Topic: Why we’ve been so mediocre and occasionally shit - but are deffo on the way back

[Timbo's Goals]

https://www.espn.com/sports/insider/soccer/insider/story/_/id/35488094/explaining-liverpool-chelsea-issues-season

Thought this was a good article,

It certainly is and those 50% additional energy sapping high pressure games [92 versus 60] identified in the piece really serve to pinpoint the strong likelihood for much of the striking contrast this season between the effervescent performances of Arsenal/Newcastle and the comparative lethargy of our own performances.

When you throw in our failure to replenish our engine room plus all the injuries - most crucially the seemingly crazy one to our by far currently brightest and most effervescent star - plus the massive psychological damage inflicted by losing the league to City due to VAR abominations and the Champions League to Madrid because of shite finishing and an inspired Courtois, it’s a wonder we’ve managed to summon enough oomph to win a single fucking game since August.

 

[stoa]

It certainly is and those 50% additional energy sapping high pressure games [92 versus 60] identified in the piece really serve to pinpoint the strong likelihood for much of the striking contrast this season between the effervescent performances of Arsenal/Newcastle and the comparative lethargy of our own performances.

When you throw in our failure to replenish our engine room plus all the injuries - most crucially the seemingly crazy one to our by far currently brightest and most effervescent star - plus the massive psychological damage inflicted by losing the league to City due to VAR abominations and the Champions League to Madrid because of shite finishing and an inspired Courtois, it’s a wonder we’ve managed to summon enough oomph to win a single fucking game since August.

 

The whole psychological aspect gets forgotten a bit in my view when looking at our performances this season (and also the one after we won the league). There are definitely other important factors that have a negative influence on our performances like injuries, lack of new players in certain areas and (maybe) aging players. However, what we have seen in recent years is that, if we want to win stuff or compete for the league with Man City we need players who are emotionally invested in the whole thing and therefore are prepared and able to perform on the highest level all the time and often go way further than what seems humanly possible.

We've competed for four trophies last season and while we won two of them, we ended the season with two "huge" losses. We "lost" the league to Man City after actually getting into a position where we might have been able to win it. Then we lost the CL final against Real again. While we still had lots of reasons to be happy after that season (we won two cups and we played quality football), it must be emotionally draining to not having been able to win at least one of the two "big" trophies. And then in my view as a player you just reach a point where you just can't keep going anymore. I think we were in a similar position after our league win, except that we got to that point, because we had basically won it all (i.e. the CL and then the league).

For me that's the big difference and the big disadvantage we have compared to Man City. They just don't rely on players being so emotionally invested in the whole thing. They don't need everyone to go full pelt all the time, because they're already starting from a position where they have a first eleven that consists of big money signings and when things aren't working out, they just throw their 100 million signing and some others who were a bit cheaper on and hope they can change the game. Not saying that their players aren't under pressure or not emotionally invested at all, but in my view for them it's much less than it's for us. It starts with the managers where Pep wants robots, whereas Klopp basically is emotion and passion personified.

[spartan2785]

The emotional aspect is partially why it is so important to freshen up the squad with new players.  Players who have not had the same emotional damage, who can invigorate those around them with a new way to play, or new partnerships.  We've ended up stagnating, this along with all the injuries we've suffered, the grind of playing so many high intensity (both physical and mental) matches, an incredibly short turnaround, and a terrible plan for the preseason, in the end it means we have the recipe for a shit season.  What frustrates me the most is not knowing how this will impact us in our ability to get the players that we require in the summer if we are out of the Champions League or European football entirely. 

[meady1981]

Football never ends.

[RedBec1993]

Although the vast majority of our squad have won it all with us, no doubt they would have been hurt with how the season ended, emotionally hurt and mentally hurt. The lads do give a shit. It’s a tough season for them all on the cusp of greatness and then all of it taken away within 15 mins and one goal in the champions league final.

[MonsLibpool]

The emotional aspect is partially why it is so important to freshen up the squad with new players.  Players who have not had the same emotional damage, who can invigorate those around them with a new way to play, or new partnerships.  We've ended up stagnating, this along with all the injuries we've suffered, the grind of playing so many high intensity (both physical and mental) matches, an incredibly short turnaround, and a terrible plan for the preseason, in the end it means we have the recipe for a shit season.  What frustrates me the most is not knowing how this will impact us in our ability to get the players that we require in the summer if we are out of the Champions League or European football entirely.

It shouldn't affect us because players will see one season out as a blip. I think it has more to do with the funds available. Other teams sign players without CL football or no European football. Chelsea signed Kanté after finishing 10th for example.

Using a lack of CL football as an excuse is FSG propaganda that the likes of Pearce will peddle.

[danscib]

No DoF meant we let the inhalers get old and didn't replace them in a position of strength

[tubby]

It's often been said that what Mourinho would do is squeeze every last drop out of ageing players, physically and mentally, before they couldn't deliver any more and everything imploded with him leaving the club and moving on to his next victims.  Feels like the same thing has happened with us, except this time the manager has stuck around for the rebuild.

I was never really keen on the 'mentality monsters' business either - was it more that we were basically the best team in Europe at the time and our quality was the main thing that won us the games and helped us turn around lost causes?  Not to dismiss the mental side of it, that plays a part, but it's not really doing us any good right now.

[MD1990]

I hope Klopp doesnt think everything will be fine with a summer's rest & we dont sign many in the summer

[Sharado]

Football never ends.

There is still everything to play for, and FOREVER TO PLAY IT IN

[markmywords]

I hope Klopp doesnt think everything will be fine with a summer's rest & we dont sign many in the summer

I think this is the danger behind presuming most of our problems are due to "psychological damage".  Other teams suffered late season heartache and responded better like LFC  1990, Newcastle 1997, Arsenal 2000, manchester united 2013

I think this is just fans trying to avoid the obvious and painful truth; that a lot of these legends are toast and the other teams in the premier league are deep frying us, removing the crust and having us for breakfast every week.  I expect sentiment influenced analysis by fans, but our contract renewal strategy suggest this rampant, reckless sentimentality is present with management

The drop off from previous seasons is scary, this has been the best LFC I have ever seen (since the 80's) and in the top 2/3 best premier league teams ever, but this season has helped convince me we were somewhat like the 12 yr boy that has a growth spurt, is the biggest in his yr and thus the best football, when others catch upto his height, his limitations become quite evident.  When we were able to essentially bully team with our intensity we were a rare force and used this to stop attacks from the opposition at source and create virtual counter attacking opportunities for our forwards.  This season similiar to 20/21 we are having to play more orthodox football and deal with more settled defences stopping us and more sustained attacks against us and our out of our element.  We relied more on counter pressing (to defend and attack better) so when we can't physically do it, we suffer a sharper decline than most great teams

If we suffered psychological damage, it was from games like Arsenal when team we used to beat, with a bit to spare, over run and bully us. I can imagine this causes us to subconciously start the next games at 3/4 pace to avoid running out of steam again, hence the early goals against.

[KillieRed]

Worse than shit: mediocre.

[Timbo's Goals]

Worse than shit: mediocre.

Duly noted. And acted upon

 

[KillieRed]

Duly noted. And acted upon

 

👍

[JackWard33]

Ryan O'Hanlon is a great football writer

The extent of how bad we are defensively is genuinely incredible - 1.5xg per game conceded is just trash ...for a club with our wage bill its almost inconceivable

[paisley1977]

Apart from Chelsea I don't think any other team have as many first player's injured long term as us in the premier league. That can't help.

[markmywords]

Apart from Chelsea I don't think any other team have as many first player's injured long term as us in the premier league. That can't help.

This is what can happen when you rely on players that have been playing at the highest level for over a decade.

[skipper757]

Ryan O'Hanlon is a great football writer

The extent of how bad we are defensively is genuinely incredible - 1.5xg per game conceded is just trash ...for a club with our wage bill its almost inconceivable

It's this part of the article.  Shocking.

"The same can be said about the defense because, well, it can't really get any worse, can it? Liverpool are allowing 1.4 goals per game, which is tied with Brighton for just eighth-best in the league. It might be even worse than that, though: Liverpool are allowing 1.5 expected goals per game, which is the 14th-best mark in the league and 50% worse than the Klopp era average.

And it could be even worse than that.

Opponents have been picking out corners left and right against Liverpool this season. They've conceded 26.17 xG this season, but when you control for where the shot ended up on the goal frame, that number rises to 32.42 -- the second-highest mark in the league. Alisson, however, has conceded only 24 goals from opposition shots, which means he has saved 8.42 goals above average -- by far the best mark in the league."

"Put another way, Alisson is playing like the best keeper in the world and Liverpool still have only a league-average defense, at best."

[KillieRed]

Is it attitude?

Is it mental / physical fatigue?

Is it teams just knowing how to play us?


The answer is probably a combination. All of it a massive hangover from *almost* being the greatest team of all-time. We are now broken and merely mediocre. I’ve no idea how to fix it, but trust the coaches to do so.

[stockdam]

I don’t believe that it’s a carry over from last season. We have a big enough squad to give players a rest plus we have lots of data to tell who needs a rest. Neither do I believe that it is psychological. Yes it must have stung to miss out but we had won quite a bit previously. Plus it’s a team sport so individuals don’t feel like they aren’t good enough.

So most of the squad have won medals recently and so their efforts were not in vain. Any sign of mental fatigue and there’s a player who can step in.

Chelsea have also had an awful season and that has nothing to do with tiredness or mental fatigue.

I firmly believe it’s a combination of many things. Injuries to key players haven’t helped. Age has caught up with a lot of the squad and you don’t see the same level of pressing. We used to press like machines; now it’s very sporadic.

We used to pin teams back in their own half and stop them playing out. They had little time to think and to pick their passes. Now they have an extra second or two and that makes all the difference. We don’t get to the lose ball as quick and that makes a big difference.

We have let midfield become very weak and we have been played through far too often. It’s down to fitness. Our players are fit but their fitness is limited by age. We have relied on several players who are now fading fast. That was natural as we had limited funds but now we have quite a bit of work to do to find replacements. Mane, Salah, Firmino and Fabinho are not easy to replace. VVD has lost some pace as has Henderson and Thiago.

Lastly, other teams have improved and know how to play against us and where our weaknesses are.

The big factor is a lack of investment in the squad especially in midfield. Our style was based around being fitter than the opposition and putting them under immense pressure. That no longer happens due mainly to age.

It’s not going to be fixed until we strengthen midfield and then replace the players whose intensity has dropped off.

[Dave McCoy]

I mean this has kind of been talked about to death but there really is no one reason for this. It's just a confluence of events that nobody in their right mind could have predicted that resulted in Klopp now admitted a transition has to happen.

-Established four midfield veterans turn into just one that can be counted on
-Mane replacement available for 50% of games
-Konate barely available
-Trent deciding he can't be bothered when the ball is past him until the WC
-Jota/Diaz long term injuries
-No youth step up until possibly now Bajcetic. Harvey has played "fine" as much as I hate him as a midfielder but he hasn't taken a step forward either

And that's the stuff we know about. Who knows what's really going on behind the scenes. I like O'Hanlon's writing a lot and he's not wrong here but how we got so bad defensively and as a team isn't easy to discern but clearly took a lot of stuff happening as it's pretty unprecedented in recent history.

[BornRedSince76]

My worry is 3-fold

1. Klopp thinks after a rest we’ll be ready to go again next season with the same players
2. We think that just buying Bellingham it will resolve every single issue
3. We have uncertainty around club ownership which undermines efforts to move the club forward

Either 3 will most likely mean another season of disappointment - not least because they are all interlinked.

[Timbo's Goals]

So interesting to read all the differing takes on what’s gone awry including those who don’t think there’s been an adverse reaction to the stupendous efforts and ultimate crushing disappointments of last season.

One thing that does surprise me is the fact that so little has been made in nearly all the posts about the absence this season of the player who effectively turned our season around when he was signed last January. For me, his absence has left a massive hole in our overall game play in so many ways and I’m sure his return when fully fit will see a very noticeable step up in our play.

[Dave McCoy]

So interesting to read all the differing takes on what’s gone awry including those who don’t think there’s been an adverse reaction to the stupendous efforts and ultimate crushing disappointments of last season.

One thing that does surprise me is the fact that so little has been made in nearly all the posts about the absence this season of the player who effectively turned our season around when he was signed last January. For me, his absence has left a massive hole in our overall game play in so many ways and I’m sure his return when fully fit will see a very noticeable step up in our play.

I mean, who on this board can even speak to that? Is there a lot of potential quadruple winners in any sport just sitting around here waiting to chime in? If we had at least stayed competitive regardless of whether we won anything or not then I doubt anybody would say anything. Yet because we've fallen off so hard we take Thiago's comments that its not physical, despite all the evidence it is, and say it's mental? I suppose he'd know better than us and should just take it for what it is but I also don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to be able to discern this. Especially when you look at almost any part of the online fanbase right now and nobody is seemingly ready to forgive for where we are.

[spider-neil]

The problems start up front with the forwards failing to stop the balls into midfield.
The midfield are then overrun with too much ground to cover.
The defence are then exposed with not enough cover from midfield.

I think people are deluded if they think the problems are solely down to the midfield.

[Draex]

My personal opinion is the backroom engine which was the envy of world football is in a bit of a chaotic mess, scouting set up, medical set up etc..

This lead to poor decisions collectively over the summer just gone, the two primary ones being not to refresh the midfield and the pre-season (v's the known shorter window and a WC in the middle) we embarked on.

City for example played 2 pre-season games v's our 6/7 and even they have around half the team looking leggy.

Such small margins of errors really, no big red flag but enough to throw us off our stride.

Whose at fault? Everyone! Including Klopp. The positive looks to be Klopp has done a bit of soul searching and his loyalty got stretched beyond the limit.. FSG just need to back him now.

[Dave McCoy]

The problems start up front with the forwards failing to stop the balls into midfield.
The midfield are then overrun with too much ground to cover.
The defence are then exposed with not enough cover from midfield.

I think people are deluded if they think the problems are solely down to the midfield.

The problem with this is we recruited or extended those forwards. Those players that aren’t doing a good enough job aren’t changing anytime soon.

[Red-Soldier]

It certainly is and those 50% additional energy sapping high pressure games [92 versus 60] identified in the piece really serve to pinpoint the strong likelihood for much of the striking contrast this season between the effervescent performances of Arsenal/Newcastle and the comparative lethargy of our own performances.

When you throw in our failure to replenish our engine room plus all the injuries - most crucially the seemingly crazy one to our by far currently brightest and most effervescent star - plus the massive psychological damage inflicted by losing the league to City due to VAR abominations and the Champions League to Madrid because of shite finishing and an inspired Courtois, it’s a wonder we’ve managed to summon enough oomph to win a single fucking game since August.

 

It is mate.  If I was in the team, I'd be stinking out the place too, for all those same reasons (Discounting the fact that I'm shite anyway).

[Timbo's Goals]

It is mate.  If I was in the team, I'd be stinking out the place too, for all those same reasons (Discounting the fact that I'm shite anyway).

Ha ha - shite maybe but fucking realistic mate. With a sense of Yuma too. The way I see it these fellas maybe top sportsmen but underneath it all they’re human beings who got fucked over at the very death after giving everything and they and us have been paying the price since then

[lfcmaster45]

Ha ha - shite maybe but fucking realistic mate. With a sense of Yuma too. The way I see it these fellas maybe top sportsmen but underneath it all they’re human beings who got fucked over at the very death after giving everything and they and us have been paying the price since then

Some players more than others

Big re-bulld in the summer
Not improving the squad in 2019 was a massive error of judgement

[Number 7]

The psychological and emotional aspect of failing to win the league and CL at the final hurdle does play a part but not as much in my opinion as others are thinking.

These players are professional athletes who get paid a lot for what they do. It's their living and what they have is what most of us can only dream of. If my performance was lackadaisical at my job because of a disappointment last year they would fire me. Of course, the 2 aren't completely comparable but my point is there should still be enough motivation to perform at the highest level. What we've seen this season is way below that. You're playing for Liverpool football club, the biggest club in the world. For one of the best managers in the world. Why have we looked unprepared for the majority of our games this season? Why has the long mid-season break had no impact on our results (where most of our players involved in the World cup didn't get to the latter stages). We've got worse after the break. VVD and TAA have just gone through the motions in many games and been the culprit of many goals allowed. At times they haven't looked arsed, just sleepwalking through games. Why?

Other players seem to have regressed. Fabinho, Henderson, Thiago, Salah have all lost a step from last season. All have regressed. They aren't purposely just playing below the standards we know they are capable of because of psychological impacts from last season. They actually look worse players, as if their prime is past them. Same applies to VVD.

I think these are all factors. And of course the injuries. We lost our best presser in Jota. We lost our most creative outlet in Diaz and we lost the player with the most guile and smarts in the team in Bobby. We were still winning the odd game when Bobby was in the team.

We need to go back to finding out who we actually are. What are we actually trying to do? We shouldn't be trying to figure out what our identity is in mid-January.

[kavah]

https://www.espn.com/sports/insider/soccer/insider/story/_/id/35488094/explaining-liverpool-chelsea-issues-season

Thought this was a good article,

"Over the past two years, Chelsea have played 122 competitive games -- more than any other team in Europe. (Liverpool are third with 117.) And since the start of last season, Liverpool lead the way with 92. Chelsea are second with 90, and then there's Manchester City (87), who haven't quite hit the same heights as previous seasons, followed by West Ham (85), the only Premier League team that might be having a more disappointing season than Liverpool or Chelsea."

"How direct the cause is, I don't know, but most of the teams that are disappointing this season have played a ton of games over the past year and a half."

There really is too much football, especially with the stupid corrupt world cup ruining the calendar for 3 seasons

[Penfold78]

I’m firmly in the psychology camp. Age is a factor but I’m not sure age is *the* big deal. Plenty of title winning sides have had ripe old veterans in key positions.

Pace, positioning, competitiveness, sharpness, strength, discipline. They all start with the head. If you are out of sorts mentally you aren’t pressing quite as well. You aren’t passing quite as well, you aren’t shooting quite as well. You aren’t working for each other on quite the same level as before. Across sports it’s very evident. Team GB invests massively in psychologists for this exact reason. Listen to a coach doing a track side interview at the Olympics. The first thing they talk about is whether their athlete is in the right head space before and during an event. Same in cycling. Listen to Cavendish or Geraint Thomas. Up top is where it’s at.

So what’s the reason for our mental malaise? The big push for the quadruple last year is one part. Another significant part is the player’s emotional buy in to the club: my opinion is the belief is wavering just a tad. Last season the players witnessed FSG show their hand on the super league idea and rightly two of our leaders, Milner and Hendo, stood up to reject it publicly. Since then FSG have, in my view, reduced their investment plans and looked elsewhere. Mbappe never arrived and perhaps now the players know Bellingham never will either.  So they get a sense of a plateau being reached, which generates feelings in stark contrast to the steady seemingly boundless rise to the summit they’ve had under Klopp. Hendo will look around the dressing room, as will VVD, Robbo, Bobbie, Trent and others, and think, ”we’re good but we’ll never be as great as the team we had two years ago” and, “I’ve won it all here, what’s my next step?”. That must really rob you of some of your faith in our future, in what our coaches says, to the new players even. And right there the team fabric just ever so slowly starts to fray.

There are plenty of things on our side. Klopp for example. He’ll have to build a new core group of disciples with a new belief in the future of the club but I think this is within his capabilities. Diaz is a standout exception, a bright new thing who’ll install belief in others that the team can be special once more, Doak and Elliot are potentially exceptions too. Allison is a world class keeper and we don’t need to worry about a rebuild in that position just yet.

I could go on, but I’ve made my point and it’s bedtime.

[kavah]

The psychological and emotional aspect of failing to win the league and CL at the final hurdle does play a part but not as much in my opinion as others are thinking.  ...

I do think what happened in Paris the result and the the terrible organization must be part of it. It must be, no one can live through that, with their family and friends caught up in it and not be affected in some way. Someone like Robertson for example said he was very worried, and then he got knocked out the World cup, he'd be a freak if he wasn't affected. And they've all had Covid during this intense period. We ask a lot of the best footballers to play at their absolute peak for years - some of them for close to a decade, it's remarkable really that they can do it.

[andy07]

Don’t buy into anything other than something badly wrong behind the scenes.  We don’t go from a 95 point team to a mid table team with young men psychologically drained because they only won 2 trophies or played twice a week for most of last season.  Injuries and lack of investment doesn’t account for how shit we are.  Something else is the main factor.

[BobOnATank]

Don’t buy into anything other than something badly wrong behind the scenes.  We don’t go from a 95 point team to a mid table team with young men psychologically drained because they only won 2 trophies or played twice a week for most of last season.  Injuries and lack of investment doesn’t account for how shit we are.  Something else is the main factor.

I'd say the problem behind the scenes is that, unsurprisingly, the players can see that Fab has lost a yard of pace and Hendo has lost a mile. Mo must run through them at will in training. An unathletic midfield in the prem league nowadays is madness and no matter how good the rest of the team is, you will be mediocre like us. I feel it is purse strings being tightened and only targeting the first choice transfers plus 2 windows of that not working for the midfield and we are therefore fucked. Up front we have been better and have replaced, we have done nothing in midfield and now need to catchup 2+1 windows in the next to be competitive again. 3 top class midfielders required.

[Garnier]

I have this thing where i wonder what my thoughts were in the past as things were unfolding and there's no better place to deliver my current thoughts on the team's demise.

The players are tired. They literally played every game available last season. And some of them have gone 5 years without a reliable rotational option so there's also that to factor in.

Pre-season was also super short.

We used to press everyone off the park, but from day one this season you saw Fulham chasing us out of Craven Cottage in that first half. The United game too was a huge red flag, random loose balls from 50/50's were cutting our defense apart, it was very uncharateristic.

Selling Mané was the right move, as was letting Gini go years ago, but their replacements haven't been up to much and that isn't so good.

There's no guarantee we'll be grand once again if we get a proper pre-season for next season, but i wouldn't shock me if we did. It could be that some players have finally passed their physical peaks and it'll be a problem to replace them. Maybe others just need a breather.

Come on just pick any random 5 games from last season and compare to every single game this season. That trademark pressing game simply isn't there.

Also FSG aren't great but they're not the ones picking transfer targets.

[latortuga]

Don’t buy into anything other than something badly wrong behind the scenes.  We don’t go from a 95 point team to a mid table team with young men psychologically drained because they only won 2 trophies or played twice a week for most of last season.  Injuries and lack of investment doesn’t account for how shit we are.  Something else is the main factor.

- Well we also have the 3rd oldest squad so it's hardly "young men" in the context of a football career
- It's 92 games in the last 1.5 seasons, which is close to 3 league seasons in 1.5 years!
- Add in the shortest post season ever

Logic says that what we've seen this year and the injuries we've racked up shouldn't surprise anyone.

[BobOnATank]

James Milner was 30 when we signed him, he was at best a 3rd choice player, probably 4th. 7 years later James is still the 3rd/4th choice midfielder for the club - thats the clearest illustration of the problem with the club and the midfield I can think of.

My above comment is laced with admiration for our Jimmy and how he can still perform in the prem league. For a club like Liverpool he should have 5 or 6 people in front of him at this stage, its the clubs fault we don't.

Tiredness is not an excuse, hell barely any of our squad went to the world cup!

[latortuga]

We used to press everyone off the park, but from day one this season you saw Fulham chasing us out of Craven Cottage in that first half. The United game too was a huge red flag, random loose balls from 50/50's were cutting our defense apart, it was very uncharateristic.

This point is solidified in my mind by Newcastle's performance this season.  Go through their squad and it's very average, with journeymen types and bench players who long struggled to get games.  Eddie Howe certainly deserves some credit, but what stands out is how much energy and intensity they play with.  They remind me of us at our best but with a lot less quality on the park.  So not surprise that they are able to produce those energy levels when they've played the 2nd fewest games since the start of last season.