Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 922049 times)

Offline redmark

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13720 on: December 31, 2010, 07:06:12 pm »
O Shea was loaned out as was Brown I think. It's more a case they really haven't produced any really class youngster's in the last ten years. Flecther would be the last to step up and he didn't go out on loan.
O'Shea? Hmmm, not sure that doesn't prove my point for me :). Brown was never loaned out - which fits with Ferguson's (and many pundits) expectations of him at the time being a rising star.

Rafa did play the youths that were at the club when he came. Mellor and Warnock come to mind. I think it was a case of not really having the players to do it with.

Yes, he did it when he arrived, but that's indicative of the problem. Following that, we signed some real journeymen (who were never going to get more than a couple of games a season anyway) rather than seeing if the youngsters could handle it. False economy I think, especially as it was a drain on already meagre finances.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13721 on: December 31, 2010, 09:06:29 pm »
Ours is already like this in that there is a school on site and the lads are given a proper education. The only difference is they don't live on site but they really don't need to as most of the lads will be local at ages 10-15.  Liverpool is a tiny city geographically and you'll never be more than 1 hour away from the Academy. After all even Xavi didn't move into the Barca digs he just got a lift everyday.

True that Degs, but I was thinking more of the advantages of bringing kids from anywhere to stay as boarders. It allows for some degree of subverting the current restrictions on bringing players in only when they're in their mid to late teens. Which is possibly a bit too late for some of them if you want to inculcate a whole philosophy which goes from under-8s all the way to the first team.

Quote
The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.

In fairness, I think some attempt was made to do this under Rafa wasn't it? We had/have a decent relationship with Hull, Forest and Swansea with regards to loaning out players and weren't attempts made to link up with some of the smaller Spanish clubs to provide some foreign experience? The Mancs have something of an advantage in that they've got decent relationships with managers and chairman at a couple of clubs - Mr.Ferguson was reflecting on his good relationship with Wigan when discussing recalling the lad they've got out on loan there today.

You're right about the big jump from youth to senior level - though wasn't Borell's critique that we were producing teams but not individuals recently? It's one of the things that he who shall not be named goes on about for a bit in his section on youth coaching - it's not about winning as a team in youth football (nice though that is) but to develop the individuals as they progress through the ranks.

Very much agree with you about ensuring young players have an opportunity on the big stage without being set up to fail. Mind, the treatment of some of our younger players has been pretty shocking by elements of our fan base in the recent past, and if the team isn't playing well it seems like most managers won't throw young talents into the team in case it sets them up to fail. (Thinking of what Fowler said about Souness' reluctance to play him at times amongst others).

Appreciate you taking time to put out your thoughts Degs. I'm struggling to see how one reinvents the wheel at the moment, so it's good to get the perspectives offered by posters like yourself.

Have a good new year guys.
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13722 on: December 31, 2010, 09:41:08 pm »
True that Degs, but I was thinking more of the advantages of bringing kids from anywhere to stay as boarders. It allows for some degree of subverting the current restrictions on bringing players in only when they're in their mid to late teens. Which is possibly a bit too late for some of them if you want to inculcate a whole philosophy which goes from under-8s all the way to the first team.

Well we are only allowed to sign players within 1 hours drive of the club to begin with, our "catchment area".
If we find players outside that we can "persuade" the family to move to Merseyside and put them up near the club (this doesn't really happen though).

As for international transfers they're going to be near enough banned soon by FIFA.

Quote
In fairness, I think some attempt was made to do this under Rafa wasn't it? We had/have a decent relationship with Hull, Forest and Swansea with regards to loaning out players and weren't attempts made to link up with some of the smaller Spanish clubs to provide some foreign experience? The Mancs have something of an advantage in that they've got decent relationships with managers and chairman at a couple of clubs - Mr.Ferguson was reflecting on his good relationship with Wigan when discussing recalling the lad they've got out on loan there today.

You're right about the big jump from youth to senior level - though wasn't Borell's critique that we were producing teams but not individuals recently? It's one of the things that he who shall not be named goes on about for a bit in his section on youth coaching - it's not about winning as a team in youth football (nice though that is) but to develop the individuals as they progress through the ranks.

Very much agree with you about ensuring young players have an opportunity on the big stage without being set up to fail. Mind, the treatment of some of our younger players has been pretty shocking by elements of our fan base in the recent past, and if the team isn't playing well it seems like most managers won't throw young talents into the team in case it sets them up to fail. (Thinking of what Fowler said about Souness' reluctance to play him at times amongst others).

Appreciate you taking time to put out your thoughts Degs. I'm struggling to see how one reinvents the wheel at the moment, so it's good to get the perspectives offered by posters like yourself.

Have a good new year guys.

Rafa was never interested in that cup winning side because it was run by Heighway and the 2 were enemies with Rafa eventually getting Heighway sacked the reason being the "Good sides not good players" argument while Heighway thought winning 2 successive Youth Cups was as clear a point as any he was doing his job right.

If we are getting rid of players though I'd love for us to do what Real Madrid do and insert buy-back clauses in the agreements.  It'd mean we could buy back talents like Adam Hammill for dirt cheap and even if he wasn't going to make the grade here we could sell him on again for a bigger fee than we first got.

Offline AJ4Seven

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13723 on: January 4, 2011, 04:44:21 pm »

As for international transfers they're going to be near enough banned soon by FIFA.

Rafa was never interested in that cup winning side because it was run by Heighway and the 2 were enemies with Rafa eventually getting Heighway sacked the reason being the "Good sides not good players" argument while Heighway thought winning 2 successive Youth Cups was as clear a point as any he was doing his job right.


Is the bolded the way we signed Suso(& Arsenal signed Fabregas)?

As for the youth teams, how many players made it in the Premiership? I can only think of Warnock & Guthrie(maybe Stephen Wright). I would have thought Hobbs & Hamill will get there eventually , but are there anymore?

Offline El Rey, por favor

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13724 on: January 5, 2011, 04:25:11 pm »
It's not just us either, I'm not even going to tell you how they find out how tall a kid is going to grow.
The odd small lad can fit through if he scores 10 a match (think Michael Owen) but he has all the odds against him.

Ours is already like this in that there is a school on site and the lads are given a proper education. The only difference is they don't live on site but they really don't need to as most of the lads will be local at ages 10-15.  Liverpool is a tiny city geographically and you'll never be more than 1 hour away from the Academy. After all even Xavi didn't move into the Barca digs he just got a lift everyday.

The problem comes in the leap from Youth Team (after all we won the cup 2 seasons in succession only a few years ago) to First Team and the difference in Spain is that you can go in the Barca B team, at Watford you get thrown in at Championship level and you're not expected to be Pele when you come on. Everton can afford to blood youngsters because their expectations for the season don't exist, they live for 2 games then go into hibernation for the other 36.

The Mancs have probably got the best set up now in that their young upcoming players are starting to find their feet in the Premiership - Welbeck has 5 goals this season while Tom Cleverley is on his 3rd loan spell on the bounce and has scored 3 for Wigan and has been their best player, while Diouf has started nearly every game for Blackburn.

It seems the Mancs progression goes Championship Loan -> Premiership Loan.
It's something we should be looking to copy with the likes of Martin Kelly.



It's true, i'm 20 (6ft 2), when I was 15 i was released from man city academy (after 8 years) because i was only 5ft 4 and too small to play CM, what 5 years does to your height, eh?
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13725 on: January 5, 2011, 04:39:22 pm »
It's true, i'm 20 (6ft 2), when I was 15 i was released from man city academy (after 8 years) because i was only 5ft 4 and too small to play CM, what 5 years does to your height, eh?

Can you play left back and how clean are your boots?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13726 on: January 7, 2011, 01:15:42 pm »
Well we are only allowed to sign players within 1 hours drive of the club to begin with, our "catchment area".
If we find players outside that we can "persuade" the family to move to Merseyside and put them up near the club (this doesn't really happen though).

Yeah, this was the aspect I was thinking of. Obviously you get clubs offering houses and jobs to family to get young lads to move to be in their academies, but to my mind that just seems wrong. If a kid goes to a boarding school which is also a football academy, would that contravene the rules?

Quote
As for international transfers they're going to be near enough banned soon by FIFA.

It seems like they're really focusing on all those young lads who are being brought from eg Africa into Europe who have no real prospect of ever making it rather than the top talent being skimmed off? Don't think it would be a bad idea to stop the movement of under-18s totally but it would lead to all kinds of weird situations - eg. North Wales would be a different country [edit: yeah I know, but you know what I mean], Benelux would have all kinds of odd problems given how common cross-border movement is.

Quote
Rafa was never interested in that cup winning side because it was run by Heighway and the 2 were enemies with Rafa eventually getting Heighway sacked the reason being the "Good sides not good players" argument while Heighway thought winning 2 successive Youth Cups was as clear a point as any he was doing his job right.

Aye, it's a tough one. Though the Ajax model would suggest that if you produce the good players in the same environment, then the good team will follow as a result at youth levels. So much of the politics of the club has been so hazy, it's hard to know what to think though I do have a lot of sympathy with Heighway's position. But there does seem to have been a long fallow period in the production line and it would be interesting to have some informed views on why that was. I know some parents have had criticisms of the way our youth system was set-up in comparison to other clubs (especially Everton, but Bolton apparantly has a decent set-up in the view of some parents).

Quote
If we are getting rid of players though I'd love for us to do what Real Madrid do and insert buy-back clauses in the agreements.  It'd mean we could buy back talents like Adam Hammill for dirt cheap and even if he wasn't going to make the grade here we could sell him on again for a bigger fee than we first got.

Not sure how that would work given that at a certain level players can have their contracts terminated if they haven't played sufficient games - FIFA put that rule in to prevent clubs building up huge squads and hoarding the talent. I'd just be keen on us building good and long-standing relationships with other clubs and having options on the products of their youth systems in return for allowing loans without cost and even preferential treatment in terms of transfer fees. Tomkins' made a good point in Dynasty about how well we identified talent at other clubs under Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish. You mention the role of Porto to other English clubs, and I think that something similar would be very possible within England itself. Not feeder clubs, but solid quid pro quo relationships which allow us to pull in talent easier from across the UK.

----

Slightly tangential, but does anyone know any good reads on Dario Gradi's youth set-up when he was at Crewe?
« Last Edit: January 7, 2011, 01:25:56 pm by Zeb »
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Offline The China Fox

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13727 on: January 8, 2011, 08:52:14 am »

Not sure how that would work given that at a certain level players can have their contracts terminated if they haven't played sufficient games - FIFA put that rule in to prevent clubs building up huge squads and hoarding the talent. I'd just be keen on us building good and long-standing relationships with other clubs and having options on the products of their youth systems in return for allowing loans without cost and even preferential treatment in terms of transfer fees. Tomkins' made a good point in Dynasty about how well we identified talent at other clubs under Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish. You mention the role of Porto to other English clubs, and I think that something similar would be very possible within England itself. Not feeder clubs, but solid quid pro quo relationships which allow us to pull in talent easier from across the UK.


Hopefully we are on our way to improving this side of things, with the recent sacking of the Head Scout (related as it may be to Comolli) indicative that they are at least looking into the current system and where it's failing. Certainly in comparison to before it's already looking promising with the capture of Stirling, Shelvey et al, although I guess we'll have to see if they are integrated into the first team setup before proclaiming success.

Slightly tangential, but does anyone know any good reads on Dario Gradi's youth set-up when he was at Crewe?

Would love to see this as well. He's done a superb job there over the years
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Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13728 on: January 15, 2011, 10:01:16 pm »
He's only been at Bilbao for 3 years, and they would snap your hand off for about 10 million.

When I see him he's the player Lucas should be, every pass is forward, every time he gets the ball he runs, he's big, he's strong, he'd be perfect and he's only 20.

But for me we need to sort out the first 11 before we go strengthening the squad.  We still need a right winger, a centre forward, and a right back that can challenge Arbeloa.

But if we were looking out for a centre mid I'd want us to seriously look at Martinez, a true box to box player.
And while I hate 2 second YouTube videos (they can make anybody look world class) here's one of the moments it slapped me accross the face how good he is.

(He's the number 24 in the middle)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/iI-v9Vvb9A8&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/iI-v9Vvb9A8&amp;hl=en&amp;fs=1</a>

And again tonight I say  SIGN JAVI MARTINEZ

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13729 on: January 15, 2011, 11:17:44 pm »
And again tonight I say  SIGN JAVI MARTINEZ
Ever Banega would suit us more Degs.
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13730 on: January 15, 2011, 11:28:33 pm »
Ever Banega would suit us more Degs.
No thanks he's a bit loopy off the pitch, he cost Valencia a fortune so would be difficult to buy now (although Martinez now sounds impossible to get).
The main thing though is that Martinez is well better but I've been discussing him in La Liga thread and he sounds impossible to get.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13731 on: January 16, 2011, 12:22:44 am »
No thanks he's a bit loopy off the pitch, he cost Valencia a fortune so would be difficult to buy now (although Martinez now sounds impossible to get).
The main thing though is that Martinez is well better but I've been discussing him in La Liga thread and he sounds impossible to get.
Sorry how would Merinez be better? We are not looking for that but need a player like Ever
Why are you looking past this season?

Offline Degs

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13732 on: January 16, 2011, 12:35:28 am »
Sorry how would Merinez be better? We are not looking for that but need a player like Ever
Martinez is better suited to the English league he's taller, stronger, quicker and a better passer of the ball. Plus he has a mean header for when we have to defend set pieces or playing against a Stoke.  In fact he scored a header tonight.

Banega is good in the tackle but, when he's not wanking on webcams, he's alot like Masch in that he's defensive only and offers little to nothing going forwards.

With no deep playmaker in the team anymore the likes of Aquilani, Lucas and Merieles have tried to fill the box to box role but none of them have had the pace and power that Martinez has, Banega would just be a Masch replacement which shouldn't be priority number 1 at the moment.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13733 on: January 16, 2011, 01:50:23 am »
Martinez is better suited to the English league he's taller, stronger, quicker and a better passer of the ball. Plus he has a mean header for when we have to defend set pieces or playing against a Stoke.  In fact he scored a header tonight.

Banega is good in the tackle but, when he's not wanking on webcams, he's alot like Masch in that he's defensive only and offers little to nothing going forwards.

With no deep playmaker in the team anymore the likes of Aquilani, Lucas and Meireles have tried to fill the box to box role but none of them have had the pace and power that Martinez has, Banega would just be a Masch replacement which shouldn't be priority number 1 at the moment.
Bananga would be nothing like Masch, christ Degs the chap would play on the tip of the tirngle rather then the rear.
Why are you looking past this season?

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13734 on: January 16, 2011, 01:50:58 am »
Martinez is better suited to the English league he's taller, stronger, quicker and a better passer of the ball. Plus he has a mean header for when we have to defend set pieces or playing against a Stoke.  In fact he scored a header tonight.

Banega is good in the tackle but, when he's not wanking on webcams, he's alot like Masch in that he's defensive only and offers little to nothing going forwards.

With no deep playmaker in the team anymore the likes of Aquilani, Lucas and Meireles have tried to fill the box to box role but none of them have had the pace and power that Martinez has, Banega would just be a Masch replacement which shouldn't be priority number 1 at the moment.
Totally disagree with that. Banega is nothing like Masch, he's more like a Veron, though more aggressive. Also, much better passer than Martinez, and cheaper, oh, and better.
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Offline AnotherSpanishfan

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13735 on: January 16, 2011, 03:17:50 am »
Totally disagree with that. Banega is nothing like Masch, he's more like a Veron, though more aggressive. Also, much better passer than Martinez, and cheaper, oh, and better.

There's some character issues that come with Banega though so I would think that whoever wants to buy him will take into account when it comes to investing money on him and trusting him with a major role. 

Btw Mr Dilkington and Roy, do you guys take suggestions when it comes to writing well researched pieces or just go with what catches your imagination at the time?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:19:30 am by AnotherSpanishfan »

Offline Mr Dilkington

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13736 on: January 16, 2011, 03:36:52 am »
There's some character issues that come with Banega though so I would think that whoever wants to buy him will take into account when it comes to investing money on him and trusting him with a major role. 

Btw Mr Dilkington and Roy, do you guys take suggestions when it comes to writing well researched pieces or just go with what catches your imagination at the time?
You'd have to ask Roy for a definitive answer, it's his website afterall. Did you have something in mind?
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Offline AnotherSpanishfan

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13737 on: January 16, 2011, 04:44:11 am »
You'd have to ask Roy for a definitive answer, it's his website afterall. Did you have something in mind?

Well, i wasn't going on about the website exactly, just a regular Rawk OP (it may or may not be apt for his website), just that you guys really seem to be interested in studying and analyzing tactics, etc... and are also good writers and I don't fancy myself much of a writer and I'm nowhere close to you two in terms of tactical knowledge or philosophy (beyond my biased belief that Barcelona are football perfection and Pep pisses cologne). 

Jokes aside though (sort of), I've had a notion in mind for some time that came from: reading poster's comments on forums, listening to PL pundits on television and reading pro's and former pro's quotes of the English game on the papers where all yearn for: proper wingers who can beat a man and whip in cross after cross. And I'm immediately overwhelmed by a feeling of unfamiliarity and a lack of understanding.  Usually these calls are the result of some team's (let's call it Liverpool in this case) struggles to break a team down, which i think it's the root of my bemusement. 

I can understand the crossing of the ball as an alternative tool or possibility (heh) or a viable option in certain situations, such as a quick counter-attack where the opposition defenders are disordered and you pass the ball wide to a player who crosses the ball to a nearly unmarked player in the far post for a free header and a goal, etc but as a bread-and-butter strategy? specially when you're trying to break down a team in the Premiership it seems like a big waste of time for the most part.  I say this because i think that presently most PL teams seem to have big, strong defenders who are good in the air and have a fairly decent positional sense.

And on the other hand, it seems like these days the classic winger with chalk on his boots, etc who would whip these crosses time and time again seems like a species in danger of extinction.  Anyway, there is a lot more I could write and expand upon but like i said previously i don't fancy myself a writer just might want other people's thoughts on some of my notions if you agree/disagree that:

- basing your tactics around crossing the ball from wide areas is mostly a waste of time (unless you have a beast in the middle and a fantastic crosser: im thinking Kanoute/Navas works rather well but thats in La Liga)

- modern wingers are more like inside forwards and this is the way to go (Messi, Ronaldo, Robben, Nasri, Malouda etc,etc)and you leave the wide areas for the attacking fullback, who can whip in a cross if necessary.

- Adam Johnson should stay on the right and cut inside to his stronger foot where he can shoot and score goals instead of playing on his "natural" left side where he can get bored of crossing the ball (I say this because I read an article a couple of months ago where a former city player talked about and praised Johnson after he had a good game but he called for him to be played more on the left so he could "put in some crosses" (Adebayor wasn't playing at the time and Dzeko wasn't even being considered so i imagine these crosses were for Tevez and Silva...)


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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13738 on: January 17, 2011, 10:37:19 am »
I'll ping you a pm ASF mate. I kind of agreed with the mods that this bad boy was closed, but they reopened it cos it meant we could quote good posts elsewhere. I'll steer clear of this un meself.

Offline JP-65

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13739 on: January 29, 2011, 02:00:21 pm »
Great article!

http://t.co/4WQYalG

Pundits like Andy Gray? Why the players couldn't care less
That many football pundits don't even try to scratch beneath the surface, despite knowing what it takes to win a match at this level, is deeply annoying
 
The Guardian,    Saturday 29 January 2011

Anyone can navigate a giant iPad, sliding faces of famous players around with their pinkie while throwing out rubbish phrases. Photograph: Rex Features
What if Sky Sports offered me Andy Gray's job? Not a chance. Let me tell you something, football pundits are universally despised by players and not just because at some point in the past they would have been on the receiving end of criticism themselves.

It doesn't matter what you've done in the game, where you've played, what you might have won or how much money you earned – pundits are held in the same regard by players as female assistant referees once were at Sky.

And while on that subject, prepare to be disappointed. While I found the whole episode with Gray and Richard Keys at Molineux cringeworthy, inside the world of football nobody is particularly bothered. Don't interpret that as evidence that players are condoning Gray and Keys for their behaviour. It's more a case that most of my team-mates would have no interest in listening to anything pundits say in the first place.

There's no obvious reason why those sat on the sofa are thought of in such low terms, but it may have something to do with a sense that they are going against the inner sanctum that we pretend we are a part of. Perhaps, subconsciously, it tugs at those still playing, who realise the ex-players know things about them that they probably wish they didn't.

Their new position of influence over millions of people is a little uncomfortable for some, I'm sure, and their failure to go the extra mile when analysing matches can also grate.

Switch to our world and the level of detail that goes into games still, to this day, amazes me. Every player has his own script, what to do, when to do it, information on the player he's up against, including weight, height, age, strengths, weaknesses, even what that opponent is likely to do when the ball comes to him in certain situations. We memorise every single set piece, where we have to stand, run and end up. We even memorise this for the other players so we know where everyone else will be at any given time.

You know that pass when you say to yourself: "How did he spot that?" Often he didn't need to; he knew the player would be there because, the night before in the hotel, he read about the runs he would be making.

It's exactly the same pass after which sometimes you might find yourself saying: "Who was that to?" The receiving player either forgot to be there or was taken out of the game by a tactical manoeuvre by his opposite number.

Football at this level is very chess-like, maybe not to those outside of football but certainly to those inside. I sometimes wonder whether it's more enjoyable playing lower down the leagues. After all, who wants to play chess?

With top-level football being so complex, it is very difficult to deconstruct a live game within a couple of minutes of it being over, and because of this the "analysis" is usually reduced to goals and individual performance. But the fact that many pundits don't even try to scratch beneath the surface, despite knowing what it takes to win a match at this level, annoys me. It's the trivialisation of what we do by people that we used to call our own and, more importantly, deprives the viewer of some very interesting tit-bits that would, I feel, add to the entertainment.

Anyone can navigate a giant iPad, sliding faces of famous players around with their pinkie while throwing out phrases like "Third man run" and other such rubbish. What particularly riles me is when you hear a pundit or co-commentator say something like, "I can't understand, Martin, why Drogba is not on the post here. That header would have fallen to him and if I'm Petr Cech I'm saying: 'Go on son, clear that off the line for me!'"

The fact is corners are routinely cleared by a man stationed on the six-yard line, exactly where Chelsea position Didier Drogba. If somebody scores inside that post it is for no other reason than a player having lost his man. That is the mistake. If there is a player on the post he will clear one, possibly two shots off the line a season. If that same player stands on the six-yard line he will probably clear 100 corners away over the course of the season.

The worst thing, though, is when this dross gets into popular culture and my friends start saying stupid things to me like, "We should have a man on the post, our manager doesn't know what he's doing", just because it sounds like the right thing to say. It's such an easy way of analysing that it infuriates me. It's lazy and it takes you, the viewer, for a fool. But, then again, Sky is an expert in creating a villain.

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Offline Sangria

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13740 on: January 29, 2011, 04:17:22 pm »
I don't get it. Is TSF saying that zonal marking isn't shite after all? That can't be right, because the pundits say it's shite, and the pundits know everything.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13741 on: February 2, 2011, 01:23:50 pm »
I've found this thread incredibly informative, along Benitez's tenure this has helped me recognise what he was trying to achieve on the pitch.

Having read Rinus Michels book since, i found this thread a goldmine of thought.

My question is, because of my age (26) - does this philosphy apply for Kenny Dalglish? Is this footballing approach a barometre we can use to help measure where Kenny is upto with his team? i personally doubt this as he uses a wholly different approach, my impression is that his philosophy is somewhat more fluid than Michels approach (ironic i suppose) giving our players when on the ball more freedom to express themselves. I always considered the Michels and Benitez approach interesting in set up, central players circulating the ball without ever leaving their positions, and wide men being the work horses of the team. I expect and have seen more freedom for these players particularly centrally.

Could anybody give a tactical insight into how Dalglish sets his teams up? i for one would much appreciate the analysis.
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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13742 on: February 2, 2011, 01:54:38 pm »
Hi mate.

I think we kind of evolved it into an analytical framework, whereas Michels' book is less integrated and maybe doesn't think of things as a linear progression in that way. He acknowledges that there are different solutions that you can parachute in to apply to different managerial situations. The little case study sections are interesting on that front, aren't they?

I think it's directly applicable to any manager in any siituation though and Kenny's challenges are maintaining that progressive 'pass and move' balance while accomodating players who are limited in the context of that kind of game. He's inherited Carragher - Carragher can pass if there are free men to pass to who he trusts, so if the whole team learns to move and want the ball, and if he encourages in Carragher the right level of confidence and trust in his team mates, then that won't be as much of a problem.

I don't think Kenny's setting the team up the way he's always done it in the past beyond the broad principles of a more attacking, risk taking emphasis and a pass and move possession-based game. It looks like he's going for the 4-3-3- and I hope he sticks to it and trusts the players to solve problems within his framework. The talk and the feedback from the players all point towards that, and we've seen the evidence more and more in the last couple of games.

In that respect it's probably more like Michels than Benitez. Rafa wanted precise adherence to instruction, whereas Michels insisted on hard work and everyone doing their basic tasks, but beyond that foundation, it was up to the players to make things happen and get each other out of their problems. Basic tasks meant never letting your man get away within whatever your zone was at that time (and pressing if he had the ball), making yourself available when your team mates had the ball, playing an aggressive offside trap, that kind of thing. For Kenny I guess we'll learn how intense he is on that side of things.

It's an interesting question though eh? I'm actually just writing on the subject at the moment.

Offline Sangria

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13743 on: February 2, 2011, 02:01:16 pm »
In that respect it's probably more like Michels than Benitez. Rafa wanted precise adherence to instruction, whereas Michels insisted on hard work and everyone doing their basic tasks, but beyond that foundation, it was up to the players to make things happen and get each other out of their problems. Basic tasks meant never letting your man get away within whatever your zone was at that time (and pressing if he had the ball), making yourself available when your team mates had the ball, playing an aggressive offside trap, that kind of thing. For Kenny I guess we'll learn how intense he is on that side of things.

I've been wondering though, whether Benitez's more instructional coaching might be more energy-efficient in the pressing game, as everyone can trust absolutely in their teammates to occupy the spaces where the opponent is likely to turn. I've never played the game to a level where there were coaches, so perhaps everyone does this anyway, and I'm mistaken in the differences between different coaches.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

royhendo

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13744 on: February 2, 2011, 02:54:49 pm »
It'd surely depend on how used to the system the players become dude. Barca make it work pretty well while accomodating fluidity.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13745 on: February 2, 2011, 07:48:16 pm »
...
I think it's directly applicable to any manager in any siituation though and Kenny's challenges are maintaining that progressive 'pass and move' balance while accomodating players who are limited in the context of that kind of game. He's inherited Carragher - Carragher can pass if there are free men to pass to who he trusts, so if the whole team learns to move and want the ball, and if he encourages in Carragher the right level of confidence and trust in his team mates, then that won't be as much of a problem.

I don't think Kenny's setting the team up the way he's always done it in the past beyond the broad principles of a more attacking, risk taking emphasis and a pass and move possession-based game. It looks like he's going for the 4-3-3- and I hope he sticks to it and trusts the players to solve problems within his framework. The talk and the feedback from the players all point towards that, and we've seen the evidence more and more in the last couple of games.

....

Royhendo, did you read this article which is relevant to what you have just posted? It's pretty interesting how the pass-and-move is implemented in training.
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/hansen-reveals-how-kenny-trains
“Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.” - Bill Shankly.

“He [Dalglish] is one of the best players I have ever seen and one of the best players in the history of football." - Franz Beckenbauer.

Offline James Mac

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13746 on: February 18, 2011, 02:17:29 pm »
I got bored today so wrote up my thoughts on football. It's all pretty abstract and a bit all-over-the-place, but I think there are some nice ideas there that could be discussed. Also I haven't spell-checked (am going to a lecture now) but I hope you can all over-look any errors.



In Defense of Direct Football
And How an Italian Novelist Can Help

In football, the aim is pure: shift the ball from one side of the field to the other, with a view to putting the ball into the net. Over the years many systems have been devised as the best way to do that (I won't go into all of them here; I'm sure many of you are familiar with them). But broadly speaking, for me, there are two schools of thought: the pragmatist view (under which I would file the Italian catenaccio system, and typical "English" football), and the Kantians - that is to say, those who do not treat the playing of football as a means to scoring a goal, but as the goal itself. Here I would include most Latin countries (in particular the current Barcelona and Spain side, the samba futebol of Brazil, and some English sides - mainly Arsenal, but also, to an extent, 1980s Liverpool).

Often the battle between the two schools has been one of opposites: football/anti-football; attractive/boring; tidy/physical; indirect/direct. It is the last dualism here that I'm particularly interested in, the notion that "direct" football is unattractive, and the wrong way to play the game.

The English Envy

I attribute the English media's obsessions with the current Barcelona side; the current Arsenal side, with a footballing envy: English football has never been attractive, right from the days of when we stuck with a physical 2-3-5 whilst the rest of the world began to change; through to the likes of Graham Taylor, Sam Allardyce, Roy Hodgson, and Steve Bruce. What hurt the most, presumably, was that all the while Scotland were doing it much, much better. From the days of Queen's Park in the 1870s, who developed a passing game which worked wonders against the English system (a system based on physicality and dribbling); right through to the wave of great Scottish managers in the 1900s: Bill Shankly, Kenny Dalglish, Mr. Alex Ferguson; even newer managers such as Owen Coyle are proving themselves to be more tactically adept than their English counter-parts.

This envy manifests itself in either a begrudging admiration for so-called "pretty" football, or a passionate defense of how the Premier League is the "best in the world". Neither of which, I believe, is the right attitude to have. Instead the English must reshape their concept of direct football: rather than it being a "hoof it up to the big man, see what he can make of it"-direct, direct football should become minimal, sleek; full of lightness: the true end is scoring the goal, and that should come about at any cost - but nowadays, football is not so physical, not so brutish. There is no longer a need for a big man: the big man must adapt his game, become useful with the ball at his feet, and create chances for himself. Importantly, one must reshape one's notion of beauty.

Exactitude

For the ancient Egyptians, exactitude was shown as a feather that served as a weight, on the scales for weighing the souls of the dead. For Italo Calvino, in his 1988 book Six Memos for the Next Millennium, a collection of writings on what he believes the pillars of modern literature should rest on, exactitude is defined as three things:

          (i) a well defined and well calculated plan for the work in question
          (ii) an evocation of clear, incisive, memorable visual images; and
          (iii) a language as precise as possible both in choice of words and in expression of the subtleties of thought and imagination

Where does this tie in with football? Well, the great Bill Shankly once said that “football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple". It's not hard to see where the two philosophies overlap: in the pass-and-move Liverpool side of the late 80s we saw both "clear, incisive, memorable visual images" (that is to say, the passing of the ball, the movement) and a "well defined and well calculated plan for the work in question".

Under Rafael Benitez, we saw glimpses of Calvino's exactitude. Beauty for me was redefined: football became again about scoring goals in the most direct way possible. With Alonso acting as a quarter-back, spraying passes out to the Kuyt and Riera, we became a machine; a sublime force that dominated teams all over Europe. But our football wasn't the most traditionally attractive, there wasn't any neat tricks, and none of the players were particularly skillful (certainly with players like Mascherano, Lucas, Kuyt and Arbeloa, we had a great work-rate - something crucial). But when we got going it was a sight to behold, for me even more so than Barcelona doing their neat triangular passes and dominating possession. We stretched the opposition, pulled them about like waves crashing into a ship, before finally playing the incisive pass; the killer blow. There was simply no need for what my mother would describe as "dilly-dallying" on the ball.

After the disbanding of a prog-rock band (full of virtuosity, real instumental wankery) I played guitar in, I set myself the task of creating pop music using as few notes as possible to achieve the desired outcome. Less is more. And this is true of both pop music, and of football. I dream of a team where the ball is passed around the back-four, slowly advancing to the midfield, until the opposition is dragged so out of position that only 3 passes need to be made until the ball is in the back of the net, simply because of the brilliant off-the-ball work by all players. Whilst this sounds alarmingly like Graham Taylor or Charles Hughes, I can assure you it is not. The long pass may be used occasionally, but a team must look to have the ball on the ground as much as possible. Crucially, all players must have great control and passing technique. As Bill Shankly says:

"Above all, the main aim is that everyone can control a ball and do the basic things in football. It's control and pass, control and pass, all the time. At the back you're looking for someone who can control the ball instantly and give a forward pass. It gives them more space and time to breathe. If you delay, the opposition have all run back behind the ball. It's a very simplified affair, of course, very economical."

Adaptability and fluidity is also key. Whilst I don't think a totaalvoetbal method is entirely the way to go - and there are flaws there - the ability for a defender to come into attack, and a forward to drop back into defence is crucial, not only to keep the opposition guessing, but also to create the impression of an advancing unit, and (and here is where Michels and I agree) to manipulate the shape of the pitch.

Final Thoughts

A philosophy of exactitude creates a team; a unit - they all carry out largely the same duties (in both attacking and defending). It allows for a system, of which new players can come in at ease. It creates a beautiful contradiction: one must be direct, but also patient (for the final ball). And it also allows for maximum fitness levels. When off the ball squeeze the space; press. When on the ball, slow the game down, and then speed it up again. The back four in a system of exactitude should be great passers of the ball. In essence, the roles are completely reversed. The midfield and attack do all the pressing, hounding to get the ball back. The ball is then placed back to the back four, who can pass the ball around whilst the midfield either regain energy or create space. Then it's all about timing. Quick passing and moving up the pitch, and a goal is scored.

Direct play has gotten a lot of (correct) bad press in the past. But I argue that that was not direct football. The aforementioned, in my view, is direct football, and it's not a bad thing at all.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 05:41:30 pm by James Mac »

Offline TSC

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13747 on: February 18, 2011, 11:40:46 pm »
I got bored today so wrote up my thoughts on football. It's all pretty abstract and a bit all-over-the-place, but I think there are some nice ideas there that could be discussed. Also I haven't spell-checked (am going to a lecture now) but I hope you can all over-look any errors.




That's some micro analysis.  As you say you must have been bored.  Do you not think that generally if you've 11 players who are better than their 11 counterparts then they'll win more often than not?

I know this simplistic view lends nowt to this micro analysis in this thread of the game like. 

But really it is a simple game.  It's only football.

Offline kaz1983

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13748 on: February 19, 2011, 07:27:17 am »
Quote
Under Dalglish the Reds have morphed into a 4-5-1 which becomes a 4-3-3 in attack (possibly in part, due to the influence of coach Steve Clark, who was at Chelsea when Mourinho used this system)



How are our two big winter signings going to operate?

Andy Carroll

We don't know what role Carrol will serve in this in look Liverpool side,  after all we have just signed on deadline day and Kenny hasn't had the chance of having a full preseason to prepare.

What I'm fairly certain is - Andy Carrol's role is going to not just assist Luis Suarez -no his role is going to have a bigger to play than most expect.

At Blackburn Dalglish used two mobile centre-forwards who were both good in the air, he had them playing alot more direct. He got them playing ball directly up to his center forwards for them to then knock them down for their strike partner or hold up so the attacking players can make their way forward and get involve in the attacking phase. It was Kenny Dalglish who signed Shearer from Southampton for £3.3 million, a new British record. Shearer was considered a risk and not worth that fee. The next season Shearer finishes top scorer in the league with 31 goals in 40 appearances. At his previous club Southampton scored a total of 23 goals from 118 appearances. Shearer was recently quoted as saying:

Quote
"Kenny will work with him every single day and pass on tips that he passed on to myself."

"He's going there with a great manager who I'm sure will get the very best out of him."

"I'd spoken to Kenny many months ago, even before he was in at Liverpool, and spoken to him about the potential of Andy Carroll."

So it seems Dalglish, he has had his eyes set on him before he took the job, it wasn't a knee jerk signing to calm the fans down but signed for a reason and with a clearly marked role in the team -even though we don't know what that is yet... Dalglish did not sign Carrol out of desperation and him being the only option, like has be said to me anyway... yes Dalglish's head was turned by Carrol's performance against -we all were but that isn't the reason why he signed him for the amount, there were other reasons play.

I believe he's going be a big success and will profit off all the freekicks that Suarez will be winning -mainly due from desperation on the defenders behalf.

But is it even important how many goals Andy Carrol scores? I read this the other day...

Quote
Managers around Europe have all come to accept the idea that your best players should be positioned on the flanks where there is more space to do damage.  The centre forward therefore has become constructive by being destructive.  Every time they drop back and draw men out of position they free up space for pouncing ‘wingers’. In last yen years the art of ‘finishing’ has been in decline.  Because ‘finishers’ are now concerned with tracking back, finding space or passing, the final act has become secondary.

I see Carrol given orders to drop deep, being used as a deep lying forward.... if so, why is that so hard to combat?

Quote
One of the keys to tactical success is to break those patterns in a way that is advantageous; at its most basic level to overman in key zones.

If a centre-forward drops deep, he is moving away from the centrebacks who would naturally mark him. If the centre-back follows, he risks leaving space that can be exploited by wide players cutting in, or by midfielders coming from deep. But if he sits off, the deep-lying centre-forward has freedom, time and space either to pick his pass or to turn and run at a defence so he is arriving at the centreback at pace, which makes him far harder to stop.

I can see Carrol being a nightmare to mark, as we found out when we played against his old Newcastle. He's a big fella but can move when he needs to -he is 6 ft 5, it's seems people are at odds whether he's a porn star or belongs in the WWE... seriously though - playing as a deep lying center forward you generally have more freedom, time and space... the idea of him picking out a clever pass to say Suarez and co... winning loose balls sounds great and force the opposition to give up possession via important tackles, for example...



Newcastle 3-1 Liverpool: Liverpool unable to cope with aerial power of Carroll... by Guardian Chalkboards

"The main problem, though, was that Liverpool were simply unable to deal with Carroll. In open play he worked both centrebacks well, winning 17 of the 20 tackles he contested. Carroll created the first two goals by winning the ball in the air, but Liverpool also had problems with him on the ground."

This is Andy Carrol stats so far: 31 goals in 81 appearances for Newcastle... that's roughly 2.7 games per goal.

No matter what formation he going to be used as the perfect foil for Suarez.





Luis Suarez

"Luis is going to bring the place alive because he is a streetfighter," Van den Boog -Ajax managing director.

"My aim is to work, to show the fans how hard I am ready to work. I want to put in lots of effort, to show people my capabilities," Luis Suarez on signing for Liverpool.

"Dalglish is a manager and a person who I can relate to and he is very determined to make the team play with a certain image - the kind of attractive football that I want to be a part of."

"He was very keen to bring me here and if there is one person that was influential in my signing, it was him. He is very ambitious about the club and is confident he can lead the club back to the top. Now I am here, I do not want to disappoint him in any way."

Suarez on the influence Dalglish had on bring him to Liverpool. I heard it said that Suarez isn't a traditional striker nor center forward, even though he was claimed as the Europe's top scorer at one stage in 2009 (had his goals been worth more, it would have been Suarez and not Messi winning the European Golden Shoe that season, after scoring 35 goals in 49 appearances for Ajax)

At his time at Ajax they played 4-3-3 formation (like usual), Suarez showed he can play anywhere across the front 3. Not just there either, he played upfront in a 4-2-3-1 formation for Uruguay with Forlan tucked in behind him, on the right of Folan when Uruguay play 4-4-2 formation... basically anywhere inn the final third, and is at his best when out wide cutting in - more space out there than if he played centrally, also because he's a very tricky player and when you combine that with an attacking fullback -Suarez will be a masssive handful for any fullback, keeping him in his own half and due to the overlapping fullback you'll get central defenders getting pulled out of position... ohh aand  you'll get free space on the other flank due to the defence having to shuffle over to cover the central defender that go sucked out position. Happy days.

I recently read this, it's a few years old but interesting...

Ajax are still the flagship of the Dutch football. They still have swift ball circulation and in possession the enormous movement and dynamics of Suarez

That a complaint by many Liverpool fans over the last 5 years despite us beating teams like Real Madrid 4-0. Poor ball circulation in the final third and a lack of, off the ball movement.

Quote
Suarez lead the statistics for the number of goals assists in the Eredivisie with 7 assists, making him responsible for 22 of the 35 goals Ajax has scored this season in the Dutch league.

His willingness to drop off in the attacking third and help re-cycle the ball before then moving back into dangerous positions in the final third is great, playing quick one, two's in process - players like Suarez are always looking to slide through the killer final ball, always trying something no matter how  many times it doesn't come off... also as much as he can be a deadly finisher, he's a versatile attacker who will often involve himself in link up play - he's a player who likes to attack the goal while facing it, rather than waiting for the ball. You can see that on the picture below...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbKbyYG4ccU        Luis Suarez Vs Wigan Athletic (Home)

We have brought the of attacking player most Liverpool fans have thought we have for a long time. It's been said Suarez's game is very similar to Tevez, but when it comes to this part of Suarez's game -he is a bit more 'slick' operator... talking about operator's, I remember the quote about Riquelme when was playing he in Spain, it was a quote comparing him to a telephone switchboard and how everything goes through him - if Riquelme isn't operating properly and struggling to cope, so is his team... that won't be a problem for Suarez or him game but again playing Suarez as a wide forward, he won't have the pressure that playing in a central position can have - he won't have as much defensive duties out wide and more space not he really needs it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BifKi_dxxbs        Luis Suarez V Den Haag 27/09/2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qE0ncD5zWA    Luis Suarez V Roda JC 03.02.2010

I also like it that he is a aggressive and always looking for that edge on whoever our opponents are.




http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2011/02/01/alan-shearer-says-lfc-manager-kenny-dalglish-will-get-the-best-out-of-andy-carroll-100252-28092609/
http://www.jofh.co.uk/?page_id=129
http://www.cricketvoice.com/cricketforum2/index.php?topic=22968.0


http://liverpool.theoffside.com/premier-league/deconstructing-luis-suarez-v-wigan.html
http://www.totalbarca.com/2009/news/luis-suarez-is-europes-top-scorer/

Offline kaz1983

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13749 on: February 19, 2011, 07:31:36 am »

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13750 on: February 19, 2011, 12:33:47 pm »
"Mind you, I've been here during the bad times too - one year we came second." Sir Bob

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13751 on: March 9, 2011, 04:09:07 pm »
Anybody got into Jonathan Wilson's book-a-zine The Blizzard? If Issue Zero is anything to go by, this will be outstanding stuff.

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13752 on: March 10, 2011, 10:55:35 am »
This thread's dead lads n lasses - best leave it be. It's open cos it's useful to quote stuff from it from time to time, but really, it's important we keep new content going on to the main board eh?

Offline Grinners89

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Re: The (Level 3) Sanctuary
« Reply #13753 on: January 22, 2012, 03:57:05 am »
Great stuff by everyone here. I'm reading through it again, up to about February 2009 (page 70-ish) and there are some high quality posts here. Especially in regards to the 08-09 season.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: The Level 3 Thread
« Reply #13754 on: January 8, 2020, 10:39:58 am »
Bumped for the purposes of a rewrite.
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