks immediately behind him. In one way, he doesn't lose possession but in another it puts pressure on Alonso to deal with the ball. And I think our left was so terrible that day, they stopped looking for Riera or Aurelio and just settled for passing between themselves and hence the triangle. Kuyt and Arbeloa started off well but got worse as the game went on and that was due to lack of balance in our overall play.


Our left is less predictable. Hiddinck must have been rubbing his hands in glee when he saw how woeful Aurelio and Riera were. It made his job ten times easier. They were ineffective not just due to Ivancovic (sp?) playing there.They were just plain terrible on their own. Riera might want to have a rethink about waiting to receive the ball to his feet, and from a stationary position trying to take on Ivancovic. Dossena had a lot of joy in recent games by running between their RB and CB. Whoever plays wide left has to do that on Tuesday.

Chelsea did not completely cut out the Gerrard/Torres combo--- even heavily marked, Gerrard did head down a chance for Torres. Unfortunately for both, Cech was pretty awesome that day.

The next game let Gerrard drag Essien all over the pitch. Then Lampard is more exposed in the center. On Wednesday, we did this intermittently but we need to do it for the entire 90 minutes. But with Masche and Alonso on his ass, he is going to make more mistakes which Alonso can pass forward. And Torres should just run at whoever is their CB. Even if he doesn't get joy from it the first few times like against the Mancs when Ferdinand and Vidic were allowed to manhandle him to the ground. But eventually doubt creeps in and we will capitalize.

You hate to say it's all on one player's shoulders and maybe that is dramatic, but it's absolutely essential that Aurelio have a great game on Tuesday. Not just defensively to prevent our CB from being raped but also to help our attack and take pressure off the CMs.

And for godsake's do the elementary things right like winning the second ball and tackling. We're not the most skilled team, and perhaps part of our attack is predictable but we ususally outwork the other team in the elementary stuff. Players should just concentrate on this for Tuesday and the rest of the game usually comes.

[Yorkykopite]

We were a rabble by the end. The team - and probably most Liverpool fans - were praying for the final whistle. Chelsea, I imagine, were disappointed not to get a fourth. It will take a miracle for us to go through at Stamford Bridge and it'll be interesting to see how Rafa plays it. There's an argument now, I guess, for playing some fringe players and concentrating on our main objective - the league. For myself, the defeat isn't as wretched as it would have been last season or the one before, for the simple reason that the game v Blackburn will see me more nervous and in a greater state of anticipation than I was last night. The championship remains the priority.

But it's funny. I looked at Chelsea's team and thought we'd win fairly comfortably. Carvalho and Joe Cole are among their best players and compared with the Mourinho days when they could get at us in wide areas with Robben and Duff their team looked wonderfully narrow - especially without Bosingwa. Hiddink's great success in recent years has been with teams that constantly turn the flanks of superior opponents. Russia did this in the recent Euros, South Korea did it, and PSV did it in 2005.

Some people will be tempted to blame the free kicks. That would be ok if they were capable of drawing the right lesson - that zonal marking at set pieces is a gift to an aggressive, inventive attack which is intelligent enough to run from deep positions and scramble the zones. But that won't happen. Criticising zonal defence is too wrapped up with "Andy Gray" for it to get a fair critique from Liverpool fans. Shame.

But it was more than the free kicks which killed us. Drogba ought have scored twice from open play in the first half hour and as the game went on he took an absolute stranglehold on our central defence. If that had been Agger out there, instead of Carra and Skirt, we'd have all been moaning this morning about how 'lightweight' he is now. I sometimes wish that Agger was shit with the ball at his feet so folk could appreciate his defensive abilities more. But unfortunately he's superb in that department and his skills are so scintillating that they blind us to his mundane and efficient defensive work.

I wouldn't want to go overboard though. We aren't as great as some of us have been saying in the last few weeks, but we aren't as shite as Chelsea made us look last night either. The were some surprises, for sure. Fabio Aurelio was astonishingly poor (a blip I hope. I like him). Gerrard was completely tamed by Essien. Riera came up against a superb full-back where we'd all expected a poor makeshift one. And, for Chelsea, Kalou turned in the kind of fast-running, skilful, intelligent play that we can only dream about - or kid ourselves about - on the right. How often did Kuyt give the ball away last night? Well if you want to use the digits of one hand to count, then rephrase the question - how often did he find a Liverpool player? Abysmal. But there you go. He also looked knackered, even in the fist half - and left Arby to deal with a 2 on 1 on at least two occasions (the first leading to the corner they scored from)

Those that emerged with credit - Reina, Alonso, Torres and - strangely - Lucas. Bundled off the ball a couple of times, but he looked quicker and more intuitive than Ballack did for them.

Time now to defeat Blackburn and focus on number 19.

[b_joseph]

Would we have been better last night if Stevie started from the left and was given freedom to drift infield now and then?

Thats one thing I will credit SAF for...he is never unwilling to move CRonaldo around to take advantage of certain areas or move him area from certain areas.

Yossi is a better mover off the ball than Ste and would have made Essien move around also.
Movement off the ball is the last thing for Ste to master.

[Juan Loco]

I do have one question about the infamous zonal marking, one I'm sure has been asked before?

Why don't we actually attack the space? I don't mean all 4 players across the 6 yard box, but y'know, just our most dominant header of the ball (Hyypia, or worryingly in games like last night, Skrtel).

I don't think it's an issue with zonal marking in general. It's an issue with it not being used correctly. But, the one point consistently made about it is that the attackers get a running jump. Why can't one of the defenders? It's obvious that you can get a better leap if you're on the run. Just not sure why we haven't tried that with one of the defenders. Even if they're blocked off, you've still got the other 3 in there. Besides, as the defending team, any blocking will usually come as a freekick to us.


Just an observation. I mean if Pepe has a weakness it's that he isn't as good in the air as some. Might be better having someone like Skrtel have the running jump into the centre to try and clear the ball.

[Juan Loco]

Movement off the ball is the last thing for Ste to master.

You've not been watching our corners then?

[BazC]

I do have one question about the infamous zonal marking, one I'm sure has been asked before?

Why don't we actually attack the space? I don't mean all 4 players across the 6 yard box, but y'know, just our most dominant header of the ball (Hyypia, or worryingly in games like last night, Skrtel).

I don't think it's an issue with zonal marking in general. It's an issue with it not being used correctly. But, the one point consistently made about it is that the attackers get a running jump. Why can't one of the defenders? It's obvious that you can get a better leap if you're on the run. Just not sure why we haven't tried that with one of the defenders. Even if they're blocked off, you've still got the other 3 in there. Besides, as the defending team, any blocking will usually come as a freekick to us.


Just an observation. I mean if Pepe has a weakness it's that he isn't as good in the air as some. Might be better having someone like Skrtel have the running jump into the centre to try and clear the ball.

I think we do- Xabi was the one supposed to be running in and stopping Ivanovic for the first goal, with Skrtel finding Ivanovic in his zone. Both didn't do their jobs properly- and there was actually 2 chances for us to stop it- one with Xabi not challenging him, but then when he ended up in Skrtel's zone, there was another chance for us to stop him. We didn't. That's 2 mistakes in a system which had a sort of 'fail safe' built in- but when both layers of that fall apart and you have a free header, it's pretty bad. For the 2nd goal I think Gerrard was tracking Ivanovic but either the ball just went over his head (bad positioning) or he wasn't stronger in the air to stop the free header- from what I remember (that one I remember less vividly than the 1st one) I think the ball just sailed over his head with Ivanovic heading in.

[Juan Loco]

Yep.

I know you and others might not agree with me but for this very reason, we need another CM.

I don't disagree with you at all. I just don't think it's worth prioritising - I believe we could pick up a decent, journey-man 3rd or 4th choice with a bit of energy, for a relatively modest fee - and I don't think Gareth Barry is the answer. Or at least not at the sort of fees being mooted. Under £8m? Yeah, if everywhere else is sorted first. I mean we could get someone like Van Bommel, nasty bastard that he is, for a very small fee. Perhaps even free. (*grumble* and if City hadn't have played Billy Big Bollocks Nigel De Jong would have been on a bosman )

I do think, if we want to have the squad to win both the big competitions, we need one. I just don't think that it's the most important area to strengthen. Not by a fucking distance. In terms of where needs strengthening I'd say it's the opposite. Flanks, up front and right back are of more importance I'd say.

[Juan Loco]

I think we do- Xabi was the one supposed to be running in and stopping Ivanovic for the first goal, with Skrtel finding Ivanovic in his zone. Both didn't do their jobs properly- and there was actually 2 chances for us to stop it- one with Xabi not challenging him, but then when he ended up in Skrtel's zone, there was another chance for us to stop him. We didn't. That's 2 mistakes in a system which had a sort of 'fail safe' built in- but when both layers of that fall apart and you have a free header, it's pretty bad. For the 2nd goal I think Gerrard was tracking Ivanovic but either the ball just went over his head (bad positioning) or he wasn't stronger in the air to stop the free header- from what I remember (that one I remember less vividly than the 1st one) I think the ball just sailed over his head with Ivanovic heading in.

Sorry mate, I don't mean tracking. I mean coming out to meet the ball. Y'know how we have 4 strung across the 6 yard box? Well one of them, starting slightly deeper, running out to meet the ball. Coming out like a keeper with authority would.

I know we track but we're not exactly beastly in the air. It's a bit too easy for someone with a bit of hunger and athleticism to get the better of Xabi in a foot race and an aerial duel. It's just not Xabi's game.

[abhred]

I don't disagree with you at all. I just don't think it's worth prioritising - I believe we could pick up a decent, journey-man 3rd or 4th choice with a bit of energy, for a relatively modest fee - and I don't think Gareth Barry is the answer. Or at least not at the sort of fees being mooted. Under £8m? Yeah, if everywhere else is sorted first. I mean we could get someone like Van Bommel, nasty bastard that he is, for a very small fee. Perhaps even free. (*grumble* and if City hadn't have played Billy Big Bollocks Nigel De Jong would have been on a bosman )

I do think, if we want to have the squad to win both the big competitions, we need one. I just don't think that it's the most important area to strengthen. Not by a fucking distance. In terms of where needs strengthening I'd say it's the opposite. Flanks, up front and right back are of more importance I'd say.

Don't we, at the same time, need someone who can play a bit higher up, and pose a more attacking threat than Masch in certain games, to play along side Xabi. Or someone, who can play with Masch instead of Xabi, but still be able to distribute the ball efficiently. Gareth Barry fills all 3 roles for me, apart from being able to play on the left. I'd have no problem if we sold Dossena and Lucas (starting to thing that might happen), and sign Barry for a similar amount.

He's versatile not just in the sense that he can play on the left, but also that he can play different roles in the center. He's got enough athleticism about him to play instead Masch. Enough passing ability about him to play instead of Xabi. And enough attacking qualities to play alongside Xabi and Stevie.

Starting to make a lot of sense, Gareth Barry. As long as it's not more than say 10-12M, and not at the expense of Xabi, it's a very good move.

[BazC]

Sorry mate, I don't mean tracking. I mean coming out to meet the ball. Y'know how we have 4 strung across the 6 yard box? Well one of them, starting slightly deeper, running out to meet the ball. Coming out like a keeper with authority would.

I know we track but we're not exactly beastly in the air. It's a bit too easy for someone with a bit of hunger and athleticism to get the better of Xabi in a foot race and an aerial duel. It's just not Xabi's game.

Ah right fair enough. I agree completely with that, but how would it work with only one player doing it? Could it? I think for that to work we'd need at least 2-3 players outside the 6 yard box - having only one would more often see the ball either fall too short or behind him- he'd have no chance attacking it with so many bodies in there. But I guess that's the idea with zonal- as soon as a player sees the ball coming near him he should attack it- how much space/freedom they'd get to break from their zone to attack the ball is another matter... maybe that's what needs to be refined? For example with Skrtel yesterday-

http://www.d1g.com/video/show/?id=2774269

Maybe there's no freedom for him to run and challenge that ball? But looking at it again Ivanovic clearly got the position to attack precise- right in between Riera and Skrtel's zones actually. They targeted it, and the ball in was perfect as well. Maybe it was more a case of Chelsea knowing exactly where to challenge our defence in zonal situations... you'll also notice that Ivanovic wasn't running in as the ball came to him- he actually had to adjust his movement and was pretty static when he headed it in. The movement completely bamboozles Xabi and gets him in that weak spot between Riera and Skrtel.

Hell, maybe we could even have gotten past it by Xabi having a bit of communication with Skrtel once Ivanovic was free of Alonso?! But seeing it again it looks more like Ivanovic playing the system perfectly rather than Skrtel. Xabi should have been stronger at stopping his run, but the movement was just brilliant.

The second-

http://www.d1g.com/video/show/?id=2774377

Don't know what the hell Gerrard's doing there. Again, good movement from Ivanovic (and actually, other Chelsea players- our whole defence looked in disarray there) but Gerrard didn't do well there. He gets outmuscled by Ivanovic (who uses his strength- no foul) and just gets pushed out the way so he's out of position.

All in all- great movement by Ivanovic for both goals and good strength. The balls in were fucking good as well, especially that 2nd one by Lampard.


And after it all started so well-

http://www.d1g.com/video/show/?id=2774161

Ashley Cole there- so fucking shite. Part of me wants to see the match again to see where it all went wrong- but I think the goal we scored was so early on, maybe it gave our players false perception of the game from that point- the 2 Drogba chances afterwards should have sorted that our but it didn't really.

[royhendo]

We were a rabble by the end...

Didn't quote the whole post mate, but again it's a breath of fresh air.

The only point I'd query is the one on Lucas, as for me we lacked dig, and on a few occasions where he had space and you felt he'd make things happen, it just didn't transpire (not just the sclaffed shot).

The marking at corners perplexed me more at the second goal, because they didn't even appear to be running that powerfully from deep - it was just a failure to challenge. Adebayor last year, Ivanovic this. The first goal, though, seemed targeted at a zonal set-up, and we lined up with a steeper set up with more space resulting. You could smell the goal coming, couldn't you?

Anyway, I felt the first point you made was the most frustrating. We lost our plot, our shape, and our discipline/mentality - the things that have set us aside in recent weeks (alongside the resurgent form of Torres and Gerrard). My initial feeling was that the players must have started to believe the things they were reading in the press - that we were 'flying', and 'unstoppable', and that as a result they lost sight of the fact that it's all founded on hard work, organisation, and rock solid will to win. The quality sits on top of that foundation.

Fingers crossed it's a wake up call to them on that front because, as you say, the league's the big one now and nobody can deny it.

I'm not buying that Chelsea closed down Gerrard and Alonso and that was that though - Essien did well, but Gerrard still had his moments and had Torres had his finishing boots on, the little dinked header into his path had him in on goal.

The way they got in behind our midfield and bothering Carragher and Skrtel really riled me I have to say. It's not often you watch and feel actively disappointed in them, but that's how I felt last night.

[BazC]

The marking at corners perplexed me more at the second goal, because they didn't even appear to be running that powerfully from deep - it was just a failure to challenge. Adebayor last year, Ivanovic this. The first goal, though, seemed targeted at a zonal set-up, and we lined up with a steeper set up with more space resulting. You could smell the goal coming, couldn't you?

For the 2nd (videos above) they actually had a pocket of 3 attacking the corner- if Ivanovic misses, Alex also has a free header behind him. They were just way more powerful in the air and strong enough to make the heading chances- first getting away from Alonso for the 1st, and for the 2nd just outmuscling Stevie to put him out of position and get the space for the free header.

I'm actually hoping for Sami to come in in the next match. Add that steel in defence and strength in the air. He's also great at positioning himself for the tackle. It will be interesting to see if there's any significant changes to the team though (to CBs or Gerrard's position)- I don't think there will be any actually.

I completely agree with you regarding Gerrard- if you look at our goal actually you can see how much space he gets in the run up to the goal! And of course the chance for Torres. He just wasn't the usual all action midfielder, but how many times do we see him do that against big teams? Normally against Chelsea he plays like that actually.

Next game they're going to be sitting back a bit more. Tailor made for Yossi in my opinion, maybe even Babel to feature. Torres will get chances- he's scored a lot of goals against these lot in the last couple of seasons and could have had a hat trick yesterday.

I think when the match was too open (after our goal) it was very even- Torres was getting chances, Kuyt had that chance (remember Chelsea making mistakes as big as Aurelio's giveaways as well). Only difference is that although none of us took the chances (Drogba's misses, Kalou had the opportunity for a one on one as well remember) the set pieces swung the game completely in their favour. We had to go for it a bit more seeing as we were at home, and that left them easily out on top- they added to their 2 and around that time they were well on top with our lot dejected.

I do think it could have worked in completely the other way- Torres and Kuyt score 2 more (easily could have) and I do think it would have been us on top and in control.

Just the way football and the match dynamics work.

[royhendo]

But that's been one aspect of our play that's largely set us aside though Baz. Go a goal behind, but refuse to bend and work work work our way back into it. Last night there was almost an acceptance of our fate and you got flashbacks to the 4-1 game a few years ago. You found yourself worrying that it was going to be worse.

[BazC]

But that's been one aspect of our play that's largely set us aside though Baz. Go a goal behind, but refuse to bend and work work work our way back into it. Last night there was almost an acceptance of our fate and you got flashbacks to the 4-1 game a few years ago. You found yourself worrying that it was going to be worse.

It did look a bit disjointed... but I think it was like that from the very start- even when we were at 1-0 you have Aurelio giving the ball away and gifting them chances... by the same token they were gifting us chances- Lampard giving Torres a one on one that time... there were a few instances of them and us giving chances away. The 2 goals they scored left us even more rattled and Chelsea were able to sit back a bit mor and reorganise, whereas we still had to attack. At that point our game was still open, but Chelsea's became much tighter- we stopped creating chances and they go on to get the 3rd.

The fact that it was an European tie and we were at home in the first leg probably meant the psychological state of the players was completely different to when we normally go a goal down... maybe the acceptance even came because they just wanted it to be over- realised it was a bad day and we weren't prepared for a Chelsea side who themselves were so good- and just wanted to take an 'achievable' target to chase in the 2nd leg. That was at 2-1, but when they scored the 3rd maybe there was that sense of utter dejection that we were out of it.

When you hear interviews about Istanbul at half time, the players' mentalities were definitely not ones that were about fighting to overturn a match but actually a mentality that was of severe dejection and 'playing for pride'. Maybe that's what kicked in at the end yesterday- it's probably a natural feeling to have. You're on a high after playing so well lately but get absolutely battered. It's a shock. Luckily for us though, we have a few days and a game in between to set things back on track. In Istanbul Rafa only had 15 minutes to change the mentality around. 

[fudge]

You've not been watching our corners then?

Yeah in all honesty it was fucking depressing watching just how accurate Lumpards corners were

[royhendo]

Ah well, might as well think about something more palatable eh? It's a rollercoaster, just like Ronan said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/apr/09/barcelona-champions-league-bayern-munich

Barcelona's beauty lies in their bite

After Barcelona's destruction of Bayern Munich it is legitimate to ask if this is the most attractive side of the modern age

---

Uli Hoeness, Bayern Munich's general manager, sat in the away dugout next to Jurgen Klinsmann with an expression that summed up his team's ritual humiliation pretty well. His red face somehow managed to be both round and very, very long all at the same time. "We were rabbits caught in front of a snake," he lamented. Hoeness, like everybody else in Camp Nou, knew that the rabbits only lost 4-0 because the snake decided it may as well save some venom for its next victim.

It was all too much for Udo Lattek, the former Bayern coach who led the Germans to their first ever European Cup triumph. Karl-Heinz Rumenigge confided that he saw Lattek weeping after the game. "I don't know if it was for sadness, anger, or pain," he mused.

It is not unreasonable to suggest this Barcelona team is extraordinary enough to make grown men cry for joy. The emotions sweeping the vast majority of observers were all about elation, over-excitement and possibility. In the morning's papers, El Mundo Deportivo captured the mood by stating that football "owes" Barça its third European title. Fancy arguing? Take it up with Messrs Messi, Eto'o and Henry, who incidentally have more goals between them this season than any other squad in its entirety from any major European league.

It is hard to make a case for a more deserving winner of this Champions League edition. In terms of attacking spirit, they wipe the floor with everyone else. Barcelona's 85 La Liga goals (so far) looks even more astonishing with a little perspective. Consider the ratios elsewhere:

Barcelona: 85 goals from 29 games (2.93)
Internazionale: 55 goals from 30 games (1.83)
Man United: 52 goals from 30 games (1.73)
Lyon: 41 goals from 30 games (1.37)
Wolfsburg: 58 goals from 26 games (2.23)
Porto: 44 goals from 23 games (1.91)

Let's not get too tied up in numbers, though. To appreciate Barcelona in terms of statistics is to miss the point. Better to stop counting, and to sit back and feast your eyes. They play so beautifully, the Camp Nou socios are beginning to debate whether this is the most attractive side of the modern age.

Barcelona have evolved from the 2006 Champions League vintage, most visibly in midfield, where the line-up of Deco, Edmilson and the crunching abberation that was Mark van Bommel could not so easily weave the kind of passing patterns created by Xavi and Andres Iniesta, with Yaya Toure in control just behind.

Further forward, Ronaldinho at his pomp arguably gave Barça more fantasy, and a greater sense of the spectacular and unexpected, and the intelligence of Henrik Larsson was a pleasure to watch. But there is more cut and thrust about today's front three, whose collective speed of thought and movement is absolutely devastating. They compliment each other brilliantly. Samuel Eto'o is the link, and it would be fascinating to know if he had a preference for playing alongside Ronaldinho and Ludovic Giuly and in front of Deco (as of the 2006 final) or in tandem with Leo Messi and Thierry Henry with the benefit of Xavi and Iniesta's string pulling (as of the snake-and-rabbit show against Bayern). The one thing he must be absolutely sure of is immense relief he did not follow Ronaldinho and Deco out the door last summer, as was on the cards.

Sorry to go back to the numbers briefly, but it is worth pointing out that Pep Guardiola's goal addicts have a vastly superior Champions League record to the class of 2006. Frank Rijkaard's team had notched up 19 by this stage, halfway through the quarter-finals. Messi and company are already on 28.

The little Argentinian spoke for all of them when he tried to play down the plaudits until there are medals to back them up. "I think from one to 11, each of our players put in an excellent performance against Bayern. But to be considered the best team in Europe, it's not about playing like this, it is about winning the Champions League and regaining the Spanish title. That's something we can only achieve by taking things calmly and a game at a time."

The only nag for Barcelona is the fact they might feel they are in the 'wrong' side of the draw. They would obviously feel confident in a pure footballing contest, as they would expect from a semi-final against any of the contestants from the other branch to the final - Manchester United, Porto, Villarreal or Arsenal - but the power play of Chelsea, or Liverpool if they were to achieve a miraculous turnaround, is not their favourite flavour of ice cream.

Chelsea, incidentally, might think they have done the hard part with that thrilling win at Anfield but they ain't seen nothing yet. The prettiest snake on this earth, with razor sharp fangs it relishes using, lies in wait.

[BazC]

Cheers for that Roy. It's a good read.

I regret not watching them more actually- from what I have seen of them this season they do look better than the Barca side with Ronaldinho on top of his game. I watched Barca a lot back then, and also caught Messi's debut. Straight away you could tell he was brilliant. Right now, he's better than Ronaldinho was in my opinion, and Henry on the left instead of Ronaldinho gives them a more direct player who'll also get goals. That incisiveness the article talks about comes from all these players that have come in since Ronaldinho and Deco went- Iniesta, Henry and Toure have improved the team, but then you've also got Alves.

It's a team whose attacking football is just too relentless. I'd like to see how a team like Liverpool or Chelsea copes with it because we always focus on stopping the other team playing and targeting weaknesses (rather than teams like the Mancs or Arsenal, who I think are more inclined to play their football how they always do with little by way of 'flexing' to the opponent).

As Messi says though- this all means nothing if they don't win the trophies to back it up. Although at the moment, Barca winning another trophy probably seems about the safest bet in football right now!

[royhendo]

I'm encoding the Bayern game for your viewing pleasure as I write mate. Fingers crossed it'll go up next week. I deleted our game from the SKY+ in disgust... apologies.

[Degs]

I'm encoding the Bayern game for your viewing pleasure as I write mate. Fingers crossed it'll go up next week. I deleted our game from the SKY+ in disgust... apologies.

Watch the runs of Samuel Eto'o, diagnally straight accross the opposition's back line.

Amazing.  The wavelength them 3 are on is unreal.

[BazC]

I'm encoding the Bayern game for your viewing pleasure as I write mate. Fingers crossed it'll go up next week. I deleted our game from the SKY+ in disgust... apologies.

Nice one. I was going to catch our game again on LFC Tv. Normally I don't even watch MOTD when we lose but Wednesday just seems different. I want to watch it again- think it was on last night but missed it. Will definitely watch the Barca/Bayern match, so thanks for that!

Watch the runs of Samuel Eto'o, diagnally straight accross the opposition's back line.

Amazing.  The wavelength them 3 are on is unreal.

Messi and Eto'o have been playing on the same team for a few years now, but Henry's only this season been a regular I think? Does that 'wavelength' develop or is it just something that's either there or not? Looking at Torres and Gerrard (they must share a brain they're that in tune with each other) at times last season and you'd have thought they'd been playing together for years... compare it to Torres and Keane, or even Torres and Villa (from what I've seen of them) and it's nothing like what he and Gerrard have.

I was watching a programme about the Liverpool team in the 80s, and Barnes was saying that it was a group of players who'd been together and developed alongside each other that was a big reason for success. Individually they were still very good players, but the fact that they played together for a number of years meant that as a team they were immense. And although I wasn't around then, from what I have seen of that team, compared to any other of the 'great' team performances over the years (AC Milan Madrid in the European Cup, Brazil Italy in the World Cup final), it's that Liverpool team that, to me, looks like it could still be great in today's game- they were that in tune with each other.

Had me thinking of Torres, Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Agger, Skrtel and Reina... just one more young attacking player who can slot in for the next few years and we can be a top, top side. You look at that set of players and there's quality- their skills are top class, they're intelligent footballers and there's a few relationships in there that seem to have that fundamental understanding... it's a great foundation to build a team around.

[Degs]

Messi and Eto'o have been playing on the same team for a few years now, but Henry's only this season been a regular I think? Does that 'wavelength' develop or is it just something that's either there or not? Looking at Torres and Gerrard (they must share a brain they're that in tune with each other) at times last season and you'd have thought they'd been playing together for years... compare it to Torres and Keane, or even Torres and Villa (from what I've seen of them) and it's nothing like what he and Gerrard have.

In 06-07 and 07-08 Etoo only played 18 league games each season, and Messi has been off and on with injuries/rotation for a while but I think their newfound telepathy comes from this and the total reshaping of the team.

Look at the 06 Champions league winning team



And the team they have now is completely different.

The article above touches on it with the industrious midfield trio they have now, but combined with sharp passing.

I still think though that the winner of our match will go on to win the trophy.

[BazC]

In 06-07 and 07-08 Etoo only played 18 league games each season, and Messi has been off and on with injuries/rotation for a while but I think their newfound telepathy comes from this and the total reshaping of the team.

Look at the 06 Champions league winning team



And the team they have now is completely different.

The article above touches on it with the industrious midfield trio they have now, but combined with sharp passing.

I still think though that the winner of our match will go on to win the trophy.

It is amazing how much that team has changed actually- 2 years from that double they had the team to challenge for the double again. And that too by bolstering the squad with players from their academy! Messi and Iniesta has definitely improved that side. In Toure and Keita they've got solid athletes in midfield who support the attackers in front.

I'm not sure about the winner of our quarter beating Barca... it's definitely something that's going to be interesting to watch- to see how our (or Chelsea's) midfield/defence copes with that attacking line up, but I'm not so sure how successfully one could stop that Barca team's attacking football. I did watch a La Liga match the other week, and Barca's opposition seemed to totally nullify Messi- they just shepharded him out the game... and they did quite well actually as Barca looked surprisingly unbalanced (I don't know if Barca lost but I think it was at least a point for the other team). I think that'd be the key- stopping Messi running at our defenders and keeping it tight. With players like Mascherano or Essien and Mikel, it'll definitely be a tough test for Messi and Barca.

Of course, people in the pub on Wednesday were saying that Bayern could get a good result (and a few off here as well if I remember correctly), and Barca just blew that out of the water in 45 minutes... I'm just hoping that it's us they have to face in a few weeks rather than Chelsea for now 

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

I was watching a programme about the Liverpool team in the 80s, and Barnes was saying that it was a group of players who'd been together and developed alongside each other that was a big reason for success. Individually they were still very good players, but the fact that they played together for a number of years meant that as a team they were immense. And although I wasn't around then, from what I have seen of that team, compared to any other of the 'great' team performances over the years (AC Milan Madrid in the European Cup, Brazil Italy in the World Cup final), it's that Liverpool team that, to me, looks like it could still be great in today's game- they were that in tune with each other.

The 87-88 team in particular just clicked. First game that year down at Highbury and loads of us went down. If you can find the goals, Digger in particular and Beardsley combined brilliantly to set up Aldo. That side just worked, instantly.

Some partnerships have to be worked on. Beardsley, Barnes and Aldridge didn't. Barnes and Aldridge in particular were fantastic together. I reckon John Barnes set-up over 50% of Aldo's goals that year, it was ridiculous how good he was

[BazC]

The 87-88 team in particular just clicked. First game that year down at Highbury and loads of us went down. If you can find the goals, Digger in particular and Beardsley combined brilliantly to set up Aldo. That side just worked, instantly.

Some partnerships have to be worked on. Beardsley, Barnes and Aldridge didn't. Barnes and Aldridge in particular were fantastic together. I reckon John Barnes set-up over 50% of Aldo's goals that year, it was ridiculous how good he was

I remember Barnes saying they knew from their very first training session that it would work. It was him and Beardsley I think who joined in the same season? They both said the club made them feel very welcome and very comfortable.

From what I've seen of Barnes... I wish we had a player like him today!

Perhaps it's not something we can explain by stats and observation alone (in terms of predicting who will form a good partnership with who)- so there's an element of luck involved somewhere... I mean you look at Gerrard under Rafa and the strikers he's had to work with- Baros, Cisse, Bellamy, Crouch and Kuyt being the main ones over the years... but with Torres it's something different. And you could see Gerrard trying so hard with these players to make it work- but with Torres it didn't even look like he tried. It just happened.

That move against Fulham- when they 1-2 it with headers and Gerrard slips Torres through on a one on one (carbon copy of Newcastle last season) just portrays what the have perfectly. That assist for Gerrard when we were playing Everton when Torres just flicks it behind him.... there's loads more too. If we just get one more player in on that it'll be complete. Our wide players currently are a good solid bunch, but none of them are on that 'telepathic' level with Gerrard and Torres. That's what we need to hope for in this summer I think.

[royhendo]

I only ever saw the late 80s side once in the flesh, at George McGeachie's testimonial in 1987 (Dundee FC). We won 4-0, with two from Barnes, one from Houghton on his debut, and one from Whelan. It could have been a cricket score - what a team.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

I only ever saw the late 80s side once in the flesh, at George McGeachie's testimonial in 1987 (Dundee FC). We won 4-0, with two from Barnes, one from Houghton on his debut, and one from Whelan. It could have been a cricket score - what a team.

Went home and away every year throughout the 80's, so seen my share of players!

I used to get on The Kop and instead of getting behind the goal, used to get in line with the touchline on the Kemlyn Road side of The Kop when we had Digger, as watching Barnes attack down there in the second half was something I had never seen as a Liverpool supporter. Still haven't.

Had magic in his boots he did, never be another like him. He could literally do everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmAo0uiarvA

[kaz1983]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmAo0uiarvA

What the fuck is this guy on about ... wanker.

'Back in about 1989 Maradona was clamouring for Barnes to join him and Careca at Napoli. We'll never know why Barnes never followed through with what would have been a logical progression for a player of his technical finesse. Another one of those 'what ifs' of world football..'

[BazC]

What a player. He would definitely by right at the top of the game today. Getting past players by quick footed change of direction, left and right foot rockets, crosses that are so good you'd almost forgive the striker for just standing there and admiring them rather than attacking them and his confidence when up against players to take them on... brilliant winger. Probably my favourite 'legend' of the club as well because he's always been in the old Liverpool games I've seen and always catched my eye (that Nottingham Forest 5-0 game... wow).