Author Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!  (Read 105544 times)

Online Andy82lfc

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2960 on: Yesterday at 01:33:52 pm »
Well, exactly. I haven't ruled it out - if evidence appears, I'll change my mind. Until then, you have to go by Occam's Razor, which is that the referees are simply incompetent, something that's borne out league wide practically every week and which has been true since decades before I started watching football. I'm not the one who's going by what I want to be true and shaping everything in the real world around it.

Just out of interest do you think there is widespread corruption within the UK government? 

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2961 on: Yesterday at 01:36:46 pm »
Shouldn't you be explaining that?

Was it a foul under the rules of the game?

Let's say it's day one of the new season and none of this happens and - anywhere on the pitch - a player kicks another player in the chest

BEING HONEST would you

1. Say 'that's a foul'
2. Say 'that's not a foul'


Before this season, I think there wouldn't be much controversy to say if someone kicked someone in the chest then it's a foul.

I've said several times I think it was a penalty and that the officials collectively bottled it and then covered for their ineptitude afterwards.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2962 on: Yesterday at 01:38:58 pm »
I've said several times I think it was a penalty and that the officials collectively bottled it and then covered for their ineptitude afterwards.

That sounds awfully like corruption as the result of individuals conspiring.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2963 on: Yesterday at 01:50:31 pm »
I've said several times I think it was a penalty and that the officials collectively bottled it and then covered for their ineptitude afterwards.

So if you worked for an organisation to give a decision and then for 'reasons' didn't give the correct decision and then a panel reviewed your incorrect decision and said it was OK and then your manager got involved and reviewed your incorrect decision and said it was OK, how would you describe that scenario to an outsider?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2964 on: Yesterday at 01:56:10 pm »
So if you worked for an organisation to give a decision and then for 'reasons' didn't give the correct decision and then a panel reviewed your incorrect decision and said it was OK and then your manager got involved and reviewed your incorrect decision and said it was OK, how would you describe that scenario to an outsider?

Good process, boys.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2965 on: Yesterday at 02:01:39 pm »
Good process, boys.

:D


[/close thread]


:D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:09:52 pm by Andy @ Allerton! »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2966 on: Yesterday at 03:17:28 pm »
Just a reminder on what the actual LAW says (the bolded bit is very relevant as Mac turns his back due to the incoming boot) :-

Playing in a dangerous manner is any action that, while trying to play the ball, threatens injury to someone (including the player themself) and includes preventing a nearby opponent from playing the ball for fear of injury.

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2967 on: Yesterday at 04:14:16 pm »
Another example of the key incidents panel showing their independence.

Steven Reid was one of the 5 ex-players and managers who was on the key incidents panel last season before taking up a coaching role with Forest. His view of Tierney and referees.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/steve-reid-nottingham-forest-liverpool-32451848
Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid has escaped with a £5,000 fine and two game touchline ban despite an extraordinary foul-mouthed outburst at a referee.

Incredibly, Reid denied the charge, despite two witnesses backing up referee Paul Tierney, who said he was called a “c***” three times after Liverpool’s controversial late win at the City Ground on March 2 this year.

An independent commission into the case was told that Reid said: “It’s the same every week, you c***. I worked with you f***ing lot every f***ing week last season. It’s the same every f***ing week you c***.”
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2968 on: Yesterday at 04:21:39 pm »
That sounds awfully like corruption as the result of individuals conspiring.



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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2969 on: Yesterday at 04:35:07 pm »
Another example of the key incidents panel showing their independence.

Steven Reid was one of the 5 ex-players and managers who was on the key incidents panel last season before taking up a coaching role with Forest. His view of Tierney and referees.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/steve-reid-nottingham-forest-liverpool-32451848
Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid has escaped with a £5,000 fine and two game touchline ban despite an extraordinary foul-mouthed outburst at a referee.

Incredibly, Reid denied the charge, despite two witnesses backing up referee Paul Tierney, who said he was called a “c***” three times after Liverpool’s controversial late win at the City Ground on March 2 this year.

An independent commission into the case was told that Reid said: “It’s the same every week, you c***. I worked with you f***ing lot every f***ing week last season. It’s the same every f***ing week you c***.”

Imagine the reaction if it was Klopp that did that...
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2970 on: Yesterday at 04:38:25 pm »
Imagine the reaction if it was Klopp that did that...

It is the 4th time in 18 months that Forest has faced a sanction for surrounding a referee. Klopp burps and it was his fault an official got abused that weekend in a Sunday League game.
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Offline alonsoisared

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2971 on: Yesterday at 04:57:03 pm »
I was just coming here to quote that as an example of the pretty awful behaviour that this recent trend of every club genuinely believing all the refs are against them causes. This is from the assistant ref on the day.

"After the final whistle while we were leaving the field of play, we were approached by
Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid. Reid made several comments regarding our
integrity as a group of officials. Reid made a comment calling Paul a “c*nt” at least
three times. Also after being shown the red card he continued to make comments about
the PGMOL making reference to the group of referees being against his club”

We can add Nottingham Forest to the growing list of clubs who believe PGMOL are corrupt/biased against them for whatever reasons they have convinced themselves of. The fact it's coming from an actual member of staff is alarming.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2972 on: Yesterday at 04:58:57 pm »
Sorry but that is quite frankly hilarious.

Do you know who the Independent panel are?

They are former England goalkeeper Robert Green; former England striker Karen Carney; former Republic of Ireland striker Jonathan Walters; his fellow former Ireland international Steven Reid, most recently a coach at Nottingham Forest; and former coach and Wimbledon manager Terry Burton.

Hi mate, where is this from? Was trying to find some information about who the independent panel were but was unsuccessful. Also thought there were former officials on the panel?
We have to change from doubter to believer. Now.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2973 on: Yesterday at 05:12:34 pm »
Hi mate, where is this from? Was trying to find some information about who the independent panel were but was unsuccessful. Also thought there were former officials on the panel?

I don't want to post links but the names were revealed last season by the Fail and Torygraph.

There are 5 ex-players, and managers with three selected for each panel. The panel then has two additional members a representative of PGMOL and a representative of the Premier League. So the PGMOL representative is almost certainly an ex-official.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2974 on: Yesterday at 05:14:39 pm »
I don't want to post links but the names were revealed last season by the Fail and Torygraph.

There are 5 ex-players, and managers with three selected for each panel. The panel then has two additional members a representative of PGMOL and a representative of the Premier League. So the PGMOL representative is almost certainly an ex-official.

Seeing Karen Carneys name on there is scary, she's fucking thick as pig shit. May as well throw Danny Mills and Agbonlahor on it as well.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2975 on: Yesterday at 05:31:03 pm »
I don't want to post links but the names were revealed last season by the Fail and Torygraph.

There are 5 ex-players, and managers with three selected for each panel. The panel then has two additional members a representative of PGMOL and a representative of the Premier League. So the PGMOL representative is almost certainly an ex-official.
That is fascinating, I'm Irish myself and its well known johnathon walters hates Liverpool as a lifelong everton supporter...
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2976 on: Yesterday at 05:37:06 pm »
I don't want to post links but the names were revealed last season by the Fail and Torygraph.

There are 5 ex-players, and managers with three selected for each panel. The panel then has two additional members a representative of PGMOL and a representative of the Premier League. So the PGMOL representative is almost certainly an ex-official.

Oh ok, thanks. Assuming it's true, not exactly what I would hope for.

I'm not sure why so much stock is put in the independent panel - I mean it's good that there is one but at the end of the day, they're just people and we've all heard ex-players talk about the game, the majority aren't exactly the brightest despite having played the game. And we've all seen how baises still play a part. Ultimately, they'll have their opinion, it doesn't necessarily mean whatever they think shouldn't be questioned or discussed.

I think they, whoever they are, were clearly wrong about the Doku/Mac Allister incident. I don't know know if that's bias but whatever. The explanations given by VAR and Webb are much more galling.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2977 on: Yesterday at 05:44:14 pm »
I'm sorry, I have never ever in all my years of playing and watching football heard anyone referring to chesting or heading the ball as "coming in high". It was a blatant misrepresentation of the event and I cannot believe anyone would try to defend it with a straight face.

Yeah, I laughed when Webb said that. Never head anyone ever say a player has gone in high when they've jumped for a header or to chest the ball. It's usually said when the foot is high. Find it strange if anyone who isn't PGMOL would agree with that. Think VAR said it at the time as well. Think I've used the term 'gaslighting' more than ever recently, but it really feels like that.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2978 on: Yesterday at 06:01:59 pm »
I was just coming here to quote that as an example of the pretty awful behaviour that this recent trend of every club genuinely believing all the refs are against them causes. This is from the assistant ref on the day.

"After the final whistle while we were leaving the field of play, we were approached by
Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid. Reid made several comments regarding our
integrity as a group of officials. Reid made a comment calling Paul a “c*nt” at least
three times. Also after being shown the red card he continued to make comments about
the PGMOL making reference to the group of referees being against his club”

We can add Nottingham Forest to the growing list of clubs who believe PGMOL are corrupt/biased against them for whatever reasons they have convinced themselves of. The fact it's coming from an actual member of staff is alarming.

I think what is more alarming is that Steven Reid was on the inside working for the Premier League last season reviewing key match incidents. As he said himself he worked every week with the PGMOL. He knows how the organisation operates. He knows how match officials operate.

In life, you will get people or clubs you dislike for whatever reason. The sign of a fair and robust organisation is to ensure that those dislikes and biases do not influence an individual's performance. To put in place checks and counterbalances that ensure the organisation is as open and as fair as possible. A well-run organisation for instance has robust and clear rules that prevent conflicts of interest such as officials working for owners of Premier League clubs as a profitable sideline.

A well-run organisation reacts in the right way to criticism. It doesn't double down, close ranks and look to punish people who complain about an aspect or individual within the organisation. Above all, a well-run organisation admits its mistakes and looks to rectify them. It doesn't have Howard Webb doing a propaganda program on Sky looking to gaslight people.

I think it is almost certain that each club has a referee that takes a dislike to the club or even an individual player for whatever reason and subconsciously does not referee them fairly. That is inevitable and why you have a large pool of officials and rotate them to mitigate any bias or dislike. You also make it clear that you will educate and give the officials the tools to ensure they officiate as evenly as possible.

I think it is inevitable that some officials will dislike certain aspects of a team or an individual. The issue for me is twofold. Firstly LFC and Scousers have way more things to dislike because of generations of negative stereotypes being basically rammed down people's throats. Add in things like being anti-Tory, anti-monarchy, anti-establishment, and the typical background of the current officials and there are plenty of reasons why bias might exist. 

The second is the PGMOL's attitude of refusing to put measures in place to stop that bias. Instead of rotating officials, we get fewer individual referees officiating our home games. We get far more officials who give us fewer decisions doing far more of our games than anyone else. Above all we get Tierney who has clear issues with LFC and Klopp getting a third of our games this season.

For me, the PGMOL is a biased, corrupt, badly run, not fit-for-purpose shambles. Unfortunately for us, it has way more reasons to dislike us than anyone else and that is why we basically get fucked over more than anyone else. Everyone being on the end of bad decisions and Liverpool being on the end of far more bad decisions are not mutually exclusive.   
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Offline DarkOfTheManatee

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2979 on: Yesterday at 10:05:37 pm »
Although we'll never be able to know one way or the other how much it actually impacts the decisions of the officials/independent panels/whoever, I do still find myself surprised by how pervasive the casual anti-Liverpool/anti-Scouser sentiment is across the UK, and therefore wouldn't be surprised if people even subconsciously let it influence their decision-making in small ways that are meaningful in a game of such fine margins.

It's not always hatred. Sometimes it's barely dislike. But I speak to otherwise perfectly reasonable Fulham fans whose reaction to the Doku challenge is "Yeah, but you're always moaning about something", or Exeter fans talking about LiVARpool based purely on social media/MotD highlights, or Sunderland fans saying we're their least favourite club after Newcastle because our fans are "annoying". Often they don't bother trying to justify why they think that - it's just an ingrained prejudice that they barely even register.

So if ex-Stoke player Jonathan Walters, or Nottingham Forest coach Steven Reid, or Paul Tierney, or any number of people who has grown up absorbing that sentiment, is shown an incident involving a Liverpool player, it might be more of an internal eye-roll - "oh, it's Liverpool again, always the victims" - that influences their judgement rather than brown envelopes under the table or pure biased malice.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2980 on: Yesterday at 10:40:06 pm »
^

I think there's a lot in that, Manatee.

Anti-Liverpool (city and/or club) is pervasive in English culture for sure. Possibly British culture as a whole too these days. Reasons for this have been covered countless times so I won't labour the point there.

I think we suffer from the Reverse Halo Effect (Horn Effect) where negative traits are attributed to us because of an initial gripe individuals might have with us. Establishment lovers, monarchists, fans of teams we've beaten to trophies time and again. The list can go on and on...

Think of the Halo Effect. Example; we see an attractive person we really fancy. It's so easy to then attribute other positive qualities to them just because we like the look of them. This happens all the time. We tend to want to believe that those we find attractive are also really good, decent people too.

You see this in the media too. Media darlings are attributed with all manner of other qualities, and flaws are ignored. In football terms, think Man United. Absurd, unwarranted hype, whilst their truly ugly side is brushed under the carpet.

We, in many cases, attract the opposite. The Horn Effect, where negative traits are readily attached to us whether warranted or not. People naturally want to believe those they dislike, or are jealous of are also nasty, untrustworthy people. That's what sees people go strait in with jibes about thieves, hub caps, car stereos, victims, lazy dole claimants etc as soon as "Scouser" is mentioned. It's all pervasive within English culture. It's been drip-fed into the English psyche for decades.

Think how adverts drip feed into our conscious and subconscious minds. They work. They influence us. They influence opinion and behaviour. Well anti-scouse, anti-LFC narrative has been drip-fed into minds for a long time too.

Does this play out on the field of play the way it does in daily life? I'd be amazed if it doesn't.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:47:03 pm by Son of Spion »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2981 on: Yesterday at 11:12:42 pm »
I table a motion that it's been reasonably proven beyond a doubt that at least some of them are out to get us on a random ad hoc basis.
Amplification does not equal truth. 

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Offline darragh85

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2982 on: Yesterday at 11:22:48 pm »
So it's fair to say, Paul Tierney is a bit of a c*nt?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2983 on: Yesterday at 11:34:32 pm »
If a normal chest height is say 4 or 5 feet (ish) from the ground and normally feet are at ground level then…..
A player with feet at ground level is normal
A player with feet at chest height is coming in high
A player with feet at ground level and chest at chest height cannot be coming in high
It’s gaslighting and badly at that.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2984 on: Yesterday at 11:57:57 pm »
I table a motion that it's been reasonably proven beyond a doubt that at least some of them are out to get us on a random ad hoc basis.
I'd agree with that on the basis that people tend to abuse their power when they know there's no comeback. Refereeing in the PL doesn't seem to come with accountability. Not only that, you know your colleagues have got your back when you make outrageous decisions. Now that's a green light in anyone's book.

Give anyone power and influence and take away accountability, and the result is the abuse of that power. It's as natural as night following day.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2985 on: Today at 12:36:55 am »
I table a motion that it's been reasonably proven beyond a doubt that at least some of them are out to get us on a random ad hoc basis.

I think that is entirely fair.

I think it is also reasonably proven that the PGMOL have not put in safeguards to stop individuals having free reign to 'get' at clubs that they dislike. That is when it becomes systemic and institutionally biased. Especially when the organisation doubles down and gives 'some' of them even more opportunites to 'get' at clubs.

For me Klopp openly calling into question the bias of Tierney should have led to a fully transparent investigation. Whilst that investigation was in process Tierney should not be officiating Liverpool games. That is pretty much standard practice for any fit and proper organisation.

Given the number of officials in the select refereeing group rotation should ensure that any bias is mitigated. Instead of that happening Tierney has officiated as referee or VAR in 9 of our 29 games if you include the forthcoming fixture against Brighton. 
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2986 on: Today at 01:11:21 am »
So it's fair to say, Paul Tierney is a bit of a c*nt?
He is now known as "3cunt Tierney".
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2987 on: Today at 02:48:46 am »
He's once, twice, three times a c*nt, him.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2988 on: Today at 09:14:01 am »
Just out of interest do you think there is widespread corruption within the UK government?
Yes, but that's been widely documented and that's the difference. GB News getting preferential treatment while paying ministers five figure salaries, friends and associates being given vast amounts of public money through a Covid 'fast lane' to provide faulty products, an open door system between MPs and the companies they're meant to govern - none of those can be compared to anything on the record for referees. Maybe in Spain, but not here.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2989 on: Today at 10:26:20 am »
Just out of interest do you think there is widespread corruption within the UK government? 

Isn't this just strawman logic?

I would say that distrust in authority has emanated from miscarriages of justice and the conduct of politicians over a sustained period, but that isn't - in itself - evidence of widespread corruption in other bodies of authority. In fact, to proffer this as an opinion is to reduce a worthwhile debate to something more vitriolic in tone with disconnected grievances being used to justify accusations of malfeasance amongst football's governing bodies.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2990 on: Today at 10:36:09 am »
Isn't this just strawman logic?

I would say that distrust in authority has emanated from miscarriages of justice and the conduct of politicians over a sustained period, but that isn't - in itself - evidence of widespread corruption in other bodies of authority. In fact, to proffer this as an opinion is to reduce a worthwhile debate to something more vitriolic in tone with disconnected grievances being used to justify accusations of malfeasance amongst football's governing bodies.


Yes or no would be a better answer.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2991 on: Today at 11:29:29 am »
Yes or no would be a better answer.
Yes or no.

Happy now?