Topic: So Fourth Place or the Carling Cup?...

[mtpeters]

so we shouldn't try get fourth in case an english team who doesn't finish in the top 4 next season wins it again?

Yeah, apparently lol.  Finishing fourth at least gives you a chance to qualify for the CL.  Are Spurs heartbroken?  Yes, of course...any team would be, but they at least gave themselves a chance. 

This argument seems trivial at best, though.  How about just get back to winning?  You should strive to win everything in which you compete - CL, EL, EPL, FA, Carling etc.  Talking to some people on here, you'd think that winning the Carling Cup actually made up for our terrible league form.  If it wasn't Dalglish bringing the trophy back, would some of you have cared so much?

We weren't very good this season, and there were some "incidents" that surely didn't help our cause.  Finish in the top four, and give yourself a damn chance to compete at the highest level.  However, we live to fight another day... 

Top 4 > Carling Cup

[Not A Scouser]

I think the actual question is the Carling Cup and two weeks of Carragher's salary or 4th and the price of a new player amounting to (for example) Juan Mata (who will also be more likely to come to the club) if you make it out of the group stages.

I wouldn't want to go ten years without a trophy, but I'd also like to be a Champions League team, winning most of our games, rather than a mid-table side losing as much as winning, with almost no chance of ever getting back to where we were.  This also dramatically reduces the chances of winning future cups in the future.  For example, in the last ten years the only club outside of the top four to win the FA cup was Portsmouth, once.

[Live in the Now]

I want to win the league. Finishing 3rd and 4th are the best ways to progress towards that. It feels better to win a League Cup, and it puts me on a massive high, but ultimately, the grand prize is something we can only achieve by collecting the money that comes with finishing in a Champions League position. It's unfortunate and harsh, and I don't want to see us without a trophy for 6 years again, but I want to get closer to winning the league, little by little if possible.

[Alan_X]

100% correct, and your last sentence sums up the bizarre charade that seems to be the party line at RAWK these days.

What party line? Seems like there's a fairly even split of opinion on here or am I missing something?  If you actually read the posts in here with an open mind there is a continuum of opinion and no concensus among those on either side of what seems like a black and white issue.

So please, make your points but leave out the lame 'RAWK party line' nonsense.

[Solomon Grundy]

4th is nowhere though. Yes getting into the CL and trying to win it is great.

But I want to see a masterplan not just lets get into 4th and see.

Just don't believe that FSG will do what it takes for us to get to number 1.

You just dont get it do you? Aiming for 4th or above would just be a stepping stone. Finishing top four would bring in more revenue, thus attracting better players to compete on all fronts. Yes there are no guarentees in football that we'd win anything but, it would give us a damn better chance then finshing 5th and winning the carling cup.

[Solomon Grundy]

Anyone seriously saying the Carling Cup is better than 4th place (not this season obviously) is being incredibly short sighted and does not care about the future success of the club at all.

The thing is, I doubt we'd even be having this discussion this time last year.

[Mutton Geoff]

Ahh, the Sky Generation argument, how nice to see you again.

guess you lot need to read i explained my mindset,  read it again before you pile into with your pathetic one liners!

[kcbworth]

For example, in the last ten years the only club outside of the top four to win the FA cup was Portsmouth, once.

Lol, in that same period, at least 2 teams from outside the top 4 have won the champions league 

[Mutton Geoff]

I can’t agree with that reasoning at all. It seems like something I would have said as an 8 year old. We may have won more than Man U this season but do you really think that gives us any kind of bragging rights over them? They amassed 37 more points than us this season. Let that sink in for a second. Over 38 games they absolutely destroyed us. And they came within seconds of winning the title. I would take that ‘failure’ over a Carling Cup win any day.

Let’s put it another way – of these two choices, which one do you view as a more impressive achievement:

-   Our 08/09 league campaign where we finished in second on 86 points and were right in the hunt with 3 or 4 games left
-   Our 11/12 Carling Cup victory

Which left you more proud of and impressed with our team?

seeing as you asked you wont like the answer 08-09 we won nothing, you all seem to think nearly winning is good, first is first etc,
this last season we won something you may discount that your problem it is still in the record books and on display with all the cups !

So tell what makes you proud winning or being a runner up?

[kavah]

Last season the carling cup but next 4th.

[redmark]

seeing as you asked you wont like the answer 08-09 we won nothing, you all seem to think nearly winning is good, first is first etc,
this last season we won something you may discount that your problem it is still in the record books and on display with all the cups !

So tell what makes you proud winning or being a runner up?

Humiliating United and Real Madrid within a week and getting closer to the title than any other time in the previous two decades. And playing the best football we had in years, to boot.

[kcbworth]

seeing as you asked you wont like the answer 08-09 we won nothing, you all seem to think nearly winning is good, first is first etc,
this last season we won something you may discount that your problem it is still in the record books and on display with all the cups !

So tell what makes you proud winning or being a runner up?

Can we just all agree that from now on in, we're going to try to do better than our worst record in 50 years in the league, and try to win the cups as well?

Edit: And try to get back as an English representative in the European Cup, a place that based on our record should be something we value highly.

[Red Cez]

seeing as you asked you wont like the answer 08-09 we won nothing, you all seem to think nearly winning is good, first is first etc,
this last season we won something you may discount that your problem it is still in the record books and on display with all the cups !

So tell what makes you proud winning or being a runner up?

Some of us aren't in it for instant success. We had improved to the point where we were genuine contenders for the title. It was about progress.

[kcbworth]

Some of us aren't in it for instant success. We had improved to the point where we were genuine contenders for the title. It was about progress.

Yep. How long since we won the league? 20 years? I would have thought that going forward, we would do everything we possibly can to make sure we win again before another 20 years passes, and really, the Carling Cup is far less relevant in that pursuit, than continuing to compete further up the table.

[Mumm-Ra]

seeing as you asked you wont like the answer 08-09 we won nothing, you all seem to think nearly winning is good, first is first etc,
this last season we won something you may discount that your problem it is still in the record books and on display with all the cups !

So tell what makes you proud winning or being a runner up?

No that's fair enough, if that's your honest answer. We'll agree to disagree. You had said something along the lines of people needing to re-evaluate their definition of success. I'll never share yours, personally. No hard feelings though, not trying to turn this into anything heated.

Years from now I'll still look back and marvel at that 08/09 team, the football we played, and the excitement as the season was winding down. It was amazing to be a part of a title challenge again. I rate that way higher than winning a Carling Cup, it's not even comparable

[Mutton Geoff]

Some of us aren't in it for instant success. We had improved to the point where we were genuine contenders for the title. It was about progress.

Good job your not into instant success isn't then, one challenge for the league in six years, with Rafa,  however he enjoyed winning two cups one of which he won because of previous manager got us in the competition, me I will take any cup we can get which should be the way to go for all fans!

Of course we could decide not to bother in cup games or play reserves and lose to Burnley, Northampton.

[kcbworth]

Of course we could decide not to bother in cup games or play reserves and lose to Burnley, Northampton.

Funny you say that. Personally all I see when I see the thread title is that it's ok to lose to Swansea, West Brom, Wolves, QPR etc in the league if we happen to have won the Carling Cup.

[Mumm-Ra]

What party line? Seems like there's a fairly even split of opinion on here or am I missing something?  If you actually read the posts in here with an open mind there is a continuum of opinion and no concensus among those on either side of what seems like a black and white issue.

So please, make your points but leave out the lame 'RAWK party line' nonsense.

It wasn't any kind of comment at the staff if that's what you were thinking. Although that said I haven't seen a mod agree that a top 4 finish is preferable to a Carling Cup win, from what I've seen the RAWK staff are all on the same side of the fence. It was just a comment on what I perceived to be the general consensus of posters on this site. I haven't actually read every single post since the end of the season and compiled metrics of people's opinions

[John C]

I can't understand how people can't appreciate, value and indeed treasure the fact that we had a rotten season on & off the pitch and we ended it with a trophy, which is more than everyone above us did beside Chelsea. Nobody on this planet wants the PL more than posters of this forum but as geoffstrong said look at 08/09 when we won nothing at all.
We can look at that year when measuring a managers capability and potential to deliver success but it doesn't contribute to our history, our continuing roll of honour and the articles on display in the club museum.

[Mutton Geoff]

Funny you say that. Personally all I see when I see the thread title is that it's ok to lose to Swansea, West Brom, Wolves, QPR etc in the league if we happen to have won the Carling Cup.

do you always make things up as you go along?

 It is pointing out that all the argument was top 4 being better than cups and the irony was fourth didn't matter in the end, something well explained in the OP, so where does it say people were happy to lose any game at all?

[west_london_red]

Super Fan/Auld Arse/Domestic Cups Vs Sky Generation/Top 4 seems to be the new Locals Vs OOTs.

[Red Cez]

  Lets see how he likes a taste of his own strawman BS

Good job your not into instant success isn't then, one challenge for the league in six years, with Rafa,  however he enjoyed winning two cups one of which he won because of previous manager got us in the competition, me I will take any cup we can get which should be the way to go for all fans!

Of course we could decide not to bother in cup games or play reserves and lose to Burnley, Northampton.

So Rafa was shit then?


                                                                                                                                                                                         

[Cormack Snr]

Tell you what. Lets win the Carling cup again the next 2 years. And have Spurs finish 4th for the next 2 years. And we will see where both clubs are in 5 years time. Yeah?

The short sightedness on here is mind blowing.

Spot on, makes me glad we have the Yanks in charge and not some of the a Win is a Win brigade who post on here.

[jillcwhomever]

Humiliating United and Real Madrid within a week and getting closer to the title than any other time in the previous two decades. And playing the best football we had in years, to boot.

Is that in the Liverpool museum for us to actually look at, along with the European Cups and the League and FA Cups?

[dazzler79]

Good job your not into instant success isn't then, one challenge for the league in six years, with Rafa,  however he enjoyed winning two cups one of which he won because of previous manager got us in the competition, me I will take any cup we can get which should be the way to go for all fans!

Of course we could decide not to bother in cup games or play reserves and lose to Burnley, Northampton.

Please stop preaching what 'should be the way to go for all fans'. Who are you to dictate how people should feel?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Is that in the Liverpool museum for us to actually look at, along with the European Cups and the League and FA Cups?

European cup - YES
FA Cup - YES
League - NOT YET

[JohnHobbes]

Is that in the Liverpool museum for us to actually look at, along with the European Cups and the League and FA Cups?

No, but it's part of the collective memory and spirit of this club. Taking on the biggest clubs in Europe and beating them easily and in great style. Don't you think we'd be a lot poorer without that? Not all memories have to be tangible and have a physical shiny thing to go with them to mean anything.

[trembles97]

Hey! Here's a thought. Why don't we try our best in all competitions? And not give up once the least bit of adversity comes our way? (ie losing to Arsenal and then dropping an insane amount of points to teams lower than us in the table ending our chances of 3rd or 4th, only to watch the teams above us lose enough points that we could have finished 3rd comfortably if we had shown a little bit of grit)

Sounds like a plan.

[Solomon Grundy]

Hey! Here's a thought. Why don't we try our best in all competitions? And not give up once the least bit of adversity comes our way? (ie losing to Arsenal and then dropping an insane amount of points to teams lower than us in the table ending our chances of 3rd or 4th, only to watch the teams above us lose enough points that we could have finished 3rd comfortably if we had shown a little bit of grit)

Sounds like a plan.

Need players with the balls to do that though first.

[Mutton Geoff]

Lets see how he likes a taste of his own strawman BS

So Rafa was shit then?


                                                                                                                                                                                         

guess you had better checking my posting history especially during his last season and get back to me, or you could engage your brain, did I say that?

[hide5seek]

4th always beats the carling cup in my eyes (understand why to others its other way round though) I'm more concerned that we're going to sack a manager if he doesnt get top 4 in his first season.

[Red Cez]

guess you had better checking my posting history especially during his last season and get back to me, or you could engage your brain, did I say that?

You need to have a much closer look at my post.

[Mutton Geoff]

 

Please stop preaching what 'should be the way to go for all fans'. Who are you to dictate how people should feel?

oh another!

 it was a reply to a question, people in here really should read before they jump in with the childish retorts!

[Alan_X]

Can we just all agree that from now on in, we're going to try to do better than our worst record in 50 years in the league, and try to win the cups as well?

Edit: And try to get back as an English representative in the European Cup, a place that based on our record should be something we value highly.

Glad you've come round to my way of thinking - I was agreed on that anyway. And that's the irony - those who want to 'win shiny stuff' include the league and the European cup in the list of trophies we want to win. We don't want to be mid table. We don't want mediocrity.

On the other hand there are people who have been happily shitting all over the 'lesser' trophies from a great height as if they are somehow beneath Liverpool Football Club.

It's about attitude. Our owners should set targets of winning trophies and accept that to do that regularly on a long term basis you sometimes suffer short term disappointments. They should not sack managers simply for not getting a top four position.

I would even have accepted Kenny being sacked if there was a coherent long term vision for the club. I really don't know what that is at the moment. What are FSG's targets and how will we know when they fail on their own terms?

[mikey_LFC]

How about a new question for next season ....   

Champions League Qualification or the Europa League?

For me the Europa League.

Glad you've come round to my way of thinking - I was agreed on that anyway. And that's the irony - those who want to 'win shiny stuff' include the league and the European cup in the list of trophies we want to win. We don't want to be mid table. We don't want mediocrity.

On the other hand there are people who have been happily shitting all over the 'lesser' trophies from a great height as if they are somehow beneath Liverpool Football Club.

It's about attitude. Our owners should set targets of winning trophies and accept that to do that regularly on a long term basis you sometimes suffer short term disappointments. They should not sack managers simply for not getting a top four position.

I would even have accepted Kenny being sacked if there was a coherent long term vision for the club. I really don't know what that is at the moment. What are FSG's targets and how will we know when they fail on their own terms?

Spot on.

[scoresagain]

guess you lot need to read i explained my mindset,  read it again before you pile into with your pathetic one liners!

I read it, I don't have anything against it. I took exception with the fact that, yet again, you are saying an opinion is linked to your age and generation or whether you where brought up waiting for the yellow ticker. Surely you can explain your mindset without mentioning them?

[helmboy_nige]

There was something in the TAW podcast earlier that mentioned the CL revenue going up.  I dug around and there were some articles claiming rises of perhaps 20% in TV revenue.  The gap between clubs in the CL and outside it is growing constantly.  No parachute payments for dropping out of this 'super-league'.

We need to get back in there and if, in the short term, it means giving the league priority then that's fine with me.  If the long term strategy is to ignore the cups in favour of always being in the CL then I'd have a problem with it.

[L666KOP]

I'd swap this years Carling cup for the champions league next year, annoying music, and I hate that pissing about with the 'starball flag' before each game, but fuck me I miss it.
I hate watching other clubs play in a competition we used to tear up almost every season when Rafa was here.

I hate that we buy Downing and Adam, whilst the others are buying Mata, Van der Vaart, Aguero etc.

To compete on a regular basis for trophies you need to attract the best players, and to buy the best palyers you need money, and the real money is in the Champions league, you can dress the fucking Carling cup up as much as you like but players will come because we play in the champions league, not 'cos we won last seasons Carling cup.

And if we persist with this nonsense of 'we only want players that want to play for Liverpool' nonsense we'll be forever in the shadow of the top 4.

Even fucking Suarez was conned into joining us, he's even said he thought he'd be partnering Torres, and it was a suprise when he left before I officially joined.

[mactifosi]

Maybe I am old fashioned I thought the club existed to win trophies.
If the aim is just a nice balance sheet and a nice marketing image, I really don't see any point in me travelling thousands of miles and spending my money on the club.
I'll save my money for my family instead.

A big no thank you, to being Arsenal mark II, just competing as H+G envisioned to maintain the revenue streams is not enough.

Being an Arsenal supporter must feel like a woman who saves her virginity for her wedding night, only to be constantly gilted at the altar.

[thejbs]

There's no reason why we shouldn't be challenging for the top 4 places but also able to win a domestic or european trophy.  8th isn't good enough.  No Carling cup can gloss over that.  Its the sort of season you'd be happy with if you're Fulham, West Brom or Sunderland. 

This is Liverpool football club.  This club should be in the biggest competitions, playing the biggest teams in europe and winning.  I'd have been delighted with a cup if our league form wasn't so poor but as it was it wasn't good enough.

Would I take a CL spot over the Carling Cup?  Absolutely. Why? Because it is the springboard you need financially and mentally to compete with the best teams.  It is an absolute must if you're to attract the right footballers (without paying silly wages). We'll never win the league if we're content with a season where we finish 8th and win the Carling cup.

To say 'the club exists to win trophies' is myopic.  How many fans will be content with winning nothing but Carling Cups for the next ten years?